Security Gone Too Far?
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Security Gone Too Far?
Reports this morning that no visitors at all, only pax, will be allowed through security to boarding lounges for Australian domestic flights, as has always been the case for international flights.
While I do realise that we must have security, even more so since 9/11, IMHO this is going too far.
Sure as now, everyone must go through security, but what will this achieve?
The hijackers/terrorists on 9/11 all had tickets.
While we MUST have security, all this is doing is meaning that the terrorists win, because we have to change our way of life so much, because of them.
Apart from all the people that like to see other people off, what about unaccompanied children? Or handicapped pax that need assistance?
While I do realise that we must have security, even more so since 9/11, IMHO this is going too far.
Sure as now, everyone must go through security, but what will this achieve?
The hijackers/terrorists on 9/11 all had tickets.
While we MUST have security, all this is doing is meaning that the terrorists win, because we have to change our way of life so much, because of them.
Apart from all the people that like to see other people off, what about unaccompanied children? Or handicapped pax that need assistance?
I agree.
Its not so much a matter of security going too far, as to being ill focused and stoopid.
Unfortunately we are stuck with it, probably forever. Seasoned travellers can easily spot the holes in the security process, my belief is that most of the measures are window dressing to make the average punter think that the gummit is doing summit about it.
Its not so much a matter of security going too far, as to being ill focused and stoopid.
Unfortunately we are stuck with it, probably forever. Seasoned travellers can easily spot the holes in the security process, my belief is that most of the measures are window dressing to make the average punter think that the gummit is doing summit about it.
All of the food outlets are past the security checkpoints, where would all the airprt workers eat, besides, the airport is allways putting on radio ads to come and shop at the airport, both international and domestic. T2 even has a funstion center which is airside.
Moderate, Modest & Mild.
Actually I personally don't have a problem with the new proposal - that is the way things work in many other countries, and so perhaps it is Oz that is out of step here.
It will certainly take a lot of pressure off the security goons, and will no doubt aid in giving more on-time departures, due to the queues being reduced.
airsupport does raise a couple of valid exceptions, and so perhaps special consideration might be given in those instances to allow accompanying assistants and parents through. Generally however, the number of handicapped and unaccompanieds is miniscule, and so shouldn't add too much extra pressure to the system.
I'm sorry folks, but I'll give this one my "thumbs up", simply because it will dramatically unload the current system in an area where pax numbers are forecast to rise dramatically.
You want to buy a full uniform, DR - try eBay, there are usually one or two being sold off there. As for the ID, they aren`t too hard to manufacture either. Perhaps some of us underestimate the resources that potential, well-trained future terrorists have access to. It would not surprise me in the least, if at some time in the future we learn that a team of 5 or 10 terrorists gain access ALL posing as a crew (cockpit and cabin....male and female)!
Yes, the system certainly IS frustrating for those of us who work inside, and to that end it is up to the airlines and the security people to arrange designated crew access areas, including deadheading crews.
It will certainly take a lot of pressure off the security goons, and will no doubt aid in giving more on-time departures, due to the queues being reduced.
airsupport does raise a couple of valid exceptions, and so perhaps special consideration might be given in those instances to allow accompanying assistants and parents through. Generally however, the number of handicapped and unaccompanieds is miniscule, and so shouldn't add too much extra pressure to the system.
I'm sorry folks, but I'll give this one my "thumbs up", simply because it will dramatically unload the current system in an area where pax numbers are forecast to rise dramatically.
You want to buy a full uniform, DR - try eBay, there are usually one or two being sold off there. As for the ID, they aren`t too hard to manufacture either. Perhaps some of us underestimate the resources that potential, well-trained future terrorists have access to. It would not surprise me in the least, if at some time in the future we learn that a team of 5 or 10 terrorists gain access ALL posing as a crew (cockpit and cabin....male and female)!
Yes, the system certainly IS frustrating for those of us who work inside, and to that end it is up to the airlines and the security people to arrange designated crew access areas, including deadheading crews.
Last edited by Kaptin M; 17th Sep 2003 at 10:13.
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It may also significantly delay departures if passengers delay their transit to the gate to say goodbye to friends, relatives, etc.
I agree that security is, in many instances, becoming too reactive and often lacks focus. I say that having been on the receiving end of some truly ridiculous, bureaucratic, and inconsistent security regulations whilst in full uniform and displaying a valid airline ID.
Still, that's life now I guess. I sometimes wonder who's winning the war against terror.
I agree that security is, in many instances, becoming too reactive and often lacks focus. I say that having been on the receiving end of some truly ridiculous, bureaucratic, and inconsistent security regulations whilst in full uniform and displaying a valid airline ID.
Still, that's life now I guess. I sometimes wonder who's winning the war against terror.
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Can anyone explain why when I pass through the Security checkpoint in BNE Domestic Terminal (dead-heading) they insist on inspecting my shaving foam?
What security risk does shaving foam have, leaking or not? Why is it the only check point in Australia that I have been through that insists on this?
I ask them "are you looking for security items or dangerous goods?"
Blank look
I mention dangerous good in excepted quantities (so that even if volitile liquids leak they pose no serious risk).
Blank look
I still try hard to respect Security Personnel, but they don't make it easy sometimes.
What security risk does shaving foam have, leaking or not? Why is it the only check point in Australia that I have been through that insists on this?
I ask them "are you looking for security items or dangerous goods?"
Blank look
I mention dangerous good in excepted quantities (so that even if volitile liquids leak they pose no serious risk).
Blank look
I still try hard to respect Security Personnel, but they don't make it easy sometimes.
Whispering "T" Jet
Not sure if it is the security or cost of providing the security.
Figure that if every travelling passenger has one or two persons seeing him off that may equate to 280 well wishers farewelling 140 passengers. That's 420 bodies (one flight ONLY) that have to be screened through security, which equals more manpower at the screening stations or the flights would never leave on time.
Figure that if every travelling passenger has one or two persons seeing him off that may equate to 280 well wishers farewelling 140 passengers. That's 420 bodies (one flight ONLY) that have to be screened through security, which equals more manpower at the screening stations or the flights would never leave on time.
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Just saw an item on the news about this, they were now saying what about unaccompanied minors, and handicapped people, maybe they read PPRuNe. 
They also pointed out, as someone did here, about the shops.
The shops are already screaming about all the business they will lose, after paying very high leases for shops after the security points, they will now lose the majority of their customers.
I think all of us could relate some instances of very bad security, I know I could , however I really think this is going too far.
How many Aircraft have ever been hijacked by visitors to the Airport?
I think you will find it has been mainly passengers with valid tickets. Or the odd Crew member.
They also pointed out, as someone did here, about the shops.
The shops are already screaming about all the business they will lose, after paying very high leases for shops after the security points, they will now lose the majority of their customers.
I think all of us could relate some instances of very bad security, I know I could
, however I really think this is going too far.How many Aircraft have ever been hijacked by visitors to the Airport?
I think you will find it has been mainly passengers with valid tickets.
Or the odd Crew member.
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3 Holer,
I think you have hit the nail fairly on the head. Anything to cut costs these days. Who cares how the travelling public and their friends and airport staff are treated. Just cut costs.
Reminds me of HKG at Kai Tak when the airport started to get crowded. They removed all seating from the airport to disencourage friends from seeing passengers off.
As to the poster re BNE security. I think you will find that security in BNE has always been referred to asQUAINT
I think you have hit the nail fairly on the head. Anything to cut costs these days. Who cares how the travelling public and their friends and airport staff are treated. Just cut costs.
Reminds me of HKG at Kai Tak when the airport started to get crowded. They removed all seating from the airport to disencourage friends from seeing passengers off.
As to the poster re BNE security. I think you will find that security in BNE has always been referred to asQUAINT
It would be interesting to know just how many visitors the average passenger does have greeting/farewelling him/her.
I suspect not very many at all.
On the rare occasions when I have to drop off or pick up a passenger at Sydney domestic terminals I make a point of NOT going into the terminal, because the car-parking fees are a rip-off.
I suspect not very many at all.
On the rare occasions when I have to drop off or pick up a passenger at Sydney domestic terminals I make a point of NOT going into the terminal, because the car-parking fees are a rip-off.
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As I have maintained for a long time, the security that Australia is adopting post 11/9 (NOTE THE AUSTRALIAN DATE FORMAT, AUSTRALIA DON'T BECOME AMERICA) is over the top.
Australians have been gripped by ysteria that is promoted by the security industry for commercial reasons and a government that is using this campaign of terror-terror to revoke our civil liberties one by one.
Don't be fooled, making flying harder and less fun for customers is not the answer to improving security on aircraft.
By the way, what terrorism are they protecting against can someone remind me what the last legitimate terrorist attack against Australia was?
That's right, there hasn't been one..........
Australians have been gripped by ysteria that is promoted by the security industry for commercial reasons and a government that is using this campaign of terror-terror to revoke our civil liberties one by one.
Don't be fooled, making flying harder and less fun for customers is not the answer to improving security on aircraft.
By the way, what terrorism are they protecting against can someone remind me what the last legitimate terrorist attack against Australia was?
That's right, there hasn't been one..........
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Think of how much money the respective Airport Authorities will lose in carpark revenue. About half if you think about it.
Is this revenue pivotal in their budgets?
Will they try and recoup it from yet again the fare paying passenger??
How about the hoardes of people who are now going to be lined up at the 2 min. dropoff zone, which will now be grossly inadequate.
Bet that'll slow down the check-in rate, OTD rate thus no better
K
Is this revenue pivotal in their budgets?
Will they try and recoup it from yet again the fare paying passenger??
How about the hoardes of people who are now going to be lined up at the 2 min. dropoff zone, which will now be grossly inadequate.
Bet that'll slow down the check-in rate, OTD rate thus no better
K
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Cost Cutting.......
How true, how very true.
My experiences of the security at world airports and those of oz is that labour is the big cost and the one to reduce.
How to reduce this when you have to have "warm bodies" in certain positions (screaning, bag checking and strip searching for those who need it...pick me please!!!
).....
HIRE ONLY MINIMUM WAGE STAFF
So only the "blank look" people who do not have the brain power to see outside of the box are hired.
For example, SYD Intl transit x-ray - the security staff at this security post looked and acted like he should have been "bouncing" outside a lower sociaoeconomic group night club in Redfern. His instructuions to pax (mostly tourists) were to say the least gruff, demanding and intollerant. Don't get started about the female security staff at MEL - they're even worse!!!!
"Rules are for the blind adherence of fools and for the guidence of wise men"
One exception to this was Kansai when stopped at x-ray due to my leatherman in my flt bag (I was operating crew) the supervisor was on the scene quickly and stated..."no problem you go through - what you going to do, stab yourself??"
Who would of thought that statement from the Japanese - the masters of "blinkered in the box thinking"
My experiences of the security at world airports and those of oz is that labour is the big cost and the one to reduce.
How to reduce this when you have to have "warm bodies" in certain positions (screaning, bag checking and strip searching for those who need it...pick me please!!!
).....HIRE ONLY MINIMUM WAGE STAFF
So only the "blank look" people who do not have the brain power to see outside of the box are hired.
For example, SYD Intl transit x-ray - the security staff at this security post looked and acted like he should have been "bouncing" outside a lower sociaoeconomic group night club in Redfern. His instructuions to pax (mostly tourists) were to say the least gruff, demanding and intollerant. Don't get started about the female security staff at MEL - they're even worse!!!!
"Rules are for the blind adherence of fools and for the guidence of wise men"
One exception to this was Kansai when stopped at x-ray due to my leatherman in my flt bag (I was operating crew) the supervisor was on the scene quickly and stated..."no problem you go through - what you going to do, stab yourself??"
Who would of thought that statement from the Japanese - the masters of "blinkered in the box thinking"
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Can anyone explain why when I pass through the Security checkpoint in BNE Domestic Terminal (dead-heading) they insist on inspecting my shaving foam?
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ABC News Online
Sydney airport chief critical of security plan
The head of the Sydney Airport Corporation (SACL) says security at domestic airports would not be improved by only allowing ticket holders into departure terminals.
The Federal Department of Transport is reportedly considering the move under new anti-terrorism plans.
But SACL chief executive Max Moore-Wilton says airports would have to radically changed their structure to accommodate the plan.
He says security would not be improved because it would not necessarily stop anyone who posed a threat from boarding an aircraft.
"At the moment when you catch a domestic aircraft once you've purchased your ticket you can give it to anybody because it's not the same as going out internationally, you've got no passports, you're not actually checked. So that implies a whole new regime of checking," he said.
============================================
Sydney airport chief critical of security plan
The head of the Sydney Airport Corporation (SACL) says security at domestic airports would not be improved by only allowing ticket holders into departure terminals.
The Federal Department of Transport is reportedly considering the move under new anti-terrorism plans.
But SACL chief executive Max Moore-Wilton says airports would have to radically changed their structure to accommodate the plan.
He says security would not be improved because it would not necessarily stop anyone who posed a threat from boarding an aircraft.
"At the moment when you catch a domestic aircraft once you've purchased your ticket you can give it to anybody because it's not the same as going out internationally, you've got no passports, you're not actually checked. So that implies a whole new regime of checking," he said.
============================================
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By the way, what terrorism are they protecting against can someone remind me what the last legitimate terrorist attack against Australia was?
That's right, there hasn't been one..........
That's right, there hasn't been one..........
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Imagine if you'd just paid a gazillion dollars for the franchise of full tummies eatery ay SYD domestic, and then they locked out upwards of 50% of the passing traffic!!! 
Besides that, it's overkill!
Besides that, it's overkill!
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I note also on my last couple of flights that meals have gone back to plastic knives. Nice sharp steel-pronged fork, but at least you won't get hurt with that plastic butter knife.
Another beauty at a security screening gate in the US with a rather innocent hand-tool I'd bought (complete in packaging and with receipt):
Guard: 'I'm sorry sir, no tools permitted through the gate'
Me: 'but it's still in its package - I clearly bought it for myself'
Guard: 'It's not permitted sir'
Me (asking the $64,000 question): 'So what, pray tell, am I going to do with a ring spanner?'
Guard: 'You can't carry that on sir, it'll have to be checked in'
Me: 'Can I carry on this thumping great heavy duty Maglite torch?'
Guard: 'Yessir'
Me (standing next to bemused Captain at the time): 'So you're happy with my ID and who I am?'
Guard: 'Absolutely, sir'
Me: 'And you don't mind the fact that I have a crash axe and a baton on the flight deck?'
Guard:' No sir, but I can't let you on with the tool'
Me: 'Uh huh. I guess I'll be checking it in then'
Another beauty at a security screening gate in the US with a rather innocent hand-tool I'd bought (complete in packaging and with receipt):
Guard: 'I'm sorry sir, no tools permitted through the gate'
Me: 'but it's still in its package - I clearly bought it for myself'
Guard: 'It's not permitted sir'
Me (asking the $64,000 question): 'So what, pray tell, am I going to do with a ring spanner?'
Guard: 'You can't carry that on sir, it'll have to be checked in'
Me: 'Can I carry on this thumping great heavy duty Maglite torch?'
Guard: 'Yessir'
Me (standing next to bemused Captain at the time): 'So you're happy with my ID and who I am?'
Guard: 'Absolutely, sir'
Me: 'And you don't mind the fact that I have a crash axe and a baton on the flight deck?'
Guard:' No sir, but I can't let you on with the tool'
Me: 'Uh huh. I guess I'll be checking it in then'
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Luke,
If some dude in thongs and king gees whacking an overgrown bunger in a bin near an international hotel was terrorism.......lets face it, it wasn't terrorism in todays context of the word.
As for the Bali bombing, it wasn't a terrorist attack against Australia, it was an attack against the West. The government has done it's best to frame it as a personal attack on Australia, as it suits their agenda, and I think that the PM would love to think that his little country rated highly enough in world events that it could attract terrorism. The Australian casualties in Bali were not the main aim, Amrosi said that himself.
So I still ask, from what is all this over zealous security protecting us, show me the empirical evidence that we should all live our lives in fear because some minority religeous fanatics flew aeroplanes in to buildings half a world away.
Can someone also please tell me how infra red cameras are going to sure up security on the harbour bridge?
How ironic is it that our lives are now controlled by people who think that a ring spanner is more dangerous as a weapon than a maglite?
If some dude in thongs and king gees whacking an overgrown bunger in a bin near an international hotel was terrorism.......lets face it, it wasn't terrorism in todays context of the word.
As for the Bali bombing, it wasn't a terrorist attack against Australia, it was an attack against the West. The government has done it's best to frame it as a personal attack on Australia, as it suits their agenda, and I think that the PM would love to think that his little country rated highly enough in world events that it could attract terrorism. The Australian casualties in Bali were not the main aim, Amrosi said that himself.
So I still ask, from what is all this over zealous security protecting us, show me the empirical evidence that we should all live our lives in fear because some minority religeous fanatics flew aeroplanes in to buildings half a world away.
Can someone also please tell me how infra red cameras are going to sure up security on the harbour bridge?
How ironic is it that our lives are now controlled by people who think that a ring spanner is more dangerous as a weapon than a maglite?
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The trouble with all this security, is that they have such set proceedures, that they don't notice anything out of the ordinary.
I had a similar experience to DutchRoll a few years ago at JFK. I was going to travel with the Aircraft ex JFK, so went through security with the Crew. I had several tools with me for the trip, and was not allowed through security. So I just went back through the staff access to the Aircraft at the gate, left the tools on board, then went through security again with no trouble, then back to the Aircraft and my tools. Everyone at security was happy, didn't even ask where the tools were.
Some years ago now, used to overnight a lot at CKS Airport in Taipei, they were so efficient with their security, customs and immigration, but so set in their ways. The first time this happened it was accidental, but kept doing it to see how long before they woke up, they never did.
On arrival I would leave the Aircraft with the rest of the Crew and go through customs and immigration, then while they went to the Hotel, I would go back to the Aircraft to supervise China Airlines doing the maintenance on our Aircraft. I left ALL my belongings on the Aircraft until finished, then someone from China Airlines would drive me to their hangar to do the paperwork, then drive me straight to the Hotel.
So my bags never went through customs (NOT that I had anything illegal, but I could have), and none of them ever said anything, even though every time the rest of the Crew would have bags and I had none at all. A few times they were even searching ALL Crew bags on a particular day, still nobody queried why one person had no bags at all.
SADLY, I doubt if these people would be able to stop a determined terrorist.
I had a similar experience to DutchRoll a few years ago at JFK. I was going to travel with the Aircraft ex JFK, so went through security with the Crew. I had several tools with me for the trip, and was not allowed through security. So I just went back through the staff access to the Aircraft at the gate, left the tools on board, then went through security again with no trouble, then back to the Aircraft and my tools. Everyone at security was happy, didn't even ask where the tools were.
Some years ago now, used to overnight a lot at CKS Airport in Taipei, they were so efficient with their security, customs and immigration, but so set in their ways. The first time this happened it was accidental, but kept doing it to see how long before they woke up, they never did.
On arrival I would leave the Aircraft with the rest of the Crew and go through customs and immigration, then while they went to the Hotel, I would go back to the Aircraft to supervise China Airlines doing the maintenance on our Aircraft. I left ALL my belongings on the Aircraft until finished, then someone from China Airlines would drive me to their hangar to do the paperwork, then drive me straight to the Hotel.
So my bags never went through customs (NOT that I had anything illegal, but I could have), and none of them ever said anything, even though every time the rest of the Crew would have bags and I had none at all. A few times they were even searching ALL Crew bags on a particular day, still nobody queried why one person had no bags at all.
SADLY, I doubt if these people would be able to stop a determined terrorist.