Does "Cleared for the XXX approach" clear me for a procedure turn?
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Does "Cleared for the XXX approach" clear me for a procedure turn?
Trying to draw on the wealth of expertise here. May have been doing something wrong for 16 years.
hypothetical scenario. One mile south of Mayport at 1500 ft. Cleared for the Copter TACAN RWY 05. LINK
LID:NRB - COPTER TACAN RWY 05 (0909)
Fly the 180 radial outbound. AT PAWNEE I turn to 150 to execute a teardrop procedure turn to get headed inbound on the 180 radial so I can commence the approach. Approach calls and says I did not ask for holding and what am I doing, I reply that was cleared for the approach and am manuvering in the depicted airspace to position myself to commence the approach. Approach's response is that I was not cleared for the procedure turn and should have requested a turn in holding.
Questions. When cleared for this approach, isn't the holding depicted an arrival holding pattern designed for me to manuever as required to intercept the IAF?
If they wanted me to just intercept the arc from the north shouldn't the IAF be on the arc or there be an additional IAF inside the ARC?
Have I been wrong for not asking for a procedure turn when cleared for the approach?
If I asked for a turn in holding wouldn't i have to do a teardrop entry and then do a turn in holding to actually meet the requirement?
Thanks in advance for your expertise.
OB
hypothetical scenario. One mile south of Mayport at 1500 ft. Cleared for the Copter TACAN RWY 05. LINK
LID:NRB - COPTER TACAN RWY 05 (0909)
Fly the 180 radial outbound. AT PAWNEE I turn to 150 to execute a teardrop procedure turn to get headed inbound on the 180 radial so I can commence the approach. Approach calls and says I did not ask for holding and what am I doing, I reply that was cleared for the approach and am manuvering in the depicted airspace to position myself to commence the approach. Approach's response is that I was not cleared for the procedure turn and should have requested a turn in holding.
Questions. When cleared for this approach, isn't the holding depicted an arrival holding pattern designed for me to manuever as required to intercept the IAF?
If they wanted me to just intercept the arc from the north shouldn't the IAF be on the arc or there be an additional IAF inside the ARC?
Have I been wrong for not asking for a procedure turn when cleared for the approach?
If I asked for a turn in holding wouldn't i have to do a teardrop entry and then do a turn in holding to actually meet the requirement?
Thanks in advance for your expertise.
OB
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Good Morning,
I don't have your years of experience, however I've taken a look at this, and can't see that you are doing wrong. The approach begins at the IAF, which in this case is PAWNE at 5 DME, and from a track of 360 deg per the vertical profile part of the chart. You could not intercept the arc from the north as you would be in contravention of the vertical profile on the chart. You could not commence descent until you were within 5 deg of the arc at MEBLE.
I would state to ATC my intention to commence a procedure turn at PAWNE, but just for belt and braces, I cannot see how else you are supposed to arrange the aircraft onto the approach without doing the turn at PAWNE, unless they want to or state they will offer radar vectors onto the approach.
high-flyer
I don't have your years of experience, however I've taken a look at this, and can't see that you are doing wrong. The approach begins at the IAF, which in this case is PAWNE at 5 DME, and from a track of 360 deg per the vertical profile part of the chart. You could not intercept the arc from the north as you would be in contravention of the vertical profile on the chart. You could not commence descent until you were within 5 deg of the arc at MEBLE.
I would state to ATC my intention to commence a procedure turn at PAWNE, but just for belt and braces, I cannot see how else you are supposed to arrange the aircraft onto the approach without doing the turn at PAWNE, unless they want to or state they will offer radar vectors onto the approach.
high-flyer
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Talking strictly FAA.
The IAP you are talking about does not have a procedure turn. The IAF is reached via a holding pattern.
There are a few parts of the AIM that back-up what you did.
1. When cleared to route to the hold, subsequently being cleared for the approach does not alter that routing. AIM 5-4-6 (a)
2. Except when being radar vectored to the final approach course when cleared for the approach the entire approach shall be executed from the IAF. AIM 5-4-7 (e)
If the controller wanted you to establish directly onto the ARC (which would be a nice short-cut and is a safe option) then they should ahve said so.
Finally, on a small point - I can't see how there would be any difference in how you would enter the hold if simply holding or already cleared for the approach. You (should) by using the correct entry procedure be established inbound on the 180R prior to crossing pawne no matter if you are holding or starting the approach.
The IAP you are talking about does not have a procedure turn. The IAF is reached via a holding pattern.
There are a few parts of the AIM that back-up what you did.
1. When cleared to route to the hold, subsequently being cleared for the approach does not alter that routing. AIM 5-4-6 (a)
2. Except when being radar vectored to the final approach course when cleared for the approach the entire approach shall be executed from the IAF. AIM 5-4-7 (e)
If the controller wanted you to establish directly onto the ARC (which would be a nice short-cut and is a safe option) then they should ahve said so.
Finally, on a small point - I can't see how there would be any difference in how you would enter the hold if simply holding or already cleared for the approach. You (should) by using the correct entry procedure be established inbound on the 180R prior to crossing pawne no matter if you are holding or starting the approach.
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answer to your question
Hi there,
The approach controller most likely questioned your action to to the fact that Mayport is in close proximity with Craig airport and the military controller u were talking to was following the direction of the Faa approach which airspace u are in. But overall not alot a room with CRG/NRB action to play with here. Trust me it does not look pretty sometimes on radar.
However to answer your question, on a controller point of view there is no PT at pawnee on the approach plate therefore the controller does not expect you to enter any kinda of maneuver but enter a gentle right turn of the 180 radial to join the 5 dme arc n arc north.
The holding at pawnee on the approach plate is depicted for in the event of a missed approach with at the worse lost comm.
if you want a tear drop u need to ask for it.
A good hint for this area is if you are in doubt or you find yourself in a situation like this one.......just ask.
Mayport is a very difficult area for IFR pratice app. especially to RWY 5.......its a headache for Jax app.......trust me....
Got more questions let me know........if i can help
The approach controller most likely questioned your action to to the fact that Mayport is in close proximity with Craig airport and the military controller u were talking to was following the direction of the Faa approach which airspace u are in. But overall not alot a room with CRG/NRB action to play with here. Trust me it does not look pretty sometimes on radar.
However to answer your question, on a controller point of view there is no PT at pawnee on the approach plate therefore the controller does not expect you to enter any kinda of maneuver but enter a gentle right turn of the 180 radial to join the 5 dme arc n arc north.
The holding at pawnee on the approach plate is depicted for in the event of a missed approach with at the worse lost comm.
if you want a tear drop u need to ask for it.
A good hint for this area is if you are in doubt or you find yourself in a situation like this one.......just ask.
Mayport is a very difficult area for IFR pratice app. especially to RWY 5.......its a headache for Jax app.......trust me....
Got more questions let me know........if i can help
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What the ATCO was expecting and what the pilot was supposed to do are two completely different things in this case.
According to ICAO (don't know FAA) you can't go directly to the outbound track because the angle of intercept to the IAF was more than 60°. A reversal procedure was necessary and a racetrack or holding pattern will do just fine...
According to ICAO (don't know FAA) you can't go directly to the outbound track because the angle of intercept to the IAF was more than 60°. A reversal procedure was necessary and a racetrack or holding pattern will do just fine...
However to answer your question, on a controller point of view there is no PT at pawnee on the approach plate therefore the controller does not expect you to enter any kinda of maneuver but enter a gentle right turn of the 180 radial to join the 5 dme arc n arc north.
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However to answer your question, on a controller point of view there is no PT at pawnee on the approach plate
I can't see that on the chart I am looking at - Mayport Copter Tacan Rwy 5 (6 May - 3 June 2010)
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Hi!
The Hold at Pawnee is part of the MAP, not the approach, so you need to ask if you need holding at Pawnee... The BOLD lines on the Approach plate are the approach procedure and the light colored lines are part of the MAP!
Hope this helps!
Cheers
The Hold at Pawnee is part of the MAP, not the approach, so you need to ask if you need holding at Pawnee... The BOLD lines on the Approach plate are the approach procedure and the light colored lines are part of the MAP!
Hope this helps!
Cheers
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Missed approach procedures are depicted as dotted lines. Bold lines just depict the track inside the IAF. A holding is not part of a missed app proc, it's a consequence. Just like an airways join or a second attempt to the approach. No one says the pilot has to hold, but the pilot has to reverse track in order to fly the published approach.
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TWR,
We'll agree to disagree I guess... if your read the approach plate the Missed Approach instructions are to climb to 500' and join the NDB Rad 180 and Hold. Not a suggestion... if given something else of course you would do that... The dotted lines are because you cannot scale something that has no definition, like when you get to 500' and where you intercept the outbound track at. Those dotted lines are just for reference not a procedure!
We'll agree to disagree I guess... if your read the approach plate the Missed Approach instructions are to climb to 500' and join the NDB Rad 180 and Hold. Not a suggestion... if given something else of course you would do that... The dotted lines are because you cannot scale something that has no definition, like when you get to 500' and where you intercept the outbound track at. Those dotted lines are just for reference not a procedure!
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My 2 cents... The approach begins at IAF. After IAF you should follow the arc and so on. There is NOTHING on this chart that authorizes you to maneuvre in any other way than to proceed direct to IAF via a right turn to the west to intercept the arc. There is no racetrack procedure published. In this case of course a base turn is a maneuver to do this, but in my opinion you should request it from the ATC since there is no such maneuver published in the approach procedure.
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I would say OB did the right thing. As previously stated the approach commences at PAWNE on a 360 degree heading. If you were cleared via the MAYPORT 180 degree radial to PAWNE , cleared COPTER TACAN RWY 05 you need to perform a course reversal at PAWNE. You could do it either right or left unless the direction was specified in the clearance. If the controller expected you to make a right turn onto the 4.5 DME arc he/she should have cleared you via the MAYPORT 180 degree radial, intercept the MAYPORT 4.5 DME arc, cleared via the remainder of the COPTER TACAN RWY 05.Or provided radar vectors. In most places the later clearance would be not authorized due to intercept angles and a host of other rules. But I would guess if this approach is used for a high volume of training local pilots would fly the missed on the 180 degree radial and ask to join the DME arc to speed things up and get more approaches in and after a while it seem to be the norm.
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I agree totally with slatch. The OB did the right thing. A reversal turn has to be carried out at PAWNE and the way to do that would by the RT, as the OB did. If the controller wanted OB to directly join the arc at 4.5NM then he should have issued just such a clearance.
