No-frills kangaroo ready to hop
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"Operated to the same Safety levels as Qantas"
There is a lot in that statement that others are not seeing.
It's about standards and known qualities. You don't get that with off the street hires.
It will be crewed by Mainline pilots. New joiners will be QF S/O's.
There is a lot in that statement that others are not seeing.
It's about standards and known qualities. You don't get that with off the street hires.
It will be crewed by Mainline pilots. New joiners will be QF S/O's.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Factually speaking, jake, how many pax do you really think base the purchase of their ticket on QF's "Safety level"? SFA to none, would be my guess.
Pax priorities are price and/or schedule first. The airlines "safety level" is a long way down the track - unless of course one of the airlines being considered has had a previously extremely poor Safety record eg. Korean & Garuda.
Weren't the majority of QF pilots "off the street hires" at some time, knocked into the QANTAS mindset during training?
Any new off the street hires would similarly be processed through the QF system, initially, by QF trainers and checkers.
A few lcc's (eg. Cathay Cargo, Air Japan, Freedom) have gone down this road - "off the streeters" trained by the incumbent mainliners, but paid substantially less, until sufficient numbers of new hires then totally replace the mainliners.
At a future date this cheaper labour is then trickle fed back into the mainline.
Could this be Dixon's plans for the Impulse pilots??
Pax priorities are price and/or schedule first. The airlines "safety level" is a long way down the track - unless of course one of the airlines being considered has had a previously extremely poor Safety record eg. Korean & Garuda.
It's about standards and known qualities. You don't get that with off the street hires.
Any new off the street hires would similarly be processed through the QF system, initially, by QF trainers and checkers.
A few lcc's (eg. Cathay Cargo, Air Japan, Freedom) have gone down this road - "off the streeters" trained by the incumbent mainliners, but paid substantially less, until sufficient numbers of new hires then totally replace the mainliners.
At a future date this cheaper labour is then trickle fed back into the mainline.
Could this be Dixon's plans for the Impulse pilots??
Join Date: Jun 2001
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Jake,
you raise an interesting point.
If new joiners are to be QF S/O's does this mean that they will be taking a pay drop to be F/O's in Skimpy? Given the Australian experience, how many will jump at this 'opportunity'?
Or, are you saying that new joiners will be S/O intake pilots off the street selected to join the LCC. If so, presumably they will be selected for the LCC based on experience i.e. an ex Ansett 737 driver would be a logical choice. However, if in the LCC they are to be paid lower wages than mainline, then these new LCC F/O's will be paid substantially less than their less experienced comrades sitting in the back seat.
Or perhaps, the experienced new hires will be sent to the -400 while the inexperienced new hire s/o's go to the LCC. How then does this enhance safety?
I do not see this purest form you are proposing as a solution (except for those seeking early promotion).
A more cost conscious and logical solution needs to be employed. I agree that using a structure of mainline crews provides the ability to grow and cover shortages ala Australian Cairns basings, however, I think AIPA and the company will need to look outside the square in order to create a long term solutionto the crewing of this airline.
IMHO whilst using QF crews as a basis, the LCC will need to look to its own direct recruitment. Even if these pilots are coralled within the LCC unless and until they are selected into mainline sic.
you raise an interesting point.
If new joiners are to be QF S/O's does this mean that they will be taking a pay drop to be F/O's in Skimpy? Given the Australian experience, how many will jump at this 'opportunity'?
Or, are you saying that new joiners will be S/O intake pilots off the street selected to join the LCC. If so, presumably they will be selected for the LCC based on experience i.e. an ex Ansett 737 driver would be a logical choice. However, if in the LCC they are to be paid lower wages than mainline, then these new LCC F/O's will be paid substantially less than their less experienced comrades sitting in the back seat.
Or perhaps, the experienced new hires will be sent to the -400 while the inexperienced new hire s/o's go to the LCC. How then does this enhance safety?
I do not see this purest form you are proposing as a solution (except for those seeking early promotion).
A more cost conscious and logical solution needs to be employed. I agree that using a structure of mainline crews provides the ability to grow and cover shortages ala Australian Cairns basings, however, I think AIPA and the company will need to look outside the square in order to create a long term solutionto the crewing of this airline.
IMHO whilst using QF crews as a basis, the LCC will need to look to its own direct recruitment. Even if these pilots are coralled within the LCC unless and until they are selected into mainline sic.
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Come on Jake. What about the runway over run?
None of the subsids have had that " happen to them". I must be missing something here. The indoctrination seems to work oh so well!!
Pete Conrad are you out there? Looking forward to your next informative post. DM
None of the subsids have had that " happen to them". I must be missing something here. The indoctrination seems to work oh so well!!
Pete Conrad are you out there? Looking forward to your next informative post. DM
All my sources confirm that jakethemuss, funbags and keg are correct in that the LCC will have QF Techcrew so those that wish to fly with this airline send in your CV's to QF. The rates of pay will be low so expect a very quick transition from S/O to the front seat in the new airline. You would have good career progression prospects as your seniority improves and thus would not languish on the same aircraft type flying the same routes for the rest of your career.
The Airline model that they are looking at is the "Impulse" model (which doesn't mean the AirConnex pilots will be flying the aircraft).
My interpretation of GD's intentions is that he has tried for a few years to negotiate with unions about removing restrictive work practices without success so he is now prepared to sacrifice some of the domestic operation to the proposed "low cost/no frills carrier". He particularly is targeting Short Haul Flight Attendants and Ramp staff to have them multi skilled (on lower wages) as at Virgin Blue. There will be a "Transmission of Buisness" from domestic mainline to the new airline and it will be interesting to see how the concerned unions and QF management battle this out in the Industrial Relations Court. In the long term I could see QF mainline becoming a purely international airline again with the new LCC taking over the entire domestic arena.
A lot of pain for a large number of people, but with market forces as they currently are, I don't see any way of preventing these major changes.
GB
The Airline model that they are looking at is the "Impulse" model (which doesn't mean the AirConnex pilots will be flying the aircraft).
My interpretation of GD's intentions is that he has tried for a few years to negotiate with unions about removing restrictive work practices without success so he is now prepared to sacrifice some of the domestic operation to the proposed "low cost/no frills carrier". He particularly is targeting Short Haul Flight Attendants and Ramp staff to have them multi skilled (on lower wages) as at Virgin Blue. There will be a "Transmission of Buisness" from domestic mainline to the new airline and it will be interesting to see how the concerned unions and QF management battle this out in the Industrial Relations Court. In the long term I could see QF mainline becoming a purely international airline again with the new LCC taking over the entire domestic arena.
A lot of pain for a large number of people, but with market forces as they currently are, I don't see any way of preventing these major changes.
GB
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Dreamin'
Muss
You're dreamin' about the safety angle old son.
Many good pilots with enough experience to matter have been inducted into numerous quality airlines, worldwide, with no detrimental effect to safety standards of the new or established airline that took them on.
True, a small percentage of such pilots retain a firm hold on their Linus blanket ex-SOP's with annoying and dated "we did it this way in X" comments.
Rarely lasts long.
Fact is, there are many quality drivers around who are willing and able to come home.
Whether Skippy (sounds more professional than Skimpy, don't you think?) takes advantage of that is something I am certainly not privy to.
Are you? Be honest now.
As for decrying 'outsiders' as less safe than Qantas pilots, that's a proven fable.
Compare Cathay Cargo's safety record with Cathay Pacific's.
The former was crewed by new-hires direct into the LHS on start-up as ASL, and that hasn't affected mainline's safety record at all.
Another glaring fact is that Australian are finding it very hard to crew the planes that are required in their business growth plans.
Failure to attract the right candidates is going to see outside recruitment. The former is a safety issue, straight from the horse's mouth, and so it rests with the hiring staff to pick the right people, then train them to Q's way of doing things. Not much to it really, though some would like to think so.
If you add Australian's requirements to Skippy's, with its minimum 23 airframes in a 12 month period, you've got a lot of pilots needed, just like the Cathay Cargo start-up ASL.
Not meaning to be nasty, but dream on; mainline ain't looking good for either the continued Australian growth or for Skippy's start-up requirements.
But hey, I've been wrong before. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, so we'll just have to wait and see.
This is an Outsider's opinion.
You're dreamin' about the safety angle old son.
Many good pilots with enough experience to matter have been inducted into numerous quality airlines, worldwide, with no detrimental effect to safety standards of the new or established airline that took them on.
True, a small percentage of such pilots retain a firm hold on their Linus blanket ex-SOP's with annoying and dated "we did it this way in X" comments.
Rarely lasts long.
Fact is, there are many quality drivers around who are willing and able to come home.
Whether Skippy (sounds more professional than Skimpy, don't you think?) takes advantage of that is something I am certainly not privy to.
Are you? Be honest now.
As for decrying 'outsiders' as less safe than Qantas pilots, that's a proven fable.
Compare Cathay Cargo's safety record with Cathay Pacific's.
The former was crewed by new-hires direct into the LHS on start-up as ASL, and that hasn't affected mainline's safety record at all.
Another glaring fact is that Australian are finding it very hard to crew the planes that are required in their business growth plans.
Failure to attract the right candidates is going to see outside recruitment. The former is a safety issue, straight from the horse's mouth, and so it rests with the hiring staff to pick the right people, then train them to Q's way of doing things. Not much to it really, though some would like to think so.
If you add Australian's requirements to Skippy's, with its minimum 23 airframes in a 12 month period, you've got a lot of pilots needed, just like the Cathay Cargo start-up ASL.
Not meaning to be nasty, but dream on; mainline ain't looking good for either the continued Australian growth or for Skippy's start-up requirements.
But hey, I've been wrong before. The proof of the pudding is in the eating, so we'll just have to wait and see.
This is an Outsider's opinion.
Last edited by Life as a journey; 19th Oct 2003 at 13:35.
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As I said, I deal in what I know to be true.
I have not slagged off at anyone Douglas about records but I suggest you take a look inward. Don't go there.
Journey man, I am much closer to this than you would possibly know.
It will be crewed by Mainline pilots. Life is a negotiation.
Sometimes self acclaimed professionals act in such an unprofessional manner.
P.S. Australian will not be hiring off the street.
I have not slagged off at anyone Douglas about records but I suggest you take a look inward. Don't go there.
Journey man, I am much closer to this than you would possibly know.
It will be crewed by Mainline pilots. Life is a negotiation.
Sometimes self acclaimed professionals act in such an unprofessional manner.
P.S. Australian will not be hiring off the street.
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Mine is a vested interest, as I'd like the opportunity to crew the Skippy or Australian planes.
Doubtless, if you are so placed you know more than me, but I'm willing to hold my breath.
By the way, no hard feelings are there Jake?
What's all this about self-acclaimed professionals?
Doubtless, if you are so placed you know more than me, but I'm willing to hold my breath.
By the way, no hard feelings are there Jake?
What's all this about self-acclaimed professionals?
Advantages continued.
6- QF Low Cost crewed independantly (F/As and pilots) raises the paper value of the airline,aiding independant capital raising in a few years or increasing the price if it is flogged off to assist struggling mainline businesses. Don't laugh!
7- Another Airbus deal of the century for leased 321s'. The expertise on the market far greater than within QF. 89ers have introduced these aircraft into leading airlines around the world for the last 15years, are in senior positions and may want to come home in a fashion similar to VB. There are hundreds of other Australian pilots crewing these aircraft abroad as well as the exAnsett expertise.
Jake the Muss
Your wages are partially under pressure because QF recruits with some disregard to experience. This is contrary to market forces and leaves a pool ofexperience for the Jetconnects and Pacific Blues, aswell a pool further abroad.
Direct Entry pilots would go some way addressing the market, creating a dearth in some areas, as opposed to the usual QF practice of training many inexperienced (hours and endorsement wise) and accentuating market forces.
6- QF Low Cost crewed independantly (F/As and pilots) raises the paper value of the airline,aiding independant capital raising in a few years or increasing the price if it is flogged off to assist struggling mainline businesses. Don't laugh!
7- Another Airbus deal of the century for leased 321s'. The expertise on the market far greater than within QF. 89ers have introduced these aircraft into leading airlines around the world for the last 15years, are in senior positions and may want to come home in a fashion similar to VB. There are hundreds of other Australian pilots crewing these aircraft abroad as well as the exAnsett expertise.
Jake the Muss
Your wages are partially under pressure because QF recruits with some disregard to experience. This is contrary to market forces and leaves a pool ofexperience for the Jetconnects and Pacific Blues, aswell a pool further abroad.
Direct Entry pilots would go some way addressing the market, creating a dearth in some areas, as opposed to the usual QF practice of training many inexperienced (hours and endorsement wise) and accentuating market forces.
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Jetconnect FOM used to read:
"Jetconnect had applied to CASA for an International AOC"
Latest ammendment reads:
"Jetconnect now holds an International AOC issued by CASA"
Why would they bother unless there was a valid reason?
Who is to say that the new LLC will be based around one operator. ie. Impulse. The entire operation could be made up by using a number of operators under contractual agreement.
Either way, I would suggest there are people in higher places loaded with a fist full of Vaseline ready to give us all another good reaming.
My guess is there's a big fist full coming your way Jake.
"Jetconnect had applied to CASA for an International AOC"
Latest ammendment reads:
"Jetconnect now holds an International AOC issued by CASA"
Why would they bother unless there was a valid reason?
Who is to say that the new LLC will be based around one operator. ie. Impulse. The entire operation could be made up by using a number of operators under contractual agreement.
Either way, I would suggest there are people in higher places loaded with a fist full of Vaseline ready to give us all another good reaming.
My guess is there's a big fist full coming your way Jake.
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Cabin Crew shortlisters...
Yes, yes guys and girls, I know - slightly off the topic - but possibly quite close.
Can anyone (maybe Jake or Pete) tell us what will happen to the 300-odd Cabin Crew shortlisters currenly still waiting? Will they be used to crew Skimpy - or will they call for off the street (or MAM) recruits?
Long Haul guys - are YOU in need of more crew in the near future, or did we spend all of that money and time (almost 12 months ago now) heading interstate for nothing?
With our renewal of the waitlist time approaching very quickly once again, things aren't lookin good....or are they??
Any info greatly appreciated guys!
Can anyone (maybe Jake or Pete) tell us what will happen to the 300-odd Cabin Crew shortlisters currenly still waiting? Will they be used to crew Skimpy - or will they call for off the street (or MAM) recruits?
Long Haul guys - are YOU in need of more crew in the near future, or did we spend all of that money and time (almost 12 months ago now) heading interstate for nothing?
With our renewal of the waitlist time approaching very quickly once again, things aren't lookin good....or are they??
Any info greatly appreciated guys!
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um, Jake are you including those fellas involved in the BBK thingy in that list of highly trained and quality professionals that are so well thought of throughout the avaition world ?
GD on 2UE Friday afternoon. The LCC will NOT be staffed from existing Qantas operations, pilots, F/A's, ground staff. He said there are plenty of retrenched and eager new starts looking for an opportunity.
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320 no way
Sorry Gandenburg but just can see the the A320 being apart of the deal. Why introduce yet another type into the fleet it will start to look more and more like AN. No spares, crews new sims, training dept the list just goes on. Its a furfy to get Boeing back to the table. A320 your dreamin. Who crews the 800's well thats any ones guess. I personally lean toward mainline still as I think AIPA will burn bridges to make sure that they will. But then again I thought that they were going to get A320's back when AN fell over. Something about where Qantas wanted their Jumbo's parked changed their minds.
Ozflyboy sorry but new recruits for skimpy, as for long haul hang in there as I see more slots in the future.
As a great man once said arrrrg Pigs Arse
Ozflyboy sorry but new recruits for skimpy, as for long haul hang in there as I see more slots in the future.
As a great man once said arrrrg Pigs Arse
Evertonian
Trusta Buster for the good oil!!!
Okay, here's the fleet chaps.
INTL : 744 / A380 / A330
DOM : 738 / 739X (launch customer)
Sorry, no A320's or 717's & the 767's are going too.
Next topic please!
INTL : 744 / A380 / A330
DOM : 738 / 739X (launch customer)
Sorry, no A320's or 717's & the 767's are going too.
Next topic please!
Thread Starter
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AAP
17:43 AEST Sun 19 Oct 2003
No sell-offs: Qantas
Qantas Airways Ltd has ruled out spinning off parts of its business, for now anyway, despite a series of measures to cut costs and stay competitive.
"We have no intention at this point to be floating any of our businesses off," chairman Margaret Jackson told the Nine Network's Business Sunday program.
But she would not rule out such a move in future.
"It doesn't mean that sometime in the future your intention changes or circumstances change, or opportunities emerge, but at the moment we are very happy with the mix of businesses that we have," she said.
"We think there is some great opportunities for growth in those businesses."
Australia's dominant airline last week said it would launch a low cost airline next May, to take on domestic rival Virgin Blue Airlines Pty Ltd.
It also outlined a strategy to cut costs by $1 billion over the next two years, involving splitting the company into 10 operating units with separate leadership.
Analysts said both moves were sound defensive measures, largely influenced by the growing market share of Virgin Blue, which now has about 30 per cent of the domestic market.
But analysts were also disappointed the airline gave scant detail on how it planned to execute the strategy.
Ms Jackson denied the head-on challenge to Virgin Blue was not an act of "desperation".
"I don't think it (has) a hint of desperation," she said.
"It is just us looking at the market, looking at what we can do to service the market better, what can we do to underpin tourism in Australia.
"Starting a low cost carrier, what we know is that people are sensitive to price and we believe that we might be able to also stimulate the demand for travel."
Qantas shares fell three cents to $3.55 on Friday.
============================================
17:43 AEST Sun 19 Oct 2003
No sell-offs: Qantas
Qantas Airways Ltd has ruled out spinning off parts of its business, for now anyway, despite a series of measures to cut costs and stay competitive.
"We have no intention at this point to be floating any of our businesses off," chairman Margaret Jackson told the Nine Network's Business Sunday program.
But she would not rule out such a move in future.
"It doesn't mean that sometime in the future your intention changes or circumstances change, or opportunities emerge, but at the moment we are very happy with the mix of businesses that we have," she said.
"We think there is some great opportunities for growth in those businesses."
Australia's dominant airline last week said it would launch a low cost airline next May, to take on domestic rival Virgin Blue Airlines Pty Ltd.
It also outlined a strategy to cut costs by $1 billion over the next two years, involving splitting the company into 10 operating units with separate leadership.
Analysts said both moves were sound defensive measures, largely influenced by the growing market share of Virgin Blue, which now has about 30 per cent of the domestic market.
But analysts were also disappointed the airline gave scant detail on how it planned to execute the strategy.
Ms Jackson denied the head-on challenge to Virgin Blue was not an act of "desperation".
"I don't think it (has) a hint of desperation," she said.
"It is just us looking at the market, looking at what we can do to service the market better, what can we do to underpin tourism in Australia.
"Starting a low cost carrier, what we know is that people are sensitive to price and we believe that we might be able to also stimulate the demand for travel."
Qantas shares fell three cents to $3.55 on Friday.
============================================