NATS Pay Rise for 2009
 

Has anyone heard anything about the negotiations?

...should this be in the NATS forum? possibly?

Colleagues, do not despair, our powder is still dry !

Ha, bloody, ha !

I wonder what pittance we will settle for this time around.

Yes it should, perhaps PPRuNe Radar is on holiday (or at work).

So what is the point of having a NATS forum on PPRuNe which only NATS staff can access, or ZOOKER are you saying the NATS forum should be made public?

Surely the subject of pay is one such subject that should be discussed in the private NATS forum.

Zooker,

I personally think it should be in the NATS private forum, PPP or not.

However, I am happy for any Tom, Dick or Harriet to read about it because as pointed out above by kinglouis, NATS runs on the goodwill of its staff. The operational side cannot work otherwise. I for one have no qualms about asking the company for recognition of this fact.

They want to steal our pension and give us a 0% pay rise... they can try, but it will be their downfall.

For the original question - I have heard that the Union wants to settle the pension debate first, before moving onto the pay deal. Seems logical - the pension is a longer term thing and is ultimately the more important of the two.

I think this will be a very interesting time for both negotiations.its funny when there are loads of rumours flying about. everyone has heard something different.

pay rises this year
 

Firstly I agree with most people, this should be in the NATS forum I thinks. PPP doesnt mean the public need to know all about whats in our pay packets. If the company want to declare it, thats its decision

i think this coming year is a big year for all us NATS employees... The threats to our terms and conditions are very real, and we should all (ATCOs and other staff) think seriously about what the company is offering, what the company is trying to take away, and whether we want to let it. You know whatever the company try and do with the pension, there will be some variety of bung thrown in, to try and lure us! I think the annual pay rise may be that bung...

The two should not be in any way attached to each other, and the union will hopefully hold to that! Pay is seperate from the pension, and if there was a bung it'd need to be bloody big... lol!

As for the goodwill of staff, well if NATS decided to try and take away something we treasure (our pension for example) then why would we conntinue to do more than our Minimum Unit Competency... Its just not in our interests. Wonder how TC East will survive for example?? There is no TC East... Without the cross validations, there is no NATS... The company knows this, and needs to tread carefully I thinks. Why would we ever need to strike like the french or the germans? we can stop the nats operation by simply doing our jobs and nothing more...

Without getting silly figures, how much of a payrise would you be happy to accept?

Inflation atleast?

:ugh:

121.375

I'll take RPI as a minimum RPI +1% would be even better!!!

we will surely get rpi wont we? (is that a silly assumption)

The thing about giving up ojti, extra validation, lce tickets etc is that when you have done it or even just threatened it , where do you go form there?
strike action would be painful, if only because public support would be next to none as tv pictures showed people turning up to picket in their M3's, porsche's, merc's etc.
In my opinion the pay negotiaions are nowhere near as important as pension talks. we could survive on our current wages and defer talks for one or two years as long as we dont cock up our pension!!!!!

Firstly, I would agree in the current climate that RPI plus 1% would be a fair offer.

ANOTHER THING

I didn't say that splitting the pay rise is necessarily a bad idea.

However, the minimum amount that is pensionable would have to be RPI, because if not your standard of living beyond pension age would not be keeping pace with the cost of living. Secondly, if you were drawing a pension from the fund, you automatically recieve an RPI increase anyway so they would be potentially doing better than those sustaining the fund.

Also, everybody knows that come next pay round, management would try and make the pensionable amount smaller yet again!

the cumulative effect of these seemingly small amounts would be significant further down the line.

I'm all for playing our part in keeping the fund open, but NATS need to make more of an effort now and realise the value of keeping employees happy!

For the life of me I can't understand the mentality of anyone who thinks we should be getting less than RPI+1% as an absolute bare minimum.

Since the last pay deal, we have each year worked more and more traffic. We have had it shoved down our throats that NATS last year was awarded 'Best ANSP in the world'. We have seen the likes of the Middle East, South Africa, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, Germany & Ireland start trying to recruit experienced controllers from overseas. We have also seen NATS advertising for experienced ATCOs along with falling numbers getting out of the College, and even fewer actually validating. This suggests to me that each year we as ATCOs get in an increasingly stronger position and so we should have approached the latest pay negotiations with that mind. And let's not forget that NATS is actually posting profits now.

As for the Pension. The day the politicians who said 'Our Skies are not for sale' give up their gold-plated final salary pensions should be the day that we agree to give up ours.

No one is saying we WANT less than RPI+1% but what we want and what we're gonna get are 2 totally different things and i dont think people should be thinking we're automatically going to get anything as good as the last pay deal...rather we should be preparing for the worst.
Dont forget, NATS got their fingers badly burnt last time by agreeing to that RPI+ x% figure...can you see seriously see them doing that again? Barron may be many things but stupid he ain't.

Why should we be preparing for the worst?

How many ATCOs do you know of being made redundant in the latest credit crunch?

Is the demand for ATCOs falling worldwide or rising?

Are NATS or are they not recruiting experienced ATCOs?

How many units are now fully staffed and are running without the need for AAVAs/Sector Closures/Flow Restrictions?

I would suggest that WE have the upper hand in any negotiations NOT management.

Mr 777

NATS are not affected by RPI in terms of what they charge and what they pay their staff, as the route charges are set out on a strict RPI minus formula. So no fingers were burnt as a result of the high RPI figure in SEP 07, as they take in more and pay out more. This of course does have a negative effect for the airlines as there costs increase more.

This is designed to gradually reduce the cost of chargeable units to the airlines, but as traffic generally increases, any reduction in unit cost should have little effect as the basic running costs of the company should remain much the same or even decrease as we reduce the number of centres in the UK and attempt to reduce existing costs (usually in the wrong areas!).

If traffic starts taking a significant downturn, then they/we will have a problem. This is however beyond our control!

Regards

Area52

I think what mr777 is meaning when talking about RPI is;
Off the top of my head, part of the last pay deal was based on the RPI of a certain month last year (August I think) and it turned out that the August RPI was higher than the surrounding months.

I may be wrong but I think that was the case.

NATS have plenty of room to save money by stopping these ridiculous community funds, awards nights and solar panels as a start. These shouldn't be funded whilst they're saying there's a problem with the pension pot.

Earlier posters have already mentioned the tax efficient way of paying into the pension, why won't they do this?

We shouldn't be settling for lower pay rises than normal either when we are the party in-demand. We can save those days for when we the supply demand curve is back in managements favour. Good will is why we have this issue now, by allowing them to stop payments for a period and not returning the favour.

And as somebody said; drop extra tickets, stop overtime. No need to strike. But I wouldnt be against it either. There's a reason why french controllers get cushy hours, pay and conditions and its because they are prepared to show management/government who are in control!

intherealworld talks absolute sense.... i have said before and will say again, we are in a very good position to negotiate, like the french etc... lets not sell ourselves short.
if we get offered a crap deal.. vote NO.
and while the company is still spending £20k upwards for a day at a hotel in southampton rather than using CTC to talk about the new capital airspace, we should be aiming as high as we can

DTY/LKS...that was exactly my point. I completely agree that we should be pushing for RPI as a minimum, partuclarly when money is being wasted left, right and centre on completely pointless initiatives like Vision 2011 or, as Kinglouis & intherealworld say, other cr*p that we could do without.

DTY/LKS

I did actually mention in my post the SEP07 RPI, however I actually think it is the AUG07 RPI which was used, which is published mid September.

RPI minimum pensionable increase, plus a further 1% (pensionable or not to be decided) and for NATS to stop wasting money elsewhere is definitely the way forward.

THE END:)

so the general feeling is RPI +1%... pensionable or not.
anyone on here in the union????

but would the union even ask for that much???
doubtful.
i bet we get some crap 2% offer to vote on with a little note about 'its going to save our pensions'...... the union needs to aim very high and tell 'em that we wont be taking a watered down offer. the amount of money they waste is astronomical and i hear now we have targets to meet next year for validations..... utter crap.
i hope the union has a big set of balls and a huge spine on this one..... we all need to stick together and make management realise they cant take the piss out of us and go on rewarding eachother with lavish bonuses, award nights etc etc.... you wouldnt have seen this before ppp...
lets see what the first offer will be. anyone any idea when thats likely to be??

I trust your trade union is aware of the cost that North Development has cost NATS so far, with no sign of any implementation by March 2009?

Consultation (or a lack of response to concerns) has not gone down too well in my neck of the 'woods'!

If a company wants to shell out £$ million on a project, surely that has to deliver results on time or is NATS just a 'gravy train'? ($, my keyboard is four...kd).

Anyway, good luck with your pay claim. Hopefully this winter won't see your client/income base drop too much as airlines downsize, merge and go iti's up?

and Mr Barrons salary:
contrary to my own comments regarding using the NATS forum

2007:
Basic: £350k
Benefits: £66k
Performance related pay: £157k
Total: £573k

2008:
Basic: £400k (+£50k, +14.3% over 2007)
Benefits: £66k (0 increase over 2007)
Performance related pay: £180k (+£23k, +14.6%)
Total: £646k (+£73k, +12.7%)


...and that's just over one year people. All from NATS' own annual reports available to all and sundry

No they don't! But they do want to change the pension for new recruits - quite a different thing, and rapidly becoming the UK industry 'norm' (realistically, something from which NATS cannot remain immune).

But, as for an RPI + 1% pay award from January 2009, on the basis that traffic is still increasing (at least according to the Company's own Corporate Communications Department and its frequent posts on the NATS intranet...) then arguably, controllers' productivity has also increased and therefore, the pay rise should reflect this achievement.

The fact that an increasing number of aeroplanes might be flying around with less than break-even load factors is irrelevant to the ATC activity and effort required to safely control and separate these aircraft. :hmm: :rolleyes:

and as we have banged on about in earlier threads, by giving newer recruits the $hitti£r deals we buid up resentment, then a few years down the line, when we get outnumbered by the newbies and our own fund doesn't have enough money coming into sustain itself..... we'll all get it in the neck. Nice :\

RPI + 1% or 2% sounds very reasonable compared to Paul Barron’s reported 3 x RPI rise of last year.

Whether the union will ask for it is another matter, they are in my opinion too understanding of the problems faced by NATS’ management.

Paul Barron needs to start understanding his staff’s problems – we are being hit with 35% increases in fuel costs and that is going to feed into the cost of every other thing we buy.

Nobody knows just how far the RPI will climb. Certainly this would be the worst time possible to be locked into a 3 year deal not linked to RPI + n%

Though that is perhaps slightly easier to cope with on a NATS atco salary rather than a national average salary.

I'm not saying we shouldn't get or deserve a pay rise, but a sense of perspective and reality is needed rather than some of the more fanciful suggestions being bandied about here.

From someone who works for Notwork Fail in a similar safety critical industry. The RMT played a reasonable hand this year and we got RPI + and a 2 year deal; mind you our pension contributions are going to rise to about 13% due to various in-house restructurings and take-backs after the fiscal farce of "privitisation". As a taxpayer and contributor to the good guys n gals through flying far too often to see the family in distant lands I believe that you lot deserve everything you can get your paws on, and don't forget the longer you hold out the nicer the backpay sum will be....:ok:

o/t: Some of us unwashed boysngirls who make no noise maybe paying a few visits shortly to the delights of ATC as NR has decided that our handeovers and comms are not good enuff, like, and must be of "ATC standard". a shock awaits methinks.

back o/t: best of luck.

If Mr Barron is worth 12% plus then maybe we should start negotiating around this figure? Ok we all know we are not going to be getting anywhere near this amount, but if we aim high to start with then "compromise" with a lower increase!

:D

couldnt agree more.... if we start high we can then negotiate.
as for having to cope with living in the current economical climate on a so called 'average salary', if i didnt want a well paid job, i will go and get a £20k a year job and do bugger all every day. are we meant to settle for less than we should get just because we get paid more than most for a job that most havent the aptitude or balls to do? this argument comes up every now and again that we dont really need the money etc.... its not about what we already get, its the big picture and the long term effects. if in the many years to come the company know then can bend us over whenever they like as the union is to week to play hardball.... say 'goodbye pensions and current T&C's'

Apply the maxim of a very learned ex-colleague of mine when negotiating - Ask for twice what you want and settle for half.

Roffa being on a good salary didn't stop Paul Barron receiving a reported 3 x RPI increase last year. To expect an RPI + n% deal is not a fanciful suggestion it should be are absolute minimum starting point.

Why not give the units, with the biggest rises in traffic over the last 3 years the biggest pay rise.If performance related pay is good enough for PB then the staff should get the same.:E

The last 2 paydeals have been sold to us by reps as "we should accept and keep our powder dry for the pension fight"!!!!!!
These same reps are now (mostly) promoted!
Nests have been feathered so who cares anymore?

well then we keep saying NO until they get their fingers out.
if its not done by a date we notify the company of, they can have back my extra freebie validations etc.... and then lets see who comes on hands and knees asking for our help.

Vercingetorix some might consider that to be corruption.

"They" are you. It's your union.

Once you've stuck their £15 up their arse what are you going to do, go to PB and try and negotiate your own rise? That's why management must piss themselves laughing much of the time, nothing to do with the union reps (who I have rather a lot of respect for for taking on the somewhat thankless task of being an atco rep) but rather the fact they read quality stuff like this on PPRuNe.

Prospect and it's predecessors have on the whole done a pretty good job in the 25 plus years I've been a member and occasional rep. No strikes in my time and yet my salary has over that period outstripped inflation, top earning ATCO 2s are now hitting six figures plus and my working conditions aren't exactly onerous. Yup, they can stuff that record up their arse :rolleyes:

Lets go and demand a totally unrealistic pay rise at a time our customers, the ones who pay us for our services, are contracting and cutting costs quite severely. That's logical.

I'm all for picking a fight over the pension but in the current economic climate to go looking for large single or double digit pay rises is ludicrous unless you can find some way of paying for them via efficiences. Any (sensible) ideas? You won't get anything for nothing.

Otherwise, imo, you're wasting your time. The industry can barely afford to function at the moment and we are not immune from these issues. PB's own package is irrelevant in this discussion, if that's what he negotiated when he joined then so be it. It's not an indication of what I or we should expect to match.