Qantas FO's and SO's-Jetstar
Nunc est bibendum
Be nice if we could move beyond the 'you're a scab', 'well you're an idiot' type of discussion and focus on the real issues. Impulse drivers had a pretty big gun put to their head. As many crash comics will show, people do things that perhaps they wouldn't normally do when placed under extreme stress and without the full information. Lets move beyond that.
What has happened up until Dixon announced Jet* is water under the bridge. Yeah, AIPA should have been more on the ball a few years ago (and that includes all of us including the rank and file- notwithstanding that I KNOW that some of the rank and file raised the issue of industrial coverage for VQ and regional drivers with the then AIPA pres in June '01). We can keep saying 'aw shucks, we stuffed up, woe is us' or we can move forward and right the wrongs. We can make the company 'pay' but that doesn't address the real issue. We can keep calling each other names but we all know that if we DON'T get our act together that in ten years time someone will happen along and offer wages less than VQs and DJs. And then ALL of us curent crew are stuffed.
Let's get over '89. Sure, let's learn the lessons and never forget how and why it occurred but let's MOVE FORWARD from that for ALL of our benefit. What we need now are visionaries who are prepared to move ALL of our causes forward TOGETHER; not idiots who's first resort is to cast stones at the respective pilot groups. Fair dinkum I weep for the image of pilots in Australia at times. It's no surpise that the companies have us with our backs to the wall when we can't even discuss the issues anonymously in a civil manner.
Sorry if some feel I'm being overly 'righteous' and feel that may be 'pathetic'. I just call it how I see it.
What has happened up until Dixon announced Jet* is water under the bridge. Yeah, AIPA should have been more on the ball a few years ago (and that includes all of us including the rank and file- notwithstanding that I KNOW that some of the rank and file raised the issue of industrial coverage for VQ and regional drivers with the then AIPA pres in June '01). We can keep saying 'aw shucks, we stuffed up, woe is us' or we can move forward and right the wrongs. We can make the company 'pay' but that doesn't address the real issue. We can keep calling each other names but we all know that if we DON'T get our act together that in ten years time someone will happen along and offer wages less than VQs and DJs. And then ALL of us curent crew are stuffed.
Let's get over '89. Sure, let's learn the lessons and never forget how and why it occurred but let's MOVE FORWARD from that for ALL of our benefit. What we need now are visionaries who are prepared to move ALL of our causes forward TOGETHER; not idiots who's first resort is to cast stones at the respective pilot groups. Fair dinkum I weep for the image of pilots in Australia at times. It's no surpise that the companies have us with our backs to the wall when we can't even discuss the issues anonymously in a civil manner.
Sorry if some feel I'm being overly 'righteous' and feel that may be 'pathetic'. I just call it how I see it.
Bottums Up
Excellent post Keg.
From where I sit, AIPA hasn't wanted to take any pilots other than QF under their umbrella. BUT, they want those they won't represent to forgo opportunities that present, simply because the job is perceived as a QF job.
The reality AIPA, is that the job belongs to whom ever management pays. If AIPA want to protect their jobs, become a union or association of aviation professionals, representing all aviation professionals, then, you'll have the bargaining power to achieve your goals.
From where I sit, AIPA hasn't wanted to take any pilots other than QF under their umbrella. BUT, they want those they won't represent to forgo opportunities that present, simply because the job is perceived as a QF job.
The reality AIPA, is that the job belongs to whom ever management pays. If AIPA want to protect their jobs, become a union or association of aviation professionals, representing all aviation professionals, then, you'll have the bargaining power to achieve your goals.
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AIPA has been proven to be useless and ineffective in the last six months
Those who think this is too simplistic, ask yourselves what would have happened if we had had a single, united pilot group in 1989. At the very best, the situation would never have been allowed to degenerate into the fiasco it became because Ansett (and to a lesser degree, Australian Airlines) ‘management’ would never have dared to adopt the brinkmanship mode of management they followed to purposely precipitate what became known as the Pilots’ Dispute. At the worst, a united pilot group would have forced management to the negotiating table within days, and commonsense – on both sides of the table – may well have prevailed.
The only way we’re ever going to recover even half of what we one had is to follow the well documented but incredibly difficult path Dick Holt led the pilot group through back in the 60’s. To do so again today would not be impossible, (despite what many heroic individuals within today’s pilot ranks would say to the contrary), but it would be difficult, even with a totally united pilot workforce, which you only have to read this thread to see we do not have.
Realistically, it will be extremely difficult thanks to the large number of ‘heroes’ (and, from the comments of some I read here, wannabe heroes) within our ranks.
Unfortunately, thanks in large part to the mistakes made by the pilot group as a whole in the not too distant past, those heroes are with us, along with the potential heroes who see individual blacklegging or undercutting a group of pilots’ wages or conditions claim as a ‘clever’ way of gaining employment or a quick promotion, and management will take full advantage of this.
If we Australian pilots are ever to succeed in dragging ourselves from the industrial abyss we’ve sunk into in recent years, we’re going to have to form a united front again or be doomed to sink even lower until this profession won’t be worth pursuing. So, for a start, quite a few of us are going to have to put a stop to this patently silly “Impulse versus Mainline” and ‘my **’s bigger than your’s is’ rubbish.
PS: I hadn’t read Keg’s post when I wrote the above. I have to admit he’s said what I was trying to say far better than I did. Maybe it’s time AIPA sat down with the AFAP and talked (re)amalgamation. Everyone would have to compromise, but the end result would be an organization that represented us all, which would have to be for the better. I can’t see this happening unless a majority of AIPA members demand it.
Last edited by Spad; 29th Feb 2004 at 17:33.
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People such as spad are willing to point fingers at QF pilots, or Impulse pilots, or returnees or anybody in order to aportion blame for what some see as the "abyss" facing the Australian airline industry.
This may give him a warm feeling inside attaching such a simplistic label to an extremely complex set of circumstances - but achieves very little.
Attempting to emulate a strategy employed back in "the sixties" highlights how out of touch some folk are with business dynamics now at play.
QF is competing in a global market where capital flows from one business into the next across national boundries in a way that did not occur when the AFAP had centre stage. The industry in Oz could afford to run without the influences of the wider market.
This is no longer the case. Dixon is driven by shareholder return and nothing more.
The bottom line is that the industry is changing, capital markets are changing, passenger demands are changing and to think that pilots have a hand in stopping this is absurd.
This issue is much bigger than what union you belong to.
This may give him a warm feeling inside attaching such a simplistic label to an extremely complex set of circumstances - but achieves very little.
Attempting to emulate a strategy employed back in "the sixties" highlights how out of touch some folk are with business dynamics now at play.
QF is competing in a global market where capital flows from one business into the next across national boundries in a way that did not occur when the AFAP had centre stage. The industry in Oz could afford to run without the influences of the wider market.
This is no longer the case. Dixon is driven by shareholder return and nothing more.
The bottom line is that the industry is changing, capital markets are changing, passenger demands are changing and to think that pilots have a hand in stopping this is absurd.
This issue is much bigger than what union you belong to.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
A nice post, Keg - it basically says something that a wise old Captain said to me years ago, after I stuffed up an approach and had to make a go-around. My profuse apologies to him were met with the reply, "I don't drive with my nose stuck in the rear view mirror."
Good advice. Learn from the past, but don't linger on it to the extent that what's ahead of you becomes less important than what is behind.
Unfortunately Oz aviation was introduced to wholesale "scabbery" in the '89 Dispute. But to put things into perspective, it took the airlines some 5 or 6 months to achieve ONLY a 22% scab rate.
Putting that another way, 78% of the (4) companys' original pilots BELIEVED within themselves that they had a just and right reason in trying to have their employers reconsider.
Of that 22%, well over 1/2 occurred after 4 months.
I would imagine that any "inherent weaknesses" within QF would probably be within a similar range.
No comfort for a management who decides to take the group head on!
And so looking FORWARD, young Keg, my opinion is that you need to unify the QF pilot group.
In a word - INTEGRATION with all QF pilot groups, or at least a unilateral agreement between all the pilot groups as to how you can all "slot in".
As unpalatable as it will seem in the short term, I believe the medium to longer term advantages will be worth the short term pain.
I'm sorry to say that I can't agree with Spad, wrt amalgamating the AFAP and AIPA. Quite frankly, with my scant industrial relations knowledge, I don't see any advantage right now in joining up.
QANTAS needs to get their own house in order through the auspices of AIPA, and the Federation needs to secure the ground it has.
But that is only my opinion.
Good advice. Learn from the past, but don't linger on it to the extent that what's ahead of you becomes less important than what is behind.
Unfortunately Oz aviation was introduced to wholesale "scabbery" in the '89 Dispute. But to put things into perspective, it took the airlines some 5 or 6 months to achieve ONLY a 22% scab rate.
Putting that another way, 78% of the (4) companys' original pilots BELIEVED within themselves that they had a just and right reason in trying to have their employers reconsider.
Of that 22%, well over 1/2 occurred after 4 months.
I would imagine that any "inherent weaknesses" within QF would probably be within a similar range.
No comfort for a management who decides to take the group head on!
And so looking FORWARD, young Keg, my opinion is that you need to unify the QF pilot group.
In a word - INTEGRATION with all QF pilot groups, or at least a unilateral agreement between all the pilot groups as to how you can all "slot in".
As unpalatable as it will seem in the short term, I believe the medium to longer term advantages will be worth the short term pain.
I'm sorry to say that I can't agree with Spad, wrt amalgamating the AFAP and AIPA. Quite frankly, with my scant industrial relations knowledge, I don't see any advantage right now in joining up.
QANTAS needs to get their own house in order through the auspices of AIPA, and the Federation needs to secure the ground it has.
But that is only my opinion.
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Ahh, petes back. How is "Asia" matey. Thank goodnes you are here to tell us what is actually happening in the industry.
The initial post on this thread shows the arrogance of the seemingly " self elected reps for mainline drivers".
I certainly wouldnt want to be seen to be represented by the likes of these people.
The initial post on this thread shows the arrogance of the seemingly " self elected reps for mainline drivers".
I certainly wouldnt want to be seen to be represented by the likes of these people.
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oicur12, any reader of pprune over the years knows exactly where you stand on the issue of blacklegs, so your protestations at Spad’s rather temperate comments sound a bit thin to me. Your reaction is a perfect example of what’s wrong with us pilots as a group. Rather than READ what Spad said, you go into a kneejerk reaction (the classic “reload and fire” reply rather than actually listen that they tell us about in CRM lectures).
Everyone should take a look at what Spad actually said. I can’t fault his logic. The AIPA split from the AFAP was the first crack in the wall of airline pilot solidarity in Australia and no one should take offence at that assertion. The people who made that decision are all surely long retired by now, so why don’t those of us still in the industry accept this FACT, put it behind us and try to deal with the FACT that things have gone downhill for airline (and GA) pilots in Australia ever since?
AIPA is and always has been a company union, with all that that implies, and you only have to look at the number of AIPA leaders who have gone on to become management pilots within QF to see the obvious shortcomings of a company union.
I have to disagree with you, Kaptain M, and side with Spad on the question of amalgamation. I agree there’s probably no short term advantage, but maybe it’s time we all looked at the long term situation, or, as Sonny Hammond so wisely puts it, we’ll all be doomed to be arguing for eternity about whatever the current ‘big issue’ of the day is – among and against ourselves – as management sits back and rubs their hands together in glee.
… and as we and our working conditions go the way of train drivers – or worse – down the proverbial gurgler.
Everyone should take a look at what Spad actually said. I can’t fault his logic. The AIPA split from the AFAP was the first crack in the wall of airline pilot solidarity in Australia and no one should take offence at that assertion. The people who made that decision are all surely long retired by now, so why don’t those of us still in the industry accept this FACT, put it behind us and try to deal with the FACT that things have gone downhill for airline (and GA) pilots in Australia ever since?
AIPA is and always has been a company union, with all that that implies, and you only have to look at the number of AIPA leaders who have gone on to become management pilots within QF to see the obvious shortcomings of a company union.
I have to disagree with you, Kaptain M, and side with Spad on the question of amalgamation. I agree there’s probably no short term advantage, but maybe it’s time we all looked at the long term situation, or, as Sonny Hammond so wisely puts it, we’ll all be doomed to be arguing for eternity about whatever the current ‘big issue’ of the day is – among and against ourselves – as management sits back and rubs their hands together in glee.
… and as we and our working conditions go the way of train drivers – or worse – down the proverbial gurgler.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Perhaps an affiliation between the AFAP and AIPA would - imo - be more practical in today's climate, than the "1 out, all out" type of organisation we had prior to 1989.
My feeling is there would be greater personal pressure on upper management to resolve any serious dispute before it got to the stage of stopworks. Any individual company that had its services disrupted, or stopped, is immediately going to start losing market share to the competition, which will directly affect the bonuses of those who are most empowered to resolve the problem(s).
That is basically why I'm in favour of seeing AIPA, and the AFAP, concentrate on consolidating those under their individual umbrellas.
Sorry to pick you up on this one, Wiley, however one only had to look at who held manager positions (eg. RFM's, Deputy RFM's) in the old Ansett and TAA and you would find a swathe of past AFAP office bearers - it seemed that it was almost a tradition!
Without a doubt, some of the "slimebags" saw the Federation as their stepping stone to a Company desk job.
My feeling is there would be greater personal pressure on upper management to resolve any serious dispute before it got to the stage of stopworks. Any individual company that had its services disrupted, or stopped, is immediately going to start losing market share to the competition, which will directly affect the bonuses of those who are most empowered to resolve the problem(s).
That is basically why I'm in favour of seeing AIPA, and the AFAP, concentrate on consolidating those under their individual umbrellas.
AIPA is and always has been a company union, with all that that implies, and you only have to look at the number of AIPA leaders who have gone on to become management pilots within QF to see the obvious shortcomings of a company union.
Without a doubt, some of the "slimebags" saw the Federation as their stepping stone to a Company desk job.
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Soooooohhhh are you counting yourself as part of the 22%
KAP ?
You ought to.
I like the amalgamation idea between the AFAP and AIPA so that WEEEE ( he includes himself I suppose ) can exert pressure on management.
QF guys you had better watch out for " Red Necks " like Kap
He was one of the ones who's stand over tactics pushed everybody into the dispute. Yet when he tried to go back after
he knew it was all over ( nice of you to forget to tell those on picket lines Kap ) he was rejected because he had made a A--e of himself. Now a real man would accept that. Kap decides that he has suddenly had a change of heart after thinking about what he had" done to his friends, fellow unionists and their families".He tells us that he went and withdrew his application.
Everybody who went back thought long and hard about that for weeks before they went in, Kap. They spent their sleepless nights and tried to go against what they believed was the right thing for them to do. Having done that they accepted the consequences of the decision that they made.
Did you Kap ? No, you come up with the " I withdrew my application after I saw the light " and was rejected because you were , are and always will be a "Red Neck"
No professional comander ( as you claim to be ) would act first and think about it later when the stakes are so high.
You can't be a little bit pregnant.
Lets's not forget what you told the ground staff. "We are going to F---K 'em "
QF boys don't listen to the ravings of this lunatic because he will sink you even if it in some way just helps him deal with the grief that he made the wrong decision .
Anyone who is angry about 89 is not happy with the decision that he made and wants to blame others.
How about that Kap or should I say KRAP!
KAP ?
You ought to.
I like the amalgamation idea between the AFAP and AIPA so that WEEEE ( he includes himself I suppose ) can exert pressure on management.
QF guys you had better watch out for " Red Necks " like Kap
He was one of the ones who's stand over tactics pushed everybody into the dispute. Yet when he tried to go back after
he knew it was all over ( nice of you to forget to tell those on picket lines Kap ) he was rejected because he had made a A--e of himself. Now a real man would accept that. Kap decides that he has suddenly had a change of heart after thinking about what he had" done to his friends, fellow unionists and their families".He tells us that he went and withdrew his application.
Everybody who went back thought long and hard about that for weeks before they went in, Kap. They spent their sleepless nights and tried to go against what they believed was the right thing for them to do. Having done that they accepted the consequences of the decision that they made.
Did you Kap ? No, you come up with the " I withdrew my application after I saw the light " and was rejected because you were , are and always will be a "Red Neck"
No professional comander ( as you claim to be ) would act first and think about it later when the stakes are so high.
You can't be a little bit pregnant.
Lets's not forget what you told the ground staff. "We are going to F---K 'em "
QF boys don't listen to the ravings of this lunatic because he will sink you even if it in some way just helps him deal with the grief that he made the wrong decision .
Anyone who is angry about 89 is not happy with the decision that he made and wants to blame others.
How about that Kap or should I say KRAP!
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Here we go again.
An interesting thread get's hijacked by some idiot with the same old crap.
Some interesting opinions are being offered in a decent manner and in steps the Flying Ninja to launch a personal attack against Kaptin M, with the amazing revelations that we've all heard a thousand times.
New name and first post, but the style and content sound awfully familiar.
The events of 14 years ago have relevance to this discussion, as has been said by several posters. Why can't that be discussed in an intelligent manner without the personal attacks?
An interesting thread get's hijacked by some idiot with the same old crap.
Some interesting opinions are being offered in a decent manner and in steps the Flying Ninja to launch a personal attack against Kaptin M, with the amazing revelations that we've all heard a thousand times.
New name and first post, but the style and content sound awfully familiar.
The events of 14 years ago have relevance to this discussion, as has been said by several posters. Why can't that be discussed in an intelligent manner without the personal attacks?
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Stable approach asks
Why can't that be discussed in an intelligent manner without the personal attacks?
Perhaps because many of these attacks come from people still fuming and grumbling into their beers about somebody or other taking "their" jobs (that they quit), feining (sp) indignation and the affront of it all.
Long ago any form of rational discussion disappeared to be replaced by personal attack, vitriol and one eyed self righteousness. I'm not saying the views are not valid, just that they come across as the same tired old arguments and do not add to the clarity of the lessons that can be learned.
Human nature being what it is means I suppose that this will go on till the last of the involved depart.
d
Why can't that be discussed in an intelligent manner without the personal attacks?
Perhaps because many of these attacks come from people still fuming and grumbling into their beers about somebody or other taking "their" jobs (that they quit), feining (sp) indignation and the affront of it all.
Long ago any form of rational discussion disappeared to be replaced by personal attack, vitriol and one eyed self righteousness. I'm not saying the views are not valid, just that they come across as the same tired old arguments and do not add to the clarity of the lessons that can be learned.
Human nature being what it is means I suppose that this will go on till the last of the involved depart.
d
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I find it amusing how some of you guys still want to bitch about the impulse guys but then your pilot body is doing everything they can to secure one third of the future job positions at Jet*.
I would like to remind you guys that even if management approve the proposal for you guys coming in at the bottom of their senoirity list that the impulse pilots have the last vote on wether they want it to go ahead or not. So go ahead and keep bagging them and ruin it for the rest of the mainline pilots.
Lets face it, you don't need to be an analyse to work out that mainline domestic is screwed. Everyone can tell the reason why they are screwed is by their own making. The belief that only a Qantas pilot can fly a jet. What a joke.
The only way to better the situation is to get everyone united. Wether GA, regional, domestic or international all need the one banner. Strength in numbers, conquer and divide; we've all heard it before.
Lets hope the impulse guys can over look some of the crap that is written by only a few guys and see the benifits of a united group.
As for you P.Conrad you remain a tosser and it is you and people like you who have done the most damage to the industry over the years. Do the rest of us a favour, swallow your hate and die...
I would like to remind you guys that even if management approve the proposal for you guys coming in at the bottom of their senoirity list that the impulse pilots have the last vote on wether they want it to go ahead or not. So go ahead and keep bagging them and ruin it for the rest of the mainline pilots.
Lets face it, you don't need to be an analyse to work out that mainline domestic is screwed. Everyone can tell the reason why they are screwed is by their own making. The belief that only a Qantas pilot can fly a jet. What a joke.
The only way to better the situation is to get everyone united. Wether GA, regional, domestic or international all need the one banner. Strength in numbers, conquer and divide; we've all heard it before.
Lets hope the impulse guys can over look some of the crap that is written by only a few guys and see the benifits of a united group.
As for you P.Conrad you remain a tosser and it is you and people like you who have done the most damage to the industry over the years. Do the rest of us a favour, swallow your hate and die...
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Light it up - chill it out, or the left hand due to your own stroking will cause you to light it up - it's simple really, QF pilots do know how to fly a jet - they got there on their merits - not being the pilots that everybody else rejected. Impulse are there but by the grace of god - FACT.
As for the notion that QF pilots will ruin the culture at Jet* - well thats an intellectual comment isn't it???........ QF pilots could do one thing to Jets* - better it by making it safer.. FACT.
Still it's nice to see all you jaded into working for less and shafting mainline.Hope you can all hold your heads high.
As for the notion that QF pilots will ruin the culture at Jet* - well thats an intellectual comment isn't it???........ QF pilots could do one thing to Jets* - better it by making it safer.. FACT.
Still it's nice to see all you jaded into working for less and shafting mainline.Hope you can all hold your heads high.
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"A personal attack", on the great and powerful Captain M , the Wizard of OZ himself.
Never!!!!!
Don't forget he never passes up a chance to put in his BS. Fiqures of 22% of this or 78% of that or wholesale , what did he call it?
This Charlie puts himself on a pedestal and likes to comment and give advice on too many areas, industrial relations being his perceived forte'. Look at his industrial relations record , all spades!
I did not set out to hijack the thread, just to try and warn people about this looney. To put the Australian flag on his title is an insult to the country. It should be ... KKK
The other reason is because I work with this Gallah and I am just sick and tired of hearing this BS.
The best thing he can do is bite his tongue, swallow his pride or keep foot in place and not reply.
What will he do?
Never!!!!!
Don't forget he never passes up a chance to put in his BS. Fiqures of 22% of this or 78% of that or wholesale , what did he call it?
This Charlie puts himself on a pedestal and likes to comment and give advice on too many areas, industrial relations being his perceived forte'. Look at his industrial relations record , all spades!
I did not set out to hijack the thread, just to try and warn people about this looney. To put the Australian flag on his title is an insult to the country. It should be ... KKK
The other reason is because I work with this Gallah and I am just sick and tired of hearing this BS.
The best thing he can do is bite his tongue, swallow his pride or keep foot in place and not reply.
What will he do?
Based on the derailment of this thread you guys have as much chance of pulling together on a united front as the world has of seeing a peace agreement in the middle east. You cant even agree to disagree!
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
"This Charlie.....industrial relations being his perceived forte'."
Interesting - I'd always considered it to be tropical fish.
Anyway please continue, the therapeutical value obtained in releasing all of that pent-up frustration must be doing you some good - but not as much as you'd get from visiting a shrink.
...and after that brief interruption from our sponsors, we return to our programme.
Interesting - I'd always considered it to be tropical fish.
Anyway please continue, the therapeutical value obtained in releasing all of that pent-up frustration must be doing you some good - but not as much as you'd get from visiting a shrink.
...and after that brief interruption from our sponsors, we return to our programme.
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And you guys think your mature enough to command an aircraft.
As you can see I haven't been following pprune for long but if this is the level of maturity of our captains and future captains in the airline industry I am deeply concerned.
Any wonder management is running rings around you. I'm sure they are reading this everyday laughing their heads off. They're never going to take you seriously until you start behaving seriously and use your heads.
As you can see I haven't been following pprune for long but if this is the level of maturity of our captains and future captains in the airline industry I am deeply concerned.
Any wonder management is running rings around you. I'm sure they are reading this everyday laughing their heads off. They're never going to take you seriously until you start behaving seriously and use your heads.
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hay, your dead rite adar. sum of these clouwns carry on like secon grade shcool kids.
if wear gunna show manigers a thing and too we need to first a all show them wear professinals.
write on bro.
if wear gunna show manigers a thing and too we need to first a all show them wear professinals.
write on bro.