MACC go on strike
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NAV Canada
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This is not about relocation packages its about quality of life. Many MACC ATCOs came to Manchester (fortunately i agree) because of failure to validate at LATCC, reasons being the eliteist few who seek to enhance their own inadequacies in life. These Student ATCOs in the main had a difficult time at LATCC and had to undergo what i beleive is called a training review, where they practically have to beg for another chance... hardly a situation anyone would relish.
So, why do these eliteist members feel MACC ATCOs are lucky?? Are they applying to lose their quality of life by moving to NSC?? Hardly!
Truth is, MACC doesnt want a move south either it just wants the truth from the start and answers as to why the staff have NEVER been part of the discussion/decision stages of this farce. MACC ATCOs have now been promised meetings individually with management to discuss their options!!! They are but two, Prestwick or leave, and as Prestwick doesnt suit so many then i fear NATS remaining staff will burden the brunt of yet more staff shortage as quality staff move abroad leaving a bigger farce in their wake.
Staff are NATs biggest and only asset, apparently we are the future....or maybe the start of NATs past.
So, why do these eliteist members feel MACC ATCOs are lucky?? Are they applying to lose their quality of life by moving to NSC?? Hardly!
Truth is, MACC doesnt want a move south either it just wants the truth from the start and answers as to why the staff have NEVER been part of the discussion/decision stages of this farce. MACC ATCOs have now been promised meetings individually with management to discuss their options!!! They are but two, Prestwick or leave, and as Prestwick doesnt suit so many then i fear NATS remaining staff will burden the brunt of yet more staff shortage as quality staff move abroad leaving a bigger farce in their wake.
Staff are NATs biggest and only asset, apparently we are the future....or maybe the start of NATs past.
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southampton
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"Many MACC ATCOs came to Manchester (fortunately i agree) because of failure to validate at LATCC, reasons being the eliteist few who seek to enhance their own inadequacies in life."
Fidgell, I agree completely. Why should that elitist few get a second chance at MACC to "enhance their own inadequacies". LATCC OJTIs will have put a lot of hard work in trying to get these "few" to validation standard and then had to take the very difficult decision (and it is difficult) to terminate their training. And what do these ungrateful "eliteist few" then go and do? Beg to be sent to MACC so they can get a better quality of life than their colleagues at LATCC, LACC, and Scottish. Shame on them.
Fidgell, I'm sorry you have to work with such people, however it sounds like they will leave NATS rather than move North so when you start at the NSC you'll be rid of them.
Fidgell, I agree completely. Why should that elitist few get a second chance at MACC to "enhance their own inadequacies". LATCC OJTIs will have put a lot of hard work in trying to get these "few" to validation standard and then had to take the very difficult decision (and it is difficult) to terminate their training. And what do these ungrateful "eliteist few" then go and do? Beg to be sent to MACC so they can get a better quality of life than their colleagues at LATCC, LACC, and Scottish. Shame on them.
Fidgell, I'm sorry you have to work with such people, however it sounds like they will leave NATS rather than move North so when you start at the NSC you'll be rid of them.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NAV Canada
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ahhh is Arkady a comedian?? Or are they just one of those eliteist few scared to admit someone new to NATS may well be able to do their job too???
Student ATCOs beware of Arkady, youll see them whispering in the staff rooms of NERC too cowardly to help you by giving you ongoing training and support, but instead telling you when all hope is lost....
Not all is bad though trainees, hope lies the other end of the M6 where helpful people, proud of your success at the college will walk you through the final stages of training into your career. NSC or not that will not change. Youll be welcome!
Student ATCOs beware of Arkady, youll see them whispering in the staff rooms of NERC too cowardly to help you by giving you ongoing training and support, but instead telling you when all hope is lost....
Not all is bad though trainees, hope lies the other end of the M6 where helpful people, proud of your success at the college will walk you through the final stages of training into your career. NSC or not that will not change. Youll be welcome!
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Southampton
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fidgell
What possible advantage can anyone gain from failing trainees? LATCC and LACC are desperately short of controllers and while we remain short it is the valid ATCOs who suffer. There are no hidden agendas. If someones training is terminated it is because they are not making the required progress. Any student feeling victimised by a milestone assessment has the daily report forms to refute any perceived injustice. The decision to terminate training is made by the whole training team, OJTIs and WTM and it is based on the Students daily progress. What you imagine happens simply is not possible.
When you were chopped it was because you were not good enough for the amount of time invested in you. Accept it, learn from it and move on.
What possible advantage can anyone gain from failing trainees? LATCC and LACC are desperately short of controllers and while we remain short it is the valid ATCOs who suffer. There are no hidden agendas. If someones training is terminated it is because they are not making the required progress. Any student feeling victimised by a milestone assessment has the daily report forms to refute any perceived injustice. The decision to terminate training is made by the whole training team, OJTIs and WTM and it is based on the Students daily progress. What you imagine happens simply is not possible.
When you were chopped it was because you were not good enough for the amount of time invested in you. Accept it, learn from it and move on.
Join Date: Sep 1998
Location: UK
Posts: 272
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Truth is, MACC doesnt want a move south either it just wants the truth from the start and answers as to why the staff have NEVER been part of the discussion/decision stages of this farce.
errrrrr none ?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Fidgell,
Those are two of the most disgraceful posts I have read in the ATC section. You intimate that the training system chops people indiscriminately whether they deserve it or not-well that's just a load of BALIX and you know it. I suspect from your post that you failed at LATCC-well how many hours were you given-very few are chopped at less than 300 hours of live training and if they are then it is clear that they are not going to make it at that unit.
The training pressures at LACC and TC are far ahead of what is experienced at the other area units just because there are so many trainees in the system. And then when the decision is made to stop training they arrive at a quieter unit with 300+ radar hours under their belts-validation should frankly, then be a formality. And if things go badly at MACC they are given watch changes to ensure validation-a luxury we don't have at the other units.
I reckon you need to get that bloody great chip off your shoulder and grow up by realising that the system is not perfect but as Arkady states the more valid staff we have the quicker we aren't doing the double nights every cycle and the better we can cope with the glut of staff who are on individual/part-time contracts.
You're right though on one point and that is that trainees should be welcomed to your unit directly from the college-with a proviso in their contract that they will be posted to LACC or TC within 5 years. This way if the training at your unit is so good there will be a 100% validation rate and with a few years experience under their belts a very low failure rate on posting to the busier units.
I would also say that your options are precisely the same as ours in that we have no option over our future-it's Swanwick/TC or nothing unless you have a cast iron personal case-funny we never get personal cases which involve a move to the South East.
I wish you all the best up there but nobody has yet come up with arguments against the financial case and the inability to extend the operation at MACC due to ops room constraints.
Those are two of the most disgraceful posts I have read in the ATC section. You intimate that the training system chops people indiscriminately whether they deserve it or not-well that's just a load of BALIX and you know it. I suspect from your post that you failed at LATCC-well how many hours were you given-very few are chopped at less than 300 hours of live training and if they are then it is clear that they are not going to make it at that unit.
The training pressures at LACC and TC are far ahead of what is experienced at the other area units just because there are so many trainees in the system. And then when the decision is made to stop training they arrive at a quieter unit with 300+ radar hours under their belts-validation should frankly, then be a formality. And if things go badly at MACC they are given watch changes to ensure validation-a luxury we don't have at the other units.
I reckon you need to get that bloody great chip off your shoulder and grow up by realising that the system is not perfect but as Arkady states the more valid staff we have the quicker we aren't doing the double nights every cycle and the better we can cope with the glut of staff who are on individual/part-time contracts.
You're right though on one point and that is that trainees should be welcomed to your unit directly from the college-with a proviso in their contract that they will be posted to LACC or TC within 5 years. This way if the training at your unit is so good there will be a 100% validation rate and with a few years experience under their belts a very low failure rate on posting to the busier units.
I would also say that your options are precisely the same as ours in that we have no option over our future-it's Swanwick/TC or nothing unless you have a cast iron personal case-funny we never get personal cases which involve a move to the South East.
I wish you all the best up there but nobody has yet come up with arguments against the financial case and the inability to extend the operation at MACC due to ops room constraints.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,392
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
P7,
Of course, there are those of us who worked our collective behinds off and stayed here as valid controllers, while we see others who don't make it get a better quality of life and a posting to what seems like the unit of their choice.
How many times have you heard in the rest room.... "Well, I wish I'd failed my training here, then I'd be at Manchester!" Said only half in jest, because that's what it really feels like here.
But of course, that's what we get for being an 'elitist few'!!!
Of course, there are those of us who worked our collective behinds off and stayed here as valid controllers, while we see others who don't make it get a better quality of life and a posting to what seems like the unit of their choice.
How many times have you heard in the rest room.... "Well, I wish I'd failed my training here, then I'd be at Manchester!" Said only half in jest, because that's what it really feels like here.
But of course, that's what we get for being an 'elitist few'!!!
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 375
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Gonzo
That's right mate and then our frindly union nobble us. Something about "standing up for it's weakest members" I was told.
My reply was "What about the stronger ones?"
And at least you can spell elitist.
P7
That's right mate and then our frindly union nobble us. Something about "standing up for it's weakest members" I was told.
My reply was "What about the stronger ones?"
And at least you can spell elitist.
P7
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Scotland
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
re jocko0102
Hey, Jocko
What is the attraction of Edinburgh?
In case you don't know, the whole area has seen house prices rocket since the Scottish Parliament was set up there. The only advantage that EDI has over the Prestwick/Glasgow area is that it has a little less rain, should'nt bother anyone from EGCC though, it's wet there too!
Would you be one of those crass and ignorant English people that think ALL of Scotland is just like that on the Hogmanay show?
Good Luck with the alternate career.
Watchingbrief2000
What is the attraction of Edinburgh?
In case you don't know, the whole area has seen house prices rocket since the Scottish Parliament was set up there. The only advantage that EDI has over the Prestwick/Glasgow area is that it has a little less rain, should'nt bother anyone from EGCC though, it's wet there too!
Would you be one of those crass and ignorant English people that think ALL of Scotland is just like that on the Hogmanay show?
Good Luck with the alternate career.
Watchingbrief2000
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: This is the internet FFS.........
Posts: 2,921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Always easier to blame someone else though
BTW, I can't spell elitist either.
But seriously Fidgel, I think you had better go back to you Anger Management therapist and tell them that the suggestion of venting on an anonymous internet forum is just making you look a little out of your depth.
(Edited cause we all know I can't spell!)
Last edited by Jerricho; 6th Aug 2003 at 16:09.
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Cheshire, California, Geneva, and Paris
Age: 67
Posts: 867
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I understand that new EC regulation is to be introduced shortly concerning stress in the workplace. I would suggest that NATS could be sued by the staff both at LACC and Manchester concerning the stress and hassle, both domestic and professional, that has arisen from the relocation to Swanwick and the proposed relocation of Manchester. Just because we are a "Mobile Grade" and/or Operational Resource does not mean that we are not human beings, or does it?.
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: NAV Canada
Posts: 107
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, now all that hot air has passed ill respond...
Firstly, I do appreciate the pressures of having an OJTI ticket, and yes I do have one too - but i enjoy exercising the right of it, and I get a thrill from seeing a talented trainee take the final step to validation.
Im interested in some of your comments though, are you honestly calling MACC a quiet unit??? PLEASE, southeast one of Europes busiest... S29 handling more traffic than it ever did at LATCC... and sure I beleive LACC guys/gals sit in coffee rooms wanting to be us, goes without saying really
DC10, I agree some folk will have big problems with the moves as some have situations outside work that NATS just simply couldnt understand or help with. However, can any of us see them offering the continued support that this may require. They dont care, me and you are moveable items like the furniture and thus shall be treated as such.
So, I gotta go for now ( probably better open some more of my windows in anticiaption of more of the previous hot air heading north!!! ).
I for one will look forward to the liason visits of these god like coffin-dodgers err i mean senior members of staff coming to MACC to see us ATCOs who "cant hack it" doing a first class job at one of our "quieter units"...
Come on guys wake up to the real world... this one doesnt start and stop in Southampton!!!
Fidgell
Firstly, I do appreciate the pressures of having an OJTI ticket, and yes I do have one too - but i enjoy exercising the right of it, and I get a thrill from seeing a talented trainee take the final step to validation.
Im interested in some of your comments though, are you honestly calling MACC a quiet unit??? PLEASE, southeast one of Europes busiest... S29 handling more traffic than it ever did at LATCC... and sure I beleive LACC guys/gals sit in coffee rooms wanting to be us, goes without saying really
DC10, I agree some folk will have big problems with the moves as some have situations outside work that NATS just simply couldnt understand or help with. However, can any of us see them offering the continued support that this may require. They dont care, me and you are moveable items like the furniture and thus shall be treated as such.
So, I gotta go for now ( probably better open some more of my windows in anticiaption of more of the previous hot air heading north!!! ).
I for one will look forward to the liason visits of these god like coffin-dodgers err i mean senior members of staff coming to MACC to see us ATCOs who "cant hack it" doing a first class job at one of our "quieter units"...
Come on guys wake up to the real world... this one doesnt start and stop in Southampton!!!
Fidgell
Ohcirrej
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: This is the internet FFS.........
Posts: 2,921
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
That's right, the world doesn't start and stop in Southampton. I still haven't heard any comments about OKS staff and Thames/SVFR having to move. Can anybody shed light on some of their thoughts, or doesn't their opinion matter?
Fidgell, reference your enjoyment and thrill at the successful outcome of a validation, are you that narrow minded that you believe you are the only person with a ticket who feels this way? Or, do you believe TC mentors are heartless b@stards who take great pleasure in, as I'm sure you would describe it, "giving the chop". I think the only hot air being produced is through your venting.
Fidgell, reference your enjoyment and thrill at the successful outcome of a validation, are you that narrow minded that you believe you are the only person with a ticket who feels this way? Or, do you believe TC mentors are heartless b@stards who take great pleasure in, as I'm sure you would describe it, "giving the chop". I think the only hot air being produced is through your venting.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just had a thought about all this.
As the chairman of the BEC is a MACC controller,wouldn't you have thought there would have been endless motions to the Annual Conference demanding to know the truth about what the plan was for MACC. Have there been such motions from a membership who weren't being told the truth?-NO, not that I have been able to find.
There were a few about the location of the car park and claims for extra money because of the long walk into work but NONE about the lack of information about a move 200 miles north.
Seems like this really did take them by surprise or were the heads so far in the sand nobody bothered to read the business plan from two years ago.
Also I await the arguments against the financial savings from the move and the inability to expand the operation within the present ops room.
And Fidgell you're right, NATS has no responsibility for spouse/partner incomes as many of the LACC staff will verify. Yes it is painful having to move but that's what your contract says so leave or move-the option is yours.
If I'm incorrect about the motions I look forward to somebody posting a copy of what was put to conference and was the motion carried.
And as a parting shot I don't know a single OJTI who is not thrilled to see a person validate. It is the culmination of lots of hard work for both the student and for the mentors involved. And remember they are our early retirement!!
As the chairman of the BEC is a MACC controller,wouldn't you have thought there would have been endless motions to the Annual Conference demanding to know the truth about what the plan was for MACC. Have there been such motions from a membership who weren't being told the truth?-NO, not that I have been able to find.
There were a few about the location of the car park and claims for extra money because of the long walk into work but NONE about the lack of information about a move 200 miles north.
Seems like this really did take them by surprise or were the heads so far in the sand nobody bothered to read the business plan from two years ago.
Also I await the arguments against the financial savings from the move and the inability to expand the operation within the present ops room.
And Fidgell you're right, NATS has no responsibility for spouse/partner incomes as many of the LACC staff will verify. Yes it is painful having to move but that's what your contract says so leave or move-the option is yours.
If I'm incorrect about the motions I look forward to somebody posting a copy of what was put to conference and was the motion carried.
And as a parting shot I don't know a single OJTI who is not thrilled to see a person validate. It is the culmination of lots of hard work for both the student and for the mentors involved. And remember they are our early retirement!!
Last edited by 250 kts; 8th Aug 2003 at 01:06.
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Guess there weren't any motions then!!
And for Fidgell-5 new validations at LACC in the last 2 weeks-guess the "coffin dodgers" aren't doing too badly after all. roll on the early retirement. 
And for Fidgell-5 new validations at LACC in the last 2 weeks-guess the "coffin dodgers" aren't doing too badly after all. roll on the early retirement.
