Beijing multiple Runway and STAR changes
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Beijing multiple Runway and STAR changes
Concern for the safety of my aircraft, those around me and the passengers that pay a lot of money to my company for a safe passage to their destinations.
I should start by saying I never have any problems with departures from Beijing International Airport. Departures always seem to happen according to expectation.
My concern is the repeated and continuous arrival STAR and runway changes. Even the other day I had a STAR issued that does not even come up as a possible selection in the database for the runway that was intended for our landing. This complicated the programming of my aircraft's navigation system.
Let me just tell you what happens every time your controllers change our clearance:
1. One pilot can no longer monitor the aircraft's profile or flight path.
2. The FMS needs to be reprogrammed this takes time as there is a lot of changes to be made, Routing, navaids,performance, MDA, weather all needs to be modified every time you change our arrival runway and STAR.
3. As already stated 1 pilot enters the other then has to verify that all data is correct for the latest change.
4. Mean while my aircraft is traveling forward at a speed up to 500 kts ground speed and Rates of descent in excess of 2000 FPM.
5. Then we have to re brief the other Pilot on our expected actions, missed approach etc.
6. Now as a crew we have lost somewhere between 2 and 5 minutes depending on the sequence of events. During this time ATC interrupt with new altitudes headings and other instructions.
Can you see the possibility for errors?
7. If we have an expectation of STAR and Runway combination we can enter this data into the aircraft's navigation system during cruise at a leisurely pace instead of a rushed manner during a high workload situation during descent. Before commencing descent the crews best guess of STAR arrival and Runway is entered.
8. I do understand that weather conditions change which will change best laid plans, however I know from experience this is not the cause of Beijing scrambled descent clearances and arrival
We always try our best to accommodate but I think you need to be aware of the problems you are causing and the possible safety implications.
What I as a professional Pilot would like to see change with arrivals into Beijing immediately to avoid any major incidents is to have standard arrival routing's. Standard runways from these arrivals. For example if you are coming in from the south you enter Beijing controlled airspace via WXI this has an arrival runway of either 01 or 19. If you are coming in from the East you enter the control zone via a point to join the pattern for either 01 or 19.
Now if you are coming from the north or west expected arrival runway should be 36L or 18R, this would leave 36R 18L for departures and any over flow. I personally think this would enhance safety and reduce the air traffic controllers work load. Sure if it is a quiet time Radar vectors to shorten the approach is always good for us. However multiple Runway and STARs are not.
To summaries in order to improve safety for your customers, that is the airlines that operate into Beijing. Have clearly defined standard arrivals for North South East and West, have standard runway combinations for each of these directions, this seems to be the case for departures.
Every other airport I have been to around the world has standard arrivals and runways depending on your arrival direction, most airports in china seem to have this as well except Beijing. I am sure if you implement these strategies I have suggested there will be fewer incidents of Pilots carrying out the wrong procedure and I can assure you, your customers Airlines and Pilots would be very thankful as well.
Please bring back the Digital ATIS the voice ATIS is just to hard to listen to and we can't monitor the ATIS during the flight to pick up weather trends.
This has been emailed to CAAC. I wait for a reply.
:ugh :
I should start by saying I never have any problems with departures from Beijing International Airport. Departures always seem to happen according to expectation.
My concern is the repeated and continuous arrival STAR and runway changes. Even the other day I had a STAR issued that does not even come up as a possible selection in the database for the runway that was intended for our landing. This complicated the programming of my aircraft's navigation system.
Let me just tell you what happens every time your controllers change our clearance:
1. One pilot can no longer monitor the aircraft's profile or flight path.
2. The FMS needs to be reprogrammed this takes time as there is a lot of changes to be made, Routing, navaids,performance, MDA, weather all needs to be modified every time you change our arrival runway and STAR.
3. As already stated 1 pilot enters the other then has to verify that all data is correct for the latest change.
4. Mean while my aircraft is traveling forward at a speed up to 500 kts ground speed and Rates of descent in excess of 2000 FPM.
5. Then we have to re brief the other Pilot on our expected actions, missed approach etc.
6. Now as a crew we have lost somewhere between 2 and 5 minutes depending on the sequence of events. During this time ATC interrupt with new altitudes headings and other instructions.
Can you see the possibility for errors?
7. If we have an expectation of STAR and Runway combination we can enter this data into the aircraft's navigation system during cruise at a leisurely pace instead of a rushed manner during a high workload situation during descent. Before commencing descent the crews best guess of STAR arrival and Runway is entered.
8. I do understand that weather conditions change which will change best laid plans, however I know from experience this is not the cause of Beijing scrambled descent clearances and arrival
We always try our best to accommodate but I think you need to be aware of the problems you are causing and the possible safety implications.
What I as a professional Pilot would like to see change with arrivals into Beijing immediately to avoid any major incidents is to have standard arrival routing's. Standard runways from these arrivals. For example if you are coming in from the south you enter Beijing controlled airspace via WXI this has an arrival runway of either 01 or 19. If you are coming in from the East you enter the control zone via a point to join the pattern for either 01 or 19.
Now if you are coming from the north or west expected arrival runway should be 36L or 18R, this would leave 36R 18L for departures and any over flow. I personally think this would enhance safety and reduce the air traffic controllers work load. Sure if it is a quiet time Radar vectors to shorten the approach is always good for us. However multiple Runway and STARs are not.
To summaries in order to improve safety for your customers, that is the airlines that operate into Beijing. Have clearly defined standard arrivals for North South East and West, have standard runway combinations for each of these directions, this seems to be the case for departures.
Every other airport I have been to around the world has standard arrivals and runways depending on your arrival direction, most airports in china seem to have this as well except Beijing. I am sure if you implement these strategies I have suggested there will be fewer incidents of Pilots carrying out the wrong procedure and I can assure you, your customers Airlines and Pilots would be very thankful as well.
Please bring back the Digital ATIS the voice ATIS is just to hard to listen to and we can't monitor the ATIS during the flight to pick up weather trends.
This has been emailed to CAAC. I wait for a reply.
:ugh :
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Interesting post DJ744.
I can't shed much light on their operation specifically, but sounds like they are having trouble balancing their runways.
While their default runway/STAR allocations may well follow your suggestion, they probably find themselves oversubsribed on one runway with arrivals from one direction only, while the other runway is undersubscribed.
I guess they could just keep it simple and let the delays build but are obviously trying to be dynamic with their options.
Am I correct in saying you can load an alternate and switch to that fairly quickly, but not to a third option or back to the first so easily?
I can't shed much light on their operation specifically, but sounds like they are having trouble balancing their runways.
While their default runway/STAR allocations may well follow your suggestion, they probably find themselves oversubsribed on one runway with arrivals from one direction only, while the other runway is undersubscribed.
I guess they could just keep it simple and let the delays build but are obviously trying to be dynamic with their options.
Am I correct in saying you can load an alternate and switch to that fairly quickly, but not to a third option or back to the first so easily?
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I've been into Beijing 1 or 2 times a week for the past six months. The first few times were a bit hectic, but we've just learnt to breif approaches to the two most probable runways and 2 stars. They can all be checked in the FMS well before arrival, so when we get clearance we can make any alterations quickly.
Our worst arrival had 2 cleared STARs and 4 runways. However, generally the worst we get usually is a runway change.
Can you guys get a METAR on ACARS?
@Bekolblockage
I think I speak to you quite a bit (G-FA).
Switching between STARs and approaches isn't as easy as it may sound. Re-tuning the ILS is easy as the alternative fequency can be in standby, but (at least in my plane) there's no standby in the FMS. That needs to be re-programmed. A change of STAR and approach will take at least 30 seconds to 1 minute (need to tell the system what the new STAR & app are and maybe re-programme the weather as well as re-tuning radios, setting inbound track and DA). Double this if it's going to be checked. Add another 30 secs if we get "other" instructions (HDG / Alt) during the re-programming. This is all fine and dandy if it comes one at a time, but a change of runway AND a change of heading / alt in the same radio transmission can lead to mistakes.
P.S. request 07R for BAC!
Our worst arrival had 2 cleared STARs and 4 runways. However, generally the worst we get usually is a runway change.
Can you guys get a METAR on ACARS?
@Bekolblockage
I think I speak to you quite a bit (G-FA).
Switching between STARs and approaches isn't as easy as it may sound. Re-tuning the ILS is easy as the alternative fequency can be in standby, but (at least in my plane) there's no standby in the FMS. That needs to be re-programmed. A change of STAR and approach will take at least 30 seconds to 1 minute (need to tell the system what the new STAR & app are and maybe re-programme the weather as well as re-tuning radios, setting inbound track and DA). Double this if it's going to be checked. Add another 30 secs if we get "other" instructions (HDG / Alt) during the re-programming. This is all fine and dandy if it comes one at a time, but a change of runway AND a change of heading / alt in the same radio transmission can lead to mistakes.
P.S. request 07R for BAC!
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Hi Guys,
Suggest you e-mail caucatc and voice your concerns direct to him. Address on his profile.
He is a controller at Beijing who frequents these boards sometimes. Good luck!
Suggest you e-mail caucatc and voice your concerns direct to him. Address on his profile.
He is a controller at Beijing who frequents these boards sometimes. Good luck!
Last edited by ATCO Two; 14th May 2010 at 22:15. Reason: E-mail address not allowed
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Yes，I am here ,thank you ATCO Two.
I will read that and answer your questions ,but what I am saying does not stand for CAAC ,is only for my personal opinion.
Currently runway is a big problem ,crew always want to reduce taxiing time ,like aircrafts whose parking bay is at T3,but they come into approach space from KM or BOBAK ,according to the AIP ,they should land on runway 36L/18R ,but that gonna take 20minutes to taxi.
Normally pilot will reqeust runway 36R or 01 when they call us at the first time ,but one thing you should know is that we need time to think about that also ,like other aircrafts come from east but parking bay are in T1 and T2 would like use 36R or 36L ,we need to make a lot of converging traffic and keep them safe all the time ,that is not a easy thing !!!
So normally we will find a space and try our best to reduce your taxiing time ,it is true that sometimes we notice you change of runway a little late ,but if you think it is too late to change ,ok ,tell us .
If you can use 36R is hard to tell at the initial contact ,because that is use for departure mainly ,we need to check if there were heavy departure traffic on that runway .
If you have any further questions ,you can send me an email :[email protected] but all of my answers are only my personal opinions ,and also you can check the posts I have send here before ,I have explained something which you may interested to a Dutch pilot .
I will read that and answer your questions ,but what I am saying does not stand for CAAC ,is only for my personal opinion.
Currently runway is a big problem ,crew always want to reduce taxiing time ,like aircrafts whose parking bay is at T3,but they come into approach space from KM or BOBAK ,according to the AIP ,they should land on runway 36L/18R ,but that gonna take 20minutes to taxi.
Normally pilot will reqeust runway 36R or 01 when they call us at the first time ,but one thing you should know is that we need time to think about that also ,like other aircrafts come from east but parking bay are in T1 and T2 would like use 36R or 36L ,we need to make a lot of converging traffic and keep them safe all the time ,that is not a easy thing !!!
So normally we will find a space and try our best to reduce your taxiing time ,it is true that sometimes we notice you change of runway a little late ,but if you think it is too late to change ,ok ,tell us .
If you can use 36R is hard to tell at the initial contact ,because that is use for departure mainly ,we need to check if there were heavy departure traffic on that runway .
If you have any further questions ,you can send me an email :[email protected] but all of my answers are only my personal opinions ,and also you can check the posts I have send here before ,I have explained something which you may interested to a Dutch pilot .
Last edited by caucatc; 15th May 2010 at 02:09.
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Hi welliewanger
I guess you may work for British Airways ,right?
You inbound KM and parking bay is in T3 ,each time pilots always request 36R or 01 for landing to reduce taxiing time ,you want it and we have to change that for you ,but please remember that we need time to think ,please give us time.
I guess you may work for British Airways ,right?
You inbound KM and parking bay is in T3 ,each time pilots always request 36R or 01 for landing to reduce taxiing time ,you want it and we have to change that for you ,but please remember that we need time to think ,please give us time.
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Hi Welliewanger,
We do the same, always brief what we think we will get, and plan 2 as well, but frequently the STARs and runways are changed, I have even had a change to the change during the one transmission. And again just recently we were issued one star and r/w immediately changed frequency and were issued another combination.
Hi caucatc,
Thanks for the info. Yes I understand that everyone wants to reduce taxi time as I am no different. Surely some better system can be put in place to accommodate this, eg BA parks at T3 and will always expect to land on this rwy and this star as primary choice. Same would obviously apply to all other airlines. And if there is an overflow for a particular runway during a busy period the overflow star and rwy combination could be used. If we could expect this, the FM can be programmed with the normal arrival and the overflow arrival, they both could be briefed and takes a very short time to change between the two arrivals. Thus reducing the extra workload that seems to happen in my experience anyway.
I just don't like the uncertain nature that is Beijing arrival. I know my company has had many meetings with management in Beijing and there has been some progress. I personally don't think it has to be that hard.
Now I don't know if this is true but I heard along time ago CX stopped sending Pilots under command training to Beijing and again I am only guessing this was to reduce failures during their training.
Will send you some mail a bit latter
Cheers.
davey
We do the same, always brief what we think we will get, and plan 2 as well, but frequently the STARs and runways are changed, I have even had a change to the change during the one transmission. And again just recently we were issued one star and r/w immediately changed frequency and were issued another combination.
Hi caucatc,
Thanks for the info. Yes I understand that everyone wants to reduce taxi time as I am no different. Surely some better system can be put in place to accommodate this, eg BA parks at T3 and will always expect to land on this rwy and this star as primary choice. Same would obviously apply to all other airlines. And if there is an overflow for a particular runway during a busy period the overflow star and rwy combination could be used. If we could expect this, the FM can be programmed with the normal arrival and the overflow arrival, they both could be briefed and takes a very short time to change between the two arrivals. Thus reducing the extra workload that seems to happen in my experience anyway.
I just don't like the uncertain nature that is Beijing arrival. I know my company has had many meetings with management in Beijing and there has been some progress. I personally don't think it has to be that hard.
Now I don't know if this is true but I heard along time ago CX stopped sending Pilots under command training to Beijing and again I am only guessing this was to reduce failures during their training.
Will send you some mail a bit latter
Cheers.
davey
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Hi Caucatc
Nope, not BA. Private. My comment was to Bekolblockage asking for 07R for the Business Aviation Centre at Hong Kong. I'm not sure that RADAR realize how much taxi time (and a runway crossing) it saves us (07L is preferred by the airport). Usually, if we ask, they're very helpful and we get 07R
Beijing usually give us 36L/R or 18L/R which is ok for stand 629.
While I've got a nice friendly, helpful Beijing ATCO here, can I ask why you guys always tell us to descend so early? We tend to trundle around at about FL450. As a rule of thumb, if you take the number of thousands of feet (45) and multiply by 3.1 you get the number of nautical miles we need for an "ideal" descent. so 45 (thousand feet) * 3.1 = 139.5. Usually in China they start us descending well before 200 miles. Why so soon?
Cheers
Nope, not BA. Private. My comment was to Bekolblockage asking for 07R for the Business Aviation Centre at Hong Kong. I'm not sure that RADAR realize how much taxi time (and a runway crossing) it saves us (07L is preferred by the airport). Usually, if we ask, they're very helpful and we get 07R
Beijing usually give us 36L/R or 18L/R which is ok for stand 629.
While I've got a nice friendly, helpful Beijing ATCO here, can I ask why you guys always tell us to descend so early? We tend to trundle around at about FL450. As a rule of thumb, if you take the number of thousands of feet (45) and multiply by 3.1 you get the number of nautical miles we need for an "ideal" descent. so 45 (thousand feet) * 3.1 = 139.5. Usually in China they start us descending well before 200 miles. Why so soon?
Cheers
Last edited by welliewanger; 17th May 2010 at 10:54.
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welliewanger
I suggest you check the post I replied to a Dutch pilot before , nearly all the foreign pilots have this question.
daveyjones744
I do not know which airline do you work for,but I think your aircraft parking bay is in T3 and you inbound KM or BOBAK,let's say you inbound KM.
You said we should have one plan for normal flow and another one for back up when overflow.Currently we have two mainly used STAR for KM ,that is KM01A and KM03A ,but I think you can see KM03A has such a big potential conflict with departure aircrafts so we prefer to use KM01A ,even if you use KM03A ,you will fly to east arrival ,of course you will use the runway you prefered to use to land ,but think about east arrival will be quite busy ,we have tried this way before.So normally we change the runway and made final decision in final area ,that need a lot of coordination with relavent sectors also ,they will check ground monitor radar see if there are a lot of traffic waiting for departure on 36R ,if there is ,we need to think about 01 for you ,it is not very easy,that is the main point you should understand.
Sometimes I have to say we are really nearly annoying by pilots who request runway especially we are very very busy ,we keep talking all the time and then pilot said:BeiJing ,XXX.After we said go ahead ,pilot replied we request runway 01 even if we have told them final sector will tell them for several times !!! I think if you fly here a lot of times ,then you will know how we work usually.
I suggest you check the post I replied to a Dutch pilot before , nearly all the foreign pilots have this question.
daveyjones744
I do not know which airline do you work for,but I think your aircraft parking bay is in T3 and you inbound KM or BOBAK,let's say you inbound KM.
You said we should have one plan for normal flow and another one for back up when overflow.Currently we have two mainly used STAR for KM ,that is KM01A and KM03A ,but I think you can see KM03A has such a big potential conflict with departure aircrafts so we prefer to use KM01A ,even if you use KM03A ,you will fly to east arrival ,of course you will use the runway you prefered to use to land ,but think about east arrival will be quite busy ,we have tried this way before.So normally we change the runway and made final decision in final area ,that need a lot of coordination with relavent sectors also ,they will check ground monitor radar see if there are a lot of traffic waiting for departure on 36R ,if there is ,we need to think about 01 for you ,it is not very easy,that is the main point you should understand.
Sometimes I have to say we are really nearly annoying by pilots who request runway especially we are very very busy ,we keep talking all the time and then pilot said:BeiJing ,XXX.After we said go ahead ,pilot replied we request runway 01 even if we have told them final sector will tell them for several times !!! I think if you fly here a lot of times ,then you will know how we work usually.
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welliewanger
I think I have a question for you ,do you fly GULf or any other business jet ? I am curious that what kind of people will travel with that plane ? Big boss ?Two years ago ,some business jet always made some incidents ,they did not call us after take off for 5 minutes ,or forgot to turn on the transponder ,we can not see its altitude.
I think I have a question for you ,do you fly GULf or any other business jet ? I am curious that what kind of people will travel with that plane ? Big boss ?Two years ago ,some business jet always made some incidents ,they did not call us after take off for 5 minutes ,or forgot to turn on the transponder ,we can not see its altitude.
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<<You inbound KM and parking bay is in T3 ,each time pilots always request 36R or 01 for landing to reduce taxiing time ,you want it and we have to change that for you>>
Why do you change runways whenever a pilot requests shorter taxy time?? At a busy international airport this must cause delays to other traffic?
Why do you change runways whenever a pilot requests shorter taxy time?? At a busy international airport this must cause delays to other traffic?
ing most of the people all of the time.
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@Caucatc I'm sure we have plenty to natter about. Glad that I've found someone "on the inside" I'll PM you.
@Heathrow Director I understand that ATC works hard to expedite traffic and by and large does a very good job and us pilots are unaware of the big picture. In the case of my aircraft (bizjet) since we're not the usual traffic, ATC frequently don't know where we're likely to park. Therefore we'll ask for a specific runway as a prompt to ATC. We'll usually wait for the initial clearance and if it's not ideal, just request the best runway. If it's unavailable, then fair enough. Some places (e.g. Hong Kong) the terminal is in between two runways. It makes a couple of minutes difference which runway the airlines land, so it doesn't matter which one they get. However, the GA terminal is South of the Southern runway, so we'll always request the southern runway to avoid a long taxi and a runway crossing, saving 5-10 minutes. If we can be slotted in, it saves us time and probably saves ATC time too. It just seems that they need prompting somtimes in stead of just putting us on the "usual" runway.
@Heathrow Director I understand that ATC works hard to expedite traffic and by and large does a very good job and us pilots are unaware of the big picture. In the case of my aircraft (bizjet) since we're not the usual traffic, ATC frequently don't know where we're likely to park. Therefore we'll ask for a specific runway as a prompt to ATC. We'll usually wait for the initial clearance and if it's not ideal, just request the best runway. If it's unavailable, then fair enough. Some places (e.g. Hong Kong) the terminal is in between two runways. It makes a couple of minutes difference which runway the airlines land, so it doesn't matter which one they get. However, the GA terminal is South of the Southern runway, so we'll always request the southern runway to avoid a long taxi and a runway crossing, saving 5-10 minutes. If we can be slotted in, it saves us time and probably saves ATC time too. It just seems that they need prompting somtimes in stead of just putting us on the "usual" runway.
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HEATHROW DIRECTOR
I want to know if your airport has that problem also ,because if an aircraft land on the west runway and their parking bay is in the east that normally takes them 20 minutes to taxi , they always complain and alway request request ........ does 20 minutes taxi a very long time ? How long does it take to taxi in your airport ?
welliewanger
Yes ,nice to know you also , because we wish to know some bizjet pilot and know more about their work ,welcome send me an email :[email protected]
Cheers
Jack
I want to know if your airport has that problem also ,because if an aircraft land on the west runway and their parking bay is in the east that normally takes them 20 minutes to taxi , they always complain and alway request request ........ does 20 minutes taxi a very long time ? How long does it take to taxi in your airport ?
welliewanger
Yes ,nice to know you also , because we wish to know some bizjet pilot and know more about their work ,welcome send me an email :[email protected]
Cheers
Jack
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Rencently I have got several emails from those pilots who had flied to BeiJing ,and I do got a lot of good suggestions and also after I made a explaination, some misunderstandings were eliminate.Still,welcome all the people who has suggestions or questions about us send a post or send me a email.
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caucatc,
assuming HD works at Heathrow...
I would say that there isn't so much of an issue at Heathrow because there is currently very little scope for arrivals on multiple runways. With the exception of one hour in the morning when both runways are used for arrivals, it is otherwise fixed by design (so no choice).
There is also the design of the runway to consider (not just it's location to the terminal) , e.g. at Heathrow the two runways are not identical, such as the location of the RETs, which makes one more suitable for arrivals than for departures.
assuming HD works at Heathrow...
I would say that there isn't so much of an issue at Heathrow because there is currently very little scope for arrivals on multiple runways. With the exception of one hour in the morning when both runways are used for arrivals, it is otherwise fixed by design (so no choice).
There is also the design of the runway to consider (not just it's location to the terminal) , e.g. at Heathrow the two runways are not identical, such as the location of the RETs, which makes one more suitable for arrivals than for departures.
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HD> Have a look at the thread under ATC Issues entitled "HDG of Avoid Traffic"
Seems like caucatc isn't all s/he claims to be. Hence his/her lack of understanding of even the basics of ATC.
but if you look thru the posters history, he is more likely a software developer writing code for a video game or an add-on for Flightsim (or some such thing).
