Mr777,
Well the management working together with Prospect have erroded the pay at the smaller units,to keep the big units quiet.This was voted through because at the small units they couldn't vote against it due insufficient numbers,and the greed of the larger units.
Now the pension issue has surfaced,and will affect everyone.However for the first time the higher Band units are getting a taste of what the smaller units have been suffering for years.
The smaller units have lost union members due to disgust about the way they have been treated.We have lost the urge to unite,because it makes no difference what we think.
The pay issue I'm sure will have a pension reform carrot dangling from it somewhere.
A bit more equality pay wise would be nice,as we do an important job as well.In fact the way things are going in this industry,our little meaningless Band 2 unit will become more and more important.All these airlines going T:mad:ts up,but we support the oil industry.It's booming and you Band 5 boys will have a lot less to do.:bored:

"So does anybody who's visited Planet Earth recently (apologies to Captain Blackadder) really believe that an RPI + 4% - 6% pay offer can be negotiated...? "

Prob not, but how come when things are good Baron gets 13% and we get RPI. The collapse of a couple of airlines is significant, but not the whole picture. Consideration should be given to the closure of West Drayton, impending closure of Manchester ACC. Also what about the fact that NATS gets it's revenue from Brussels (a nice conversion from Euro - £GBP at the moment).
The goodwill of staff is also incredibly important in meeting agressive future centres programs and (though Im not an ATCO but from reading these threads) AAVAs.
A lot of engineering staff will have pay cuts soon following the WD move.
I say RPI for pay fro a one year deal.
Pension not negotiable.

Dyce,
I take what are you saying, you have a valid, well made point. In a perfect world everybody would be paid the same. I'm NOT the sort of person to say that because you work in a Band 2 unit you must do sweet fa and therefore don't deserve Band 5 money. Banding is what it is...an unfortunate fact of NATS life.
What I do object to is saying that Band 5 units are responsible for the current pension problem...what kind of nonsense is that?? I really do fear for our pensions having seen the lack of solidarity here over the last few days.
I also think it is worth re-iterating that penisons and pay rises should NOT be linked.

Well,

to answer my own question, I'm band 5 and I don't think all units should be paid equal..

I don't agree that there should be such a huge gulf in the two ends of the pay scale, but no way do I think all ATCO's should get paid the same.

This is accepted by many friends and colleagues who have moved to quieter units after having worked at a band 5 unit and either failed to validate or moved later on due to personal circumstances.

The fact that the way banding is done at the moment is another point altogether.

As for pensions - Barrons job (divide and conquer) is done already if people start trying to say that we are in this predicament because of banding.

Keep the two valid arguments seperate and concentreat on th eone at hand at the moment - i.e. pensions.

As for this thread - Barron has just had a healthy pay rise and a nice DB9 from the company... RPI + a bit is the least we should accept

Ahh banding.

Some points from my view.

Should people be paid differently depending on unit? Yes

Have "management working together with Prospect have erroded the pay at the smaller units"? I think all units have had pay rises in the last 5 years, so I would dispute that comment by throw a dyce. Was it done to keep the larger units "quiet"? I don't personally think it was but that is my opinion much as throw a dyce has his.

The argument of "I can't get released from my Band X unit, so cannot come to a Band 5 unit" is a sound one, NATS has a poor record in recent times of releasing staff. However people can move units, and have recently moved to my Band 5 unit. But to say that I am unable to be posted to a Band 5 unit, should that result in Band 5 money on the basis you cannot be posted there but want to? That is the argument some try to make I feel.


Remember we as members of the union asked for some form of banded structure. We as members were presented with it at conference a few years back and accepted it. We are members voted for it, I am told by union reps that more than just the big bad Band 5 units voted in favour for it so some non-Band 5 to be units must also have had members voting yes.

Mr 777, we all know you are actually a Band 4 approach controller in a band 5 ops room! ;) Only joking mate, keep fighting.

I knew one of you monkeys would bring that up sooner or later, didnt expect it to be you though! :E

And some of us are Band 4 Approach AND Tower controllers (dual rated)working in a Band 2 approach room.Unions findings not mine.:mad:

GT3.You have forgotten about the Atco2/3 downgradings.Yes my friend take a pay cut or move out.I think the larger units voted for that one as well,for a big pay rise.

Anyway nothing will change as the damage is done.Had enough of this poxy company,and it's puppet union.

Hey TAD about time you wound your neck in mate, I'm about to move from band 4 to 5 to grab the holy grail so do the same mate ok!!:ok:

ebenezer
Holidaymakers hit by tour firm collapse - Yahoo! News UK

Did NATS charges push this company into bankruptcy or was it the price of fuel and the fall in value of the pound? Everyone is so keen to trumpet doom and gloom.

How much will NATS now save every year because it no longer has to pay for West Drayton?

How much extra is NATS getting because they get paid in Euros?

This is how one company is staying profitable in these hard times, cutting management posts.

Cutting 60 management posts at Easyjet. Mmmm, if we did that could we start at the top?:E

Same thing happening at BA I believe re cutting management.....it'll never happen at NATS.

I recall we were given a breakdown of charges and how much from each airline ticket goes into our pension, can anyone remember the figure?

I haven't forgotten, I didn't know about that. Probably before my time in the company I guess.

Had enough of this poxy company,and it's puppet union.

If that is the case, then have the courage of your convictions and leave the poxy company!
Equally, if it's a puppet union, get off your arse and bl##dy do something about it instead of whinging like a little girl.
The reason we are in the place we find oursleves is because people like you are good at moaning but sh#t at actually getting the business done.
Grow up!

I know this will probably fall on deaf ears, but can the banding issue just be left out of this thread?

I'm at a lower banded unit and totally understand why I get paid less than the band 5 guys and girls. That's not to say I think the banding system is fair by any means. Indeed, I think it's one reason why there is less money to go around the company, but the system is here for the time being and it's certainly not going to be be tackled anytime soon with the other stuff that is going on.

Well, not only that, you could also make a start on some of the "jobs-worths" at Whiteley... :hmm:

Johnny B Good

well said - keep up the good work on behalf of us members who do not whinge!

So, - (big breath) - has anyone heard how the pay negotiations are going for the next pay round?

No union rep at my unit appears to know anything.

I believe that they (the pay negotiations) are taking a back seat until the pensions are resolved, which is fair enough and understandable.

I stand to be corrected though

I completely disagree. The two should not be linked in any way.

Let's see how 'valued' all 'our people' are this year. Perhaps that might harden a few attitudes when the penison discussions get tougher ....

I would hazard a guess that Anotherthing was being pragmatic by saying that the pay negotiations are on the back burner, as it's most likely that all efforts are being focussed on the pension. There are only so many union people available to negotiate and I for one would rather they tackled the pension issue first to try and end some of this endless uncertainty. I doubt I'll starve to death next year on my current salary if the pay negotiation is delayed for a while.

Pensions and Pay negotiations are both on-going... One is not waiting on the other.

An RPI (4.8%) + XX% NATS pay rise???? Cripes! Was that a pig on final approach I saw...? Methinks a tube of realism pills might be in order for a few folk. :hmm:

Would you vote to accept a pay cut in real terms?

By virtue of the fact all pay increases in the company these days must be funded by cost efficiencies, there's no reason why an RPI+ deal wont be agreed. The question is who feels the pain to achieve it.

Except for those of our CEO methinks....

BEX

Well in the current issue of the prospect magazine (yes i read this one!), more than half the recent pay deals are between 3.9 and 5.3%... recession not bothering everyone else it seems!

i do hope sincerely that we do not get people saying that 'should we really be going for a pay rise at a time when the airlines are all struggling'.
as far as i'm concerned, they can (insert expletive) off. When we we struggling with 2% pay rises under goverment ownership,whilst those in the private sector were getting double that or more, we didnt hear a word from the nay sayers. As for upsetting public opinion, MP's have voted to keep their lavish expenses, 2nd homes, increased pension terms and conditions, all flying in the face of public opinion. They still did it, effectively saying 'screw you mr&mrs joe public, i'm gonna look after myself'.
Think its about time we followed their example

We are the victims of inflation.

The astronomical rise in the price of oil and gas and the fall in the value of the £ mean that the inflation currently in the British economy is all imported inflation.

If we were all given a below inflation pay rise then less people would be able to afford to fly or go on holiday.

Strangling the cash flow in the UK is not going to help any UK industry.

Must say that I agree completely with the above statement. It appears to me that those at the top of the food chain be it MP's or corporate heads still get cracking pay rises when those further down have to split whats left between them. Besides, why the hell are MP's so well off??? all they do is represent us (supposedly!), its not as if they do anything useful..

How can companies justify the pay rises of their leaders?? Remember, these folks will get large bonuses as well so how come they get a silly% pay rise??

:mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::mad::ugh::mad::mad::rolleyes::mad: :mad:

Spamcan

His is more based on cost saving performance than any other!

NATS financial statement March 2008

http://www.nats.co.uk/uploads/user/N...rch%202008.pdf

Might help with any questions we have :rolleyes:


Earlier statements Financial & Business Reports old - NATS

I think i needs the Idiots Guide version !!!!
http://www.augk18.dsl.pipex.com/Smileys/stoopid.gif

The Cap refers to PENSIONABLE pay. What this means that if the annual pay rise is RPI + 3% the only RPI + 0.5% of that will be contributing to your pension pot.

The actual payrises won't be capped.

In recent history, our pay rises have not really gone much over RPI + 0.5% anyway, nor do I expect they will be more than that in the near future.

Chances are that if they did... Say we got RPI + 1%, I would imagine the 0.5% that would be non-pensionable would end up being paid as a lump sum. Nice and simple.

In general... It looks like a complete cave-in by the TUs. They are now proposing to us the same proposal NATS made to them that they threatened strikes over.... How does that work?

That's where "working together" gets us.

This crap has got to stop, otherwise a I feel a vote of no confidence in our union reps is called for :mad:

on the contrary, i would have thought they would have come up with quite a good pay offer to 'grease the wheels'. one small but substantial one off payment to help save millions over 15 years.

Banding....

Fair in principle, but unfair in practice...

Although there is a definite reason to pay some ATCO's more at certain units than others, the banding system is very flawed. The scoring of a unit doesnt really reflect sometimes what that unit does, it would be a bit like scoring an airport on pax numbers against aircraft movements. higher pax numbers doesnt always mean higher movements. Issues in sense of the service, complexity of the airspace etc that some of these units provide isnt always fully taken into account. There are some bandings that are based on history rather than true workload, approach atco's that are now providing the service from TC, whichin fact are now only radar rated other than when they were tower and approach rated are now bands higher for doing the same job or as i just said in fact less.

But the biggest issue is that although when banding came out it may have been ok, following pay rise after pay rise as resulted in the gap becoming more between the units. When it was introduced a difference between Bands could have been 5k it is in some cases now over 20k. A percentage of more is more...The bandings need re addressing, they need to see that if we continue along the vain of just giving percentage pay rises with no actually changes to the band levels then this gap is going to become enormous.

You have a situation now where a Watch manager/deputy earns less money than a Joe bloggs controller, with less ratings, working at a unit that is almost comparitvely as busy/complex as the unit they are at.

in fact any of the NSL approach/tower units other than manchester, all the watch managers and deputies earn less than a luton/stansted/thames approach only controller.

Not the best selling point is it when we try to encourage people to do more than just be an ATCO, not really a career development pusher.

Im for banding but please make it fair, we dont just need a percentage pay rise this year we need the whole scales looking at, need to address the fairness off the bandings, and look at better renumiration for those that are in Watch/deputy Management posts.

3 miles

Well put! I do not expect to be paid the same as bigger units but nearer to their wage without the huge gulf.

Manc tower may soon suffer when they no longer hang onto the coat tails of their area unit when they move, or more realistically when they finally lose their contract which haemorrhages money daily.

A suggestion would be to give the lower band units a spine point or 2 to narrow the bands but seeing as there would be nothing in that for the Band 4/5 units, who have the majority vote and look after themselves, then you haven't got a cat in hells chance.

Nothing will ever change on this Banding bol:mad:ocks.I mentioned this to our local union rep and was told if you don't like it,then leave.:hmm::hmm: So that's what I recommend to people thinking of working abroad,elsewhere etc.
Although people say the pension/pay/banding issue isn't linked,it is.People are waiting to see what happens,and if NATS are really going to shoot themselves in the foot on pensions.You have to look at the overall package.
If NATS destroy the reason that most people are loyal,THE PENSION,then people will look at units closer to where it suits them.No reason to work for NATS anymore.Band 2 pay is about what you'll get outside roughly,but with less traffic,further south if you hail from that area,and even with some a pension scheme.
We have lost about the same ratio of controllers to Dubai as Heathrow has.We will lose a lot more.:uhoh: