South African ATC
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Im not in the SA union, Im Canadian...I have friends there, and I take an interest in it.
Maybe bonuses for the locals will equalize and reduce the inherent stresses associated with the inequality that is being proposed.
Maybe bonuses for the locals will equalize and reduce the inherent stresses associated with the inequality that is being proposed.
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Cream or dry cake
It may well sount tempting to go and work in South Africa on a short term lease. The reason for the offer is obviously the soccer in 2012 (if I remember correctly, not the biggest fan).
I just want people to keep in mind that there must be a reason for all the SA controllers trying to land a job somewhere else, f.ex. in the UAE.
I guess the reason is job related, i.e. salaries and conditions.
So as one colleague to another, do you really think you are helping the SA controllers by accepting the short term contract being offered.
Please think again and again.
I suggest that you try to influence your union to draw local and international attention to the upcoming situation in SA and put some pressure on the SA ANSP. Going in and accepting 2 or 3 times the salaries being offered to locals just because you can does not sound very ethical to me.
Take care.
I just want people to keep in mind that there must be a reason for all the SA controllers trying to land a job somewhere else, f.ex. in the UAE.
I guess the reason is job related, i.e. salaries and conditions.
So as one colleague to another, do you really think you are helping the SA controllers by accepting the short term contract being offered.
Please think again and again.
I suggest that you try to influence your union to draw local and international attention to the upcoming situation in SA and put some pressure on the SA ANSP. Going in and accepting 2 or 3 times the salaries being offered to locals just because you can does not sound very ethical to me.
Take care.
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Ok, a relevant question then; should every controller in the world, with more or less the same workload, earn the same no matter where he works in the world? In a perfect world - of course!
That is, however, unfortunately not the reality no matter how much we all want it to be that way. (Or maybe not..?)
I tend to see it like this; SA is in desperate need of ATCOs, partially because of the WC coming up. What should they do? Leasing seems to be the only option here since there simply aren't enough guys around. What would happen IF European ATCOs are offered a contract in SA, with their present salaries, benefits etc., and they all turn down the offer? Naturally it would really make a point to the public that ATCOs from around the world stand together and are unified in this matter.
What would, however, be the consequences? Probably, a more or less
f
up WC and a lot of negative media attention for ATNS and for SA as a country. Would it be worth it?
I'm sure there are some German guys around who can tell you how much extra traffic you can expect during a WC.
When it comes to the European guys that might come to SA, you never know, some of them might want to stay after the contract is over. Money is not everything after all....
Another thing - what's the diffrence between a European ATCO going to SA on a lease, making a lot more money than the locals and a South African guy leaving SA to go work in the sand pit (or wherever), also earning a lot more than in SA?
I personally don't find the first alternative any worse than the second when it comes to solidarity.
That is, however, unfortunately not the reality no matter how much we all want it to be that way. (Or maybe not..?)
I tend to see it like this; SA is in desperate need of ATCOs, partially because of the WC coming up. What should they do? Leasing seems to be the only option here since there simply aren't enough guys around. What would happen IF European ATCOs are offered a contract in SA, with their present salaries, benefits etc., and they all turn down the offer? Naturally it would really make a point to the public that ATCOs from around the world stand together and are unified in this matter.
What would, however, be the consequences? Probably, a more or less
f
up WC and a lot of negative media attention for ATNS and for SA as a country. Would it be worth it?I'm sure there are some German guys around who can tell you how much extra traffic you can expect during a WC.
When it comes to the European guys that might come to SA, you never know, some of them might want to stay after the contract is over. Money is not everything after all....
Another thing - what's the diffrence between a European ATCO going to SA on a lease, making a lot more money than the locals and a South African guy leaving SA to go work in the sand pit (or wherever), also earning a lot more than in SA?
I personally don't find the first alternative any worse than the second when it comes to solidarity.
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The difference is choice.
An ATCO from SA chooses to stay in hopes of better conditions, no doubt. A SA ATCO who goes somewhere in search of better conditions is also excercising their right of choice. When an outsider enters a negative environment with better pay and benefits than the locals, that is not respecting the home ATCO's choice is it.
I think your "relevant question" is easy to answer, yes we all should be paid equally relative to cost of living, workload etc. Your intention to enter that environment at a level much higher than your work mates than you threaten their security, your own, and the goals which they may be trying to achieve.
Yes the world cup is an important event, and if it draws attention to the inequalities that fellow ATCO's experience, than so be it...
Than go as an equal, same pay and benefits...
An ATCO from SA chooses to stay in hopes of better conditions, no doubt. A SA ATCO who goes somewhere in search of better conditions is also excercising their right of choice. When an outsider enters a negative environment with better pay and benefits than the locals, that is not respecting the home ATCO's choice is it.
I think your "relevant question" is easy to answer, yes we all should be paid equally relative to cost of living, workload etc. Your intention to enter that environment at a level much higher than your work mates than you threaten their security, your own, and the goals which they may be trying to achieve.
Yes the world cup is an important event, and if it draws attention to the inequalities that fellow ATCO's experience, than so be it...
Money is not everything after all....
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The difference is choice.
I totally agree with what FT mentioned earlier;
Expecting controllers to move to another country on short term contracts just for the fun of it is a little naive.
A SA ATCO who goes somewhere in search of better conditions is also excercising their right of choice.
I'm not sure that a possible lease would affect the environment for SA ATCOs in a negative way. Of course, the whole idea of ATNS paying a rediculous sum of money to hire foreigners instead of giving the locals a well deserved pay raise is, to say the least, strange.
But, if you look at other companies in the world, outside of ATC, there's nothing strange about hiring people on a temporary basis (consultants) if you really need it and even paying a lot more than you would if they were hired directly.
However, it really would be a temporary solution and I guess the more people that become aware of the conditions in SA the better. Hiring Europeans on a temporary basis would definitely put a lot more attention on the issue. If it's a good or bad idea? Who knows..
Glad we have a discussion going
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This is truly great discussion...interesting indeed
Lets not get too sidetracked...the original issue is that local ATCOs are making on average 5-9 times less than a European ATCO. The proposal is for European ATCOs to work in SA for the same wage they are making in their respective country. The cost of living in the popular parts of SA is comparable to many parts in western Europe. The right of choice is yours to prevent further contaminating the work environment that is existing there.
I think the best short term solution is to contract foreign ATCOs at the relative rate and increase bonuses to the locals to the average equivalent salarys being paid to the leasees.
Well, where is the right of choice if you, more or less, condemn people going to SA on a lease? What makes it a better choice to leave the country and the fellow ATCOs behind?
I think the best short term solution is to contract foreign ATCOs at the relative rate and increase bonuses to the locals to the average equivalent salarys being paid to the leasees.
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having faced similar situation in the past,I would like to give my opinion.
There is no single management in the world with the idea to pay workers.If they have an opportunity to pay nothing for your work they will do it. that logic is not good for business but it is excellent for management and theirs supporters(politicians in case of ATC business).
Management in your company made a lot of mismanagement decisions so now your company will pay the price.They could not avoid situation to lease/recruit foreigners.
If someone believe that an average European ATCO will go there for the same money as they have at home,I must say it is stupid idea. Even myself(as lowest paid APS/SUP ATCO in Europe) is not interested to go to SA for your salary.
You may consider that you wouldn't find qualified ATCO for JNB or CPT below 12 000 euros per month.All cost included(housing,recruitment process,trainning,air tickets ,company's car and so on).
Unofficial standard in my ex-country and now as well is: If you are going somewhere else than your primary location,in order to solve staff shortage at that location than you will get more or less double salary for that month. especially if you are sent abroad.
So,standard European ATCO salary(when you take into consideration local costs,benefits other tna salary and related issues) is around 5000 euros/per month.
So do not expect that you will see leased ATCOs from Europe below 12 000 euros/per mont.That will be the price that your company/state will pay for that solution.
How much of those money will stay in ATCOs pocket is different question.
You will have two option,to accept such deal,help to ex-pats to validate and survive World Cup(by the way Cup will be held at 2010 and Serbia will take a title
) or,
you will not accept that combination and you will see what are the real problems with traffic congestion and staff shortage combined.And your salary will remain more or less the same level as it is today. You wouldn't get huge pay rise,if you rejects ex pats.
There is no single management in the world with the idea to pay workers.If they have an opportunity to pay nothing for your work they will do it. that logic is not good for business but it is excellent for management and theirs supporters(politicians in case of ATC business).
Management in your company made a lot of mismanagement decisions so now your company will pay the price.They could not avoid situation to lease/recruit foreigners.
If someone believe that an average European ATCO will go there for the same money as they have at home,I must say it is stupid idea. Even myself(as lowest paid APS/SUP ATCO in Europe) is not interested to go to SA for your salary.
You may consider that you wouldn't find qualified ATCO for JNB or CPT below 12 000 euros per month.All cost included(housing,recruitment process,trainning,air tickets ,company's car and so on).
Unofficial standard in my ex-country and now as well is: If you are going somewhere else than your primary location,in order to solve staff shortage at that location than you will get more or less double salary for that month. especially if you are sent abroad.
So,standard European ATCO salary(when you take into consideration local costs,benefits other tna salary and related issues) is around 5000 euros/per month.
So do not expect that you will see leased ATCOs from Europe below 12 000 euros/per mont.That will be the price that your company/state will pay for that solution.
How much of those money will stay in ATCOs pocket is different question.
You will have two option,to accept such deal,help to ex-pats to validate and survive World Cup(by the way Cup will be held at 2010 and Serbia will take a title
) or,you will not accept that combination and you will see what are the real problems with traffic congestion and staff shortage combined.And your salary will remain more or less the same level as it is today. You wouldn't get huge pay rise,if you rejects ex pats.
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I think the best short term solution is to contract foreign ATCOs at the relative rate and increase bonuses to the locals to the average equivalent salarys being paid to the leasees.
But, Tesox, you're right about what should be the fairest way of doing it. (bonuses for the SA:s to level the differences)
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First off, great thread going here with some good points...
Having read all the previous posts I understand where both parties are coming from. I think it can be summed up through from an SA ATCO perspective by saying that they are tired of upper management trying to fix the symptoms, not the cause!
It all seems awfully reactive. Before setting about contracting international ATCO's, put in place a decent retention scheme. At least try! A 7 odd percent increase is a pinky finger short of a full handed slap in the face.
Ultimately though, it's a short term solution, post world cup, assuming all the contracted ATCO's return from whence they came, SA ATCO's will be back in the same boat. It's not a very big boat, there's no paddles and they'll get no days off to go fishing.
This all show's ATNS's uncanny ability to confuse the facts with the issues! Will it solve the immediate problem re 2010 SWC? Possibly. Will it solve the reason for getting them in the low staff compliment position in the first place? Almost certainly not.
Having read all the previous posts I understand where both parties are coming from. I think it can be summed up through from an SA ATCO perspective by saying that they are tired of upper management trying to fix the symptoms, not the cause!
It all seems awfully reactive. Before setting about contracting international ATCO's, put in place a decent retention scheme. At least try! A 7 odd percent increase is a pinky finger short of a full handed slap in the face.
Ultimately though, it's a short term solution, post world cup, assuming all the contracted ATCO's return from whence they came, SA ATCO's will be back in the same boat. It's not a very big boat, there's no paddles and they'll get no days off to go fishing.
This all show's ATNS's uncanny ability to confuse the facts with the issues! Will it solve the immediate problem re 2010 SWC? Possibly. Will it solve the reason for getting them in the low staff compliment position in the first place? Almost certainly not.
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There is no doubt that we have a shortage of ATCs in SA. ATNS management have now woken up to this and are frantically looking for a short term solution and they think they have found it - employ overseas ATCs either or loan/lease or short term contracts.
However what they forget is that it takes time to train these people and that is where the next stuff up is coming. We have backlog of ATCs that need training at FACT, as does FAJS, and where do we put these short term people in the queue - at the front and stop training of permanent ATCs or at the back of the queue? Put them at the back and they wont be trained in time for next June, that is for sure. Put them in the front and the permanent people will lose out. Training of app will take 3 - 4 months per person - you need min of 200 hours to go solo on app and at 30 hours a week of dual that equats to 8 weeks. As most people do not go solo at 200 hours, closer to 250-300 hours you are looking at training a max of 4-5 people before June next year. That certainly wont solve the problem. We need a lot more numbers than that. What those illustrious jam- stealers at Isando cant understand is that if you need 200 hours to do an app validation at 40 hours a week, they seem to think it takes 5 weeks to send someone solo ( 40 x 5 = 200 hours). They cant understand you have breaks on your shifts, some periods are not suitable for training, the student might have other tasks to do - ie some theory training, not only practical, etc etc.
So until Isando wake up, remove one or two of those incompetent recruiters and settle down on a long term plan they are continiously going to be treading water, when it comes to staffing levels. And to make matters worse, as the world economies emerge from the recession there is going to be a need for more ATCs overseas so there will always be an outflow. Also a large number of senior ATcs have the option to go within the next 5 years, which they could well exercise....
If you want to come to a place that spares no money on modern equipment and maintains it and keeps it up to date, you are not going to go far wrong coming to SA. That is one excellent point about ATNS. There is also no doubt the standard is not what is was 10/5 years ago and that is a worrying thing - there are some great ATCs coming through the system, but they are far in the minority - to the vast majority of youngsters, it is a highly paid job and there is no passion, like the youngsters had 10/5 years ago. But that is not only unique amongst ATCs - it is just a factor of todays youth - they just see a job as a means to an end and there is no professionalism and loyalty - take any other profession and see how often a youngster jumps from company to company....
As to pay - well we are never going to find a solution to this one - people will always be complaining about pay - i believe it should largely be related to where you live/work. I challenged an 8 year ATC the other day to go through the local job-finder and find me a job that pays the same as his, alternatively find me a job that has 3-4 years training and then 8 years experience and see what they earn..... He nearly s(*t himself when he found out what he was getting paid compared to an engineer, and also what a deputy director-general in a government department gets paid - thats the last I think we will hear him moaning about salaries!!!!! And also bearing in mind the amount of time off we have compared to them......
You are never going to find a truly happy ATC - that is a fact. In these tough times we should be grateful we have a decent job, quality time off and a relatively good salary. Sure I can earn more in the Middle East, but to some of us money is not everything - quality of life is high on the agenda, and do I want to stay in the sand ......... We might, tesox as you allege, be earning 5 - 9 times less than a European ATC but compared to the life-style - nothing but nothing beats living in Cape Town...........life 101 - if you have a budget and discipline to manage it - you going to do fine.
However what they forget is that it takes time to train these people and that is where the next stuff up is coming. We have backlog of ATCs that need training at FACT, as does FAJS, and where do we put these short term people in the queue - at the front and stop training of permanent ATCs or at the back of the queue? Put them at the back and they wont be trained in time for next June, that is for sure. Put them in the front and the permanent people will lose out. Training of app will take 3 - 4 months per person - you need min of 200 hours to go solo on app and at 30 hours a week of dual that equats to 8 weeks. As most people do not go solo at 200 hours, closer to 250-300 hours you are looking at training a max of 4-5 people before June next year. That certainly wont solve the problem. We need a lot more numbers than that. What those illustrious jam- stealers at Isando cant understand is that if you need 200 hours to do an app validation at 40 hours a week, they seem to think it takes 5 weeks to send someone solo ( 40 x 5 = 200 hours). They cant understand you have breaks on your shifts, some periods are not suitable for training, the student might have other tasks to do - ie some theory training, not only practical, etc etc.
So until Isando wake up, remove one or two of those incompetent recruiters and settle down on a long term plan they are continiously going to be treading water, when it comes to staffing levels. And to make matters worse, as the world economies emerge from the recession there is going to be a need for more ATCs overseas so there will always be an outflow. Also a large number of senior ATcs have the option to go within the next 5 years, which they could well exercise....
If you want to come to a place that spares no money on modern equipment and maintains it and keeps it up to date, you are not going to go far wrong coming to SA. That is one excellent point about ATNS. There is also no doubt the standard is not what is was 10/5 years ago and that is a worrying thing - there are some great ATCs coming through the system, but they are far in the minority - to the vast majority of youngsters, it is a highly paid job and there is no passion, like the youngsters had 10/5 years ago. But that is not only unique amongst ATCs - it is just a factor of todays youth - they just see a job as a means to an end and there is no professionalism and loyalty - take any other profession and see how often a youngster jumps from company to company....
As to pay - well we are never going to find a solution to this one - people will always be complaining about pay - i believe it should largely be related to where you live/work. I challenged an 8 year ATC the other day to go through the local job-finder and find me a job that pays the same as his, alternatively find me a job that has 3-4 years training and then 8 years experience and see what they earn..... He nearly s(*t himself when he found out what he was getting paid compared to an engineer, and also what a deputy director-general in a government department gets paid - thats the last I think we will hear him moaning about salaries!!!!! And also bearing in mind the amount of time off we have compared to them......
You are never going to find a truly happy ATC - that is a fact. In these tough times we should be grateful we have a decent job, quality time off and a relatively good salary. Sure I can earn more in the Middle East, but to some of us money is not everything - quality of life is high on the agenda, and do I want to stay in the sand ......... We might, tesox as you allege, be earning 5 - 9 times less than a European ATC but compared to the life-style - nothing but nothing beats living in Cape Town...........life 101 - if you have a budget and discipline to manage it - you going to do fine.
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You certainly have some wise words Goldfish Jack
I would agree with you for the most part. Just one point you didn't mention while discussing training is that a maximum of two ATCO's can be trained at a time effectively. If you have 8 people in the wings waiting for training they\ve got to wait their turn. On top of that, an ATCO without a validation really isn't much use... They can't work anywhere.
Look at how many months to the SWC, and how many ATNS says they need. Then work out how many it's possible to train in a best case scenario, everybody solo at 250hrs, no consolidation and assuming that those rated ATCO's without an OJTI rating don't have to work at all for that period... I smell trouble
This is also completely ignoring the fact that the new APP controllers who have just got their first validation, have 3 months real experience and are now going to be controlling enormous amounts of traffic.
The only part of your summation I disagree with is that I was a truly hppy ATC. I loved my job and my lifestlyle. I only left since my sideline business overtook my carreer. But I'm still doing something I love
I would agree with you for the most part. Just one point you didn't mention while discussing training is that a maximum of two ATCO's can be trained at a time effectively. If you have 8 people in the wings waiting for training they\ve got to wait their turn. On top of that, an ATCO without a validation really isn't much use... They can't work anywhere.
Look at how many months to the SWC, and how many ATNS says they need. Then work out how many it's possible to train in a best case scenario, everybody solo at 250hrs, no consolidation and assuming that those rated ATCO's without an OJTI rating don't have to work at all for that period... I smell trouble
This is also completely ignoring the fact that the new APP controllers who have just got their first validation, have 3 months real experience and are now going to be controlling enormous amounts of traffic.The only part of your summation I disagree with is that I was a truly hppy ATC. I loved my job and my lifestlyle. I only left since my sideline business overtook my carreer. But I'm still doing something I love
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One small point, you cannot read anything from the German example as to increase in air traffic for the SA world cup. the reason being that a large number of international visitors could come by car or rail. That is not the case with SA.
From a quick google, estimates seem to range from 300,000 to 500,000 additional long haul visitors. That's a lot of extra flights in a releatively short time period. And ignores any additional internal flights needed to transfer spectators from one match to another (I don't know which cities are being used for games, nor whether sides will move from one to another or be based in a single place so I can't work that out)
From a quick google, estimates seem to range from 300,000 to 500,000 additional long haul visitors. That's a lot of extra flights in a releatively short time period. And ignores any additional internal flights needed to transfer spectators from one match to another (I don't know which cities are being used for games, nor whether sides will move from one to another or be based in a single place so I can't work that out)
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I have to agree with GFJ for the most part...
ATNS management are in my opinion generally very good in running the company. I've worked for large reputable EU and ME employers and they could ALL learn something from ATNS Management.
As for lack of job "passion" - this is not unique to SA in the least - in fact - ALL of my friends at FACT have a great deal more passion than anything I've experienced previously. ATC is just a job to most newbies around the world and as long as they execute their duties with skill and professionalism, why take issue?
Coming back to the original post: "....Would be interesting to hear what any of the locals have to say about all this. Understand that it could be quite a sensitive subject. In addition to that there's not much positive to be read about the job in this forum..."
I agree with GFJ is saying that this is all possibly too little too late - BUT - as for taking a Joburg-like stand and saying that leased controllers won't be trained - total Bullsh!t!! The likes of STOZ and FinalControl should check their Joburg demigod ATC attitudes at security and learn as much as they can from leased ATC's! (@ thealps - now there's some tension for u!
)
P
ATNS management are in my opinion generally very good in running the company. I've worked for large reputable EU and ME employers and they could ALL learn something from ATNS Management.
As for lack of job "passion" - this is not unique to SA in the least - in fact - ALL of my friends at FACT have a great deal more passion than anything I've experienced previously. ATC is just a job to most newbies around the world and as long as they execute their duties with skill and professionalism, why take issue?
Coming back to the original post: "....Would be interesting to hear what any of the locals have to say about all this. Understand that it could be quite a sensitive subject. In addition to that there's not much positive to be read about the job in this forum..."
I agree with GFJ is saying that this is all possibly too little too late - BUT - as for taking a Joburg-like stand and saying that leased controllers won't be trained - total Bullsh!t!! The likes of STOZ and FinalControl should check their Joburg demigod ATC attitudes at security and learn as much as they can from leased ATC's! (@ thealps - now there's some tension for u!
)P
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200 hrs plus to validate a controller? An ab initio trainee but not an experienced controller which the leased guys will be.
One things is for certain, something needs to be done, what would the locals suggest? Come 2010 ATNS will need to have done something unless you want the world cup played in Germany again!
One things is for certain, something needs to be done, what would the locals suggest? Come 2010 ATNS will need to have done something unless you want the world cup played in Germany again!
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The 200 Hours is a CAA requirement for an initial validation - this applies to new people and also to people from other countries. In certain cirumstances, application can be made to the CAA to reduce the training period - has nothing to do with ATNS
Skyjuggler as to the training of 2 app ATCs at the same time, you have to remember at FACT we have a morning and an afternoon shift - we can train on one of those shifts and then we have to keep the other shift open to the current controllers can remain current and be rostered through that one. So that effectively means we can only train one person at a time! One must not forget the other staff - they have to remain current, so slots must be kept open for them all the time. Same situation in the tower. Area is different - 2 positions - 4 shifts, so you can train 2 people at the same time. Nights shifts are not any real good for training as there is not much traffic after 2100B
Skyjuggler as to the training of 2 app ATCs at the same time, you have to remember at FACT we have a morning and an afternoon shift - we can train on one of those shifts and then we have to keep the other shift open to the current controllers can remain current and be rostered through that one. So that effectively means we can only train one person at a time! One must not forget the other staff - they have to remain current, so slots must be kept open for them all the time. Same situation in the tower. Area is different - 2 positions - 4 shifts, so you can train 2 people at the same time. Nights shifts are not any real good for training as there is not much traffic after 2100B
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500 000 is that all, 1000 A380's 8 nm's apart you can start your line-up at the north pole. All the app guys need to do is clear them for the app.
€12000 a month i might be in
Goodluck
PS i'm bidding for tickets and planning to fly "down" so I guess its good luck to me!
€12000 a month i might be in
Goodluck
PS i'm bidding for tickets and planning to fly "down" so I guess its good luck to me!
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When it comes to training, we currently have 15 trainees in total on ojt in area (8 Sectors max.). That means not a lot of shifts for anyone without a trainee and that's the way it seems to remain for quite some time.
It's not fun at all but it's clear to everyone (more or less..) that it's for our own benefit in the future.
I'm sure that with a bit of effort you could train quite a lot of foreigners in time for the SWC. (Don't know when they plan to hire people, though, if any at all)
Where is the lack of staff worse, CT, JB, area, app?
Porra- don't see that much tension yet!!
It's not fun at all but it's clear to everyone (more or less..) that it's for our own benefit in the future.
I'm sure that with a bit of effort you could train quite a lot of foreigners in time for the SWC. (Don't know when they plan to hire people, though, if any at all)
Where is the lack of staff worse, CT, JB, area, app?
Porra- don't see that much tension yet!!