CHIRP 108 - too much rubbish on ATIS
 

Reading the latest CHIRP, one article in particular struck a massive chord. In fact, a Tony Iommi-sized chord!
While probably done with the best of intentions, there are few things more frustrating on a busy short-haul flight than having to listen to 30 or more seconds of crap on the ATIS before getting to what we, as aircrew, want - the WEATHER! The article decribes the problem perfectly, so I would just add my voice to that of the contributor. Please, please - nothing but weather on the ATIS. Possibly approach navaid outages but only if it's not NOTAMed as we will already know about it in that case. In our neck of the woods Inverness and Edinburgh are the worst offenders but by no means the only ones.
N.B. This is not meant to wind anyone up, but PLEEEEASE........it doesn't help us at all!

So what would you not want on the ATIS?

Planned runway changes? Closures of taxiways? Closures or opening of frequencies (delivery for example)? Bird information? Information on WIP?

Anything else that is often on that you would want removed?

As I haven't read the last CHIRP just interested in what you think should be excluded from the ATIS that is now there.

Chirp 108 isn't available online yet so I too haven't read it but MATS 1 would (or used to say...

Gotta love ACARS, even the spaniards learned how to put up a datalink ATIS by now. No more listening to stuff, simply press a button and get the info without one of those two up front zoning out to copy some information.

Crazy basically everything which is already NOTAM'd. needs skipped.

Some ATIS have

1. grass cutting in progress
2. fire service training in progress

etc.

And also part of a TAF attached as well.

The only info on WIP should be if any exits are blocked for the live runway.
The rest of it can be worked out on the ground. By the time we have flown the approach after getting the wx it will be forgotten about anyway. If a runway exit is blocked I put a note on our performance card and brief for the exit we are going to use.

To be honest most won't even listen to the extra stuff once they have the wx copied anyway as soon as they get the QNH it gets turned off.

As for frequency's being open we don't need to know. If ground is open that's where tower is going to send us. If Delivery is open that's where we go first anyway 99% of the time its bandboxed to who ever is doing it anyway. If its not you give two calls then try ground and if still no reply go to tower so no great shakes.

The one thing which some do put in but most don't which is handy is "controller under training" I know it shouldn't make a difference but it means most crews will give them a bit of rope and not get pissy if something strange gets said.

Most of the ATIS extra info is just pure bum covering and adds nothing to the safety of the flight.

Quite what we are meant to do differently when "grass cutting in progress" I don't know. And commercial crews /IR pilots which haven't seen a load of black smoke coming up next to a rusty heap with blues and twos around it shouldn't be flying.

LHR ATIS sometimes includes a phrase similar to: "Pilots are reminded that the read back of all clearances is mandatory!"

The only reason I can think of is that some dumb pilot didn't. So why not just remind the individual rather than telling everyone the rules? Everyone has done the Air Law exam.....

By the time it's gone in the ATIS he'll have flown away elsewhere or landed. :hmm:

Although to be fair LHR does have a lot of yanks flying into it who's readbacks are well... yankish.

Still reckon most will have forgotten it that don't know it anyway or have not even listened to it if its after the QNH.

I wonder how many actually listen to it anyway and just get there wx off the box of tricks.

MJ, I suppose one must cater for those whose first language isn't English, but the phrase isn't always included and it isn't included on the other international airport ATIS broadcasts.

The "miscreant of the day" won't be listening...he's gone!

See I don't think it is the second language speakers.

They tend to read back way way to much. And are only happy when they read back word for word everything including the wx.

In fact it takes quite a bit of work to batter them into only reading back the required items and using roger and wilco for the other stuff.

And I think Man had one about reading back hold short instructions.

Thank God I will never set foot in an airliner again! If only I had a quid for every time I'd said to a pilot: "Well, it's on the ATIS"... then there's the chaps who come on with "information Charlie" when it's "Mike"..... and "Oh, we thought it was 27L" when it really was 09L but they'd got the ATIS over North Africa and everything had changed.

Seriously, it's not the sharp-end ATCOs who are to blame nor those who record the ATIS. It's what is written down in the rules so they have to obey them. If there is an incident and it revealed that the ATCO did not ensure that the crew had the correct ATIS then he gets it in the neck.

Have any of you guys endured life without an ATIS? At previous airfields I have worked at and at Heathrow when I first started we had to read the weather and other information to every inbound! We'd wait if 3-4 were expected together, then read it.... and as sure as God made little green apples #5 would appear and we had to do it again.

we don't think it is the ATCO's.

We know its some office blunty who dictates what's on it. Who then add things thinking its a good thing but don't actually realise that.

a) it will be forgotten
b) the crews really don't care about the extras.

Most crews should get the ATIS just after the change over. If you put a special through after that more than likely they won't.

And the ATIS code thing is another thing special to the UK in Europe some days I am the only one that I hear giving it on frequency into a National Capital multi runway airport. The only others who regularly give it is speedbird.

And yes I have worked none ATIS. But in general if the cloud base is above 1000ft agl, the wind is under 15knts, your not into RVR's, your using the into wind runway all the pilots care about is the QNH for single runway airports and Runway in use and QNH if into a multiple runway airport.

You could give it "information Alpha, its lovely, QNH 1003" for all the use we make of the ATIS broadcast.

To be honest the military colour code system is a cracking way of dealing with it.

It is almost ALWAYS the sharp end atcos who are responsible for what is broadcast, or the TWR/APP sup. most of them covering their backs, if in doubt stick it on the ATIS, then at watch handover forget to have redundant info. removed.:ugh:

Amazing how things change. As both sharp-end ATCO and occasionally Supervisor (TWR and APC) I never once asked for anything to be put on the ATIS!

For example:

"Gatwick delivery, frequency 121 decimal 950 is closed. Departing aircraft are to make first contact on ground frequency 121 decimal 8" (or something similar)

But we don't care what the closed delivery frequency is!! It's hardly rocket science what the ground frequency is either... Worse still it prints all this out as well wasting my time reading through the nonsense while trying to find the real piece of information.

"Delivery frequency 121.8" would be better. Just coupling them so 121.95 patches through to GMC when GMP is closed, as they do almost everywhere else that's civilised, and taking all that out completely would be even better.

the QNH? :p:ok:

And then you report "information delta received" but it's become "echo" and ATC can't tell you what's changed so what's the point of reporting ATIS letter on first contact?

Why is it incumbent on ATC to listen and check what ATIS pilots have when it would be easier for ATC to tell pilots what the latest letter is?


Also, why tell an approach unit, physically situated in the same room as your previous sector, what the QNH is when ATC have to give pilot QNH on first descent to an altitude?


Surely that's too any QNHs? There's already too much to remember on first contact, it's a waste of RT time.

/rant over/

CHIRP 108 - too much rubbish on ATIS
 

Crazy Voyager, everything but the weather should be removed. Airfield navaid outages are useful but ONLY if they are not NOTAMed. Nothing else at all.
All the rest of it is just wasted time and often at a busy phase of flight if the ATIS is short range.

Hmmm.. a few pilots on here need Valium!

I'm in no position to change any of it (fortunately or not I don't know), just interested to see what people had to say on the subject.

Or maybe a week off after doing 6 days of 11 hours duty after one day off and 5 days starting at 4am of 9 hours duty before that. Instead of two days off and then the same again. Or one day off if they have already gone to EU FTLS. Flying 4-6 sectors a day.

I know it might sound moany and windging but surely ATIS should be for what the pilot actually needs not what someone wants us to have so it covers thier backside.

The QNH thing personally doesn`t bother me but it would make an interesting experiment to see how many changes and by how much between frequency before pilots started quering it. Sometimes it gets given a read back so often it just goes in your ear and out your mouth especially when you have 1013 set. Until we are cleared down to an alt it doesn`t really have any real relevence to our operation in controlled airspace.