No-frills kangaroo ready to hop
Join Date: Sep 2002
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Here we go again all you Neville's.
We had this discussion with Australian Airlines and it was said then on this board that it would be crewed by current mainline pilots. No one believed that and alot believed that the ex Ansett blokes and Impulse guys would crew it. It was never going to happen.
This will be no different. Fullstop. Current mainline pilots will crew it. So can we stop dreaming that all of a sudden 100 737 jet jobs will eventuate. Some jobs may eventuate as a result of people moving up the chain within Qantas mainline - and they will be second officer slots on the A330 and 400. And that is a good thing.
We had this discussion with Australian Airlines and it was said then on this board that it would be crewed by current mainline pilots. No one believed that and alot believed that the ex Ansett blokes and Impulse guys would crew it. It was never going to happen.
This will be no different. Fullstop. Current mainline pilots will crew it. So can we stop dreaming that all of a sudden 100 737 jet jobs will eventuate. Some jobs may eventuate as a result of people moving up the chain within Qantas mainline - and they will be second officer slots on the A330 and 400. And that is a good thing.
Hate to say it, but if Skimpy is crewed by mainline crew maintaining current conditions and benefits then this Airline is going to have a very hard time competing on the 'Flight Operations front'.
Join Date: Nov 2002
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Maybe if they didnt spend millions on there new uniform(australian designer label)and have the stuff made in asia.And by the way thanks for suporting the australian textile industry!!
They wouldnt have to shed staff.
The new low budget service could end up like the two skips on the side of the road near the alice airport.ROO STEW!!!!
They wouldnt have to shed staff.
The new low budget service could end up like the two skips on the side of the road near the alice airport.ROO STEW!!!!
Nunc est bibendum
hoss, you're kidding right?
A VERY reliable source within QF who also has some pretty good sources at DJ assures me (and I'd trust this bloke every day of the week and I know he's reading this!) that the cost structures between DJ and QF as far as tech crew costs are concerned are 'not that different'. If I could be bothered, I'd do the maths for you but I can't. I little 'give' and 'take' and some creative ways of doing business and I wouldn't be surprised if both AIPA and QF come to a pretty good arrangement.
Just to help me out though, can someone give me the yearly average hours for F/Os and Captains in DJ and I'll do a comparison based on some mates in QF.
A VERY reliable source within QF who also has some pretty good sources at DJ assures me (and I'd trust this bloke every day of the week and I know he's reading this!) that the cost structures between DJ and QF as far as tech crew costs are concerned are 'not that different'. If I could be bothered, I'd do the maths for you but I can't. I little 'give' and 'take' and some creative ways of doing business and I wouldn't be surprised if both AIPA and QF come to a pretty good arrangement.
Just to help me out though, can someone give me the yearly average hours for F/Os and Captains in DJ and I'll do a comparison based on some mates in QF.
Join Date: Mar 2002
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apacau -
NJS have just closed down their entire East Coast presence and are only hiring on contract. They have also indicated that they wish to wind down the Airline Ops business and focus on charter and freight.
Why wouldn't Impulse get the new Embraer jets? They have all the infrustructure already in place (crew and bases) at the locations these new jets would fly.
I ask you these questions seriously - not looking to argue. Just can't understand why NJS would close everything down and hire on contracts only just to start everything up and expand again. Why do it when all Impulse would have to do is renew their fleet (for regional ops - not the LCC)?
I believe the LCC will be under the Impulse umbrella somehow but remain a separate operation. Why would QF just say Impulse is the new LCC and swap the 'regional routes' over to NJS and their new wonder jets when they have the chance to start up a separate operation at significantly lower crew costs? I am sure QF could negotiate contracts much less than what the current Impulse crew are on. Just look at JetConnect!
This new LCC will not replace the current 717 regional network anytime soon. You can't fly all Y 737s BNE-ROK or MEL-LST frequently as you can the 717. Also the 717 is still very efficient in terms of aircraft and crew costs on such sectors as above. I agree the 717s will go - just not tomorrow or next year.
Hope the above makes sense. Just curious as to why QF would spend so much money on changing things that aren't broke. The 717 operation makes them heap$.
NJS have just closed down their entire East Coast presence and are only hiring on contract. They have also indicated that they wish to wind down the Airline Ops business and focus on charter and freight.
Why wouldn't Impulse get the new Embraer jets? They have all the infrustructure already in place (crew and bases) at the locations these new jets would fly.
I ask you these questions seriously - not looking to argue. Just can't understand why NJS would close everything down and hire on contracts only just to start everything up and expand again. Why do it when all Impulse would have to do is renew their fleet (for regional ops - not the LCC)?
I believe the LCC will be under the Impulse umbrella somehow but remain a separate operation. Why would QF just say Impulse is the new LCC and swap the 'regional routes' over to NJS and their new wonder jets when they have the chance to start up a separate operation at significantly lower crew costs? I am sure QF could negotiate contracts much less than what the current Impulse crew are on. Just look at JetConnect!
This new LCC will not replace the current 717 regional network anytime soon. You can't fly all Y 737s BNE-ROK or MEL-LST frequently as you can the 717. Also the 717 is still very efficient in terms of aircraft and crew costs on such sectors as above. I agree the 717s will go - just not tomorrow or next year.
Hope the above makes sense. Just curious as to why QF would spend so much money on changing things that aren't broke. The 717 operation makes them heap$.
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It has been stated in QF cabin crew employee forums, that if the new LCC is to go ahead, that all employees, in every division, will be paid at rates 'considerably lower' than Virgin Blue .... would mainline techies want to take such a pay cut? I know cabin crew wouldnt voluntarily do it !
If it happens, it will be intersting to see what all the EBAs end up like, and whether it affects QF mainline shorthaul services.........
If it happens, it will be intersting to see what all the EBAs end up like, and whether it affects QF mainline shorthaul services.........
Bottums Up
Ditzy
Where do you get your info from?
NJS haven't told me or anyone I know that they want to wind down the airline side of things. As a contract service provider the east coast flying has reduced because the contracts were not renewed, not because NJS just decided to shut up shop.
Why won't NJS get the junglejets? They have all the infrastructure already in place ....
I think the reality is that until a decision is made by QF, no one knows who will get what, be it LCC or regional jets. What we read here is speculation, and understandably based on individual biases towards retaining employment.
NJS haven't told me or anyone I know that they want to wind down the airline side of things. As a contract service provider the east coast flying has reduced because the contracts were not renewed, not because NJS just decided to shut up shop.
Why won't NJS get the junglejets? They have all the infrastructure already in place ....
I think the reality is that until a decision is made by QF, no one knows who will get what, be it LCC or regional jets. What we read here is speculation, and understandably based on individual biases towards retaining employment.
Last edited by Capt Claret; 15th Oct 2003 at 23:23.
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Upper Deck Right - this was also said about Australian Airlines , and the only group within Qantas Mainline to crew this airline were the pilots. This will be no different with the new LCC. Conditions and pay will be comparable as they are in AA.
3% or thereabouts is the figure in the saving in tech crew costs, between a full service airline and a low cost one. ****** all.
3% or thereabouts is the figure in the saving in tech crew costs, between a full service airline and a low cost one. ****** all.
Join Date: Jul 2002
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Pete C you are a bitter little pr1ck. How long does it take to get a high capacity rpt AOC up and running?
I think you have missread QFs commitment to guys like yourself. Im sure they dont loose sleep at night worrying about what you feel or think. See you at gate 59!!!!!
I think you have missread QFs commitment to guys like yourself. Im sure they dont loose sleep at night worrying about what you feel or think. See you at gate 59!!!!!
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Join Date: Mar 2001
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Thurs "The West Australian"
Qantas set for low-fare launch
By Geoffrey Thomas
QANTAS is expected to announce the launch of its new low cost/low fare airline at its annual meeting in Adelaide today.
First flagged two months ago by chief executive Geoff Dixon, the new holiday airline will operate a fleet of up to 20 all-economy class Boeing 737-800 or Airbus A321 aircraft.
The airline, which some insiders refer to as skimpy, will be modelled on Qantas' low cost international brand, Australian Airlines.
According to ABN AMRO airline analyst Bruce Low, Qantas has gained significant insight into the operation and structure of low cost carriers through buying Impulse Airlines two years ago and the establishment of Australian Airlines.
"Qantas appears to have come to the conclusion that it must do more to cut costs to compete with Virgin Blue," Mr Low said.
With the new airline to target domestic leisure routes, there may be some overlap with Qantas' regional subsidiary Qantaslink which operates 106-seat Boeing 717s and 75-85 seat BAe146 aircraft.
The new airline is part of Qantas' bid to cut its expenses by $1 billion over two years.
According to Mr Dixon, $800 million in cost savings have already been identified with $385 million from increased labour productivity, $200 million in fleet simplification overheads, $135 million through distribution initiatives and $80 million from refinement of the domestic product.
Qantas has also been striving to position itself and its fleet to meet widely varying market demands, from high yield traffic on routes to London and Los Angeles, to very low yield traffic from Sydney to Cairns or Melbourne to the Gold Coast.
This month Qantas unveiled its new business class skybeds and is in the final refit of its long haul fleet with seatback videos for all passengers.
Qantas shares yesterday jumped 10¢ to $3.62.
===========================================
Qantas set for low-fare launch
By Geoffrey Thomas
QANTAS is expected to announce the launch of its new low cost/low fare airline at its annual meeting in Adelaide today.
First flagged two months ago by chief executive Geoff Dixon, the new holiday airline will operate a fleet of up to 20 all-economy class Boeing 737-800 or Airbus A321 aircraft.
The airline, which some insiders refer to as skimpy, will be modelled on Qantas' low cost international brand, Australian Airlines.
According to ABN AMRO airline analyst Bruce Low, Qantas has gained significant insight into the operation and structure of low cost carriers through buying Impulse Airlines two years ago and the establishment of Australian Airlines.
"Qantas appears to have come to the conclusion that it must do more to cut costs to compete with Virgin Blue," Mr Low said.
With the new airline to target domestic leisure routes, there may be some overlap with Qantas' regional subsidiary Qantaslink which operates 106-seat Boeing 717s and 75-85 seat BAe146 aircraft.
The new airline is part of Qantas' bid to cut its expenses by $1 billion over two years.
According to Mr Dixon, $800 million in cost savings have already been identified with $385 million from increased labour productivity, $200 million in fleet simplification overheads, $135 million through distribution initiatives and $80 million from refinement of the domestic product.
Qantas has also been striving to position itself and its fleet to meet widely varying market demands, from high yield traffic on routes to London and Los Angeles, to very low yield traffic from Sydney to Cairns or Melbourne to the Gold Coast.
This month Qantas unveiled its new business class skybeds and is in the final refit of its long haul fleet with seatback videos for all passengers.
Qantas shares yesterday jumped 10¢ to $3.62.
===========================================
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I believe the fleet size of Impulse and NJS are similar ( no. of jets ).
If you listen to the " reliable " sources, NJS were just unlucky that they had 146s coming up for the end of their lease and Impulse did'nt. Also these same sources say that the 717 does not fit into QFs long term plans, it's not a regional jet and it's not a full size airliner ( a la 737 ). People have been bagging the 146, and saying that NJS is finished with QF since time in memoriam, well guess what........they are still there.
Ditzy, the main use for the jungle jet would be west coast, last time I looked, Impulse did'nt have too much infrastructure over there.
It's all speculation until Uncle Geoff makes a decision, but I can tell you that NJS' 10 year relationship with QF is far from on the rocks.
If you listen to the " reliable " sources, NJS were just unlucky that they had 146s coming up for the end of their lease and Impulse did'nt. Also these same sources say that the 717 does not fit into QFs long term plans, it's not a regional jet and it's not a full size airliner ( a la 737 ). People have been bagging the 146, and saying that NJS is finished with QF since time in memoriam, well guess what........they are still there.
Ditzy, the main use for the jungle jet would be west coast, last time I looked, Impulse did'nt have too much infrastructure over there.
It's all speculation until Uncle Geoff makes a decision, but I can tell you that NJS' 10 year relationship with QF is far from on the rocks.
Join Date: Oct 2001
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I've heard from good sources about Jungle jets for NJ. Emb190s to be precise. Just waiting for the big Q tick-off.
On that issue, I note in this month's ATW (p62) that there are 10 undisclosed orders for the EMB190 with 20 options. Could these be related (looks like the right sort of numbers) or am I reading FAR too much into this?
On that issue, I note in this month's ATW (p62) that there are 10 undisclosed orders for the EMB190 with 20 options. Could these be related (looks like the right sort of numbers) or am I reading FAR too much into this?
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Capt Claret -
My point was that it would be a huge cost for NJS to set up things on the East Coast again. Not impossible of course but I very big cost nontheless. Why not just use Impulse?
I am sure I have read that NJS was no longer interested in the Airline side of things. Infact two NJS employees said the same thing. I am not saying it is true but it was the feeling for a while (about a year ago?). I am sure I did see it in print somewhere. (Not from NJS though!)
cunning -
Then who or what would fly the regional jet routes on the East Coast? Yes I agree the 717 doesn't fit into QF's long term plans but that is not to say it is making them alot of money on the routes it flies. They don't seem in too much a hurry to get rid of them. And you are right. The 717 really isn't suited to the West.
Pete -
Please do not be so bitter. No one is provoking you to say such things. You just seem hell bent on upsetting or annoying people. Think what you wish but please refrain from such negativity. Please.
My point was that it would be a huge cost for NJS to set up things on the East Coast again. Not impossible of course but I very big cost nontheless. Why not just use Impulse?
I am sure I have read that NJS was no longer interested in the Airline side of things. Infact two NJS employees said the same thing. I am not saying it is true but it was the feeling for a while (about a year ago?). I am sure I did see it in print somewhere. (Not from NJS though!)
cunning -
Then who or what would fly the regional jet routes on the East Coast? Yes I agree the 717 doesn't fit into QF's long term plans but that is not to say it is making them alot of money on the routes it flies. They don't seem in too much a hurry to get rid of them. And you are right. The 717 really isn't suited to the West.
Pete -
Please do not be so bitter. No one is provoking you to say such things. You just seem hell bent on upsetting or annoying people. Think what you wish but please refrain from such negativity. Please.
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Qantas has made it quite clear in the last couple of months that it wants to simplify its fleets. The most successful carriers in the world. Ryan, Easy, SouthWestern, JetBlue, Virgin Blue all operate just one A/C type. Dixon is no dill and wants a dramatic reduction in QF's fleet types. 717 great on some routes but lacks flexibility on others (Q words not mine) and Boeing have already indicated that they will stop production soon. So when the leases are up on the 717 off they go barring a huge up swing in dom travel (the current reason more 767 200's aren't coke cans). The classics and 146 similar story. As for skimpy my guess it will be either main line or Jet connect. Mainline along similar lines of Aust Airlines or go for the jugular with the cheapest pilots going around any where, Jet connect. Impluse, NJ may get the Jungle if that ever comes. But that's just a guess. AIPA has its work cut out thats for sure.
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Ok so all the talk here is NJS and Impulse - you are forgetting two other QF subsidiaries namely eastern/sunstate sitting in the background with very solid and now increasingly combined infastructure..and....what's more appealing to QF is that the crews are even cheaper than impulse.
It would not be a crazy thought that the impulse 717 Jet operation is wound up, with impulse crews operating on the new skimpy services. EAA/Sunstate given Dh8-400's or even the jungle jets to operate MEL-LST, BNE-MKY etc.
There are other players in the field !
It would not be a crazy thought that the impulse 717 Jet operation is wound up, with impulse crews operating on the new skimpy services. EAA/Sunstate given Dh8-400's or even the jungle jets to operate MEL-LST, BNE-MKY etc.
There are other players in the field !
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I just can't see the mainline guys giving up their conditions and benefits and having to start all over again at 'Skimpy'
I think you're under some delusions about the conditions and benefits mainline guys get. I have a few friends working as 717 F/Os and read some info recently regarding F/O pay at Virgin. As a 767 F/O I bring home within $200.00 per fortnight of what these guys get.
Most of the so called "conditions" you're aluding to benefit the company more than they benefit me. It strikes me that many people base their impressions of Qantas Pilots on the old regime pre - privatisation when we got equal standown at home and only flew 400 hrs per year. Much has changed in the intervening years.
If I went to Australian, I'd get a pay rise, pay less tax on allowances, a simplified and (IMHO) fairer rostering system. The fact that Australian achieves cost savings of around 30 percent over its mainline parent confirms what most pilots have always known - that the cost savings are in infrastructure and support services, and not in what pilots actually get paid.
So if Geoff Dixon wants to set up a LCC airline then he has at his disposal a group of highly proficient and well trained tech crew to fly his aircraft at their current, economic, rates of pay. And they're all working for mainline.
WG.