CHIRP 108 - too much rubbish on ATIS
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For the pilots when was the last time the guff was even passed on to you by the PNF after collecting it?
I am struggling to remember it happening once in the last 8 years anything other than windshear and blocked exits apart from the met.
I am struggling to remember it happening once in the last 8 years anything other than windshear and blocked exits apart from the met.
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For the pilots when was the last time the guff was even passed on to you by the PNF after collecting it?
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Mad_Jock - to answer one of your questions (I guess you probably intended them to be rhetorical but there is an input which might help):
As a bird controller there are 4 major reasons I would ask ATC to add a "Increased bird activity in the vicinity/on the airfield" message, 2 of which are as a warning allowing you to be aware and expect to possibly take action as required.
Firstly is that I may be spending more time on the runway than usual and as such you may have to wait for a late landing clearance or you may be held from taking off whilst I clear the birds if they are settling on the airfield
Second is that I may have to ask ATC for a late Go Around or Take-off cancellation in the event that I either cannot clear the birds in time or they are transitting (e.g. Gulls or Racing Pigeons)
Third is to cover my ass as it indicates a much greater than usual birdstrike risk as the birds have risen above the level which I can properly control therefore I want you to be aware that there is an increased risk of damage to your airframe. It means that I have warned you of increased risk and passes more responsibility to you in the event of a birdstrike as you have been warned and elected to continue.
Lastly, the CAA tells us that we need to warn you if we have an increase in bird activity significantly higher than the normal levels. They also ask us on the Birdstrike Reporting Form whether you had been specifically warned of any bird activity.
However, I am very much aware that if we keep it there for too long pilots will start to 'tune-out' and its presence will no longer have any meaning. I therefore will ask for it to be removed once the 'threat' passes which may mean the message is only there for a couple of hours or it may be there for a couple of days. This is why I recently asked for a bird activity message to be removed from our ATIS as I noticed that our bird level was not actually much higher than the seasonal norm and the message had been on the ATIS for nearly a week and a half.
The only time we normally leave a message on that long is just after a major event at a nearby farm which, once a year, leads to 6-800 Crows/Rooks in the 1/4-1/2 mile undershoot as that hazard is there for that long even though we do devote resources to it constantly.
That said, from reading this thread it would seem that the airport I work at is one of the better ones for ATIS content (until we go into LVPs when we add an ATIS message about only entering and vacating at the ends of the runway for some reason) as the normal content is only Runway in use, Wx (Temps, Precipitation and Clouds <A60), QNH and runway state (if its not dryx3). 1 or 2 supervisors will include taxiway closures (all include runway exit closures) but most just tell the ATCOs to not direct aircraft into a closure. Anything that is NOTAMed is normally left OFF the ATIS unless more than a few pilots indicate that they werent aware or hadnt digested the NOTAM.
As a bird controller there are 4 major reasons I would ask ATC to add a "Increased bird activity in the vicinity/on the airfield" message, 2 of which are as a warning allowing you to be aware and expect to possibly take action as required.
Firstly is that I may be spending more time on the runway than usual and as such you may have to wait for a late landing clearance or you may be held from taking off whilst I clear the birds if they are settling on the airfield
Second is that I may have to ask ATC for a late Go Around or Take-off cancellation in the event that I either cannot clear the birds in time or they are transitting (e.g. Gulls or Racing Pigeons)
Third is to cover my ass as it indicates a much greater than usual birdstrike risk as the birds have risen above the level which I can properly control therefore I want you to be aware that there is an increased risk of damage to your airframe. It means that I have warned you of increased risk and passes more responsibility to you in the event of a birdstrike as you have been warned and elected to continue.
Lastly, the CAA tells us that we need to warn you if we have an increase in bird activity significantly higher than the normal levels. They also ask us on the Birdstrike Reporting Form whether you had been specifically warned of any bird activity.
However, I am very much aware that if we keep it there for too long pilots will start to 'tune-out' and its presence will no longer have any meaning. I therefore will ask for it to be removed once the 'threat' passes which may mean the message is only there for a couple of hours or it may be there for a couple of days. This is why I recently asked for a bird activity message to be removed from our ATIS as I noticed that our bird level was not actually much higher than the seasonal norm and the message had been on the ATIS for nearly a week and a half.
The only time we normally leave a message on that long is just after a major event at a nearby farm which, once a year, leads to 6-800 Crows/Rooks in the 1/4-1/2 mile undershoot as that hazard is there for that long even though we do devote resources to it constantly.
That said, from reading this thread it would seem that the airport I work at is one of the better ones for ATIS content (until we go into LVPs when we add an ATIS message about only entering and vacating at the ends of the runway for some reason) as the normal content is only Runway in use, Wx (Temps, Precipitation and Clouds <A60), QNH and runway state (if its not dryx3). 1 or 2 supervisors will include taxiway closures (all include runway exit closures) but most just tell the ATCOs to not direct aircraft into a closure. Anything that is NOTAMed is normally left OFF the ATIS unless more than a few pilots indicate that they werent aware or hadnt digested the NOTAM.
Last edited by Burnie5204; 11th Nov 2013 at 20:29.
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Sounds likes like you are being sensible about it. But it could be argued that it should only be placed on the ATIS until a NOTAM can be issued and a reasonable time period to allow all crew to be able to read it. ie max 24 hours on the ATIS.
For your first point late landing clearance to us is sub 500ft or even down to over the threshold. Not as some airports would like to think at 4 miles. A continue approach birdy on the runway doesn't need any prior warning.
Again go-around is expected at any point on the approach.
Ass covering accepted and at least your honest.
And if the CAA says its to be so be it. And if its the only message then that's fine.
You are 100% correct about the tuning it out I reckon more than one day and its 100% tuned out. A large % won't even pay it any attention anyway. It won't change how we fly the approach profile.
If you normally don't have any guff on the ATIS the effectiveness of the message is 1000% more than an airfield which regularly has guff additions.
The LVP's entering and exiting the runway full length is reasonable as is anything which concerns the live runway usage eg exits blocked etc. That certainly isn't guff.
Thanks for the reply.
Must admit though as a TP driver we do tend to eat birds and spit them out. I am well into double figures of bird strikes. Weirdest one was at 8000ft level in the centre of England a bird dived down into the prop as if it was aiming for it. Didn't see a single bird before that or after. Only proof that it had happen was the blood splattered every where. And I am certain most of the airports DB6 operates into would have a perm bird activity going. But its part and parcel of flying the highlands and islands. If there isn't birds about that means you in the middle of a force 7 or stronger and you have other things to worry about.
Just remembered another good one for the Guff collection.
Windsock unserviceable. Do you honestly think we are looking at the windsock while we are landing?
For your first point late landing clearance to us is sub 500ft or even down to over the threshold. Not as some airports would like to think at 4 miles. A continue approach birdy on the runway doesn't need any prior warning.
Again go-around is expected at any point on the approach.
Ass covering accepted and at least your honest.
And if the CAA says its to be so be it. And if its the only message then that's fine.
You are 100% correct about the tuning it out I reckon more than one day and its 100% tuned out. A large % won't even pay it any attention anyway. It won't change how we fly the approach profile.
If you normally don't have any guff on the ATIS the effectiveness of the message is 1000% more than an airfield which regularly has guff additions.
The LVP's entering and exiting the runway full length is reasonable as is anything which concerns the live runway usage eg exits blocked etc. That certainly isn't guff.
Thanks for the reply.
Must admit though as a TP driver we do tend to eat birds and spit them out. I am well into double figures of bird strikes. Weirdest one was at 8000ft level in the centre of England a bird dived down into the prop as if it was aiming for it. Didn't see a single bird before that or after. Only proof that it had happen was the blood splattered every where. And I am certain most of the airports DB6 operates into would have a perm bird activity going. But its part and parcel of flying the highlands and islands. If there isn't birds about that means you in the middle of a force 7 or stronger and you have other things to worry about.
Just remembered another good one for the Guff collection.
Windsock unserviceable. Do you honestly think we are looking at the windsock while we are landing?
Last edited by mad_jock; 11th Nov 2013 at 21:06.
I guess it was just my imagination but after Sully went for a swim it seemed that just about every airport in the world put "Increased bird activity in the vicinity/on the airfield" on the ATIS full time. Useful at night ! What do you do ? Divert ?
The one I love is at Heathrow which goes something like - "caution when manoeuvring in the holding area as wing tip clearance is not assured" - been on the ATIS since Orville was a boy.... feel like saying, "please advise when it is and then we'll push back" - we can't see the wing tips on our aircraft.... you know, we really should throw it back - i.e. let me know when it's safe ?
The one I love is at Heathrow which goes something like - "caution when manoeuvring in the holding area as wing tip clearance is not assured" - been on the ATIS since Orville was a boy.... feel like saying, "please advise when it is and then we'll push back" - we can't see the wing tips on our aircraft.... you know, we really should throw it back - i.e. let me know when it's safe ?
Then there are the pilot reports which are hours old!
Departed (quite a busy) UK airport and the ATIS was saying "Marked temperature inversion at 500 ft..blah.blah..."
This had been reported by a departing aircraft at 0600. We departed circa 1500 and it was still on the ATIS so I reported "No temperature inversion at 500 ft etc" and then it was taken off the ATIS. I have seen the same with wind shear which had been reported hours ago but had not been taken off as nobody had reported "Ops normal".
Cry wolf too often and people stop listening as mad jock says.
Departed (quite a busy) UK airport and the ATIS was saying "Marked temperature inversion at 500 ft..blah.blah..."
This had been reported by a departing aircraft at 0600. We departed circa 1500 and it was still on the ATIS so I reported "No temperature inversion at 500 ft etc" and then it was taken off the ATIS. I have seen the same with wind shear which had been reported hours ago but had not been taken off as nobody had reported "Ops normal".
Cry wolf too often and people stop listening as mad jock says.
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Well send them a link to this thread and suggest it maybe counter productive due to human factors to have it permanently playing.
As an alternative solution get the ground plates changed so that the "danger" area is highlighted in a different way by colour or hatching.
Anything which is constant on the ATIS for more than 24hours looses its impact value to all but the pilots that haven't heard it before. Which must be pretty much everyone now for that message.
As an alternative solution get the ground plates changed so that the "danger" area is highlighted in a different way by colour or hatching.
Anything which is constant on the ATIS for more than 24hours looses its impact value to all but the pilots that haven't heard it before. Which must be pretty much everyone now for that message.
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Yes, and the answer has been....."well, there's no evidence to say that the ATIS is too long, there are no ASRs out there from crews. So no change."
One can only say it so many times.
Out.
One can only say it so many times.
Out.
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There won't be at LHR as most aircraft will pick it up via datalink.
Still doesn't change the fact that it will be ignored by one and all. So the only people that win are the datalink suppliers who get paid for all the guff being transmitted.
But hey if it keeps them happy and some office dwellers bum covered pilots will continue to ignore it. To be fair though you do have a DATIS which is taken when everyone is parked up. Which is completely different to having a common ATIS which has to be taken while flying. I presume your arrival ATIS doesn't have has much guff in it.
Still doesn't change the fact that it will be ignored by one and all. So the only people that win are the datalink suppliers who get paid for all the guff being transmitted.
But hey if it keeps them happy and some office dwellers bum covered pilots will continue to ignore it. To be fair though you do have a DATIS which is taken when everyone is parked up. Which is completely different to having a common ATIS which has to be taken while flying. I presume your arrival ATIS doesn't have has much guff in it.
UK at its best
Gonzo
So I guess the AAIB and others are just happy to shift the blame rather than fix it - I can't see my wingtips so I guess as I taxi out/in if I hit something then I had been told ! Rainy nights are always fun moving around LHR
UK at its best
As I mentioned, perhaps time we all refused to move the aircraft if clearance is not assured
The 'wingtip clearance not assured' message is at the behest of AAIB.
UK at its best
As I mentioned, perhaps time we all refused to move the aircraft if clearance is not assured
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CAP 493 previously limited the Aerodrome Controller role to ‘assisting’ in preventing collision with regard to the manoeuvring area and the apron, and specified this as a specific responsibility of Aerodrome Control, whereas ICAO PANS-ATM states that prevention of collisions is an objective rather than being a direct controller responsibility. Therefore, the change in the CAP 493 MATS Part 1 wording from a direct responsibility of Aerodrome Control to an objective is considered to balance the change regarding from ‘assist in preventing’ to ‘prevent’.
Last edited by off watch; 13th Nov 2013 at 19:20.
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Another bit of guff...
Just what am I meant to do with threshold elevation (or is it height or altitude)? Excessive/Increased/Low/Reduced bird activity = Land/Divert/Go-around? What do I do with that information? "Visibility ten kilometres or more" is sufficient; Wind - yes please; Cloud information - yes please, up to 5,000', no more. Runway condition - Dry/Damp, say nothing; Wet - say so; contaminated, say so and then let's have the Braking Action - now that would be nice. And I don't really care if Brian has left his keys in the grasscutter or there is a broken lock in trap 3 of the gents by Duty Free.
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ACARS D-ATIS I think is a very efficient method of transmitting the data. However, from what I've observed people get lazy about reading it, hence at LHR the gumph on it gets ignored and the weather noted, even if the gumph has changed. So I think the format needs changing... New gumph needs to be highlighted by ***, and old stuff left alone.
You could even do this for a recent runway change!
It's this reason that I still listen to it... My 'auto filter' takes away the gumph!
I noted a bird man on earlier-we always assume birds are about!
Finally, are notes about wingtip clearance still needed given the redevelopment of all holding points of recent years? A review maybe??? The old holding points certainly used to get close, but now...
You could even do this for a recent runway change!
It's this reason that I still listen to it... My 'auto filter' takes away the gumph!
I noted a bird man on earlier-we always assume birds are about!
Finally, are notes about wingtip clearance still needed given the redevelopment of all holding points of recent years? A review maybe??? The old holding points certainly used to get close, but now...
