MACC go on strike
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Maybe you would all like to remember that if your grades were truly mobile, you would have been able to 'sell' your skills (be they TC, Area or Manch) elsewhere.
The sad truth is that your management is saying that you are mobile enough to move North, but not quite mobile enough to move east (for example).
Treaty of Rome? Forget it. If all things were equal (ie if NATS honestly dealt with the issues of lots of UK controllers wanting to go elsewhere), you would presumably find them listening a bit more closely to what you say.
As it is, they have restricted your movements via barely legal political arm-twisting. Still, look on the bright side, your powder must STILL be dry.
The sad truth is that your management is saying that you are mobile enough to move North, but not quite mobile enough to move east (for example).
Treaty of Rome? Forget it. If all things were equal (ie if NATS honestly dealt with the issues of lots of UK controllers wanting to go elsewhere), you would presumably find them listening a bit more closely to what you say.
As it is, they have restricted your movements via barely legal political arm-twisting. Still, look on the bright side, your powder must STILL be dry.
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luke,
But that is the whole point-the grade is mobile-but it seems at MACC only to apply when it suits the individuals concerned. They signed the contract and many of them were grateful for a second chance having failed to validate at the busier units in the south east. But now that NATS have a strategy for the future with MACC moving north they cry "foul".
The ability to move east is a different issue as I suspect you well know. I have no doubt that former management twisted some arms at Maastricht to stem the possible flow from NATS but there were still a small number who made the move anyway.
There are other opportunities around the world for area but all involve major lifestyle changes and anyway which is preferable Winnipeg or Prestwick?????
I suspect things are settling down at MACC following the initial shock and that staff are coming to terms with the decision by NATS. Careful management is needed from the top down and in 5 years time people will ask what all the fuss was about.
But that is the whole point-the grade is mobile-but it seems at MACC only to apply when it suits the individuals concerned. They signed the contract and many of them were grateful for a second chance having failed to validate at the busier units in the south east. But now that NATS have a strategy for the future with MACC moving north they cry "foul".
The ability to move east is a different issue as I suspect you well know. I have no doubt that former management twisted some arms at Maastricht to stem the possible flow from NATS but there were still a small number who made the move anyway.
There are other opportunities around the world for area but all involve major lifestyle changes and anyway which is preferable Winnipeg or Prestwick?????
I suspect things are settling down at MACC following the initial shock and that staff are coming to terms with the decision by NATS. Careful management is needed from the top down and in 5 years time people will ask what all the fuss was about.
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Without wishing to enter into the playground style "our unit is better than yours" debate that some people here seem childishly intent on, I'd like to draw your attention to a few things.
Firstly regarding the move issue - may I ask - what is the actual distance between Swanwick and West Drayton?
Not massive compared to Manch to Prestwick is it really?
What some seem to forget is that a move north for us also entails moving to what is practically a different country.
You may scoff at that but it's a different educational system, a vastly different legal system and yes, a totally different sociological and cultural structure.
The same can hardly be said for a move from London to just outside can it?
Add that to the aforementioned difference in move distances and you surely can see that the MACC move is not in any way comparable to the move to NERC. It's a different kettle of fish. Or jellied eels if you like.
Also, personally I don't care *where* someone validates as long as they can do the job safely. They're my colleague and I don't like to see anyone fail no matter the unit or background. Some here seem to think that those who have been given a "second" chance (your words, not mine) are lesser mortals who don't seem to be entitled, in your eyes, to the same rights or complaints as you simply because it's not worked out for them at another unit - busier or not.
You may be busier down south, I don't really think that's an issue worthy of debate - the figures are there to prove it - but certain people here are also incredibly arrogant and egotistical in thinking their unit is "the best", they have more rights and what they say is gospel simply because they shift more blips per hour or whatever.
It's that type of attitude that's mostly unhelpful to new students and where these ridiculous cross-unit bickers come from.
Please stop the comparisons with the moves and quit with the unit-egos. We're all "supposed" to be on the same "side" and be colleagues.
Not juveniles arguing over who has the biggest conkers in the playground.
Firstly regarding the move issue - may I ask - what is the actual distance between Swanwick and West Drayton?
Not massive compared to Manch to Prestwick is it really?
What some seem to forget is that a move north for us also entails moving to what is practically a different country.
You may scoff at that but it's a different educational system, a vastly different legal system and yes, a totally different sociological and cultural structure.
The same can hardly be said for a move from London to just outside can it?
Add that to the aforementioned difference in move distances and you surely can see that the MACC move is not in any way comparable to the move to NERC. It's a different kettle of fish. Or jellied eels if you like.
Also, personally I don't care *where* someone validates as long as they can do the job safely. They're my colleague and I don't like to see anyone fail no matter the unit or background. Some here seem to think that those who have been given a "second" chance (your words, not mine) are lesser mortals who don't seem to be entitled, in your eyes, to the same rights or complaints as you simply because it's not worked out for them at another unit - busier or not.
You may be busier down south, I don't really think that's an issue worthy of debate - the figures are there to prove it - but certain people here are also incredibly arrogant and egotistical in thinking their unit is "the best", they have more rights and what they say is gospel simply because they shift more blips per hour or whatever.
It's that type of attitude that's mostly unhelpful to new students and where these ridiculous cross-unit bickers come from.
Please stop the comparisons with the moves and quit with the unit-egos. We're all "supposed" to be on the same "side" and be colleagues.
Not juveniles arguing over who has the biggest conkers in the playground.
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Niteflite
I agree that the distances involved make the MACC move North a far more formidable change than the AC move South, but they do compare. They compare because the Terms and Conditions for MACC Staff are the same as the T & C for LATCC/LACC Staff.
So do you want preferential treatment?
I think you may have a case but you will need the support of the LATCC/LACC ATCOs (who will see you getting a better deal than they got/will get) and the ScAOCC ATCOs (who are going to get nothing).
Or do you simply not want to move?
If that is the case you have two options, go North or resign. Its a pretty lousy choice to have to make if you really are dead set against Scotland and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when the time comes.
Whatever your situation the sooner you stop fighting the inevitable and get down to making the best of it the happier you will be. This isn't an argument for supporting NATS policy, its a method for dealing with change. The longer you refuse to accept it, the harder it will be when it comes.
I agree that the distances involved make the MACC move North a far more formidable change than the AC move South, but they do compare. They compare because the Terms and Conditions for MACC Staff are the same as the T & C for LATCC/LACC Staff.
So do you want preferential treatment?
I think you may have a case but you will need the support of the LATCC/LACC ATCOs (who will see you getting a better deal than they got/will get) and the ScAOCC ATCOs (who are going to get nothing).
Or do you simply not want to move?
If that is the case you have two options, go North or resign. Its a pretty lousy choice to have to make if you really are dead set against Scotland and I wouldn't want to be in your shoes when the time comes.
Whatever your situation the sooner you stop fighting the inevitable and get down to making the best of it the happier you will be. This isn't an argument for supporting NATS policy, its a method for dealing with change. The longer you refuse to accept it, the harder it will be when it comes.
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niteflite,
I'll address your points in turn.
Yes a move to Swanwick from LATCC can be compared because it includes all of the same issues. eg schooling,selling of property,loss of partner's job,moving away from long time friendships.etc.etc
Not sure the legal system is a real issue unless you intend to get on the wrong side of it!! I certainly don't hear lots of people complaining about it and indeed when it comes to property it is vastly superior. The Scottish education system is also much better than what we have down here. I also hear that there are a number who are looking to move to Canada-a different country with a different legal/education system so I think that one is laid to rest.
I only used the "failure to validate " argument as an example. I am sure that most if not all of the valid ATCOs at MACC would have no trouble validating at LATCC/LACC. But you can't defend the fact that they were happy to take a move as trainees as stated in their contract to secure their position in NATS so what is different as a valid ATCO-or as you put it should that only apply to "lesser mortals"??
There is no real attitude about traffic levels and units-it's just a fact of life that the guys at the south-east units get pasted day in day out summer and winter and often in the early hours as well-fact. They are under-staffed and many would just love to be given the opportunity to be able to escape the rat race to a quieter unit/area but know that will never be a possibility but see the likes of MACC complain when something like this happens.
Arkady is right in that the sooner you accept the inevitable the better for all concerned.
Yes we are all on the same side and work for the same company which has made a decision which hopefully will secure the jobs together with the T&C for those that continue to work for NATS.
I'll address your points in turn.
Yes a move to Swanwick from LATCC can be compared because it includes all of the same issues. eg schooling,selling of property,loss of partner's job,moving away from long time friendships.etc.etc
Not sure the legal system is a real issue unless you intend to get on the wrong side of it!! I certainly don't hear lots of people complaining about it and indeed when it comes to property it is vastly superior. The Scottish education system is also much better than what we have down here. I also hear that there are a number who are looking to move to Canada-a different country with a different legal/education system so I think that one is laid to rest.
I only used the "failure to validate " argument as an example. I am sure that most if not all of the valid ATCOs at MACC would have no trouble validating at LATCC/LACC. But you can't defend the fact that they were happy to take a move as trainees as stated in their contract to secure their position in NATS so what is different as a valid ATCO-or as you put it should that only apply to "lesser mortals"??
There is no real attitude about traffic levels and units-it's just a fact of life that the guys at the south-east units get pasted day in day out summer and winter and often in the early hours as well-fact. They are under-staffed and many would just love to be given the opportunity to be able to escape the rat race to a quieter unit/area but know that will never be a possibility but see the likes of MACC complain when something like this happens.
Arkady is right in that the sooner you accept the inevitable the better for all concerned.
Yes we are all on the same side and work for the same company which has made a decision which hopefully will secure the jobs together with the T&C for those that continue to work for NATS.
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250 kts I always enjoy reading your posts here as sometimes you talk a lot of sense and I have a great respect for you.
I do see what you are saying here and respect you for it too but I still really don't agree with you on the whole trainee and Canada thing.
People are moving to Canada out of personal choice. There is a vast difference in deciding to move out yourself then being told where and when you are going whether you like it or not.
I could also say that as a proportion of our total staffing the number of ex-LATCC trainees we have at Manch is tiny so I still really can't see what the point is arguing about them specifically when it's the rest of us that are complaining more vociferously. They're probably an easy target I suppose.
I also wasn't aware that, in the terms of their relocation up to MACC and "second chance" all those years ago, it was also stipulated that they should accept gladly wherever the company wants to shove them in 7 years time regardless of distance and feasability.
I don't really want to get all petty about this as I realise that there is little or no support from other units. I understand that and accept the reasons for it. I don't blame any of you I mean, it's not you or your families moving is it?
You can also mention the old "mobile grade" business but how often do you hear of valid ATCO's being forcefully posted to another unit so far away? Never, of course. It wouldn't be reasonable would it?
Quite.
As it stands now the company is going to be in mucho trouble come move time as at least 80% of my colleagues are seriously looking to bail out. I realise that, as has happened before, this may result in nothing and, come the time, people will indeed be wondering what all the fuss was about (see PPP etc etc etc) but that's a pretty big gamble wouldn't you say - at the moment anyhow?
I am a realist however (believe it or not) and yes, I do accept that we will be moving in 7 years time - as for how many of us and under what terms remains to be seen.
P.S. sadly, none of us at MACC can do anything about traffic levels at other units (apart from taking huge chunks of airspace of course
) as none of us are responsible for who gets posted where. So if people are bitter about being somewhere busy and being understaffed, I see no reason why those up here that voice their concerns about a wide range of issues like this one should be held accountable or their opinions be voided?
P.P.S My egotist comments weren't only aimed at people on other units.
I do see what you are saying here and respect you for it too but I still really don't agree with you on the whole trainee and Canada thing.
People are moving to Canada out of personal choice. There is a vast difference in deciding to move out yourself then being told where and when you are going whether you like it or not.
I could also say that as a proportion of our total staffing the number of ex-LATCC trainees we have at Manch is tiny so I still really can't see what the point is arguing about them specifically when it's the rest of us that are complaining more vociferously. They're probably an easy target I suppose.
I also wasn't aware that, in the terms of their relocation up to MACC and "second chance" all those years ago, it was also stipulated that they should accept gladly wherever the company wants to shove them in 7 years time regardless of distance and feasability.
I don't really want to get all petty about this as I realise that there is little or no support from other units. I understand that and accept the reasons for it. I don't blame any of you I mean, it's not you or your families moving is it?
You can also mention the old "mobile grade" business but how often do you hear of valid ATCO's being forcefully posted to another unit so far away? Never, of course. It wouldn't be reasonable would it?
Quite.
As it stands now the company is going to be in mucho trouble come move time as at least 80% of my colleagues are seriously looking to bail out. I realise that, as has happened before, this may result in nothing and, come the time, people will indeed be wondering what all the fuss was about (see PPP etc etc etc) but that's a pretty big gamble wouldn't you say - at the moment anyhow?
I am a realist however (believe it or not) and yes, I do accept that we will be moving in 7 years time - as for how many of us and under what terms remains to be seen.
P.S. sadly, none of us at MACC can do anything about traffic levels at other units (apart from taking huge chunks of airspace of course
) as none of us are responsible for who gets posted where. So if people are bitter about being somewhere busy and being understaffed, I see no reason why those up here that voice their concerns about a wide range of issues like this one should be held accountable or their opinions be voided?P.P.S My egotist comments weren't only aimed at people on other units.
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Maybe if 250 cant cope with the traffic that pastes him so much...he should move to Prestwick?? 
As for his "second chancers" maybe they were happy to move ANYWHERE to save losing their job, now having forged many years into their and their famillies lives they dont want to upset that balance with such a difficult move to somewhere vastly different in many respects? A move for a single ATCO is vastly easier than us fortunate family providers!!!
I think 250 should have a liason visit to MACC and try working the South East at 7am, oh no of course he'd do it with his hands behind his back wouldnt he....
Well 250 il fight back.... my dads harder than yours!!!
Go on, throw your rattle sonny.
Fidgell
As for his "second chancers" maybe they were happy to move ANYWHERE to save losing their job, now having forged many years into their and their famillies lives they dont want to upset that balance with such a difficult move to somewhere vastly different in many respects? A move for a single ATCO is vastly easier than us fortunate family providers!!!
I think 250 should have a liason visit to MACC and try working the South East at 7am, oh no of course he'd do it with his hands behind his back wouldnt he....
Well 250 il fight back.... my dads harder than yours!!!
Go on, throw your rattle sonny.
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Fidgell,
By the time of the posting I think you've come off a particularly arduous night shift!
There are few who can't take the constant "pasting". All I said was that some would just love to get away from the constant traffic especially as they get older but are unable to do so-fact. Fortunately for me this is not the case-yet-but who knows in the future?
I would happily come and do the 0700 session which i guess is all over by around 0800 and swap it for the Clacton or Daventry 0530 till 2330 session!!! Every unit has busy times we all know that but the SE of the UK is much less seasonal than the regions-fact.
niteflite shows the reasoned arguments at MACC not the type of posting you have treated us to in the past couple of weeks.
And I'm still waiting for the alternatives to be put forward against the NATS plan. ie. where can future airspace development happen in an already overcrowded ops room at MACC together with the vast amounts of money which are saved by the 2 centre strategy. Something which is needed if we are to maintain our current T&Cs. Also would the new centre be built at all if it were just to house the present ScOACC operation-I doubt it,and a single centre strategy is not an option-fact.
We all know that moving is unpopular but in this case necessary and we look forward to welcoming some of you guys to the south coast. I wish you all the very best wherever you end up.
By the time of the posting I think you've come off a particularly arduous night shift!
There are few who can't take the constant "pasting". All I said was that some would just love to get away from the constant traffic especially as they get older but are unable to do so-fact. Fortunately for me this is not the case-yet-but who knows in the future?
I would happily come and do the 0700 session which i guess is all over by around 0800 and swap it for the Clacton or Daventry 0530 till 2330 session!!! Every unit has busy times we all know that but the SE of the UK is much less seasonal than the regions-fact.
niteflite shows the reasoned arguments at MACC not the type of posting you have treated us to in the past couple of weeks.
And I'm still waiting for the alternatives to be put forward against the NATS plan. ie. where can future airspace development happen in an already overcrowded ops room at MACC together with the vast amounts of money which are saved by the 2 centre strategy. Something which is needed if we are to maintain our current T&Cs. Also would the new centre be built at all if it were just to house the present ScOACC operation-I doubt it,and a single centre strategy is not an option-fact.
We all know that moving is unpopular but in this case necessary and we look forward to welcoming some of you guys to the south coast. I wish you all the very best wherever you end up.
Last edited by 250 kts; 28th Aug 2003 at 01:55.
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Fidgell, I have to disagree with your comment about moves being easier for single people as opposed to families. Are you implying that people's domestic status should be included in decisions reference who should be moved and who stays? IMHO, every person will be affected my a move in their own way. Some people will relish the opportunity, and others may not cope so well.
I grant that not everybody likes change, however as has been mentioned, we ARE mobile grades. Infact, I'm sure many ATS providers the world over stipulate on initial recruitment of ATCO's the "mobile" status of staff.
And if I may, how many people in Manchester were posted there directly from the college as their first preference? Our course were told straight out it wasn't an option (and I realise we are getting into staffing issues here.......). And what is the percentage that came form other units (I'm not trying to unit-bash here) and if so, from where? I know of people in TC who have 0% chance of getting a transfer there at the moment (I know, staffing again), but I am interested in knowing how people got there in the first place.
Personally, I don't want to live in London (or within a commutable distance), but have no chance of a transfer within NATS. As are others............
I grant that not everybody likes change, however as has been mentioned, we ARE mobile grades. Infact, I'm sure many ATS providers the world over stipulate on initial recruitment of ATCO's the "mobile" status of staff.
And if I may, how many people in Manchester were posted there directly from the college as their first preference? Our course were told straight out it wasn't an option (and I realise we are getting into staffing issues here.......). And what is the percentage that came form other units (I'm not trying to unit-bash here) and if so, from where? I know of people in TC who have 0% chance of getting a transfer there at the moment (I know, staffing again), but I am interested in knowing how people got there in the first place.
Personally, I don't want to live in London (or within a commutable distance), but have no chance of a transfer within NATS. As are others............
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Jerricho,
The issue of where someone was prior to their move to MACC is largely irrelevent to them once theyve gone through the dreaded training review to plead for their job. I do feel that thinking back to college days we all hated the prospect of Aberdeen - but following a training review many cadets wouldve jumped at the chance to go there or anywhere to keep their job.
I wasnt implying someones personal life should exempt them from the move, quite the opposite. If I were a young single bloke Id hate the thought of Prestwick even more!!! Merely the fact that with a family theres so many things to consider and other peoples quality of life too. Id hate to move my family anywhere against their will to somewhere they hate just because of my job, after all thats why they have to pay me to be there!!!
Ive never doubted the fact we are a mobile grade, but where can this stop before it becomes unreasonable? A move to a new country with a different culture and the problems this can entail maybe fine for some but not for others. All we needed was a full consultation process throughout this whole matter and many would be placated by now. Granted some would still be being a problem as they love that (sure we all know colleagues like that). We arent the furniture but feel treated like it and to now be told we have a consultation with management individually is purely papering the cracks.
They feel they have to now talk to us all, and lets be honest whos gonna go in there and tell management they will leave before moving?? No, nothing good can come of these meetings so we waste more time and stir up more bad feeling.
When I arrived at MACC I thought it was another world, people with morale and eager to welcome new folk... as opposed to LATCC where the weight of the world was on all. Sadly, I now see the start of this here, and boy the future certainly aint bright or orange for some people here, or for management...Exactly! only one of these matters!!!
Were gonna loose quality staff and replace them with who?? Recruitment and training has slowed... bet theres many eastern europeans planning there move here asap.
RIP Nats??
Fidgell
The issue of where someone was prior to their move to MACC is largely irrelevent to them once theyve gone through the dreaded training review to plead for their job. I do feel that thinking back to college days we all hated the prospect of Aberdeen - but following a training review many cadets wouldve jumped at the chance to go there or anywhere to keep their job.
I wasnt implying someones personal life should exempt them from the move, quite the opposite. If I were a young single bloke Id hate the thought of Prestwick even more!!! Merely the fact that with a family theres so many things to consider and other peoples quality of life too. Id hate to move my family anywhere against their will to somewhere they hate just because of my job, after all thats why they have to pay me to be there!!!
Ive never doubted the fact we are a mobile grade, but where can this stop before it becomes unreasonable? A move to a new country with a different culture and the problems this can entail maybe fine for some but not for others. All we needed was a full consultation process throughout this whole matter and many would be placated by now. Granted some would still be being a problem as they love that (sure we all know colleagues like that). We arent the furniture but feel treated like it and to now be told we have a consultation with management individually is purely papering the cracks.
They feel they have to now talk to us all, and lets be honest whos gonna go in there and tell management they will leave before moving?? No, nothing good can come of these meetings so we waste more time and stir up more bad feeling.
When I arrived at MACC I thought it was another world, people with morale and eager to welcome new folk... as opposed to LATCC where the weight of the world was on all. Sadly, I now see the start of this here, and boy the future certainly aint bright or orange for some people here, or for management...Exactly! only one of these matters!!!
Were gonna loose quality staff and replace them with who?? Recruitment and training has slowed... bet theres many eastern europeans planning there move here asap.
RIP Nats??
Fidgell
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At last Fidgell, an intelligent post without taking cheap shots at 250 kts and others, people who's opinion many people value.
I feel you missed my point a little regarding where people were prior to being posted to Manchester. It was a legitimate question regarding where people came from and how they got there. It wasn't implying anything about "you failed but get a better chance in going to MACC", but being genuinely interested in how people who's preference it was to go there from the start of their career. Or how many people started and validated at another unit, then were posted to MACC?
We all know morale isn't the greatest in many of the units, and I can only directly speak regarding TC. But, there are some people there who were already banking on being at Swanwick, and the prospect of spending another uncertain couple of years at West Drayton depressing. Plus, at the moment, there are those who have attempted to make use of the "mobile clause" of their position to move somewhere else but alas, no chance (again I know...staffing issues are a major point here). My initial preference was TC, but under the guise of being at Swanwick by now (silly me!).
And may I throw this open to the floor as I don't know the answer to this. Did the guys and gals in Thames/SVFR at EGLL tower know the would be ending up at Swanwick in the not to distant future? Or the staff from OKS?
I feel you missed my point a little regarding where people were prior to being posted to Manchester. It was a legitimate question regarding where people came from and how they got there. It wasn't implying anything about "you failed but get a better chance in going to MACC", but being genuinely interested in how people who's preference it was to go there from the start of their career. Or how many people started and validated at another unit, then were posted to MACC?
We all know morale isn't the greatest in many of the units, and I can only directly speak regarding TC. But, there are some people there who were already banking on being at Swanwick, and the prospect of spending another uncertain couple of years at West Drayton depressing. Plus, at the moment, there are those who have attempted to make use of the "mobile clause" of their position to move somewhere else but alas, no chance (again I know...staffing issues are a major point here). My initial preference was TC, but under the guise of being at Swanwick by now (silly me!).
And may I throw this open to the floor as I don't know the answer to this. Did the guys and gals in Thames/SVFR at EGLL tower know the would be ending up at Swanwick in the not to distant future? Or the staff from OKS?
