"JetStar" the name - 23 A320s ordered

[Buster Hyman]

Three little words. Supply and demand. Nuff said.

[Three Bars]

OhBehave,

I do not intend to get into a slanging match with you and I try to avoid getting personal.

You seem to have taken offence at my last post. I was merely responding to your comment made directly to me that "not a single poster .. " and want to point out to you that plenty of people on this forum seem to have no problem with the idea of QF pilots "joining the real world". While they might want to earn more, it is the "and to hell with everybody else and their conditions" attitude that I find hard to take.

I wish that I could be as optimistic as you about Jetstar not affecting the pay and conditions of QF pilots. If it doesn't now - then it may well in the future. What do you think will happen to the 737 if Jetstar is a runaway success and suddenly routes become unprofitable for QF mainline domestic?

Airlines today don't give a damn about anything other than salary rates. To hear that mainline wages are too high when QF will probably post a record profit this year - think of those performance bonuses $$$$ boys - really gets me p*ssed off!

Regarding the value of QF 767 drivers, frankly, I don't have an opinion one way or the other. I work hard and I feel that I am entitled to the level of remuneration that has been decided on in the past and I resent those people who feel that we should have to do it for less just because they are prepared to.

[Red Hot Chili Pepper]

“I am entitled to the level of remuneration that has been decided on in the past and I resent those people who feel that we should have to do it for less just because they are prepared to.”

Boy, would Milton Friedman be having a giggle at that one.

Market forces are a big factor in the Jetstar issue – it appears that AIPA understands this more than its members do.

Also, no one is asking you to work for less. Not even Dixon.

[tobzalp]

Not being a pilot but an ATC I can see problems with this prepered to do the job for less mentality. In ATC we have had a similar yet different outcome. We have had the last few EBAs where the senior persons have agreed to the entire package because it gave them the 2.5% every 6 months pay rise and no losses in the way of any other entitlements but at the same time reducing the new players in the game massively in terms of pay. Take for example a trainee out of the college. The agreed to framework is a 50% cut in pay. Imagine that this happened to a Captain on $150k or so. That suddenly becomes $70K and a whole lot of trouble ensues with the bank man.

What seems maybe to some like a small problem and not even within your own ranks quickly becomes your problem when the new lower paid pilots/controllers/employees become the majority and get some sway and you find your entitlements getting bargained away ala Cathay Pacific. It will happen and I say I can't blame them. The experienced work force must make a stand and tell the employer once and for all that reductions in conditions are just not on.

[ferris]

tobzalp

Imagine that this happened to a Captain on $150k or so. That suddenly becomes $70K and a whole lot of trouble ensues

I'd suggest that is happening with Jetstar (numbers aren't exact, but the principle is the same).

The experienced work force must make a stand

How? QF has started a new company in order to subvert current conditions. I'm sure the unions will argue in the Commission, but the IRC will accept QF stance that the new co. is a seperate entity which makes unviable routes viable etc. In fact, I 'd hazard a quess that any industrial action at QF wouldn't be legal. If AsA started a Low Cost Controller business, called TCASstar, in order to compete with other companies invited to tender for tower ops (if that ever happens), what would you guys do about it? Do you think there would be the will to resist if AsA says "we can't compete with Serco unless we use this LCC TCASstar". Not only that, some AsA people want to work for TCASstar, which offers journeyman instant upgrades to a flat salary that is an increase to them, but a decrease to an AsA equivalent. Or offers a return to their home state. It's a rock and a hard place. QF seem to think they can't compete with DJ long term unless they do this now. ie DJ will eventually chew QFs shorthaul business until it is no longer viable.
I truly think it's supply and demand at work. Eventually, there won't be enough people of the right calibre entering the profession, and there will be upward pressure on T&C (I hear that is already happening. Who'd consider recommending aviation to a young fella?). In the mean time, it will be painful. Is what's going on right or fair? Maybe not- but it's shades of grey, mate, never black and white!
Are AsA hiring?

[Douglas Mcdonnell]

Three bars. I was reading on another site about planning for stop work meetings. Im asuming that this is only a minority that wants this action. Please tell me that mainline is not so insular that know one there has heard about what happened in 89.

Hopefully Jetstar will be able to attract quite a few guys from overseas. A nice ticket back to Australian flying.

The way you talk Three Bs you would think that you were loosing your job. This hasnt and wont happen. You have been guaranteed by the CEO that you wont loose money or conditions. If you guys are worth so much and nothing is changing for you, what are you worried about?

I think the point that seems to have been missed by most mainline posters is that these decisions are driven by comercial realities, not the needs and wants of a particular group within the company. The board answers to the shareholders. World trends show that Low cost carriers are the way things are going. Its great to stand your digs and tell the world how much you are worth but just look around. Why did Ansett collapse 3 yrs ago?

You ever wonder why there is a lot of animosity towards some mainline contenders. Basically I think it comes down to your obvious lack of respect towards anyone who does not fly for mainline.

If thats what it means to be a big time professional then maybe its time to go back to putting up fences!!

Open your eyes three Bars.

[Three Bars]

So I can only assume DM that you see nothing wrong with a downward pressure on wages? QF mainline are set up to make a record annual profit but wages are still too high? The CEO's guarantee says "current conditions" - I wouldn't trust management as far as I could throw them about our future conditions. DM, if you work in Australia these pressures will eventually impact on you also as management pushs for ever lower and lower wages.

I hope that I have enough seniority to keep my job, whatever happens, but I don't know about those further down the list. If you can't see the problem with LCCs and its effect on the wages that we all (not just QF mainline) have, then I'm afraid it's you that have your eyes shut!

But if you really are happy - realistic, whatever you want to call it - with the downward pressure on pilot wages, then you prove my point for OhBehave and you will deserve what you get! If I lose my job or my conditions are seriously eroded, it will be you, and those like you, that I have to thank for it!

PS: On subsequent reading of your post, I assume that you are talking about the Qrewroom site and that probably makes you an Impulse pilot, since you can read our threads, but we can't read yours. Why don't you put a post on a Qrewroom thread making your argument - I would be interested to ses the response!

[Red Hot Chili Pepper]

Three bars,

You are a broken record. People on this forum have tried to point out to you that NO ONE WANTS TO SEE PAY AND CONDITIONS DECREASE in the oz airline industry. Oh Behave has alluded to this and you ignore it. Douglas Mcdonnell referred to commercial realities.

No one is volunteering to get paid less but people are realistic enough to understand that this is a reality that cannot be stopped by mere mortals such as pilots. What makes you think that the Oz airline industry could thumb its nose to the exact practices existing in every other airline market around the world?

I guess you are going to respond with “so you see nothing wrong with . . . . “ again. No, I think it is unfortunate that the airline industry is going down the LCC route but I realize that I cannot stop it.

[Keg]

42 cents per seat per hour. That is the difference between Impulse and QF Captains on aircraft of 177 seats. Thats how much you guys have saved Qantas. Add F/O costs and you are talking about less than $1 per seat per hour!
To save QF $177 per flight, you guys have just increased the spiral dive of pay packets in this country. At least QF drivers now have a guarantee (admittedly not worth the paper it's printed on) that our pay and conditions are safe. Do you?

That said, I'm prepared to committ MY money and MY association resources to ensuring that you guys get a better deal over the next few years because ultimately, it serves ALL of us. Some look at the big picture and the next ten to fifteen years, some can't see past the next two. Impulse Captains saw the protection of their current incomes/mortgages, etc and probably 'sold' the issue to the F/Os on the basis of getting a command upgrade- and therefore a good healthy pay rise- when all the new aircraft are on line. The fact that you have sold yourselves short (by at least $30-60K) for those current captains and soon to be Captains is lost on you.

One dollar per seat lads, one dollar per seat.


RHCP, the point you miss is that the IPG could have crewed it for a LOT more had they had the fortitude to guts it out for more.

At a time when there were HEAPS of ex AN 767 drivers out there, AIPA negotiated a deal that saw pay increase for most/all F/Os and Command pay at least hold their own (and increase in a lot of cases) for the skippers whilst guaranteeing access to fhe flying for their members. This while some Ansett pilots had offered to crew it for 50% less.

Stack that up by the deal that the IPG have done for crewing their aircraft. Same pay for 50% more seats. No other crews out there offering to do it for less, DJ expanding and still recruiting, etc, etc. They were short sighted and have put pressure on both DJ and QF mainline.

Keg's fearless predictions at the end of 2003.

• At some stage in the future, QF will have Jetstar flogging across the Tasman.
• QF will withdraw from more and more routes where they have been 'unable to extract an 'adequate' return' ( ) and Jetstar will get them leaving them with the lion's share of the domestic market and QF mainline becoming the niche high end carrier
• In about a decade or so, the then CEO of the Qantas group will decide that having all these different businesses is silly and duplicates many jobs and will tie them all up under the one banner again.
• At some stage in the next five to seven years, the IPG will be sick to death of their crappy conditions and be begging to have them improved. I'll put money on the fact that they will wnat 'mainline' support for that- possibly when we all end up under the one banner again.

[Whiskery]

Keg, when you state

At some stage in the next five to seven years, the IPG will be sick to death of their crappy conditions and be begging to have them improved. I'll put money on the fact that they will wnat 'mainline' support for that- possibly when we all end up under the one banner again.

Have you considered that "banner" could well be the Australian Airlines / Jetstar banner ?

[Red Hot Chili Pepper]

Keg,

A quick look at QF pay compared to every other jet airline in Oz Pacific (NZ,VB,Freedom,AAE,Air Pacific,Caledonian,Air Naru,NJS,Flt West, Sywest – and there are others) will easily show that QF pilot’s conditions are way above benchmark – i.e. way above market value.

Unions in Oz have traditionally provided a hedge against market forces but Jetstar is how QF will circumvent the influence of AIPA and allow the market to speak.

This is necessary because the 2-airline policy provided the airlines with a hedge against these same market forces. This policy is no longer in force.

It was obvious where pilot conditions were going in Oz the day deregulation was announced.

Does any QF pilot honestly think that had the IPG upped their offer to QF rates that Dixon would not have taken his offer to NJS or AAE or Flightwest or anyone else.

[Keg]

Whiskery- yep. Absolutely. I originally included that in my post but in creatingi the list thingy I must've left that out when I was re-typing it.

RHCP, they have only been QFs competitors in recent times. When you compare QF pay for people doing the same job in the areas we've been competing in, we've struggled to maintain the status quo- and yes, that is due to lack of 'fortitude' of us and our predecessors over the last decade or so.

[Col. Walter E. Kurtz]

I still fail to see what mainline has actually done to protect their wage and conditions.

Sincerely, can someone please outline what the AIPA strategy and actions have been in this matter? I mean, this didn't just crop up last week.

For those that criticise the IPG, or any other pilots looking to get into airline flying, how many of you when you were looking for an airline job, would have knocked back the offers that are on the tables now?

"No thanks, that will make me a cheaper pilot than what QF mainline get - and I wouldn't want to devalue their work. I think I will just stay in GA for 1/4 - 1/2 the money" Whilst that is a nice sentiment, and actually has a basis, try telling that to Mr Mastercard when you get another $30 late fee cause you haven't earned enough this month to afford to pay up.

People need the work.

The reality - and a sad one - is that, whilst there is no unified pilot workforce, union or guild that defends and promotes pilot wages and conditions at all levels, and there is an oversupply in labour, there will be an ever increasing downward pressure on wages from managers and economists, especially if we do not defend them adequately, and do something for the others 'further down the food chain'.

A cliche - but has merit: United we stand - Divided we fall.

[Okie]

From Michael West's column in "The Australian" 4/12/03

GeoffStar's hangars on

THE advent of its new discount carrier GeoffStar may shortly deliver Qantas a fillip on the cost front. It might even allow that Mangy Old Roo to survive.

It won't be long before Qantas boss Geoff Dixon cements a deal with the unions to crew the new airline.

The plane drivers union is having a yarn with Dicko's troops at the moment. A Qantas domestic captain now takes home about 220,000 a year -- dollars, that is, not hosties.

Word is that GeoffStar is offering about $122,000 for the first year, rising over the next five years to parity with a Virgin Blue captain at about $160,000.

Our sources don't know what first officers and hosties are likely to get, but Geoff reckons GeoffStar will undercut Virgin on costs, and in the Virgin prospectus the hosties are on $36,000 versus $65,000 at Qantas -- so there's your ballpark for savings.

Meanwhile, back at the hangar a tug, which is a vehicle which lugs planes about, accidentally crashed into a brand spanking new Qantas 747 400 yesterday, banging into the engine and ripping off some skin.

Registration OEF, a month old, it will be out for a couple of weeks and Qantas must be hoping it's insured for this sort of thing.

[Gnadenburg]

Chili Pepper

Impulse have stitched up a concrete deal with seniority which means you will be unlikely to ever get a command in Jetsar.

Some initial DE commands but they will be expected to go to the right hand seat when Impulse F/o's experienced enough.

The Impulse guys may not have sold themselves short at all. Only to their big and affectionate brothers in QF Mainline.

Get yourself into a good Airbus airline abroad before a percentage of disaffected Impulse drivers arrive on the market.

BTW Nobody answered the QF 767 Domestic pay versus Jetstar 160K pay question.

[Red Hot Chili Pepper]

Gnad,

Thanks mate. I already fly the bus and have been since you were in nappies.

[Poto]

Is this a circus?

"DE commands are expected to slip on over to the right hand seat once the 717 boys and gals have enough experience on the new type"
You are kidding me, surely
Bet those DE skippers are looking forward to that one

[Keg]

Gnade, I can't find the question and in the quick search I could be bothered to do! Let me know what it is/was and I'll do my best to answer it.

In response to the West Australian, OEJ is the 'new' Wunala Dreaming and somehow a tug plowed smack into the back of one of the engines.

[Wirraway]

THEWEST.COM.AU

Qantas' Jetstar wins wary nod
By Geoffrey Thomas

JETSTAR, Qantas' new low cost airline, is getting a cautious tick from analysts but fears persist that the new carrier will eat into its parent's share of the domestic market.

UBS analyst Stephen Wood said yesterday that with a lower cost structure, and hence lower ticket prices, he remained apprehensive about cannibalisation.

"However, with an offering that is targeted at the bottom end of Virgin Blue's market, we believe Jetstar should relatively erode Virgin Blue's business to a greater extent," he said.

Macquarie Research Equities suggested Jetstar was not a high risk venture for Qantas and that the new airline would help cut group costs by up to 6 per cent.

For Credit Suisse First Boston analyst Greg Ward, the critical factor is Jetstar's route network and fare structure, to be released in January.

"We believe there remains a healthy dose of scepticism in the market regarding Qantas management's ability to successfully manage the coexistence of an LCA (low cost airline) without cannibalising the margins of the premium carrier," Mr Ward said in a research note to clients.

"We do, however, acknowledge differences between Qantas-Jetstar and past international failures and consequently give Qantas management some benefit of the doubt."

Qantas hopes Jetstar is its ace in the billion-dollar poker battle for the lion's share of the booming Australian domestic travel market.

That card was an agreement, signed last week, with former Impulse Airline pilots who currently fly 115-seat Boeing 717s under the QantasLink banner, to fly 177-seat Airbus A320s for the same pay.

Impulse Airlines was taken over by Qantas in May 2001, just before it was about to collapse and the pilots were kept on the same pay agreements and separate from the full service domestic Qantas operation.

The deal with the pilots is unique on this scale in Australia's turbulent aviation industrial relations history and has its roots in the devastating 1989 pilot strike. Many of the former Impulse Airlines pilots are what are called 89ers - former Ansett and Australian Airlines pilots who refused to return to work in 1989 on lower paid contracts and were forced to work overseas.

Their jobs in 1989 were taken by a combination of those who did accept lower paid contracts and foreign pilots. These pilots make up a big number of the pilots who today fly for Qantas, operating the 45-strong domestic 737 fleet.

When Impulse Airlines and Virgin Blue started operations, many of the pilots were 89ers who returned from overseas.

According to one Qantas pilot, there are extremely deep divisions within the different pilot groups and that rift is set to widen after the former Impulse pilots agreed to fly the Jetstar Airbus fleet on the same pay structure.

That structure sees a Qantas 168-seat Boeing 737-800 captain getting $220,000 a year and a Jetstar 177-seat A320 captain being paid $120,000 a year, according to insiders.

-THEWEST.COM.AU

============================================

[oicur12]

Can anyone inform us as to what role AIPA played.

Were they asked to submit a tender to crew LCC or were they completely bypassed?

Just asking.

hey okie,

i hear your back in the saddle. congrats.