Relocation once Trained
Join Date: Jun 2008
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Covonia,
You will have it beaten in to you on the first day of college that you can be posted anywhere and you will sign to say this as well! It starts at stage one and is repeated at every stage as well. In all probability the numbers game means you will be placed on area rather than aerodrome (currently a ratio of 38 area to 12 aerodrome but i understand numbers on subsequent area courses may be in their high 40's), hence you will in all likelehood be going to swanick, with a possibility of prestwick!
Salary as a trainee equates to approx £950 take home (includes a living allowance)! It rises to £18kpa approx when you leave college but are an ojti. This however does not include a living allowance so you are just as screwed financially!
After saying all that i have not met an atco who is NOT happy in either area, although there is some very friendly rivalry!
You will have it beaten in to you on the first day of college that you can be posted anywhere and you will sign to say this as well! It starts at stage one and is repeated at every stage as well. In all probability the numbers game means you will be placed on area rather than aerodrome (currently a ratio of 38 area to 12 aerodrome but i understand numbers on subsequent area courses may be in their high 40's), hence you will in all likelehood be going to swanick, with a possibility of prestwick!
Salary as a trainee equates to approx £950 take home (includes a living allowance)! It rises to £18kpa approx when you leave college but are an ojti. This however does not include a living allowance so you are just as screwed financially!
After saying all that i have not met an atco who is NOT happy in either area, although there is some very friendly rivalry!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: England
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take home pay a month
1000 at course (living allowance included)
get a 1000 lump sump when complete course
1,200 - 1,250 at swanwick training
I am not sure past there but I think when you have been with the company 3 years and validated it shoots up.
1000 at course (living allowance included)
get a 1000 lump sump when complete course
1,200 - 1,250 at swanwick training
I am not sure past there but I think when you have been with the company 3 years and validated it shoots up.
Join Date: Dec 2002
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following on from sideshows salary list.
If you validate within 3 years (at swanwick/heathrow)you go onto first validation scale
takehome including shift is approx £2150
at 3 year....2800 year later 3100.
Hard work to get there but financially its a good salary.....and for most a great job
If you validate within 3 years (at swanwick/heathrow)you go onto first validation scale
takehome including shift is approx £2150
at 3 year....2800 year later 3100.
Hard work to get there but financially its a good salary.....and for most a great job
Join Date: Aug 2002
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I may not have a choice, but is it possible to once you have been validated and become an ATCO to then apply to a Non-Nats airport like Leeds, Liverpool, Blackpool etc
What time scale do you envision? I find this very demoralising for hard working NSL OJTI's . This sort of attitude BEFORE he(or she) has even gotten in to NATS really rips my knittin'. Time to bond the buggahs!!
Join Date: Oct 2008
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This sort of attitude BEFORE he(or she) has even gotten in to NATS really rips my knittin'. Time to bond the buggahs!!
Reality now is that all training is done at the speed of light, chances to get chopped at ANY stage are very real, and then be on a street, and the money is crap. And even if smart enough to validate in record time, then still on 15k less than a pre-2004 atco, which is ridiculous as it's your licence and liability on the line just as much as someone with 10 years more experience.
Bond the bugg*rs ??? Maybe the company should just be grateful that there is still someone applying !!!
StandupfortheUlstermen
Join Date: Dec 2001
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You'd struggle to find an ATCO3 at a band 2 unit pulling in over £4K/month take home. And that includes OJTI and LCE.
Training was always done at the speed of light and the possibility of being chopped was always very real (the company and I had a parting of the ways some years ago and I am an example of that, as were several of my friends).
I've been in the game 17 years this week and I earn as much as someone with 35 years experience. I don't see them complaining.
Look at it this way BigDaddy, if you're valid now, you're pretty much on a winner. If you're not, then I hope you don't find yourself in the position I did, because £0/month is a lot worse than £1250/month, believe me.
Bonding? Pah, too good fer 'em, birch 'em instead!
Training was always done at the speed of light and the possibility of being chopped was always very real (the company and I had a parting of the ways some years ago and I am an example of that, as were several of my friends).
I've been in the game 17 years this week and I earn as much as someone with 35 years experience. I don't see them complaining.
Look at it this way BigDaddy, if you're valid now, you're pretty much on a winner. If you're not, then I hope you don't find yourself in the position I did, because £0/month is a lot worse than £1250/month, believe me.
Bonding? Pah, too good fer 'em, birch 'em instead!
Join Date: Mar 2009
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2 years ago, NATS appeared in 'The Sunday Times Top 100 Companies to work for'.
Why is there a need to "bond the buggahs!!" ?
Less than 1 yr ago, pompey won the cup..how quickly times change.
Why is there a need to "bond the buggahs!!" ?
Less than 1 yr ago, pompey won the cup..how quickly times change.
Join Date: Oct 2008
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Standard Noise, I wasn't complaining. Just answered to someone who suggested they "bond the bugg*rs". I am happy with what Nats offer and after all I was free not to sign the contract if I didn't like it.
Times are changing, supply and demand and all that. If NATS feel they can offer a trainee a contract without bonding, then it's their gamble and if someone decides to take advantage of that, it's their problem.
If I decide to take a career change and initially make less money with the risk of losing all as you correctly explained, then it's my gamble and if it goes wrong then it's my problem.
Eastern wiseguy had a problem with someone who keeps their options open with a view on changing employer. Well, tough sh*t mate, you get your OJT money whether he stays in the company for 6 months or 20 years. You get what you give, if the company feeds sh*t from top level down, be prepared to get the same in return !
This has got nothing to do with Air Traffic Control and aptitude, it's simple mechanics of business and supply/demand !!
And ZOOKER, it was actually one of the top 20 companies to work for. Not 100
regards
Times are changing, supply and demand and all that. If NATS feel they can offer a trainee a contract without bonding, then it's their gamble and if someone decides to take advantage of that, it's their problem.
If I decide to take a career change and initially make less money with the risk of losing all as you correctly explained, then it's my gamble and if it goes wrong then it's my problem.
Eastern wiseguy had a problem with someone who keeps their options open with a view on changing employer. Well, tough sh*t mate, you get your OJT money whether he stays in the company for 6 months or 20 years. You get what you give, if the company feeds sh*t from top level down, be prepared to get the same in return !
This has got nothing to do with Air Traffic Control and aptitude, it's simple mechanics of business and supply/demand !!
And ZOOKER, it was actually one of the top 20 companies to work for. Not 100
regards
Join Date: Aug 2002
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It's alright to say for someone who's probably taking home in excess of 4 grand a month, probably joined as CAA, trained over a few years on a wage that 10 years ago was double of what I get now (that's in absolute terms, not adjusted to inflation !!!!), had a pension (albeit now reduced) and maybe, just maybe, even had a chance to work where he/she would have liked to.
4 GRAND?...Band 2 ATCO Watch Manager earning waaay less than that. Working in NSL and trying to keep the contract. Why should we train ANYONE to go work for a competitor?
Ask BHD how many ex NATS atco's they have. Ask Dubai how many ex NATS Atco's they have.
And don't call me MATE!!
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Why should we train ANYONE to go work for a competitor?
Ask BHD how many ex NATS atco's they have. Ask Dubai how many ex NATS Atco's they have.
Ask BHD how many ex NATS atco's they have. Ask Dubai how many ex NATS Atco's they have.
I'd be interested to see how any bonding system would work? And how long should NATS bond trainees? 3 years? I can't see that helping; by the time people have been through college, trained and validated at a unit, and got experience that would make them attractive to another unit then we'd be cracking on 3 years anyway? 5 years? Maybe for life?! "Seeing as we trained you, as long as you wish to exercise you're ATCO license it must be with NATS" (would that even be legal?)
The biggest issue surrounding this seems to be location. And yes, people know what they are signing up for, and sign a form to say that. But it is within people's nature that they may wish to work in a certain area, and that is something NATS or any company cannot get away from. The random posting system is a big bone of contention within the company and ask any trainee and they'll tell you a story of a mental posting that made no sense. Perhaps NATS could try harder to help people end up where they want to be; if not straight out of college, further down the line (moving between units can be as hard as getting that golden posting out of Hurn). I'm not sure on the practicalities of it; and of course you will never satisfy everyone, but a happy employee is more likely to stay with you.
It often gets said in jest, but perhaps NATS should be looking at what they can do to keep people that they have spent a lot of money to train? Why do people want to go elsehwhere? Whatever the answer, I don't think bonding new recruits will make any problem go away.
PS: I knew exactly what I was signing up for when i joined this company, and nothing typed above is moaning or whingeing, just observation. I got offered a great oppurtunity and I have never regretted signing the contract.
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Surely that's just a consequence of the open job market? If anyone, in any industry, thinks that employer B is offering them something more attractive than their current employer then why shouldn't they move?
Agree completely but why should we pay for the training and waste our time and resources so that a competitor can pick them up cheaply?
As for how does it work...how do Ryanair do it?. I am no fan of the pikey BUT he does seem to be able to make money.
Zooker this thread is for ATCO's
StandupfortheUlstermen
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Ask BHD how many ex NATS atco's they have.
Although that said, it's not so much a case of what the competition offers, but more what NATS takes away from it's staff that makes them bu66er off!
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"It was actually one of the top 20 companies to work for. Not 100".
Even more surprising then that there is a perceived requirement to "bond the buggahs!!".
Even more surprising then that there is a perceived requirement to "bond the buggahs!!".
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How about getting trainees to sign a contract, which states something along the lines of
Not a bond per se, but will discourage cutting and running to sunnier climes until we get some return of service. If an ATCO was later found to be useless and hade their licence removed, then that would be a get out of jail free card as it's not disciplinary.
Only successful ATCOs who leave NATS of their own volition, or by doing something to upset the applecart would have to pay.
"Upon successful validation at a unit you shall take up a debt, hereby known as a training loan, to cover training costs. Repayment shall be waived unless you leave NATS (through disciplinary dismissal or VR) within a period of 5 years (for example) of your validation date.
Validation date is the date at which you satisfy the unit MUR.
The amount of the training loan shall be £80k (or any suitable figure).
The following costs shall be incurred
Leave within
1 year 100% to be repaid
1-2 years 80% to be repaid
2-3 years 60% to be repaid
3-4 years 40% to be repaid
4-5 years 20% to be repaid."
after 5 or more years - debt cancelled"
Validation date is the date at which you satisfy the unit MUR.
The amount of the training loan shall be £80k (or any suitable figure).
The following costs shall be incurred
Leave within
1 year 100% to be repaid
1-2 years 80% to be repaid
2-3 years 60% to be repaid
3-4 years 40% to be repaid
4-5 years 20% to be repaid."
after 5 or more years - debt cancelled"
Only successful ATCOs who leave NATS of their own volition, or by doing something to upset the applecart would have to pay.
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Not a bond per se, but will discourage cutting and running to sunnier climes until we get some return of service. If an ATCO was later found to be useless and hade their licence removed, then that would be a get out of jail free card as it's not disciplinary.
Only successful ATCOs who leave NATS of their own volition, or by doing something to upset the applecart would have to pay.
Only successful ATCOs who leave NATS of their own volition, or by doing something to upset the applecart would have to pay.
On paper i'm sure it looks great (especially from those of us who are already inside NATS and never had such a system, and indeed a lot of people who went through training when the T&Cs were excceptionally better).
However I'm not sure it would help. Someone could leave before validation, and to some regional units a Student license will still be incredibly attractive; and if someone already has a few months of training, even more so.
Really though, is the issue such a problem at all? I guess it applies to NSL far more than NERL. But are ATCO trainees leaving in their droves to fill positions at rival airports? I think ATCOs of ALL levels of seniority and experience are leaving NATS for greener pastures, not just the newbies.
Bonding trainees would be like repairing a leaking water main with an elastoplast. People leaving NATS are from all grades.