Budget flights turn expensive
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...how does that expression go?...
"you get what you pay for?"...
or words to that effect!
Having said that, let me also say that in my opinion EVERY AIRLINE in the world should ban those BASTARDS who front up 10 minutes prior to departure and expect to get on board!
Let's also ban those BASTARDS who get on board and then take 10 minutes to stow their excess hand baggage in the overhead lockers while 200 pax cool their heels behind them!
A POX on ALL PAX.
STUFF THEM ALL!!!!
Hmmm... that feels better. Might go and have a beer now.
"you get what you pay for?"...
or words to that effect!
Having said that, let me also say that in my opinion EVERY AIRLINE in the world should ban those BASTARDS who front up 10 minutes prior to departure and expect to get on board!
Let's also ban those BASTARDS who get on board and then take 10 minutes to stow their excess hand baggage in the overhead lockers while 200 pax cool their heels behind them!
A POX on ALL PAX.
STUFF THEM ALL!!!!
Hmmm... that feels better. Might go and have a beer now.
Last edited by amos2; 9th Jun 2004 at 09:24.
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The family that missed their flight to NTL obviously didnt think about their fellow travellers! These late individuals contribute to many other peoples delays without a thought. Its not hard to organise yourself to be there on time. The half hour closure of the flights works well. I guess they shouldnt have debated over that last pair of Moccos and/ or stopped for the packet of winnie blues.
DM
DM
I’ve always said that airlines would operate a lot more efficiently by banning all pax. They clog up the system and ruin OTP. On the other hand…
Why is it that JetStar has made the 30 minute cutoff such a burden for themselves? Most other airlines while still using similar time constraints entrust their frontline staff to make decisions on denied boarding or otherwise depending on the actual circumstances (including OTP consideration).
JetStar didn’t invent OTP. But their way of dealing with it is alienating pax and potential pax. It also may indicate a lack of understanding of basic client respect and possible future consumer backlash. Some pax will always be difficult. But try as we may, no amount of beating them up will achieve the holy grail of getting all the pax to perform like battery hens. This is why airlines, as service industries, employ ditzy and the boys who are the experts in people handling.
Let them do their job.
When it’s all said and done, we should remember that the pax are the ones who pay the money that eventually fills our rice-bowls. And it’s real neat when they come back for a second bite of the cherry. It might be a good idea for JetStar not to scare them away.
(commander adama, Wrong assumption old bean!)
Why is it that JetStar has made the 30 minute cutoff such a burden for themselves? Most other airlines while still using similar time constraints entrust their frontline staff to make decisions on denied boarding or otherwise depending on the actual circumstances (including OTP consideration).
JetStar didn’t invent OTP. But their way of dealing with it is alienating pax and potential pax. It also may indicate a lack of understanding of basic client respect and possible future consumer backlash. Some pax will always be difficult. But try as we may, no amount of beating them up will achieve the holy grail of getting all the pax to perform like battery hens. This is why airlines, as service industries, employ ditzy and the boys who are the experts in people handling.
Let them do their job.
When it’s all said and done, we should remember that the pax are the ones who pay the money that eventually fills our rice-bowls. And it’s real neat when they come back for a second bite of the cherry. It might be a good idea for JetStar not to scare them away.
(commander adama, Wrong assumption old bean!)
I have just looked through their website and have found two references to their on-time policy.
JET SAVER FARE RULES
- This Booking is non-refundable. Cancellations at any time or failure to show up for the flight at least 30 minutes prior to scheduled departure will result in the fare being forfeited.
and this...
Arrive on Time
To help us get you to your destination on time we must get your flight away on schedule. To do this we will close check in 30 minutes prior to departure. We recommend that you arrive a minimum of 1 hour before your scheduled departure time to ensure you don't miss your flight. Check in will open 2 hours before your flight is scheduled to depart.
Passengers who arrive after check-in has closed will not be able to board the flight and will lose their seat – no refund or free transfer is available and you will be required to book and pay for a new ticket if you wish to travel.
I think it could be argued that if you can be found standing in the check-in queue then you have fulfilled your obligation to "show up" or "arrive". How Jetstark chooses to (mis)manage the queue is Jetstark's problem.
Qantas for example will call for passengers already in the queue to proceed to a dedicated check-in desk to fast-track flights that are getting too close to the departure time. Why shouldn't Jetstark be expected to do the same?
It might make some employees feel all warm and fuzzy inside by "getting back" at those troublesome passengers that turn up late, but to simply take the money and not offer a seat on a later flight (if one happens to be available) with an additional booking fee (wouldn't dare call it a penalty), is forgeting the fact that our industry is a SERVICE industry and we all depend on return business.
I know I know the rules are plain and simple (although I still reckon it's debatable what "arrive" actually means). It just seems to me to be rather short sighted. Might be good for business on the day in that it helps with the all important on time departure, but in the long term it might be counterproductive with their next airline ticket purchase and those of their friend's and family's going elswhere.
That goes for all of us.
JET SAVER FARE RULES
- This Booking is non-refundable. Cancellations at any time or failure to show up for the flight at least 30 minutes prior to scheduled departure will result in the fare being forfeited.
and this...
Arrive on Time
To help us get you to your destination on time we must get your flight away on schedule. To do this we will close check in 30 minutes prior to departure. We recommend that you arrive a minimum of 1 hour before your scheduled departure time to ensure you don't miss your flight. Check in will open 2 hours before your flight is scheduled to depart.
Passengers who arrive after check-in has closed will not be able to board the flight and will lose their seat – no refund or free transfer is available and you will be required to book and pay for a new ticket if you wish to travel.
I think it could be argued that if you can be found standing in the check-in queue then you have fulfilled your obligation to "show up" or "arrive". How Jetstark chooses to (mis)manage the queue is Jetstark's problem.
Qantas for example will call for passengers already in the queue to proceed to a dedicated check-in desk to fast-track flights that are getting too close to the departure time. Why shouldn't Jetstark be expected to do the same?
It might make some employees feel all warm and fuzzy inside by "getting back" at those troublesome passengers that turn up late, but to simply take the money and not offer a seat on a later flight (if one happens to be available) with an additional booking fee (wouldn't dare call it a penalty), is forgeting the fact that our industry is a SERVICE industry and we all depend on return business.
I know I know the rules are plain and simple (although I still reckon it's debatable what "arrive" actually means). It just seems to me to be rather short sighted. Might be good for business on the day in that it helps with the all important on time departure, but in the long term it might be counterproductive with their next airline ticket purchase and those of their friend's and family's going elswhere.
When it’s all said and done, we should remember that the pax are the ones who pay the money that eventually fills our rice-bowls. And it’s real neat when they come back for a second bite of the cherry. It might be a good idea for JetStar not to scare them away.
FlexibleResponse
I assume you are with CX like myself or maybe KA. You know very well how our outfits handle late check ins. They deny boarding. It is a well-known fact that port staff if they achieve a certain OTP are eligible for a bonus. If on the other hand they have a bad OTP because of pax boarding they get a bollixing from HQ. Reports for OTP aren’t just submitted by the port manager but also the captain in his CAR at the end of each sector. This makes it very hard to hide the cause of the late OTP.
Kaptin M
How does you outfit handle staff travel? If it is anything like ours we have to check in ETD – 60min if we list or ETD – 120 if we haven’t. If the loads are tight, we have to wait until the flight is closed to find out if we are on. I have found this is the case with QF, AA, AS, UA and others. Is your company different? Pawn Star seems no different to me in this regard.
Maybe we are all getting a little carried away with this obvious media beat up, after all this type of thing goes on every day with every airline in the world. If you are late chances are you will be denied boarding, period.
I assume you are with CX like myself or maybe KA. You know very well how our outfits handle late check ins. They deny boarding. It is a well-known fact that port staff if they achieve a certain OTP are eligible for a bonus. If on the other hand they have a bad OTP because of pax boarding they get a bollixing from HQ. Reports for OTP aren’t just submitted by the port manager but also the captain in his CAR at the end of each sector. This makes it very hard to hide the cause of the late OTP.
Kaptin M
How does you outfit handle staff travel? If it is anything like ours we have to check in ETD – 60min if we list or ETD – 120 if we haven’t. If the loads are tight, we have to wait until the flight is closed to find out if we are on. I have found this is the case with QF, AA, AS, UA and others. Is your company different? Pawn Star seems no different to me in this regard.
Maybe we are all getting a little carried away with this obvious media beat up, after all this type of thing goes on every day with every airline in the world. If you are late chances are you will be denied boarding, period.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
As well as the "show up" - which could also be interpreted as arriving at the car park 30 minutes prior to departue (we'll get to that one in a minute), with the INTENTION of catching the flight, your reference from JetStar also states "To do this we will close check in 30 minutes prior to departure."
Not "scheduled departure time", but "departure".
From this wording, I would imagine that those people inconvenienced to date by not being allowed onboard might WELL have recourse to legal action against JetStar, if it can be proven that the aircraft "Departure Time" was later than 30 minutes after they were refused check-in.
For a new airline that's trying to WIN customers, imo, they're doing a pretty lousy job!
To answer your question, Titan - staff in this company are treated as lepers. We are not allowed to list for the flight, and are only given a seat after check-in has closed (usually 30 minutes prior to departure). Although tickets are theoretically upgradeable "in the event Economy Class is full", check-in staff will upgrade pax to J Class rather than see us upgraded.
Similarly, although I travel with my wife and 2 small kids, we often find ourselves scattered.
I don't bother turning up any more than about 45 minutes before departure now, as it gives the check-in staff some sense of "fulfillment" having us waiting.
Flying on other carriers, I prefer to pay full fare - and then demand, demand, demand!
Not "scheduled departure time", but "departure".
From this wording, I would imagine that those people inconvenienced to date by not being allowed onboard might WELL have recourse to legal action against JetStar, if it can be proven that the aircraft "Departure Time" was later than 30 minutes after they were refused check-in.
For a new airline that's trying to WIN customers, imo, they're doing a pretty lousy job!
To answer your question, Titan - staff in this company are treated as lepers. We are not allowed to list for the flight, and are only given a seat after check-in has closed (usually 30 minutes prior to departure). Although tickets are theoretically upgradeable "in the event Economy Class is full", check-in staff will upgrade pax to J Class rather than see us upgraded.
Similarly, although I travel with my wife and 2 small kids, we often find ourselves scattered.
I don't bother turning up any more than about 45 minutes before departure now, as it gives the check-in staff some sense of "fulfillment" having us waiting.
Flying on other carriers, I prefer to pay full fare - and then demand, demand, demand!
Last edited by Kaptin M; 9th Jun 2004 at 13:12.
Titan 404
Yep CX for me too.
I’ve watched how we handle late check-in and also late boarding for many years at our airline. Remember the Manager OTP with the Italian name? He costed each minute late at around HK$3600. Also remember the 20/10 minute warning cards for boarding and closing the gate? Funny how all these management systems come and go over the years.
Late boarding always seems to be a greater problem to me with the associated need to reopen the cargo and unload sometimes nearly all the containers to offload the baggage for security. Then repackage the whole mess and amend the LS. Sometimes we can see the missing pax peering through the terminal window. I always ask the Traffic Officer what he would like to do as he is the expert in this department and this normally results in the quickest departure.
There are many valid reasons for late boarding including staff travel not issuing tickets until 20-25 minutes before departure due for example slow computer processing. The poor staff then has to clear immigration, security and run the length of CLK terminal. There are also gate changes, late connecting flights and simply lost and bewildered old folks. We also know that many pax get lost in Duty Free but, hey, the company has a finger in that pie as well.
I think with late check-in boarding may be denied, but the ticket can normally be reused on a later flight. Also I have seen very late check-in by first class punters waving wads of bills that caused our company to reopen the flight and dump the staff pax! I just love the pragmatism of Asia! Ah, the smell of money does wonders for the best laid plans of mice and men.
Yep CX for me too.
I’ve watched how we handle late check-in and also late boarding for many years at our airline. Remember the Manager OTP with the Italian name? He costed each minute late at around HK$3600. Also remember the 20/10 minute warning cards for boarding and closing the gate? Funny how all these management systems come and go over the years.
Late boarding always seems to be a greater problem to me with the associated need to reopen the cargo and unload sometimes nearly all the containers to offload the baggage for security. Then repackage the whole mess and amend the LS. Sometimes we can see the missing pax peering through the terminal window. I always ask the Traffic Officer what he would like to do as he is the expert in this department and this normally results in the quickest departure.
There are many valid reasons for late boarding including staff travel not issuing tickets until 20-25 minutes before departure due for example slow computer processing. The poor staff then has to clear immigration, security and run the length of CLK terminal. There are also gate changes, late connecting flights and simply lost and bewildered old folks. We also know that many pax get lost in Duty Free but, hey, the company has a finger in that pie as well.
I think with late check-in boarding may be denied, but the ticket can normally be reused on a later flight. Also I have seen very late check-in by first class punters waving wads of bills that caused our company to reopen the flight and dump the staff pax! I just love the pragmatism of Asia! Ah, the smell of money does wonders for the best laid plans of mice and men.
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Media beat up
Its a beat up plain and simple.
Time for sleepy old Oz to wake up and get with the real world.
In Dubai its 45 minutes and you have to be checked in before that time or you get bounced.
You turn up at the gate on time or your bags get offloaded.
Only have to do it once and I would suggest that the pax will never be late again.
Mind you, a proper airline would give you the next available seat if it wanted to keep your business.
I agree with Amos regarding the muppets that hold up the queue f***ing around whilst boarding.
Pax going to the wrong airport...yeah right
Time for sleepy old Oz to wake up and get with the real world.
In Dubai its 45 minutes and you have to be checked in before that time or you get bounced.
You turn up at the gate on time or your bags get offloaded.
Only have to do it once and I would suggest that the pax will never be late again.
Mind you, a proper airline would give you the next available seat if it wanted to keep your business.
I agree with Amos regarding the muppets that hold up the queue f***ing around whilst boarding.
Pax going to the wrong airport...yeah right
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Another way to look at it ?
Although Three people were denied boarding and were VERY unhappy, swearing that they will NEVER fly Jet* again, 120 people got away on time, more than likely arrived on time, and WERE happy. These will be the repeat customers.
If you can keep 120 out of 123 people (or howeever many) passengers happy, then this is a 98% happy return on business.
Personally I don't think that this is too bad. Show me another company that has 98% of POTENTIAL passengers happy ?
Hopefully this will have a knock-on effect to ALL airlines!
Although Three people were denied boarding and were VERY unhappy, swearing that they will NEVER fly Jet* again, 120 people got away on time, more than likely arrived on time, and WERE happy. These will be the repeat customers.
If you can keep 120 out of 123 people (or howeever many) passengers happy, then this is a 98% happy return on business.
Personally I don't think that this is too bad. Show me another company that has 98% of POTENTIAL passengers happy ?
Hopefully this will have a knock-on effect to ALL airlines!
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Blip -
JQ has different check in queues for each flight. At minus 30 the queue co-ordinator (dunno the exact title but they are out there directing the pax to each queue) ropes off the queue for that flight. That's how it was explaned to us in our conversion training.
JQ has different check in queues for each flight. At minus 30 the queue co-ordinator (dunno the exact title but they are out there directing the pax to each queue) ropes off the queue for that flight. That's how it was explaned to us in our conversion training.
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So, if you turn up 45 mins before and wait for 15 mins in the queue while a slow or new agent works through the line, it's tough cookies if you miss out???
Pretty poor I think.
However if you join the queue less than 30mins before, then it's tough luck in my view.
Pretty poor I think.
However if you join the queue less than 30mins before, then it's tough luck in my view.
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A question for anyone who works for Jet*.
If a pax is booked and travels one sector on Jet* which then arrives late at their destination and thus you are unable to meet the 30 minute check-in rule for the next sector do they still get bumped?
BSB
If a pax is booked and travels one sector on Jet* which then arrives late at their destination and thus you are unable to meet the 30 minute check-in rule for the next sector do they still get bumped?
BSB
the 30-minute cut-off may actually work positively for virgin, if all this publicity keeps on going about the 30-minute thing, dj pax will be turning up well before the 15-minute cutoff for all dj flights, which means less late, angry pax for them and more on-time departures.
That's an interesting concept ditzyboy. As apacau points out, if you had passengers unlucky enough that their queue was slower than the others for whatever reason (and there could be many), and they miss out by a couple of minutes, I'd be calling security!
It reminds me of how the management of the Qantas check-in in Sydney has evolved. For a long time there was one queue for each check-in counter. I used to observe passengers getting quite obviously annoyed if they were stuck in a slow line while others around them breezed through to the front of their line. Quite often it seemed to be not the fault of the check-in staff. It's just that some people had many pieces of baggage, or they were part of a group, or whatever. I used to think that it would have been better to have one line for each PAIR of check-in counters so that if one had a difficult check-in, the other would keep the line moving.
Anyway they've gone the way of Melbourne and Brisbane. There is just one big queue. When you get to the front you're called to any of the ten or so check-in counters - whichever one is ready for the next passenger. Much less frustration!!
Just for your info I found this website that has some mathematical formulas relating to queues. http://www.crowddynamics.com/Queueing/mathematics.html
So there is a mathematical science behind good queue management. I reckon the science of queue psycology would be quite interesting too. I know not much is said between queuers, but if you could hear the little voices inside their heads...
It reminds me of how the management of the Qantas check-in in Sydney has evolved. For a long time there was one queue for each check-in counter. I used to observe passengers getting quite obviously annoyed if they were stuck in a slow line while others around them breezed through to the front of their line. Quite often it seemed to be not the fault of the check-in staff. It's just that some people had many pieces of baggage, or they were part of a group, or whatever. I used to think that it would have been better to have one line for each PAIR of check-in counters so that if one had a difficult check-in, the other would keep the line moving.
Anyway they've gone the way of Melbourne and Brisbane. There is just one big queue. When you get to the front you're called to any of the ten or so check-in counters - whichever one is ready for the next passenger. Much less frustration!!
Just for your info I found this website that has some mathematical formulas relating to queues. http://www.crowddynamics.com/Queueing/mathematics.html
So there is a mathematical science behind good queue management. I reckon the science of queue psycology would be quite interesting too. I know not much is said between queuers, but if you could hear the little voices inside their heads...
Last edited by Blip; 10th Jun 2004 at 04:02.
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Will someone from Jet* answer clearly how the cut off works. I plan to be in line an hour before the scheduled departure and knowing the check in staff at the airport in question dont give a rats about pax I am doubting if I will get checked in in time. So if someone knows what the procedure is for assisting the pax who are doing the right thing, dont keep it a secret, speak up.
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Lets just remember that whilst the 30 min cutoof is new the loosing the airfare is not.
Both DJ and QF's discount fares (apart from the almost full fare ones), are lost if you are not there within 15 minutes.
And we at QF ticket cntr in the capital get a lot of DJ pax coming down to buy new fares
Both DJ and QF's discount fares (apart from the almost full fare ones), are lost if you are not there within 15 minutes.
And we at QF ticket cntr in the capital get a lot of DJ pax coming down to buy new fares
Evertonian
Ahhh, the dreaded "Anaconda" rears it's head again!
Snake queueing is probably the most flowing form of queue, I'm sure Jet* do as all others do & that is to call forward any punters in the queue for flights about to close. Ditzy, does that happen?
Snake queueing is probably the most flowing form of queue, I'm sure Jet* do as all others do & that is to call forward any punters in the queue for flights about to close. Ditzy, does that happen?
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JQ has different check in queues for each flight. At minus 30 the queue co-ordinator (dunno the exact title but they are out there directing the pax to each queue) ropes off the queue for that flight.
So, if you turn up 45 mins before and wait for 15 mins in the queue while a slow or new agent works through the line, it's tough cookies if you miss out???
That's an interesting concept ditzyboy. As apacau points out, if you had passengers unlucky enough that their queue was slower than the others for whatever reason (and there could be many), and they miss out by a couple of minutes, I'd be calling security!
I still don't get what the big hassle is to turn up on time. unless it's something like the cabbies blocking the airport again.
Pimp Daddy. If your interpretation of their queue management is correct well then fair enough I suppose.
ditzyboy can you or anyone else confirm how the queues are managed?
Thanks.
ditzyboy can you or anyone else confirm how the queues are managed?
Thanks.