"JetStar" the name - 23 A320s ordered
Slightly off topic but I had to chuckle over Sunrise's consecutive scrolling headlines this morning.
"Report finds airports 'launch pads for terrorism'.........QANTAS to launch Jetstar in May......."
"Report finds airports 'launch pads for terrorism'.........QANTAS to launch Jetstar in May......."
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Anyone have any ideas what's going to happen to NJS in all this?
I've heard the 717's are going. Surely 320's are too big for some of the 717 routes. Perhaps NJS will take over with their 146's or with the new embraer which is rumoured to be their new choice of a/c??
I've heard the 717's are going. Surely 320's are too big for some of the 717 routes. Perhaps NJS will take over with their 146's or with the new embraer which is rumoured to be their new choice of a/c??
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Frontier in the US is an up market LCC operating the A320. I guess similar to Jetstar will be.
Cap first year pay Gross USD $84341 = 115795 AUD.
FO “ USD $37953 = 52105 AUD.
The highest pay rates after 5 years are 112502 (154443) and 67501(92665).
This is more than Jetblue 52000 (71389) (FO NYC !!!!) and lots more than Airtran.
This is an example of where the US is going with regards to new airlines where the lions share of pilots will be employed in the future.
Cap first year pay Gross USD $84341 = 115795 AUD.
FO “ USD $37953 = 52105 AUD.
The highest pay rates after 5 years are 112502 (154443) and 67501(92665).
This is more than Jetblue 52000 (71389) (FO NYC !!!!) and lots more than Airtran.
This is an example of where the US is going with regards to new airlines where the lions share of pilots will be employed in the future.
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'The Enema Bandit' asked "Does anyone know if Alan Joyces wage is low cost too?"
As Mr Joyce has just been promoted to the Executive Committee of Qantas, you can bet all you like that he is certainly not low cost. On that consideration, he would be in the top dozen earners. I would think $350-$400k plus bonuses at a minimum. Wages at the top of QF's other LCC also bear little or no resemblance to 'low cost' llevels like those at the coal face (pilots excepted0 are being paid.
As Mr Joyce has just been promoted to the Executive Committee of Qantas, you can bet all you like that he is certainly not low cost. On that consideration, he would be in the top dozen earners. I would think $350-$400k plus bonuses at a minimum. Wages at the top of QF's other LCC also bear little or no resemblance to 'low cost' llevels like those at the coal face (pilots excepted0 are being paid.
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Pilots are very good at comparing the salaries they make to the salaries made by pilots working for other carriers around the world. Obvious references are made to DL, AA and BA in order to garner support for the “poverty wages” being paid in Oz.
Lets keep that same mindset when comparing the remuneration being paid to Joyce. I guarantee it will be significantly lower than his compatriot in similar airlines in the US and Europe.
Lets keep that same mindset when comparing the remuneration being paid to Joyce. I guarantee it will be significantly lower than his compatriot in similar airlines in the US and Europe.
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Wed "Melbourne Age"
Cannibal offspring Dixon's only choice
December 3, 2003
Stephen Bartholomeusz
Even though the market has had a fortnight to think, it still doesn't seem to "get" Geoff Dixon's decision to launch a low-cost carrier and risk cannibalising Qantas. The new carrier isn't something he wanted to do but something he had to do.
There are two reasons why Dixon had to launch the new carrier. The biggest is Virgin Blue; the less immediate is the prospect that a third player would enter the domestic market.
If Dixon did nothing, Virgin Blue would use its considerably lower cost structure to continuously erode Qantas's market share and, by taking volume from the full-service carrier on its key routes, eventually undermine its economics.
A high-cost, full-service network carrier is, as the assault of the value-based airlines (VBAs) in Europe has shown, highly sensitive to losses of volume on core routes.
Qantas has to remain a full-service, twin-class carrier to support its international business, but without radical change it would be unable to halt Virgin Blue's steady growth and would risk being terminally weakened over time.
The second threat would, if realised, be just as potent.
Virgin Blue isn't a traditional no-frills, deep-discount airline. Part of the explanation for the ease with which it filled the vacuum left by Ansett and moved smoothly to 30 per cent of the market is that its services are comparable to Qantas's economy class. They are low-frills services rather than no-frills services.
That deliberate positioning slightly upmarket of a traditional VBA has left an opening for someone to attempt to exploit. Whether it is formula-one team owner Paul Stoddart or someone else, Virgin Blue's success would eventually have attracted a new entrant.
The last thing Dixon needs is a three-cornered contest against two discount carriers with significant structural cost advantages over Qantas.
Both airlines might make less . . . but that would still be a better outcome than if a genuine third party gatecrashed the duopoly.
In the wake of the release on Monday of the first details of the new carrier - badged Jetstar - analysts appear to be concerned about its potential to cannibalise Qantas's full-service business.
While Dixon will no doubt try to finesse the "competition" between Jetstar and Qantas, and it is likely a third low-cost carrier will grow the price-sensitive end of the market, it is inevitable Jetstar will hit Qantas volumes and economics.
As Dixon said on Monday, however: "If we are going to be cannibalised, we may as well cannibalise ourselves."
Dixon is nothing if not pragmatic. Virgin Blue, and perhaps a new entrant, will slowly kill Qantas's domestic business unless Qantas does something to arrest the challenger's momentum.
The massive cost-cutting and efficiency programs under way within Qantas won't by themselves narrow the competitive gap sufficiently - even in the unlikely event its staff are prepared to reduce their wages and conditions - because of the need to continue to offer high-frequency, full-service, twin-class services on the trunk routes.
Jetstar is Dixon's solution. It will take business from Qantas - but that business would have gone to Virgin Blue or someone else anyway.
If Jetstar's cost structures are competitive with Virgin Blue - Dixon says they will be at least as good if not better - the group will at least retain some of that volume and revenue. If it can grow the market for low-cost travel and, perhaps, also put pressure on Virgin Blue and gain some leverage over its pricing in the process, Dixon would be ecstatic.
Jetstar will be based on Impulse Airlines, acquired by Qantas in 2001 in the lead-up to Ansett's fall. That simplifies a range of issues for Qantas, not the least of which are its labour costs. Impulse already has an enterprise agreement with its staff that is similar to Virgin Blue's.
While Dixon has denied that the launch of Jetstar will displace existing Qantas operations or lead to staff reductions above those already foreshadowed, it does offer the potential to migrate some of Qantas's less profitable routes to a much lower-cost platform.
In any event, if he were destined to lose volume and the premium in his pricing anyway, he is better off keeping some volume and margin than handing it all to Virgin Blue.
The Jetstar strategy does represent a venture into uncharted territory for Qantas. As Virgin Blue delights in reminding Qantas, no full-service carrier has been able to successfully launch and sustain a VBA sibling.
Given that most of the VBAs have been launched in multi-carrier markets rather than within a duopoly, however, it isn't inevitable that Jetstar will fail or that the strategy will be aborted because Jetstar is too successful.
It is in both carriers' interests not to get caught up in destructive competition - it isn't in Virgin Blue's interests to destabilise the domestic market by attacking Jetstar too fiercely and lowering prices substantially and generally.
One of the hallmarks of Virgin Blue's short history has been the intelligence and discipline of its execution of its business model. It has focused on profitable expansion rather than attempting to win low-margin volume for volume sake.
If both the major players are rational, and Dixon manages the level and mix of capacity within Jetstar and Qantas sensitively and finesses the shift of volume to Jetstar from a group perspective, both Qantas and Virgin Blue can continue to make good money from the domestic market without any of the airlines being damaged badly in the process.
Both might make less than under today's increasingly positive industry settings, but that would still be a better outcome than if a genuine third party gatecrashed the duopoly or if an increasingly desperate Qantas were ultimately backed into a corner and forced into subeconomic behaviour.
There is no certainty that the Jetstar strategy will be successful. It is certain that without it, however, the survival of Qantas's domestic business will be under increasing threat.
[email protected]
===========================================
Cannibal offspring Dixon's only choice
December 3, 2003
Stephen Bartholomeusz
Even though the market has had a fortnight to think, it still doesn't seem to "get" Geoff Dixon's decision to launch a low-cost carrier and risk cannibalising Qantas. The new carrier isn't something he wanted to do but something he had to do.
There are two reasons why Dixon had to launch the new carrier. The biggest is Virgin Blue; the less immediate is the prospect that a third player would enter the domestic market.
If Dixon did nothing, Virgin Blue would use its considerably lower cost structure to continuously erode Qantas's market share and, by taking volume from the full-service carrier on its key routes, eventually undermine its economics.
A high-cost, full-service network carrier is, as the assault of the value-based airlines (VBAs) in Europe has shown, highly sensitive to losses of volume on core routes.
Qantas has to remain a full-service, twin-class carrier to support its international business, but without radical change it would be unable to halt Virgin Blue's steady growth and would risk being terminally weakened over time.
The second threat would, if realised, be just as potent.
Virgin Blue isn't a traditional no-frills, deep-discount airline. Part of the explanation for the ease with which it filled the vacuum left by Ansett and moved smoothly to 30 per cent of the market is that its services are comparable to Qantas's economy class. They are low-frills services rather than no-frills services.
That deliberate positioning slightly upmarket of a traditional VBA has left an opening for someone to attempt to exploit. Whether it is formula-one team owner Paul Stoddart or someone else, Virgin Blue's success would eventually have attracted a new entrant.
The last thing Dixon needs is a three-cornered contest against two discount carriers with significant structural cost advantages over Qantas.
Both airlines might make less . . . but that would still be a better outcome than if a genuine third party gatecrashed the duopoly.
In the wake of the release on Monday of the first details of the new carrier - badged Jetstar - analysts appear to be concerned about its potential to cannibalise Qantas's full-service business.
While Dixon will no doubt try to finesse the "competition" between Jetstar and Qantas, and it is likely a third low-cost carrier will grow the price-sensitive end of the market, it is inevitable Jetstar will hit Qantas volumes and economics.
As Dixon said on Monday, however: "If we are going to be cannibalised, we may as well cannibalise ourselves."
Dixon is nothing if not pragmatic. Virgin Blue, and perhaps a new entrant, will slowly kill Qantas's domestic business unless Qantas does something to arrest the challenger's momentum.
The massive cost-cutting and efficiency programs under way within Qantas won't by themselves narrow the competitive gap sufficiently - even in the unlikely event its staff are prepared to reduce their wages and conditions - because of the need to continue to offer high-frequency, full-service, twin-class services on the trunk routes.
Jetstar is Dixon's solution. It will take business from Qantas - but that business would have gone to Virgin Blue or someone else anyway.
If Jetstar's cost structures are competitive with Virgin Blue - Dixon says they will be at least as good if not better - the group will at least retain some of that volume and revenue. If it can grow the market for low-cost travel and, perhaps, also put pressure on Virgin Blue and gain some leverage over its pricing in the process, Dixon would be ecstatic.
Jetstar will be based on Impulse Airlines, acquired by Qantas in 2001 in the lead-up to Ansett's fall. That simplifies a range of issues for Qantas, not the least of which are its labour costs. Impulse already has an enterprise agreement with its staff that is similar to Virgin Blue's.
While Dixon has denied that the launch of Jetstar will displace existing Qantas operations or lead to staff reductions above those already foreshadowed, it does offer the potential to migrate some of Qantas's less profitable routes to a much lower-cost platform.
In any event, if he were destined to lose volume and the premium in his pricing anyway, he is better off keeping some volume and margin than handing it all to Virgin Blue.
The Jetstar strategy does represent a venture into uncharted territory for Qantas. As Virgin Blue delights in reminding Qantas, no full-service carrier has been able to successfully launch and sustain a VBA sibling.
Given that most of the VBAs have been launched in multi-carrier markets rather than within a duopoly, however, it isn't inevitable that Jetstar will fail or that the strategy will be aborted because Jetstar is too successful.
It is in both carriers' interests not to get caught up in destructive competition - it isn't in Virgin Blue's interests to destabilise the domestic market by attacking Jetstar too fiercely and lowering prices substantially and generally.
One of the hallmarks of Virgin Blue's short history has been the intelligence and discipline of its execution of its business model. It has focused on profitable expansion rather than attempting to win low-margin volume for volume sake.
If both the major players are rational, and Dixon manages the level and mix of capacity within Jetstar and Qantas sensitively and finesses the shift of volume to Jetstar from a group perspective, both Qantas and Virgin Blue can continue to make good money from the domestic market without any of the airlines being damaged badly in the process.
Both might make less than under today's increasingly positive industry settings, but that would still be a better outcome than if a genuine third party gatecrashed the duopoly or if an increasingly desperate Qantas were ultimately backed into a corner and forced into subeconomic behaviour.
There is no certainty that the Jetstar strategy will be successful. It is certain that without it, however, the survival of Qantas's domestic business will be under increasing threat.
[email protected]
===========================================
Last edited by Wirraway; 3rd Dec 2003 at 09:14.
Silver Liverie
Wonder if the silver liverie is more to do with the four or five extra seats it will provide due to paint savings or will this be something other than a bare metal finish?
Interested also in what some of the ACC boys and girls have to say about it........do share!
Willie
Interested also in what some of the ACC boys and girls have to say about it........do share!
Willie
Evertonian
I doubt if it will be a bare metal finish. Especially considering the composites used by Airbus. Just have a look at AA's A300's.
Don't get me wrong, I quite like the bare metal look, but not on Airbus aircraft!
Don't get me wrong, I quite like the bare metal look, but not on Airbus aircraft!
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To those posters on Pprune who think that there is nothing wrong with the current trend towards downward pressure on pay and conditions, a little story:
There was once a little baby bird that fell out of its nest. It thought that it would die of the cold when a cow came along and sh*t right on top of it. The little bird thought that this would surely be the end, until it realised that the sh*t was nice and warm and it started to feel a lot better. So good, in fact, that it started to sing. A low flying crow heard the little baby bird singing and swooped down and ate it!
The moral of the story:
Those who put you in the sh*t are not necessarily your enemy. Those that get you out of the sh*t are not necessarily your friend. And if you're happy to live in the sh*t - don't sing about it.
There are many little baby birds singing in the sh*t on this forum, and the low flying crows are circling to feed off you one-by-one!
There was once a little baby bird that fell out of its nest. It thought that it would die of the cold when a cow came along and sh*t right on top of it. The little bird thought that this would surely be the end, until it realised that the sh*t was nice and warm and it started to feel a lot better. So good, in fact, that it started to sing. A low flying crow heard the little baby bird singing and swooped down and ate it!
The moral of the story:
Those who put you in the sh*t are not necessarily your enemy. Those that get you out of the sh*t are not necessarily your friend. And if you're happy to live in the sh*t - don't sing about it.
There are many little baby birds singing in the sh*t on this forum, and the low flying crows are circling to feed off you one-by-one!
Props are for boats!
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Looks like Jet Star, are getting the same kit as Jet Blues A320s leather interior and Entertainment system, I wonder if thryll get Direct TV or Fox Satelite aswell. Air Frontier in the States have A320s with Direct TV, apparently very popular.
Infact makes me wonder if Jet Blue is their model they intend to emulate partially, time will tell.
Sheep
I think really its gotta take a cut of the QF domestic hasnt it, surely. I mean thats what LCCs do steel market and customers from Mainline Carriers. A bit short sighted I think. OF 737 jocks may need to start bidding for International or other Fleets in the near future.
Good Luck "JETSTAR"
Sheep
Infact makes me wonder if Jet Blue is their model they intend to emulate partially, time will tell.
Sheep
Dixon said he is confident Jetstar won't take market share from the full service Qantas domestic operation and can conduct business alongside rival Virgin Blue.
Good Luck "JETSTAR"
Sheep
Last edited by Sheep Guts; 3rd Dec 2003 at 07:52.
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“If we are going to be cannibalised, we may as well cannibalise ourselves”.
Exactly. The whole aim of Jetstar is to reduce the growth in the high cost mainline (or reduce its market share) and expand the market share of the lower cost carrier.
Jet jockey. What a load of BS. Av teacher’s salaries at 70,000. It may have been reported that way but do you know what politics is all about. ACT third year teacher as of Sep 2003 - $43,470. NSW thirteenth year teacher - $59,000. Av teacher pay across the country is about $42,000. Get your facts straight.
Three Bars. I can assure you of one thing. Not a single ppruner/pilot/wage earner on the planet thinks that “there is nothing wrong with the current trend . . . . “
People are realistic though, and understand that although we would all like to be paid a kings ransom, the conditions on offer are beyond the control of ANY PROSPECTIVE PILOT looking at working for Jetstar. It is simply out of my hands and out of your hands too. We were not consulted.
Lets face it. The majority of pilots will be experienced and type rated on the Airbus – all will be Australian passport holders. A lot may be ex Ansett and some will be attracted to come from overseas. Some may come from outfits like Dragon air where they were employed direct from GA, or some European carriers like BMI or Easy jet.
A lot may decide the lifestyle or conditions are better where they are and will choose to stay put – Jetstar will not be the be all and end all of airlines to work for.
But it will be based in Oz and that will be reason enough for some folks.
I am ex AN, work in Asia on narrow body airliners for a major carrier and get paid less than the figures quoted at Jetstar. It will take me longer to get a command here and rent/cost of living is double than oz. I know of people at Silkair and Eva (and other carriers) in similar positions where a move to Jetstar would result in MORE disposable income, quicker commands and many would say better lifestyle. Some of these good folk have up to 7-8 thousand hours Airbus time including C and T.
So, I ask you, why wouldn’t I apply for a position at Jetstar.
Exactly. The whole aim of Jetstar is to reduce the growth in the high cost mainline (or reduce its market share) and expand the market share of the lower cost carrier.
Jet jockey. What a load of BS. Av teacher’s salaries at 70,000. It may have been reported that way but do you know what politics is all about. ACT third year teacher as of Sep 2003 - $43,470. NSW thirteenth year teacher - $59,000. Av teacher pay across the country is about $42,000. Get your facts straight.
Three Bars. I can assure you of one thing. Not a single ppruner/pilot/wage earner on the planet thinks that “there is nothing wrong with the current trend . . . . “
People are realistic though, and understand that although we would all like to be paid a kings ransom, the conditions on offer are beyond the control of ANY PROSPECTIVE PILOT looking at working for Jetstar. It is simply out of my hands and out of your hands too. We were not consulted.
Lets face it. The majority of pilots will be experienced and type rated on the Airbus – all will be Australian passport holders. A lot may be ex Ansett and some will be attracted to come from overseas. Some may come from outfits like Dragon air where they were employed direct from GA, or some European carriers like BMI or Easy jet.
A lot may decide the lifestyle or conditions are better where they are and will choose to stay put – Jetstar will not be the be all and end all of airlines to work for.
But it will be based in Oz and that will be reason enough for some folks.
I am ex AN, work in Asia on narrow body airliners for a major carrier and get paid less than the figures quoted at Jetstar. It will take me longer to get a command here and rent/cost of living is double than oz. I know of people at Silkair and Eva (and other carriers) in similar positions where a move to Jetstar would result in MORE disposable income, quicker commands and many would say better lifestyle. Some of these good folk have up to 7-8 thousand hours Airbus time including C and T.
So, I ask you, why wouldn’t I apply for a position at Jetstar.
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OhBehave,
You wrote:
"Three Bars. I can assure you of one thing. Not a single ppruner/pilot/wage earner on the planet thinks that “there is nothing wrong with the current trend . . . . “"
Here's a selection.
Cruze Power wrote:
Oh my heart bleeds for the poor little 'soles (QF pilots) . Might have to defer that new car till next month. And as for those also on the inside, what...... should this be a surprise? Not. Maybe now they'll start to see some equity and realism in pay packets with some of their poorer, affiliated cousins.
Flyingins wrote:
"Would you turn down the offer to fly an A320 just so some bloke you never met can get his 737 command in 5 years instead of 10? I doubt it. Welcome to the real world, people. Not always fair, is it?"
Captain Stoobing wrote:
"QF would be mad if they didn't take advantage of these low wages. I personally think my licence is worth a bit more but I am not in the position where I have to think about it."
nomorecatering wrote:
"Some of you guys dont know or dont remember what its like to to be at the bottome of the food chain. Some of you guys are whinging about a measly $143,000 per year. God I'd like to be on that pittance."
longjohn wrote:
"The reality is that these pilots are well paid and enjoy even better conditions. If WE are to compete in the low cost game, then it must be on truly competitive terms, or else the company will simply look elsewhere."
TAY 611 wrote:
"low cost is just that...Low cost. Watch out you QF mainline guys the blow torch is being turned up on you very shortly..
It may be Jet connect (yep those cheap Kiwi's again) that will be the new operator and they will be pleased with their new NG's or Airbus."
James the 4th wrote:
"So if you want to be a tradey, go and good riddence. Leave the industry to us that still enjoy flying for a fair and equitable salary. I too will wave at you when I fly over and mutter "It must be hell down there." Get your head out of the sand and look what is happening around the world. You cant live in your sheltered workshop for ever. Go overseas and work for anyone over there and see how long it takes for you start missing Oz. Unless you are a complete slave to mammon you will be ready to come back at half pay in 2 years......"
dirtylittlefokker wrote:
"You guys at the White Rat MUST have seen it coming. There are MANY pilots out there who would kill to fly again for half of what you are getting, you are obviously unaware of what the situation is out there in the real world."
And finally from Next Generation:
"As for you other wingers, WHO HELD THE GUN TO YOUR HEAD AND FORCED YOU TO BECOME A PILOT? IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT, GO AND BECOME A BRICKIE OR A PLUMBER AND I WILL WAVE BACK TO YOU WHEN I FLY OVER THE HAWKESBURY, YOU LOSERS."
What conclusion should I draw from such posts? By the way, these quotes were after about 10 minutes research. I'm sure there are many others.
I've said before... Supply and demand means that if nobody accepts the crap conditions that are on offer, then they may have to be increased. Is this realistic? Probably not ... but neither is it realistic to expect me to be happy that people are prepared to see my conditions be put under pressure just because they want to do my job for less.
You wrote:
"Three Bars. I can assure you of one thing. Not a single ppruner/pilot/wage earner on the planet thinks that “there is nothing wrong with the current trend . . . . “"
Here's a selection.
Cruze Power wrote:
Oh my heart bleeds for the poor little 'soles (QF pilots) . Might have to defer that new car till next month. And as for those also on the inside, what...... should this be a surprise? Not. Maybe now they'll start to see some equity and realism in pay packets with some of their poorer, affiliated cousins.
Flyingins wrote:
"Would you turn down the offer to fly an A320 just so some bloke you never met can get his 737 command in 5 years instead of 10? I doubt it. Welcome to the real world, people. Not always fair, is it?"
Captain Stoobing wrote:
"QF would be mad if they didn't take advantage of these low wages. I personally think my licence is worth a bit more but I am not in the position where I have to think about it."
nomorecatering wrote:
"Some of you guys dont know or dont remember what its like to to be at the bottome of the food chain. Some of you guys are whinging about a measly $143,000 per year. God I'd like to be on that pittance."
longjohn wrote:
"The reality is that these pilots are well paid and enjoy even better conditions. If WE are to compete in the low cost game, then it must be on truly competitive terms, or else the company will simply look elsewhere."
TAY 611 wrote:
"low cost is just that...Low cost. Watch out you QF mainline guys the blow torch is being turned up on you very shortly..
It may be Jet connect (yep those cheap Kiwi's again) that will be the new operator and they will be pleased with their new NG's or Airbus."
James the 4th wrote:
"So if you want to be a tradey, go and good riddence. Leave the industry to us that still enjoy flying for a fair and equitable salary. I too will wave at you when I fly over and mutter "It must be hell down there." Get your head out of the sand and look what is happening around the world. You cant live in your sheltered workshop for ever. Go overseas and work for anyone over there and see how long it takes for you start missing Oz. Unless you are a complete slave to mammon you will be ready to come back at half pay in 2 years......"
dirtylittlefokker wrote:
"You guys at the White Rat MUST have seen it coming. There are MANY pilots out there who would kill to fly again for half of what you are getting, you are obviously unaware of what the situation is out there in the real world."
And finally from Next Generation:
"As for you other wingers, WHO HELD THE GUN TO YOUR HEAD AND FORCED YOU TO BECOME A PILOT? IF YOU DON"T LIKE IT, GO AND BECOME A BRICKIE OR A PLUMBER AND I WILL WAVE BACK TO YOU WHEN I FLY OVER THE HAWKESBURY, YOU LOSERS."
What conclusion should I draw from such posts? By the way, these quotes were after about 10 minutes research. I'm sure there are many others.
I've said before... Supply and demand means that if nobody accepts the crap conditions that are on offer, then they may have to be increased. Is this realistic? Probably not ... but neither is it realistic to expect me to be happy that people are prepared to see my conditions be put under pressure just because they want to do my job for less.
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3 Bars. Your list of derogatory and sometimes childish (next generation especially) comments posted here by ppruners in no way shows a willingness for employees to be paid less. Not a single post has made such a claim. In most cases the comments emanate from people whose main desire is to move up the chain and receive a HIGHER salary. Probably the same objectives you have. The comments made by Longjohn are extremely pertinent
The conclusion you should draw from these posts is that unfortunately there is a large amount of animosity towards QF pilots from many ppruners. This is sad but indicative of an industry slowly aligning itself with practices commonly seen throughout the rest of the world. There now exists a large gap between income levels at different airlines, something that did not exist many years ago.
Your final comment indicates that you neglected to read some of the points made in my post, or at least did not digest the information I presented. I will not bother re-writing it.
No one is attempting to do your job for less. No one is even attempting to do your job. Your employment at QF is secure. Your pay and conditions will not change as a result of Jetstar entering the market.
You have not answered my first question but nonetheless, I will ask you a second one. What outcome to the Oz industry would you like to have seen?
And one more bonus question 3 bars. QF 767 pilots have been quoted on pprune and elsewhere numerous times, as being “the lowest paid 767 pilots in the world”. What are your thoughts on this?
The conclusion you should draw from these posts is that unfortunately there is a large amount of animosity towards QF pilots from many ppruners. This is sad but indicative of an industry slowly aligning itself with practices commonly seen throughout the rest of the world. There now exists a large gap between income levels at different airlines, something that did not exist many years ago.
Your final comment indicates that you neglected to read some of the points made in my post, or at least did not digest the information I presented. I will not bother re-writing it.
No one is attempting to do your job for less. No one is even attempting to do your job. Your employment at QF is secure. Your pay and conditions will not change as a result of Jetstar entering the market.
You have not answered my first question but nonetheless, I will ask you a second one. What outcome to the Oz industry would you like to have seen?
And one more bonus question 3 bars. QF 767 pilots have been quoted on pprune and elsewhere numerous times, as being “the lowest paid 767 pilots in the world”. What are your thoughts on this?
Jeezzzz...that was quick!!
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Lets get a few facts straight. QF pilot's ARE NOT paid too much. Anyone who suggests otherwise is plain ignorant of economies of scale. They deserve every cent they get, as do the Virgin pilots. If the Impulse lads are going to work for a lower rate, I fail to see the relevance of that to other pilots. Trying to justify ones actions at the expense of another is futile and baseless. If it does in fact undermine the industry to which many of us have commited so much time, that will be a very sad thing indeed.
However getting on a high horse and attempting to give credence to (perceived) dubious actions by denegrating the pay and conditions of another group of pilot's is plain wrong.
To those of you willing to respond with posts indicating you think we are on easy street, please ponder this. The job you are doing right now, whatever the pay rate, how would you feel if a young sprog came along and offered their services for 30% less? So you fly a King Air for $50k a year, I come along and do it for $30k, does that now qualify me to call you overpaid? of course not.
Ignore the idiot comments comparing doctors etc. Most pilots spend alot longer than 6 years in below averge conditions to get the requirements for airline flying. There are a FEW who get the easy road, MOST do not. Yep doctors study for longer, pilots work for peanuts for longer to get experience. A doctor may see 5000 to 10,000 patients a year, a 737 pilot may fly over 100,000 passengers a year, big deal. Who's worth more?It's a vacuous comparison!
While we fight here among ourselves, the pathetic little no brainer bean counters in the respective organisations are rubbing their Mr Burns fingers together Laughing all the way to the bank. Divide and conquer!!!!! it works EVERY time. I think it will be some time before we wake up to this disgusting travesty and injustice. Don't sit in here rambling on about other pilots and their perceived unjust conditions, be pro-active and improve your own lot in life.
However getting on a high horse and attempting to give credence to (perceived) dubious actions by denegrating the pay and conditions of another group of pilot's is plain wrong.
To those of you willing to respond with posts indicating you think we are on easy street, please ponder this. The job you are doing right now, whatever the pay rate, how would you feel if a young sprog came along and offered their services for 30% less? So you fly a King Air for $50k a year, I come along and do it for $30k, does that now qualify me to call you overpaid? of course not.
Ignore the idiot comments comparing doctors etc. Most pilots spend alot longer than 6 years in below averge conditions to get the requirements for airline flying. There are a FEW who get the easy road, MOST do not. Yep doctors study for longer, pilots work for peanuts for longer to get experience. A doctor may see 5000 to 10,000 patients a year, a 737 pilot may fly over 100,000 passengers a year, big deal. Who's worth more?It's a vacuous comparison!
While we fight here among ourselves, the pathetic little no brainer bean counters in the respective organisations are rubbing their Mr Burns fingers together Laughing all the way to the bank. Divide and conquer!!!!! it works EVERY time. I think it will be some time before we wake up to this disgusting travesty and injustice. Don't sit in here rambling on about other pilots and their perceived unjust conditions, be pro-active and improve your own lot in life.
Join Date: Jun 2003
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What you are worth is the amount that someone else is prepared to take to do your job plus the cost of replacing you with this person (training, industrial action, incovenience, etc etc). There is not too much more to it.