us v them
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us v them
Us v them, is not a viable scenario where safety is the main objective
There have been a number of recent threads that very much seems to indicate that there is a great lack of understanding between the work and requirements of controllers and that of pilots. Some thoughts:
Being involved with ab-initio ATC training I can say that with our students, on top of their ATC studies much of the course involves learning about the pilot side of the job. This includes a fairly good theoretical knowledge of Engines and Airframes, Aerodynamics, Performance, Navigation and a requirement to know the performance of all the common aircraft with which they will deal.
On top of this they will do 20 hours of flight training including going solo, and be required to write reports on a number of famil. flights with the local airline. They will also receive a number of hours of “Customer Relations” which will be given by airline pilots and when possible the operation personnel.
During the more advanced training which includes emergencies, the instructors always get a visiting airline pilot to monitor and help with feed back.
Now, in spite of this we “old timers” often complain that our students have a lack of general understanding but I do think we make a good effort.
I am not sure how much official ATC training or knowledge the average pilot has but I think that those who do know what goes on were either controllers or they showed some interest. Locally we have a team whose task it is to liaise with the crews of local airlines and resolve problems that both sides have. I guess this helps mainly for home base.
Quite a few of our part time “blip drivers” (simulator pilots) are real pilots, including airline pilots. They get a close up view of ATC training and nearly all of them have said they had no idea of what it was like and it has changed they way they view ATC.
There have been a number of recent threads that very much seems to indicate that there is a great lack of understanding between the work and requirements of controllers and that of pilots. Some thoughts:
Being involved with ab-initio ATC training I can say that with our students, on top of their ATC studies much of the course involves learning about the pilot side of the job. This includes a fairly good theoretical knowledge of Engines and Airframes, Aerodynamics, Performance, Navigation and a requirement to know the performance of all the common aircraft with which they will deal.
On top of this they will do 20 hours of flight training including going solo, and be required to write reports on a number of famil. flights with the local airline. They will also receive a number of hours of “Customer Relations” which will be given by airline pilots and when possible the operation personnel.
During the more advanced training which includes emergencies, the instructors always get a visiting airline pilot to monitor and help with feed back.
Now, in spite of this we “old timers” often complain that our students have a lack of general understanding but I do think we make a good effort.
I am not sure how much official ATC training or knowledge the average pilot has but I think that those who do know what goes on were either controllers or they showed some interest. Locally we have a team whose task it is to liaise with the crews of local airlines and resolve problems that both sides have. I guess this helps mainly for home base.
Quite a few of our part time “blip drivers” (simulator pilots) are real pilots, including airline pilots. They get a close up view of ATC training and nearly all of them have said they had no idea of what it was like and it has changed they way they view ATC.
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I think there should be a requirement for pilots to spend some real time monitoring a position in the TRACON and Tower, maybe part of the commercial pilot certification process.
As far as your ATC students learning to fly, I feel the 20 hours would be better spent on the jump seat monitoring a professional crew operate.
As far as your ATC students learning to fly, I feel the 20 hours would be better spent on the jump seat monitoring a professional crew operate.
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I don't thinnk that its as case of Us v Them and nor should it ever be but I thoroughly concur with Dreamland.
In the UK, its occassionally patently obvious that, when dealing with area control, there are a small number of ATCOs who wouldn't know the arse end of an aeroplane from the front end of a bus.
The personnel concerned are nearly always people who have just come out of the college and assume that because they give a specific clearance the aircraft will always be able to comply with it.
We are fortunate that at our unit we have a good enough relationship with all the operators to allow new ATCOs fam flights to give them more than a working knowledge of what goes on "on the other side". Equally we also have a regular programme which allows pilots of all levels to come and spend time with us.
There are advantages for a trainee ATCO gaining hours towards a PPL, but I strongly believe that this time would be better resourced and better perspective gained if it were initially in the back of a PA28 during someone else's PPL training moving on to the flight deck of an airliner going long haul.
In the UK, its occassionally patently obvious that, when dealing with area control, there are a small number of ATCOs who wouldn't know the arse end of an aeroplane from the front end of a bus.
The personnel concerned are nearly always people who have just come out of the college and assume that because they give a specific clearance the aircraft will always be able to comply with it.
We are fortunate that at our unit we have a good enough relationship with all the operators to allow new ATCOs fam flights to give them more than a working knowledge of what goes on "on the other side". Equally we also have a regular programme which allows pilots of all levels to come and spend time with us.
There are advantages for a trainee ATCO gaining hours towards a PPL, but I strongly believe that this time would be better resourced and better perspective gained if it were initially in the back of a PA28 during someone else's PPL training moving on to the flight deck of an airliner going long haul.
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I've said before that I prefer new recruits to have a genuine and long-standing interest in aviation, and I've been disagreed with by some! In general, I'd say most of those who aren't aviation enthusiasts when they join ATC do at least gain an interest as they do the job, but there are always those who say there's no need for enthusiasm, and that they can do the job just as well as the "spotters". If I may generalise, I'd guess the latter opinion is more prevalent in area than in approach or tower.
I believe it's a short-sighted move to do away with flight training for ATC recruits. It really is beneficial to know what goes on in the cockpit, and spending time in a jet sim is arguably even better training than flying a PA-28 for 15 or 20 hours. Better still is to have the flying experience AND the sim experience.
Sadly, visits from pilots to ATC were quite rare when I was in the UK, and are almost unheard of here in the sandpit. Admittedly, airside security and tight duty schedules make it difficult for pilots to visit us here.
I believe it's a short-sighted move to do away with flight training for ATC recruits. It really is beneficial to know what goes on in the cockpit, and spending time in a jet sim is arguably even better training than flying a PA-28 for 15 or 20 hours. Better still is to have the flying experience AND the sim experience.
Sadly, visits from pilots to ATC were quite rare when I was in the UK, and are almost unheard of here in the sandpit. Admittedly, airside security and tight duty schedules make it difficult for pilots to visit us here.
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I cannot see how spending a lot of money on PPL and jollies in a Cherokee or Seneca helps.
I found time in the jumpseat of 727/737/767's listening and observing coupled with good classroom instruction on aircraft performance infintely more beneficial.
The reality is as an ATC my job is to keep the targets 5 miles 1000ft or 10 miles in trail in a safe orderly and expeditious manner. That doesn't always fit in with the demands of piloting a jet but as they say you can only please some of the people half of the time.
Personally I like hanging out with pilots, they drink nearly as much as I do and you can usually pick up birds by manner of association
I found time in the jumpseat of 727/737/767's listening and observing coupled with good classroom instruction on aircraft performance infintely more beneficial.
The reality is as an ATC my job is to keep the targets 5 miles 1000ft or 10 miles in trail in a safe orderly and expeditious manner. That doesn't always fit in with the demands of piloting a jet but as they say you can only please some of the people half of the time.
Personally I like hanging out with pilots, they drink nearly as much as I do and you can usually pick up birds by manner of association
The personnel concerned are nearly always people who have just come out of the college and assume that because they give a specific clearance the aircraft will always be able to comply with it.
"The problem with pilots is that they think that their aircraft is the only one in the sky.
The problem with controllers is that they believe that the mid-air collision is the only hazard faced by aircraft."
A little more understanding of the big picture on both sides would be helpful.
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Controllers
Pilots
All
We are all part of the same big machine, but this is a good post, often we are not
- Preceding post is correct, pilots are only interested in their own flight however that is human nature, get used to it!
- PPL training is a waste unless you are in the tower at a predominately GA airport, then you also need to hang out at the clubs/schools and find out the problems at your airport.
- Jump seat or sim experience is generally good but much better if part of ongoing training and focussed on your sector/airport.
Pilots
- Try not to fixate on your own flight, it's a big world out there!
- Please don't blame ATC if your behind schedule, we are all part of your CRM (or should be)
- The ATC's have some shockingly disorganised airports to run. If every airline company owned it's own airport and only ran the number of flights that could fit at the platforms (runways) then there would not be any delays.
- When you visit an ATC facility ask questions! Why did such and such happen, how do you cope with....and so on, the person accompanying you should be able to answer. Try also to have a formal sit down session afterwards with questions and answers, a cup of tea and chat about the football is OK but it doesn't go far enough.
- Try to get your airline to actively engage with ATC at your primary hubs, random visits are not enough, a regular programme is required.
All
- We individually go through training within our own areas but how about some combined training, even if it is just a table top.
- Pilots - you have an engine/hydraulic failure/fire sick passenger/unlawful interference.
- Controllers - What can you do to help, what do the pilots want/what do the pilots not want. Do they need a fly by to look at the gear/ if so can you get a airline engineer to the tower or onto a fire truck?
We are all part of the same big machine, but this is a good post, often we are not
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I took a couple of real gentlemen from Shanwick on a jolly to Washington a few years back, just as RVSM was coming in. My then airline (red, white and a wooly pully) gave them the treatment their position deserved and we all came away having learned something about each others problems with implementing RVSM. These rides are invaluable as are visits to radar/towers etc. The airlines however, see it as dead time but are happy so long as you do it in your own time. But when you have a boss with a qualification in organisational science who couldn't organise the proverbial but thinks he knows better than those who do, then sometimes you just have to go and do it yourself and spread the word.
Keep the communication up and the conflicts down.
On another note. The current spat in Spain and France has a number of pilots seemingly taking it personally. We now have FOs in the UK's orangest fleet flying on subsistence money (just) and there is a lot of concern about them turning up for work stressed about money/job/food etc and not concentrating on the job. Now if controllers in Spain etc are getting stressed about their conditions, be it money/fatigue/conditions then I don't want them not concentrating on my little blip at the wrong time. As an industry we need to resist degradations to conditions across the board because they are harmful on so many levels.
Looking forward to meeting more of you guys out there.
Keep the communication up and the conflicts down.
On another note. The current spat in Spain and France has a number of pilots seemingly taking it personally. We now have FOs in the UK's orangest fleet flying on subsistence money (just) and there is a lot of concern about them turning up for work stressed about money/job/food etc and not concentrating on the job. Now if controllers in Spain etc are getting stressed about their conditions, be it money/fatigue/conditions then I don't want them not concentrating on my little blip at the wrong time. As an industry we need to resist degradations to conditions across the board because they are harmful on so many levels.
Looking forward to meeting more of you guys out there.
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In my opinion you can send ATCOs or pilots anywhere (center, twr, fam flight, etc.), it doesn't worth too much if the person is actually not interested in it and not motivated to know a bit more.
I guess we've all seen it way too many times, that there're a lot of ppl only interested in getting the paycheck in the end of the month and not really in the rest. They do their job, but noone should bother them with things like why is this and this happening if I do that?
Having said that, I absolutely agree that there should be better communication between the two sides (and also between ATC units) and we should organize some training days together for the benefit of all involved. Every single time I go to another center, to a cockpit flight I learn something new. And in the best case the other side learns something new as well, since it's not only one-way talking, but a discussion.
When I talk to pilots they say during their emergency simultations everything seems so real except ATC. How about our emergency sims? Everything is so real except the pilots part? Sim pilots are sometimes very good and put an huge effort into making it as real as they can, but they can never reproduce the reaction of an actual crew. Why don't we use our "refresher training" days to get together and do these simulations together?
It wouldn't change the world for sure, but I'm positive it would help at least a little bit...
I guess we've all seen it way too many times, that there're a lot of ppl only interested in getting the paycheck in the end of the month and not really in the rest. They do their job, but noone should bother them with things like why is this and this happening if I do that?
Having said that, I absolutely agree that there should be better communication between the two sides (and also between ATC units) and we should organize some training days together for the benefit of all involved. Every single time I go to another center, to a cockpit flight I learn something new. And in the best case the other side learns something new as well, since it's not only one-way talking, but a discussion.
When I talk to pilots they say during their emergency simultations everything seems so real except ATC. How about our emergency sims? Everything is so real except the pilots part? Sim pilots are sometimes very good and put an huge effort into making it as real as they can, but they can never reproduce the reaction of an actual crew. Why don't we use our "refresher training" days to get together and do these simulations together?
It wouldn't change the world for sure, but I'm positive it would help at least a little bit...
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us v them
Regarding the Spanish/French situations, they aren't really us v them as in ATCO v Pilot but more ATCO v Management. More and more of these "problems" are occurring and they all seem to come from a background of Managerial decisions. I don't think either side should take it personally, you are just being used as hopefully you will complain and every management certainly doesn't want complaints from its customers. Unfortunately in the world we now reside in its just going to happen more and more often......
Regarding the Spanish/French situations, they aren't really us v them as in ATCO v Pilot but more ATCO v Management. More and more of these "problems" are occurring and they all seem to come from a background of Managerial decisions. I don't think either side should take it personally, you are just being used as hopefully you will complain and every management certainly doesn't want complaints from its customers. Unfortunately in the world we now reside in its just going to happen more and more often......
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About combined ATCO/pilot training, as far as i know Lufthansa and DFS couple a few flight simulators with the ATC simulator in Langen and do combined exercises where pilots do normal LOFT scenarios while being connected with training ATCOs who have to fit the real crews in the other simulated traffic.
