yahoo@ #55 Nice post. You ever tried being a union rep? Roffa talks a lot of sense, particularly in the current economic climate. NATS is already tightening its belt (look in the NATS thread) and expect to see plenty more over the coming months. May not be a repeat of 9/11 when NATS had to borrow more to pay its bills but a big downturn is fairly obviously coming.

BD

Bravo Roffa. :ok:

Oh, and another candidate for my ignore list has perhaps emerged........

Greed is a terrible thing!:bored:

Yahoo

As was eloquently put by Roffa, the union has negotiated us some very good pay rises over the years. Admitiddley we went from being grossly underpaid to being well renumerated (although I would always like more), but it still took their negotiating skills to get these rises.

They have not been perfect - they would be the first to admit that, but overall they do a very good job for us. If you think you can do better, step up to the plate... any halfwit can sit on the sidelines and snipe.

Our customers are having a hard time at the moment... whatever way you look at it that will affect us... our customers are the ones who pay our wages and our pension (as in any commercial service industry). Unfortunately it comes at a time when both pay and pensions are up for discussion.

The non halfwits amongst us would rather have a smaller pay rise but secure the pension. To think you will get a secure pension and a huge pay rise this time round illustrates complete ignorance.

As employees we did not want NATS to be sold off... however it was and we have to face up to the fact that we are now being run as a business, not a Civil Service.

Why not in the NATS Forum ?
 

The topic being discussed is of relevance to many ATC staff, regardless of their employer, since everyone has pension and salary negotiations I expect.

NATS staff are not alone in having to fight their management on these issues, and keeping the topic in the public eye allows others to see what is going on in NATS, compare it with their own situation, and provide independent comment which might be of use to us all in the ATC industry.

being a "NATS" employee in fantasy island,oops Gibraltar, i would just like the same as my UK compatriates.

while we're at it UHP and BUPA would be nice!!!

that last post is horrible.
And it sounds like the sort of thing a big company would do.
that had never occured to me.
Eventually they would get exactly what they want, albeit over a longer period than would be ideal for them.
If that went through into practice it would be awful for us.

As long as NATS dangles the carrot of AAVA's there will always be someone willing to sell their souls for a few extra quid, I guess they would sell their grannies too if the price was right.....after spending more than 30 years with this company and previous CAA it never ceases to amaze me how the majority of ATCO's appear so short sighted and willing to take a few extra bob in exchange for selling their fututre fortunes......I wonder how many will sell their leave in the next round of deals!!!!! So You had your chance guys and blew it for greed!!!!!

the union hasnt the balls anymore, im sorry but i just dont trust them. they are far too sympathetic to the wool the company are pulling over all our eyes.

we are playing into the companies hands already unless we get on with it and scare the complete s**t out of them.

i for one am happy to start not doing AAVA's... if the union could put that out to all and one its a start, then start dropping extra validations, then if it got that far, strike.

as always, the majority of us would band together and the minority who earn £70k feel desperate enough to sell us all out and get that extra £330 after tax for an AAVA because they need the extra money or the kids wont eat.

anyone approached the union about this???

If the union didn't have the balls to put forward strike proposals when privatisation happened, why should we believe they would suggest it now?

Bedtime reading

BBC NEWS | UK | Pilots union staff set for strike

At our lower band unit,the union membership has fallen to a level,that any strike action would probably have little effect.This is because ''working together'' has had far more consequences than bigger units.The big units are just getting a taste of what has happened here since 1991.
Most people say what do I get for my union membership? Hmmm nothing.
Management say we now work for NSL.Are we going to be guinea pigs yet again for a new scheme.Probably and the sad thing here is that there is little fight left.People just look after themselves and are leaving for the sandpit.Good luck to them because it's no pleasure in lower band NSL land anymore.Prospect certainly won't help either.:uhoh:

when im next in im going to find a union rep and probe about strike action etc.... id always hoped i wouldnt have to, but the union are so naff at communication and getting into bed with management i guess its up to us to ask.

Not half as desperate as those on less in the lower bands whose pay scale doesn't reach £70k and don't see AAVAs cos 'the contract can't afford them'. Oh, and we don't even get paid the extra for the met contingency cos the union stitched us up on that agreement.
If 'shewhomakesmyearsbleed' agreed to it, emigration would be on the cards never mind fighting to save my pension.

I'm sorry to interupt, but what's AAVA ?

And I guess it's the same everywhere. We could have - and will have - the same debate here in Germany, since our negotiations about the pension is already running, about pay rise is due end of september.

Have a nice day

Saigor

Voluntary Overtime.Flat rate of between £350 and £600(I think) per day before tax depending on your unit banding.Non pensionable.Nats couldn't function without them.

Saigor

AAVA - ATCO Additional Voluntary Attendance (think that's the right way round!). Basically an overtime shift.

fisbangwollop -

You're being a bit harsh on people who do the odd AAVA just because you choose not to. You have over 30 years in the company? That makes me conclude you are at the top of the scale.. it's more understandable for someone at the top of the scale, who has done a lot of years, not to want to do AAVA's, especially as the money you get for them is not really an overtime rate at your salary.

However for someone who is only 2 or 3 pay spines up the scale, it's actually a nice little boost to their wage.

Why should people stop doing AAVA's just because you don't agree with them?

I fully agree that if, and when, the pension issue comes to a head then everyone should seriously think about working to contract for a fortnight - i.e. no AAVA's etc, but until it comes to a head, why should people lose out? AAVA's are a choice and if a concerted effort to not do them is deemed a good way to demonstrate how the company needs goodwill, then that should be done en-masse, with a specific aim. Not doing them anytime for the hell of it will achieve nothing.

Yahoo

Yes the company does seem to needlessly waste money on functions etc that the majority of coalface workers never get to see, but it does not waste enough to afford to pay us a whopping pay rise. Pensions are a big burden on any company - for an employee no to realise that is short sighted.

I would love a big pay rise and an intact pension - however I truly believe that both cannot be achieved this time round. We get paid fairly well, whatever band unit we are at (though all of us always want more) - the pension should be the thing we try (and succeed) to keep alive.

What NATS needs to understand is that there are many ANSPs out there who are short of staff - just as we are. However in recent months many of these ANSP's have greatly increased their wages etc.

The reason many people stay with NATS is because of the pension; at the moment going to Dubai etc is not financially worth it long term because of lack of pension etc. If our pension gets eroded, more and more people will realise that they will be better off elsewhere.

NATS have a history of being short sighted - just look at the way training stops and start because one year we may be fairly flush with staff, but chop rates and retirements are never taken into account, nor is the lead time to train someone from scratch. NATS need to realise that if they screw with the pension, there will be an increase in the amount of qualified people leaving.

As an aside and in no way am I suggesting this... but if we allow new joiners to be given a worse pension, they may well get their own back when the new pension scheme members are in the majority. A cynical and morally corrupt ATCO might just start 'chopping' for pension security to keep the amount of new people in low numbers. A very possible scenario when you consider the actual way training takes place - much of it is subjective, especially during live OJTI.

What we and the union need to ensure is that we do not get to that stage. One NATS one pension is the Unions own motto, maybe as union members we need to be more proactive and seek out our union reps - not to hassle them, but to let them know that there is a huge number of us who will not take this lying down. If we just sit by and not make our feelings heard now, we may end up having to take a vote on choices which are far from ideal.

I freely admit that I do the odd AAVA here and there, and I am at the top of the ATCO 2 scale, and as the scheme is voluntary I think that is my choice to make. I also do not feel guilty about this as I feel that in last four or five years, our pay rises have been fairly good and our pension remains intact.

I also see AAVA's as a bonus which I use to enhance my quality of life away from work and it is not a necessity. I also respect that there are reasons why others do not want or need to do extra shifts (double ATCO salary, travelling etc), that is their choice too.

However, that said, when it comes to T & C's, pension and pensionable salary increases not meeting expectations. Then we have to look at what we are doing that is based on goodwill and AAVA's, without which NATS could not operate efficiently and would be penalised millions by the regulator each year.

In the short term, I think that the union should be looking to obtain more satisfactory suggestions by the management at the next meeting on 14th August, otherwise perhaps it would be a good time to consider whether we wish to volunteer services for AAVA's in September or October. As the summer PSS which generally finishes at the end of September, would mean that without AAVA's, the September roster would not work and capacity would fall well short of what was promised to the airlines under the OPA.
October would also come under serious pressure. Otherwise we may have missed the opertunity to make our intentions felt and show management that we are willing to play hardball!

In the long term, IFACTS training outside of our normal roster pattern should be considered a no no!

If NATS had been paying the proper amount into the scheme for the last two or three years whilst boasting about profits, would we be asking these questions now?

Anotherthing: I applaud your clear understanding of the issues under debate here. I have to take issue with you on one point however, I have been in NATS and its predecessors for nearly 37 years and I cannot remember a time when controllers were "grossly underpaid". When compared to other sections of the coalface, controllers have always been well rewarded.

On other issues: A pay rise of RPI+1% will still produce a substantial rise for those controllers whose salaries are nearer the top of their 13-step pay scale. How would a compression of the pay scales sound - a higher percentage sliding rise for the bottom of the scales?

On pensions, a radical idea could be to cap the maximum pension payable, index linked in the same way as at present, to say £35k p.a. This would limit future liabilities.

As for NATS saving money by not having away days and feel-good presentations, why oh why has the ATCO Towers accommodation (sleeping) block been built at great expense at Swanwick?

I would love to see a work to rule by ATCO's - you would not get in the car park when they all have to turn up for work!!

Don't get me started on the AAVA's !!!!!

@throw a dyce
@anotherthing

thanks

Saigor

Stevebbh

I agree - grossly was too strong a word - however in the past 10 years or so, ATCOS (in particular) have seen an increase in wages well beyond any RPI... I don't think obscenely so - I think that we are in no way overpaid. I think the decent wage rises we have had have brought us up to an almost fair wage. (Take away the pension though and that perception changes drastically. Many people see the pension as a payment in arrears).

This has been down to the negotiating skills of the Unions that so many people on here (who have not got off their backsides to become reps), regularly whinge about.

I have always been of the belief that is you are unhappy with something and are in a position to try to do something about it, then you should. If you can't be bothered, then you have no right whingeing! This exactly my beef with those who snipe at Union reps from the sidelines yet won't muck in and offer to do ome work.

more or less the norm on my sector with EGs rendered obsolete by spin shifts, early starts or late finishes.

We'd have needed another 20+ controllers to have covered the shortfall made up by AAVAs in TC in July. Overtime is very cheap labour for NATS, even more so if you add training costs, pension contribution, etc.

Managment need AAVAs more than we do.

One of our guys did an AVAA,then had an incident on that shift.Maybe fatigue was an issue:hmm:.Got the rating suspended and needs retraining.That's what you get helping NATS management out.AVAA's ain't worth it,well not at this low band unit anyway.:}

Well, that's certainly the norm at my unit already.

I personally would like to see pay rises available only for those people who have the minimum unit requirement.

Silence is deafening from the anti AAVA lobby!:ok:

I guess I made some reasonable points then.

Anotherthing: Thank you for recognising what was probably an overstatement! :) and as usual your point is well put. I am interested however in your opinion that controllers are only just receiving a "fair wage". What determines "fair"? Who are you comparing it with? I note you used the word "obscene" in your reply. Although the context is that you don't think the rises have been obscene - it must have been in the back of your mind as an appropriate word to use.

I have to say I was more than a little amused when I read that in a previous pay round NATS senior ATCO's got a huge pay rise on the back of a reduction in the pay for student controllers as any rise had to be "self financing". Excellent negotiating as this will of course reflect through in final pensions - which they would be a whole lot nearer on time served.

The capping of pensions I mentioned in my previous post would prevent this from happening. Of course contributions would be capped to meet the maximum pension to be paid.

Before I get going on AAVA's (at Area52's request!) can you clarify one point for me? Is overtime paid for the hours worked in addition to the AAVA for turning out on a rest day?

SteveBBH

AAVA's are paid at a flat rate for the whoel shift, though there are 1/2 AAVA's as well (obviously for half the shift). There is no hourly rate on top it's a one of payment.

As for obscene, you keep picking me up on my use of over the top words!! That was again over the top, but an outsider may think the way our pay has risen dramatically over the past 8-10 years is obscene. It's well above inflation with some very good deals even recently. However before these rises we were not in receipt of a great wage (though I admit, we were not grossly underpaid!!)

I think it's a fair wage in that I do not think we are overpaid by any means - a fairly direct comparison would be to airline pilots... when you consider workloads etc I think an airline captain and above gets a much better renumeration than an ATCO at the top of the scale.

I also do not think we are greatly underpaid, it depends who you compare us to. For the responsibility we have, I do not think another £10k or £15k would be unreasonable.

It's extremely difficult to quantify - who do you compare yourself to? Firemen/Nurses/Armed Forces - we compare very favourably... Pilots/Salesmen/bankers (not management) - we compare badly to...

It is a very difficult thing to quantify and the best way to think of it is do you feel very underpaid or overpaid?

If not then it's probably a fair wage, the use of the word fair does not infer that it is correct, just in the ballpark

Anotherthing: You should have noticed the little red fella sitting above my post! You can guess that there was a little devilment in there too!! :) But another £10 or 15k !! That is more than my daughter gets for a 50 hour week looking after a lot of ATCO's children at a local nursery!! :*

Thanks for the clarification Area52. So what does the AAVA work out to be per hour then? £65? Has there ever been a case of 'if I go sick you can get an AAVA for covering me and it is my turn next week'? The budget for AAVA's at Swanwick is reported to be the equivalent of 50 average ATCO's salary for a year (30 top of scale). This is nearly double what is being spent on ATCO Towers (bedrooms). An opportunity for inappropriate behaviour to proliferate if ever I saw one. ;)

Are there discussions going on to introduce a shift pattern that properly distributes the Ops rooms staff to meet traffic levels? More during the day fewer at night? That would reduce the need for AAVA's surely? Or should this be the subject of a new thread? :confused:

Yahoo

I work at a band 5 unit (TC) - never hidden that fact and I have also never hidden the belief that although I think there should definitely be a differential in pay between some units, I think the banding system per se is unfair.

I think that all ATCOs are well paid, I don't believe £100k would be too much for a true Band 5 unit (in answer to SteveBBH), however although fairly well paid, I believe some lower band units deserve more money. However that is subjective on my part and not an argument I am willing to get into - not because I am scared I will lose it, but because all units at lower banding feel they should be better paid - not neccesarily at band 5, but more than they are. I have my views as do others - we are all entitled to them - doesn't mean my views are correct.

Suffice to say - I believe a pay differential is fair within NATS, but I do not believe it is done fairly at the moment. Do I know how to fix it - (I don't mean a quick fix of paying lower bands more immediately) - the answer is no.

SteveBBH

I did notice the devil, as it happens, however you were right to pick up the use of sensationalist words such as obscene and grossly!!

However as I stated above - I don't think a £10k rise for Band 5 to £100k top of scale would be over the top. However I sympathise with your daughter - as I stated in previous post, you can compare with any number of different jobs/responsibilities to make it fit any argument. (I have a cousin who is a palliative care nurse for cancer patients.. gets paid mid £20k for a harrowing job I know I could not cope with - do I think that's enough - of course not)

AAVA per hour at a band 5 unit ranges from £78 to £61 per hour depending which shift you get called in for - thats approx £47 to £36 per hour after deductions.

AAVA's certainly at TC are not biddable - you get asked on a rota system - if you are eligible through SRATCOH then it's whoever holds the correct validation and is top of the list... cascading down until someone accepts.

If you are off sick, I believe there is now a thing in force where you cannot get an AAVA for 2 weeks afterwards.

As for the amount of AAVA's maybe equating to 50/30 average ATCOs possibly true figure, however by using AAVA's you have enhanced flexibility - one ATCO might only be valid on a couple of sectors, whereas from within the pool of AAVA's you have validations for every sector.

To man the OPS room fully at all times would actually cost the company an awful lot more by using full time staff than it does by using AAVA's - because ATCOs are sector specific.

Night time manning is vastly reduced and the people who do not do nights 'spin' onto other watches, thus complementing numbers... this alleviates some of the problems but not all.

Have you never thought that NATS are being sneaky and the benefit of ATCO Towers is the production of future ATCOs' :E?

fair points indeed!

However how as ATCO's do we pay for our salary increases through our savings? We cant work more hours, we still need state of the art kit (or atleast kit that was state of the art when it was ordered a decade ago!)

Just a thought!

The sectors I do or work beside are already cut to the bone on nights. One person going sick means the sector/airport is shut for an hour or more.

Anotherthing: Ha ha ha!! ATCO Towers a future controller-making strategy - I don't think NATS would think that far ahead!! Nor have they thought it fully through I fear! :( And thank you for putting me straight as to the meaning and function of a spinner, I often wondered.

Me me me me: well said in your final paragraph! The total salary bill has to be found from within the business and it is often job cuts and greater pressure to work longer hours that is put upon those at the bottom end of the business that funds the top end pay rises.

Think on this - 3 ATCO's getting an extra £10k (2 if £15k) means that there are two less MSG7's to support the day to day running of the Ops room. (Not all support staff are ATSA's). Who will do your replays, LCE's etc? It is all too easy to bandy around what may seem like a relatively small figure (to you) that is the entire income of another just as important member of your own support staff. Rant over...

The Band 5 Atcos have shafted their own collegues in lower band units,by voted for pay deals in the past.It's not just MSG7 that are effected.The pay differential Band 2 to Band 5 is about £25K+.Our Band2 Atco has to be multi rated,and if you look at other units,then we do the second rating for nothing.
Do Atcos get fairly paid?Well I can kill a lot of people,and the stress can have long term medical implications.Band 2 is reasonable until you look at other pay scales within Nats,and then it looks ridiculous.
If there was a level playing field,and everyone was treated fairly,then there wouldn't be a problem.However the Band 5 units will always get the silver spoon,at the expense of everyone else.

Band 5 units are busier and more stressful than band 2 units.
The only sympathy I have there is for people at band 2/3/4 units (towers) where the approach function is done at TC and so their old colleagues who used to work at the same location moved counties and got band 5 pay for breathing the same air and using the same loos as TMA/swanwick controllers.

Nats Pay Round
 

Anyone heard anythingabut Scottish/MACC getting band 5?

Mr Barron and the divided staff he leads
 

Mr Barron must be reading this thread, laughing over his new pay deal, thinking we are gonna be easy targets... Ladies and Gents, a friday proverb... Together we fight, divided we fall... ATCOs, ATSAs, all non op staff, Band 5, Band 4, Band 1... Who cares what position you are in NATS.. You need a pension... And no matter what your wage, the new pension deal will not be as good as the existing one. Thats the fact we all have to remember...

(Oh and by the way, in my humble opinion, if people in Band 2 units want Band 5 money, move to the south of england and revalidate... Then you can have it! I personally would leave my band 5 unit for a return to my origins (band 2 unit) , but cant get it because it is full of people who are happy to be in the regions and near their families) Last I heard LACC were gagging for atcos... Everyone here agrees its short of staff...

having just spoke with a union rep on our watch, although not involved directly with the pay talks. he seems to think that the union has the balls to call for a strike..... hmmmmm, still not 100% convinced.
he also said that we will know by the end of august the outcome for all of this. so hopefully not long to wait for the first offer of stiffing us.....

I hope thats tongue-in-cheek! As someone said above, divided we fall!

What about all the ATCO's who are married to ATSA's? You think they'll vote for that?

Lets get serious
 

YAHOOr:ugh:


Have you got anything sensible to contribute to these forums. There are ATCOs, ATCEs and all other grades at the CTC.
As for the thread, I would suggest a 1 year deal RPI for 2009 then perhaps a 3 year deal with benefits in the Olympics year.
No changes to Pension or satifactory safeguards for those in the current scheme if changes are allowed. Though I think that would be a difficult task.