Medway Control

I would obviously like band 5 pay but do not expect it. What would be fairer is to narrow the ever widening gap between my Band and Band 5. You are busier and deserve more pay than me but we are upset at the huge gulf and lack of influence within the union. The big boys will always vote for themselves and sod everyone else and management know this and so divide us everytime.

However you get the likes of ROFFA declaring we (he?) is well paid and an ATCO2 top of salary is bringing home close to a 6 figure salary so we maybe should not expect a large pay rise. It's alright for some. I am on 30 odd grand less than that and I work bloody hard for it. We only get a rise because it seems to be embarrassing to NSL that airports outside of NATS pay similar if not better wages than lower band airports within, and those outside are way quieter in traffic terms. If the pension goes then can someone tell me the attraction of working within NSL especially when you are not necessarily in the part of the country you wish to be?

As for the tired old 'stop moaning and come and join us in Band 5 land' comments, we have controllers trying to do that. They cannot be given a release date for the college because of staff shortages, and the college will not interview without a release date. Another is waiting to get on an area course but because again of staff shortages cannot be given a course. And we are talking years not months. How can you plan a life like that?

We should stick together I agree and this is a put up or forever shut up moment. However band 4/5 boys, when you have the carrot dangled infront of you by management/union, because you hold the majority vote, we will see if you look at us behind clinging to your coat tails.

YAHOO......Having spent over 30 years in this job I have come across the odd ATCO that has his head up his arse........your last comment leads me to believe you are on of them!!!!!

Hootin,
Look at Guernsey.Half the movements,£15K more and less tax.Just got to live on a pricey island.:uhoh: Nats is leading the world in pay.Yeah right.
Did you know that a Band 5 Atco can retire on more than a Band 2 takes home working multi ratings.:ok:
It makes me laugh the the Band 5's are saying stick together,when they have lined their pockets at lower band expense for years.Here the reality is that as many people starting to leave as go to higher band units.That just makes the situation worse for those trying to get out.
We don't need to go on strike.Just wait for the unit to implode,that should do it.:bored:

outside nats companies are starting to pay more as they dont have a workforce of thousands draining the profit by sitting at desks, emailing eachother, designing new and utter rubbish procedures when they know jack all about ATC, claiming everything on expenses and spending literally thousands on meetings at hotels when they could use barrons personal chocolate factory that is ctc..... maybe we should start recruiting oompa loompas?
i do not believe we are the one and only when it comes to the company, but they... and some office types seem to have forgotten that if we dont work, or work as well as we do with 'goodwill' extra validations etc means we dont get paid by airlines and no one gets paid full stop. the respect from within the company for atco's at all units seems to bee diminishing each year, current negotiations seem to be reflecting this.
i know of plenty of people at my unit looking further afield now to dubai etc if the next pay and pensions negotiations go south... but not before they will make the company suffer by giving back valiadations and refusing to train etc..... sorry if you dont like it, but this is what is happening on the front line.

outside nats companies are starting to pay more as they dont have a workforce of thousands draining the profit by spending most their time on breaks, having petty squabbles amongst themselves, demanding systems that do their job for them, claiming overtime and AAVAs for every single addition minute and spending literally thousands building sleeping accommodation so the oompa loompas can sleep and be paid.

I didn't mean any of that but I am afraid kinglouis probably meant what he said :-(

we didnt ask for the sleeping building, and most of us didnt expect it to actually be built. we currently have the same sleeping arrangements as we have always had, that was good enough for me and most others i know.

as for most of our time on a break, yes we have a lot of breaks..... next time you fly and the atco involved has a raging airmiss as he/she has been sitting there for hours on end and is knackered just so they dont appear lazy i hope you wont mind too much. we are governed by the law the hours we work, not our choice mate.

as i stated, i dont think we are the only ones in the company, by all means come get a headset and give it a go.

a few weeks ago i had a long chat with some nice people at their request to talk about P-RNAV SID's. after about 45 minutes i asked if they had seen a radar replay of the airspace they wanted to change or even plugged in..... guess what, hadnt even crossed their minds as they didnt see it relevant... bloody brilliant.

and last time i checked, it was operational staff (and not only ATCOs) who make the majority of the profit. so goldfrog, if and when (subject pay and pensions outcome) my colleagues and i hand in our extra 'free' validations we do to help out the company as according to you we do nothing for free, why dont you come pick up the slack and do them?

Here in Germany one of the guys from the upper management mentioned that it's not the ATCOs (or operational staff) earning the money, the guys writing the bills are the ones.

Guess it is the same view in every company, the management sees the controllers as a overpaid bunch of lazy guys, not following their visions for a brighter future. Even the problems between the 'low band' and 'high band' ATCOs seems to be the same, as far as the pay differs, the whining of the guys that the union isn't doing enough (however the won't leave the sideline and would offer to some work for the union) is like a refrain from the tunes over here.

Good luck for the negotiations, get as much as you can, holding back wouldn't be honoured in the future. But I'm an outsider and it's your 'game'...


Saigor

Because I am currently working ~50 hour weeks to try and deliver two of NATS top 10 projects on time and cost optimised and to my user's satisfaction

You don't have to work 50 hours a week, stop taking 3 hr lunches, going for meetings about meetings about procedures for meetings that mioght take place if procedures can be determined for meetings.

You complete and utter idiot!

Looks like "Zooker" has one of the NATS "bull!!!! bingo" playing cards in front of him/her.

Casear, tut tut poor attention to detail.:ugh:

Goldfrog don't forget to get all us ATCO's "on board" post meeting about procedures for meeting with some lovely glossy handouts on the latest gobbledegook. This must be produced at massive cost by some CTC hochos sisters company.:{

Then have a meeting about a meeting to follow the meeting procedure, all sat on those plush leather chairs mulling over the starbucks menu before deciding to go to your on site gym or flicking the 50" plasma over.:{

Meanwhile us sub human grunts at the centres will keep making the money so you can come on here and tel us what a bunch of ingrates we are.

Personally, I'd give any non ATCO's (or ATSA's) based at CTC a 10% pay cut. But thats just me.:ok:

Goldfrog

Without getting personal that is how CTC and the rest of admin/ penpushers/facilitaters/non valid, never valid so called air traffic experts are viewed by the operational staff. I was in the forces and in the air force for instance, which is after all in the business of flying, everything revolved around the pilots. Does the same not occur in companies like B.A.? Now I don't want to be placed on a pedestal but in NATS everything seems to revolve around administrators. We seem to be viewed with contempt by management and if they could operate the business without controllers then they would be in heaven.

The difference in mindset can be read each day on Natsnet. Any announcement from management is rejoiced by the CTC and then cynically put down by the operational units (Vision 2011 etc) Except the usual suspects of course who triumph any announcement in the aim of being the next Manager Airports.

When we got into the top layer of UK companies a year or two back I thought I was reading about another company. The opportunities available to its staff like part time, childcare, sabbaticals etc may apply to some but are not available to the operational Atco/Atsa due to a shortfall in staffing. Are they going to close a sector etc because I want to go trekking around India for 8 months? Would a bog standard administrator be in the same boat, I think not.

Whilst i believe to an extent that there is a role in NATS for all parties (what does the chief scientist do?), we are too top heavy with administrators and management positions forever being created for the old Alstrom cronies (the tie-less wonders!) and the like.

Being flippant we could solve it by re-nationalising NATS and getting the pension direct from the government. Profit? Who cares as we are supposed to be a non profit making organisation anyway.

Just fed up with all the bad mouthing!!!!
 

I sometimes wonder why some of the individuals posting here bother to come to work everyday as they seem to hate the company and some of their colleagues so much. There is a total lack of understanding on both sides Ops & Non Ops about how each other contributes to the business. Unless you can get past that there will never be any unity and by the way there are some operational engineering staff at CTC without whom the business would stop as well!

For those unhappy about pay & conditions if the grass is so much greener then you know what to do.

I agree with Hootin that the company has become far too commercial.

What really gets on my tits, working at Swanwick, is all the notices proclaiming me to be a customer of different departments. I'm not a f**king customer, I'm a colleague - it's a department of the same company so how could I be a customer of that department. Total management bull!!!! if you ask me.

and another thing....!!
 

I've found myself compelled to submit my second ever post! :ok:

Some of the criticism levelled at my CTC colleagues has been a little harsh. I call them colleagues, because I find myself, after 19 years at operational units (and a valid ATSA at Heathrow) based at the CTC. Not to blow too much sunshine up their arses (you know who you are), I have always found the majority of project people extremely knowledgeable and helpful - but that's not the most surprising thing - I think they actually want to make a difference to the operation by making life easier for you chaps at the coalface. TC Relocation was a good example - For those of you that don't know Goldfrog (a firm but fair person!), he worked tirelessly with ATCO's and ATSA's to provide a sound operation. Just as I did. :hmm:
Now...what about that payrise?

if there are in fact some, maybe the majority who are knowledgeable and want to make it better for us. can you send them to our ops room instead of the complete morons with blank expressions and 'i dont know' that emits from that hole between their nose and chin???

i love my job, but as stated by others, this outfit is far, far too top heavy and swelling its self with managers, and admin staff will take it in the wrong direction.
as for relocation.... my experience of it was relatively good. but if you want a payrise for working on it. put it this way, if i wasnt happy with it i wouldnt have moved and my manager and the 5000 above him would have known that. if you are wanting a payrise for yuor relocation efforts, i want one for working 2 core sectors and actually having the word 'safety' relevant to my job when i sit down and do it.... we cant get up and go for a starbucks when we need a breather, we have to plough through it and go hammer and tongs to put that many aircraft SAFELY through our sector that would not have been done 5 years ago as deemed too busy. but hey, some so called expert said it looked do-able on paper so it must work....

Payrise!!!! I guess all the extra dosh was spent on that fancy bash that was centre spread in this months company glossy magazine........and talking of fancy bashes I am still waiting for my invite to that 25 year award after over 30 years service!!!:(

when was the last time we got rewarded or thanked for our work???
handling a mayday with engine loss or smoke in the cockpit???
actually, i do remember a letter from MP jacquie smith a earlier this year thanking all ops staff for something... oh yes, they stuck it in a little folder in the ops room and no one knew about it......
or how about us busting our nuts when mister bush last came to party at heathrow. those 2 days were a nightmare. but we coped, got the delays down and got on with it..... meanwhile the sun was shiny at ctc, no one broke a sweat and you could hear a pin drop.... the biggest drama is starbucks running out of tall skinny latte's.
but ho hum, lets spread some s***e award for some crappy nibs programme and a whole handful of other things..... speed trials, south west and north new airspace all over the glossy nats news. none of them work and are such a waste of our money.
whats next... oh yes, thew new capital airspace..... watch this space.

Reading all these replies I realise now I must be an odd ball.....why?? well because I love my work, thats why, I think the guys and girls I work with (with the very odd exception!) are great, the office staff, the ops staff and even the management I have no problems with, if I have a problem I know I could go to the very top and talk and be listened to....how many other companies could you do that in?? I have enjoyed my work for the past 30 years and hope to enjoy it for another few years yet...all I ask for is that my pension is safe and my pa rises will at the very least match the cost of living rise...one cannot ask for more han that.......I of course realise why I am so lucky.....because I work at Scottish!!! Here we dont eat the kids or stab our work mates in the back....long may that continue!!!!:ok:

Right.....
 

:ughYou've misunderstood me - I was trying (unsuccessfully, obviously) to bring the conversation back to the original thread - which was..."Has anyone heard anything about the negotiations?". :ugh:

King Louis....I think you've got some issues. :eek:

indeed i do.

so lets get back to pay and pensions.

Look at your NATS contracted weekly hours ... if they are less than 50, and you are not selling your soul to the overtime devil, then you are a silly person.

If you are doing more than your contract for free, or being rewarded at a stupid rate for anything over your contracted hours, you are a fool to yourself. And screwing it up for all your fellow workers.

I would report this post to a moderator but you appear to be one. As the parent of a child with learning difficulties I find this particularly offensive.

I'm gone from here back to the world of engineering where we appear to be nicer people and less up our own backsides.

Bye

In defence of goldfrog
 

I have met Goldfrog and he is a senior engineer who was a major player in ensuring the successful delivery of the TC operation from West Drayton to Swanwick. He was very mindful of the needs of ATCOs when configuring the sectors. Goldfrog is a thoroughly nice bloke who is extremely conscientious. He does not deserve such scathing criticism. PPRuNe Radar - you should be ashamed of yourself.

Hmm perhaps our esteemed moderator's choice of words was a tad suspect, and I am certain no offence was intended.

However, his points remain valid ones. Working for more than your contracted hours without recompense is not wise. Not wise for the individual, as management will expect you to do it again, and you will lose out. Financially and in personal time. Not wise for your colleagues, as the management will expect the same of everyone else.

NATS is now allegedly a "commercial" company. Perhaps its should now start behaving like one, and paying for "extras" accordingly. As I see it, it gets by because of the sheer professionallism and commitment of it's staff.

BEX.

P.S. Touch my pension and I will be angry. You wouldn't like me when I'm angry. (The same is true for most operational staff)

Non operational staff are generally contracted at 35 hours a week. I'm also involved in project work (and have worked with goldfrog and I suspect snug as well) and there are times when you have to put in the extra hours, otherwise the project will miss its delivery. Would the operational staff be impressed if, for example, TC or PC never moved on time and all of the house moves, kids schools etc. were thrown into disarray?
I'm not suggesting that the motives for working additional hours are purely altruistic (pride in your work, doing a good job etc. are also factors) but there is real motivation in delivering your product to your customer when you promised. I make no apology for using those 'business' terms, we are a business even though some NATS staff don't like it.

From some of the comments in this thread some operational staff need to expand their horizon outside of their own little world and try and look at the bigger picture. They have obviously never interfaced with project staff and give every impression of having zero understanding of just exactly what's involved in a project. Oh and I do understand what its like being operational, I was (and still am as a profession) an ATCO.

BD

Lets not get lost on petty squabbles here......we all understand that ATC is a team job, wether ATCO,ATSA,ATE,AFISO,office worker etc etc we all work together to succeed in doing a safe job.....lets stop all this petty squabbling and pull together as a team and drive forward to our final goal....and that is recompense for a great job we all do and protecting our pension rights.........all this infighting is going to help no one!!!:ok:

I have amended the words to something which could be seen as less offensive, since that was not the drive of my post. My point was that people who put in 50 hours or more a week (and seem proud of the fact) and are doing so without any reward, are (in my opinion) fools. Not only to themselves, but to the rest of the staff in NATS, because they are now creating a working pattern which can be seen as the norm.

How can you expect a union to work for improved terms and conditions for everyone in NATS if people regularly work excessive and (under the European Work Directive) possibly illegal hours ?? You are spoiling it for everyone else, regardless of the product you are delivering. If nothing else, what do you think continued excessive working hours will be doing to your health and family life ? Imagine you work 50 hours in a week and then run off the road on the way home because you are too tired. Or you make a mistake in your work, because you are fatigued. I don't see such people as heroes, pulling the company out of the mire, by putting in an extra shift to get things done. I see them as a potential liability .. to themselves and their colleagues. Whilst working in the non op environment might not be immediately safety critical, you can have an effect on the safe operation if you are providing something while fatigued. It is well known that errors creep in when a human is involved in that condition.

If the hours need to be put in to get something done, and are excessive, then there are several possible explanations. For example ..

There is not enough resource, but then again there's no pressure on NATS to provide it since they seem to have people who will work for free overtime anyway.

The person doing the job is not up to it and has fallen behind or underestimated the task (or maybe their manager has). But again, NATS have no need to worry as someone will be along to work excessive hours shortly.


The pride and professionalism to get a job done is laudable .... but it should never compromise the need for NATS to provide sufficient staff, who work legal contracted hours, and are suitably rewarded.

Maybe the whistle should be blown on the NATS managers and individual staff who flout and break European law on working times ?? Anything over 48 hours (including overtime) in a given 7 day period is illegal. Perhaps the Health and Safety Executive should audit NATS NIBS records, having been tipped the nod ;) A few court appearances might sharpen the minds and improve things for everyone.

Where do you find this resource, which has to have a particular, very specialised skill set at short notice?
Underestimation is often a large part of the problem. Its often impossible to know how difficult and how long something will be to undertake unless you've done exactly the same thing before. Its not unusual to hit unforeseen snags, so estimating hours is extremely difficult.

I agree but the specialised staff required don't exist. We cannot just magic them up. Think along the lines of ATCO training. Also most management grades don't qualify for overtime payments, have a look at the staff manual.

The records would show, assuming people are booking their time properly. In my experience managers are very aware of their duty of care to staff. However as I said before you may think you have ample resource for the job but suddenly hit a snag, bringing an extra help is impossible at short notice and the job MUST be done on time or you hit the soft issues I mentioned in an earlier post.
Rock, hard place.

BD

Problem is, NATS have come to rely on it's limited resource, because every time there is a problem, the professional staff (Operational and Project staff) work miracles to sort it out.

All very well for the "company", which has no incentive to do anything about the lack of staff / resources etc etc. No so good for the employees.

Perhaps NOW is the time then to exercise the driest powder in town?

BEX

forgive my naivity,

but surely it should be nats higher managements responsibility to ensure we have enough qualified staff to enable the company to function.

whether it be atcos, atsas, engineers airspace designers etc HR should ensure we have sufficient staff. expecting aavas, or even worse unpaid overtime from their employees, and then having the audacity to try and cheat them out of their well earned pensions is not acceptable.

try not to loose sight and bicker on petty personal issues and slights, what matters is all our futures as NATS employes with a decent pension to live on when we retire, and at least a cost of living payrise each year

as the old saying goes,

United we'll stand or divided we'll fall

United we stand but divided we fall is very sound advice but difficult to achieve when there are so many groups involved.
In my opinion, Atcos are understaffed, atsas about right. There always seems to be a few engineers about so i guess they are there or thereabouts, but there are WAY too many office workers in this company. I don't think it would hit the ocmpany that hard if we were to CUT the number of office workers in HALF and make them work as hard as atsas/engineers and atcos.
People seem to think that doing an hours work followed by a half hour break is easy work, but when you think of that time when you are working, it is 100% concentration sometimes with constant talking/decision making and planning. There is never time to click save and go for a quick moccachino with a dash of vanilla. No minesweeper, cheking of emails and rarely non work conversations. certainly no radio in the background.
I know this is how offices work across the country and probably abroad aswell but it strikes me as inefficient. if we cracked the whip a bit we could cut the wage bill, pension liability and number of meetings drastically.

BDiONU

You are correct, however the company’s upper management is negligent and reckless in that they demand this, that and the next thing without any thought on impact.

What is going to be the next 'big' project? IFACTS is not on time, TCNE airspace has failed, Central has failed, so guess what, lets bring in TC CAPITAL and do a major change in operations in 9 months - including re-arranging an OP room (TC) that was not future proofed when it was commissioned, less than a year ago.

This company fire fights- that is evident in most things it does... as a company we rush head-long from the next 'big thing' to the latest 'next big thing' once the first - 'big thing' has failed. We do not listen to the experts, for instance the call for enough support staff for the (New) Central/Capital simulations has been compromised... yet one of the reasons we are doing this latest project is because we did not resource the original project properly.

We can't afford pensions, but we can spunk 2 or 3 million quid on a project, then when it fails, neglect to learn from the lessons learned.

The company is managed by to many yes men who bend over and kiss ass whilst telling the upper management who have not got a clue about real life ATC that we will do this and we will do that.

We would be properly resourced if we did not continue to shaft ourselves by saying we can do this or we can do that.

NATS needs a reality check - PPrune Radar is utterly correct - why should you or goldfrog or anyone else work long hours because management or some lily livered yes man has said we can manage?

Proper resourcing comes from being realistic about what can be achieved... projects will often go awry and need extra manpower/hours thrown at them - we should have a contingency for this... not expect some poor fool who has pride in his/her job to do 50 hours a week.

Barron drives off in his nice company Aston Martin while those below get shafted.

BDiONU - you are ex-RAF - even though the junior service, you must be used to a hell of a lot better management practices than NATS have.

Fire fighting is required from time to time - with NATS it's made inevitable by unrealistic goals and aims.

But hey, lets do it anyways and in the meantime let NATS screw us out of our pension.

Question - so why don't we give NATS a donation of 5% of our salary every month? Ridiculous idea? It's less than what people do when they work 50 hours or so a week for nothing. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

The day the AAVA agreement went live was the day that atcos shot themselves in the foot in that respect.

What incentive for management to staff to the supposed numbers when we are queuing up to prostitute ourselves?

I do smile at the "sack half the office workers" type posts. I don't know enough to know whether or not we really are over or understaffed in such positions but I know for sure the complaints that would very quickly be showing up on here when claims or AAVA payments and the like were deemed to not be being paid quickly enough etc etc.

The poor old admin staff can't win.

how many people do you really think are involved in the processing of claims and aavas?
:confused::confused::confused::confused:

Probably not as many as most think.

It's likely though that if a reduction in admin numbers delayed anything for the average atco the complaining would follow fairly shortly thereafter.

Yeah the junior service, we never had traditions, they were just bad habits ;)When I starting working for NATS 8 years ago I'd have agreed with you about management. However since PPP things have picked up considerably and you do hear of incompetent people being sacked or moved on. Would never have happened in yea bad olde days.

BD