Spanish ATCOs earning £800,000 two years ago! Anything changed?
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There is no problem. Station Calling¿ I'm essorry, esstandard routing.
This video is always worth pointing out when we are on the subject. This behavior while on active duty is a good summing up.
They aren't being dishonest, they genuinely think they are the best. Their inability to comprehend how low in the rankings they stand is really the bit to marvel at.
Nepotism and cronyism run rife in many aspects of Spanish life and in civil service recruitment it has been particularly acute. This is what happens when you employ people who want to be civil servants for financial and security reasons and have no real interest in aviation, air traffic controlling or display any apparent aptitude for the job.
I expect that many of them will argue black is white in the face of incontrovertible facts to the contrary. We all have our national traits and this ability and tendency is theirs.
They aren't being dishonest, they genuinely think they are the best. Their inability to comprehend how low in the rankings they stand is really the bit to marvel at.
Nepotism and cronyism run rife in many aspects of Spanish life and in civil service recruitment it has been particularly acute. This is what happens when you employ people who want to be civil servants for financial and security reasons and have no real interest in aviation, air traffic controlling or display any apparent aptitude for the job.
I expect that many of them will argue black is white in the face of incontrovertible facts to the contrary. We all have our national traits and this ability and tendency is theirs.
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Spanish ATCOs are the best in the "flight plan adherence" iniciative by Eurocontrol. All pilots fliying in spanish airspace agree with that. 99% of flights or even more stick now to their flight plan in Spain, don´t you agree with that?.
Lots of pilots (spanish pilots in spanish forums also) complained about LEMD app, saying they were given vectos very far from the airport, sometimes up to 100 miles, and said London was a good example, with holdings when needed. Now they have holdings when needed and also complain. It is clearly imposible to make all pilots happy.
Our only "black hole" are the 47 class A incidents in 2010. But a spanish politician said they were "misssing" 2 weeks ago. Well, you really can´t expect we are up to the job if we can´t rest the minimum time per week establish by spanish law, 36 hours, than AENA has been "ignoring" for the last 2 years.
Finally slots and delays are never our fault. It is the system capacity. A controller NEVER issue a slot, it is CFMU, according to the capacity of the system. When I go to work I am told where to work and what is the capacity of the sector, have no option to change that, so don´t blame me for the system dessing failures. LECM has the same configuration as it had in 2003, and seems the traffic and demand has changed since then... don´t expect changes in the near future as the managment staff are totally inept for their job.
That´s all.
Lots of pilots (spanish pilots in spanish forums also) complained about LEMD app, saying they were given vectos very far from the airport, sometimes up to 100 miles, and said London was a good example, with holdings when needed. Now they have holdings when needed and also complain. It is clearly imposible to make all pilots happy.
Our only "black hole" are the 47 class A incidents in 2010. But a spanish politician said they were "misssing" 2 weeks ago. Well, you really can´t expect we are up to the job if we can´t rest the minimum time per week establish by spanish law, 36 hours, than AENA has been "ignoring" for the last 2 years.
Finally slots and delays are never our fault. It is the system capacity. A controller NEVER issue a slot, it is CFMU, according to the capacity of the system. When I go to work I am told where to work and what is the capacity of the sector, have no option to change that, so don´t blame me for the system dessing failures. LECM has the same configuration as it had in 2003, and seems the traffic and demand has changed since then... don´t expect changes in the near future as the managment staff are totally inept for their job.
That´s all.
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Some tight vectoring over there
Incident: Brussels A319 and Iberia A320 at Barcelona on Feb 8th 2012, loss of separation on final approach
Incident: Brussels A319 and Iberia A320 at Barcelona on Feb 8th 2012, loss of separation on final approach
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Spanish ATCOs are the best in the "flight plan adherence" iniciative by Eurocontrol,
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Well, lateral flight plan adherence in spain is pretty much 100%. Since they are too afraid to give directs and do not know how to do that in the first place of course lateral adherence is great. Vertical adherence however is very very low indeed because they are not flexible enough anymore to clear one up according to flight plan while changing the lateral path to accomodate that. Means that flying through spain costs quite a lot more fuel than calculated, several millions worth of fuel per year which is equally bad for the environment and of course the airlines.
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Guys, some of you are really funny.
After 6 years of ATCO in Fuerteventura what I ´ve learned is:
Italian pilots fly same as they play football. Cheating, lies, ... I´m really fed up of hear " TWR, in 2 minutes we arrrrrre rrrrready for push-back, Is possible an extension of the slot? WTF!!!!!
Some of the english, (fortunately not all) Mate you are not sitting in Manchester asking for a pint of guinness in your local pub, so if you don´t mind, speak aeronautical english, not slang.
So, Italian, English, French,.... Many of you Captains should do a little of self-criticism before saying "Spanish atc is the worst of Europe..."
By the way, German, IMHO are the best, polite and professional people flying our skies.
After 6 years of ATCO in Fuerteventura what I ´ve learned is:
Italian pilots fly same as they play football. Cheating, lies, ... I´m really fed up of hear " TWR, in 2 minutes we arrrrrre rrrrready for push-back, Is possible an extension of the slot? WTF!!!!!
Some of the english, (fortunately not all) Mate you are not sitting in Manchester asking for a pint of guinness in your local pub, so if you don´t mind, speak aeronautical english, not slang.
So, Italian, English, French,.... Many of you Captains should do a little of self-criticism before saying "Spanish atc is the worst of Europe..."
By the way, German, IMHO are the best, polite and professional people flying our skies.
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Spanish ATS (Air Traffic Services) can be a pain, but rather than pointing to the individuals that provide the service, why don't you care to look a bit further up the chain-of-command?
I'm not here to defend anyone, and I have been at the receiving end many times and I don't wear their shirt, but I'm pretty sure if an ATCO makes a mess because for a moment he/she decided to think outside the box and give a guy a direct or whatever, the rainfall of defecal matter from management could be of astronomic proportions (any of the guys here correct me if I'm wrong).
I think the company culture and mostly management are to blame for the lack of efficiency of AENA, not the individuals.
Same goes for most public services, government, etc... although sometimes I think maybe we Spaniards are to blame for allowing it to be like that.
btw... I read in this thread somewhere that the average salary in Spain is 2300€/month, that may be the statistical average, but the "normal" salary for a normal worker is 800-1000€/month, and cost of life and taxes are not much lower than the rest of Europe.
I'm not here to defend anyone, and I have been at the receiving end many times and I don't wear their shirt, but I'm pretty sure if an ATCO makes a mess because for a moment he/she decided to think outside the box and give a guy a direct or whatever, the rainfall of defecal matter from management could be of astronomic proportions (any of the guys here correct me if I'm wrong).
I think the company culture and mostly management are to blame for the lack of efficiency of AENA, not the individuals.
Same goes for most public services, government, etc... although sometimes I think maybe we Spaniards are to blame for allowing it to be like that.
btw... I read in this thread somewhere that the average salary in Spain is 2300€/month, that may be the statistical average, but the "normal" salary for a normal worker is 800-1000€/month, and cost of life and taxes are not much lower than the rest of Europe.
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A little bit of thread drift, but in view of the fact that the OP has disappeared off the face of the earth, thus confirming my original suspicion that he is either a sick journo or someone just trying to stir the pot with a known inflammatory subject...
pablo... I totally agree with you...
This is so true... for those who may be interested and for the benefit of others so quick to decry the efforts of the Spanish people, two links which demonstrate just what the youth of today is up against...
1,000 euros a month? Dream on
The frustration of young Spain | In english | EL PAÍS
These people are Spain's future.
pp
pablo... I totally agree with you...
Spanish ATS (Air Traffic Services) can be a pain, but rather than pointing to the individuals that provide the service, why don't you care to look a bit further up the chain-of-command?
I'm not here to defend anyone, and I have been at the receiving end many times and I don't wear their shirt, but I'm pretty sure if an ATCO makes a mess because for a moment he/she decided to think outside the box and give a guy a direct or whatever, the rainfall of defecal matter from management could be of astronomic proportions (any of the guys here correct me if I'm wrong).
I think the company culture and mostly management are to blame for the lack of efficiency of AENA, not the individuals.
Same goes for most public services, government, etc... although sometimes I think maybe we Spaniards are to blame for allowing it to be like that.
btw... I read in this thread somewhere that the average salary in Spain is 2300€/month, that may be the statistical average, but the "normal" salary for a normal worker is 800-1000€/month, and cost of life and taxes are not much lower than the rest of Europe.
I'm not here to defend anyone, and I have been at the receiving end many times and I don't wear their shirt, but I'm pretty sure if an ATCO makes a mess because for a moment he/she decided to think outside the box and give a guy a direct or whatever, the rainfall of defecal matter from management could be of astronomic proportions (any of the guys here correct me if I'm wrong).
I think the company culture and mostly management are to blame for the lack of efficiency of AENA, not the individuals.
Same goes for most public services, government, etc... although sometimes I think maybe we Spaniards are to blame for allowing it to be like that.
btw... I read in this thread somewhere that the average salary in Spain is 2300€/month, that may be the statistical average, but the "normal" salary for a normal worker is 800-1000€/month, and cost of life and taxes are not much lower than the rest of Europe.
1,000 euros a month? Dream on
The frustration of young Spain | In english | EL PAÍS
These people are Spain's future.
pp
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Hello everyone guys,
I was reading this 3D and I saw there were some replys from a couple of spanish ATCO like Sonnendec and Aldegar and that they seems two fair guys open to a talk.
I just would like to ask you a few things, without any polemics, just to better understand your point of view and the reason why you do what you r doing.
Since one year and a half I am based in BCN El Prat with Ryanair, we do a lot of domestic flights inside Spain and the fact I really dont understand is why you guys dont give any more direct routing or any FL changes.
I know you are fed up with AENA for many reasons, you would like a better contract etc etc, but I really dont see how acting with this kind of "white strike" (no shortcuts, no FL's) can help you to obtain what you want.
You then always answer :"I call you back if possible" when you, and us, already know its not gonna happen.
Second little point I dont like/understand is this general aggressivity and impatience that it comes out in your trasmissions especially when we start asking for a repetition of an instruction; stuff like "yes Sir, as I ALREADY TOLD YOU..." is very common to hear.
From my little exp. you dont really hear that in any other country.
Ok no I stop, I really hope we can open a nice discussion with you guys Spain ATCO.
Waiting for some feedback
A nice day
I was reading this 3D and I saw there were some replys from a couple of spanish ATCO like Sonnendec and Aldegar and that they seems two fair guys open to a talk.
I just would like to ask you a few things, without any polemics, just to better understand your point of view and the reason why you do what you r doing.
Since one year and a half I am based in BCN El Prat with Ryanair, we do a lot of domestic flights inside Spain and the fact I really dont understand is why you guys dont give any more direct routing or any FL changes.
I know you are fed up with AENA for many reasons, you would like a better contract etc etc, but I really dont see how acting with this kind of "white strike" (no shortcuts, no FL's) can help you to obtain what you want.
You then always answer :"I call you back if possible" when you, and us, already know its not gonna happen.
Second little point I dont like/understand is this general aggressivity and impatience that it comes out in your trasmissions especially when we start asking for a repetition of an instruction; stuff like "yes Sir, as I ALREADY TOLD YOU..." is very common to hear.
From my little exp. you dont really hear that in any other country.
Ok no I stop, I really hope we can open a nice discussion with you guys Spain ATCO.
Waiting for some feedback
A nice day
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Italian pilots fly same as they play football. Cheating, lies, ... I´m really fed up of hear " TWR, in 2 minutes we arrrrrre rrrrready for push-back, Is possible an extension of the slot? WTF!!!!!
As for the Brits, in my experience they are amongst the most polite crews around. Clear, smart and cooperative. Oh and believe me, none of them has ever burped on my frequency following a drinking session in a Manchester pub - yet!
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Hands up all the pilots who have been saying disparaging things about Spanish (& other) ATCs and who work for an employer who imposes the working conditions endured by Spanish controllers.
I'd be pretty disinterested in doing a decent job regardless of how much of an "aviation person" I was.
I'd also expect a pretty darned good salary** to allow my employer to:
1. Compulsorily call me back to work on my off duty days - no arguments, no options, and no reinstatement of said "rest" days on alternative dates.
2. Cancel the annual leave I had had approved (and maybe had laid out a wad of cash on an overseas trip) without explanation other than to say it's for "service continuance" - ie we've buggered up the roster and you've been fingered to bail us out. If the leave is re scheduled for another date there's no reason the same thing will not occur.
Treat your workers fairly & well and they'll go the extra mile for you - treat them like s**t and you'll get back what you deserve.
** On second thoughts I'd tell him to stick his job up his bum!!
I'd be pretty disinterested in doing a decent job regardless of how much of an "aviation person" I was.
I'd also expect a pretty darned good salary** to allow my employer to:
1. Compulsorily call me back to work on my off duty days - no arguments, no options, and no reinstatement of said "rest" days on alternative dates.
2. Cancel the annual leave I had had approved (and maybe had laid out a wad of cash on an overseas trip) without explanation other than to say it's for "service continuance" - ie we've buggered up the roster and you've been fingered to bail us out. If the leave is re scheduled for another date there's no reason the same thing will not occur.
Treat your workers fairly & well and they'll go the extra mile for you - treat them like s**t and you'll get back what you deserve.
** On second thoughts I'd tell him to stick his job up his bum!!
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I doubt very much slowing down other traffics is a standard practice among IB captains. Probably there is an icehole or two, same as in any other company, but what you are saying I think is over the top.
And ATC giving priority to IB and ANS traffic, I find it hard to believe that it's also an standard practice.
I understand Spanish ATC service can be close to infuriating in some cases but... some of this stuff I think is too much, and I think you keep on blaming the "individual", instead of looking further up.
And I think IB pilots have nothing to do with IB Express.
And ATC giving priority to IB and ANS traffic, I find it hard to believe that it's also an standard practice.
I understand Spanish ATC service can be close to infuriating in some cases but... some of this stuff I think is too much, and I think you keep on blaming the "individual", instead of looking further up.
And I think IB pilots have nothing to do with IB Express.
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And ATC giving priority to IB and ANS traffic, I find it hard to believe that it's also an standard practice.
Last time it was in Alicante where we were told to ''standard arrival and reduce minimum clean'' at 50+ miles out only to see on our right wing an Iberia A320 fly by at high speed to become number one...
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I can't tell you are a liar or that it was a one-off occurrence what happened to you because it's been a long time I flew IFR in Spain (and never been an airline pilot), but if that's a standard practice it's unacceptable.
I know they have a bad habit of delaying GA traffic (including bizjets), but I expected airlines to be treated equally.
But even then, I think the guy providing the service is just the messenger, the orders come from above. If I wanted to land at Phoenix Sky Harbor in a DA40 and ATC management said it was not possible, even though the best intentions and wishes of the controller giving the service, I could not have landed there, I don't know if you guys follow me.
I will give you an example... I used to freelance for Flight Precision when they were doing navaid calibration for Aena, and the ones deciding when they could fly, perform approaches, etc... were the APP and TWR bosses and ultimately higher management from Madrid. In all Spanish airports they had a lot of restrictions, while in other countries their job was very easy.
So was it because all Spanish controllers are useless or maybe because the managers didn't want to push it? I'm talking 5-6 yrs ago.
And the amount of pressure we had from Aena management was not easy to bear for me, as I was 22-23 at the time and still fairly naive.
Besides I also worked for Aena in the ARO at LEVX, and in the FBO which involved dealing a lot with Aena staff and management.
So that's why I'm telling you to not really blame the controllers but look a bit further up, because I think I know what I'm talking about.
I know they have a bad habit of delaying GA traffic (including bizjets), but I expected airlines to be treated equally.
But even then, I think the guy providing the service is just the messenger, the orders come from above. If I wanted to land at Phoenix Sky Harbor in a DA40 and ATC management said it was not possible, even though the best intentions and wishes of the controller giving the service, I could not have landed there, I don't know if you guys follow me.
I will give you an example... I used to freelance for Flight Precision when they were doing navaid calibration for Aena, and the ones deciding when they could fly, perform approaches, etc... were the APP and TWR bosses and ultimately higher management from Madrid. In all Spanish airports they had a lot of restrictions, while in other countries their job was very easy.
So was it because all Spanish controllers are useless or maybe because the managers didn't want to push it? I'm talking 5-6 yrs ago.
And the amount of pressure we had from Aena management was not easy to bear for me, as I was 22-23 at the time and still fairly naive.
Besides I also worked for Aena in the ARO at LEVX, and in the FBO which involved dealing a lot with Aena staff and management.
So that's why I'm telling you to not really blame the controllers but look a bit further up, because I think I know what I'm talking about.
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I doubt very much slowing down other traffics is a standard practice among IB captains.
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I thought you meant flying, that's why I was finding it really weird.
Taxiing... no clue really why they would taxi slow. Maybe you are catching them in the start of the rotation (if you are a lucky guy like me
), in the last day of the rotation they probably do better taxi speeds.
Taxiing... no clue really why they would taxi slow. Maybe you are catching them in the start of the rotation (if you are a lucky guy like me
), in the last day of the rotation they probably do better taxi speeds.
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Hello guys!
I was doing some research and this came to my attention: Newsvine - Spanish air traffic controllers' salaries are 'millionaire salaries'
I have heard about this before, but now I looked at the date of these articles (there were more than just this one) and it is January 2010, making it 2 years old. I am wondering whether anything has changed since then. From what I have read, the government wanted to bring the average salary down as soon as possible. It's been two years now and it would be great to have a slight update on what is happening now and whether the wages have been lowered, raised (I doubt! ;p) or stayed the same.
Thanks
I was doing some research and this came to my attention: Newsvine - Spanish air traffic controllers' salaries are 'millionaire salaries'
I have heard about this before, but now I looked at the date of these articles (there were more than just this one) and it is January 2010, making it 2 years old. I am wondering whether anything has changed since then. From what I have read, the government wanted to bring the average salary down as soon as possible. It's been two years now and it would be great to have a slight update on what is happening now and whether the wages have been lowered, raised (I doubt! ;p) or stayed the same.
Thanks
I will not write about Spanish situation or political mismanagement. I am not criticizing anything. This is not my point of view, I just want you to know the truth. I will write down the reliable sources, accurately, not approximated figures read in forums or rumours.
Regards.
Spain:
The salary is established in the official state bulletin, concretely in the “BOE 9Marzo2011-4372”. This document changed the previous collective agreement and is the one under which AENA ATCO's are currently undergoing. In it you can read the gross salary in pages 140 to 145, which is divided according to the professional level. You can read the professional level division in page 66.
Annual working hours: maximum 1670 hours (plus max. 80 extra hours per year) in 2011 and 2012 , maximum 1595 hours (plus max. 80 extra hours per year ) in 2013 (Page 8).
Source: http://www.boe.es/boe/dias/2011/03/09/pdfs/BOE-A-2011-4372.pdf
Nevertheless, regarding the new TWR ATCO’s the situation is completely different. These are the true conditions that FerroNATS is currently offering in its towers, at least in LEJR (Jerez): with up to 4 years of previous experience a gross annual salary of 32K€, 4-7 years of previous experience 36K€ gross, more than 7 years of previous experience 40K€ gross. A bonus of 1120€-2400€ if you are supervisor, instructor or evaluator, and a 3000€ TWR complement.
Source: https://hotfile.com/dl/150437051/5fe98b3/Ferronats.pdf.html
Skyguide (Switzerland):
First license: annual salary of CHF 89'200 (74000€) to 99'500 (82500€).
One year after obtaining full licence: from CHF 105'627 (87500€) to 137'909 (114500€).
After 25 years: from CHF 151'359 (125500€) to 195'074 (161500€).
Source: http://www.skyguide.ch/en/company/careers/air-traffic-controller/
Eurocontrol (MUAC):
Advanced trainee air traffic controller: 3178€ monthly net salary (3802€-Single expatriate).
Air traffic controller: 3716€ monthly net salary (4457€-Single expatriate).
“Household” and “Child” allowances and the “ATC allowance” are not included. Working shifts entitles staff to payment of a flat-rate shift allowance which is set at € 1530 for those working a 24/7 shift .
Source: http://www.eurocontrol.int/faq/air-traffic-controller-jobs (What is the salary of an air traffic controller at EUROCONTROL?)
NATS (UK):
(2009/10 rates)
Once valid at a unit: £29,443 (35K€) - £32,814 (39K€), depending on the unit.
When you become an ATCO - on your third joining anniversary, subject to validation: £42,061 (50K€) - £46,878 (55800€) plus shift pay of £5,543 (6500€). After qualifying, you could potentially earn over £91,000 (108500€) (inclusive of shift pay) at Swanwick and Heathrow.
Source: http://atcocareers.co.uk/pages/air-traffic-controllers/faqs.html (Terms and conditions>What are the salary and salary prospects?)
Belgocontrol (Belgium):
After training: 3100€ gross/month.
When you succeed in obtaining the title of ADR, ACS or APS: 5900€ - 6900€ gross/month depending on the position.
Source: http://www.belgocontrol.be/belgoweb/publishing.nsf/AttachmentsByTitle/FAQ_en.pdf/$FILE/FAQ_en.pdf (page 1)
LVNL (Netherlands):
At the start of your course, which lasts about four years: 26500€ gross per year.
After fully qualified: 75000€. Experienced ATCO: 120000€.
Source: http://www.studentenwerk.nl/vacatures/40591-the-sky-is-the-limit-als-luchtverkeersleider (Goede verdiensten)
Naviair (Denmark)
During UNIT training, which lasts about 18 months: 18,000 kr.(2400€) per month.
A newly-qualified ATCO with the work in Copenhagen, serving the first year approx. DKK 550,000 (74000€) per year, increasing to approx. 900,000 kr.(121000€).
Source: http://www.flyveleder.com/Default.aspx?id=30&newsid30=6 or
www.flyveleder.com/ref.aspx?id=218
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allrounder99, Zapatero (Spanish prime minister until last year) said that the crisis was over, Bush said that in Irak he would find mass destruction weapons,... nonsense
What you just said in your post is nonsense!
But I'll tell you something if they paid me that per hour it would be great!!
I just ask you one thing believe what us, Spanish controllers, are telling you, if I could I would move to any country in Europe with all my family but no atcos offers at the moment.
Regards
What you just said in your post is nonsense!
But I'll tell you something if they paid me that per hour it would be great!!
I just ask you one thing believe what us, Spanish controllers, are telling you, if I could I would move to any country in Europe with all my family but no atcos offers at the moment.
Regards