South African ATC
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Chwenesbeg
Age: 53
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These points are all moot.
Dis te laat, it's too late, c'est trop tard, das ist zu spaet. Get it?
ATNS should have taken their thinking out of their back sides a LOOOOONG time ago but, alas, te dom, too stupid, trop stupide, zu dumm. Und auch zu politisch. We're far more concerned with demographics than we are with actually moving aircraft. An arbitrator at a dispute was told recently that ATNS' core business is in fact NOT air traffic control.
Really? You mean the cake and muffin unit is our bread and butter? Or maybe it's that bastion of efficiency, the department run by Grandmere Somethingwithaclick. I hear they recently moved into their 5th building at the office park / circus grounds. Maybe it should be called Support Staff Job Creation and Navigation Services? Ag nee wat, SSJCNS? Te lomp. Zu Laestig. Too cumbersome
The 2 of us who will still be here when the fiasco kicks off are going to have the best seats to watch the biggest cock up in the history of cock ups.
Isn't it ironic that ATNS is just one little "a" short of satan. Lucky for them they couldn't get an "a" for anything except maybe their collective hole.
Klaar gepraat.
Dis te laat, it's too late, c'est trop tard, das ist zu spaet. Get it?
ATNS should have taken their thinking out of their back sides a LOOOOONG time ago but, alas, te dom, too stupid, trop stupide, zu dumm. Und auch zu politisch. We're far more concerned with demographics than we are with actually moving aircraft. An arbitrator at a dispute was told recently that ATNS' core business is in fact NOT air traffic control.
Really? You mean the cake and muffin unit is our bread and butter? Or maybe it's that bastion of efficiency, the department run by Grandmere Somethingwithaclick. I hear they recently moved into their 5th building at the office park / circus grounds. Maybe it should be called Support Staff Job Creation and Navigation Services? Ag nee wat, SSJCNS? Te lomp. Zu Laestig. Too cumbersomeThe 2 of us who will still be here when the fiasco kicks off are going to have the best seats to watch the biggest cock up in the history of cock ups.
Isn't it ironic that ATNS is just one little "a" short of satan. Lucky for them they couldn't get an "a" for anything except maybe their collective hole.
Klaar gepraat.
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Chwenesbeg
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Makeapullup
You want to check that location of yours? SA? Really? Haven't seen you around these parts for a while now. Unless I'm just not looking in the right places ...
You want to check that location of yours? SA? Really? Haven't seen you around these parts for a while now. Unless I'm just not looking in the right places ...
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Northern Half
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GFJ,
Your post reflects the same, you don't know how lucky you ATC's have it, tone I have heard from incompetent ANSP managers over the last 30 years and especially over the last 15.
From what you have written I deduce that ATNS is a good employer who:
"As to pay - well we are never going to find a solution to this one " , well you're simply wrong on this as I am a satisfied ATC who is very well paid, has a ten day roster which provides me with ample rest and family time, have 48 days leave per year, have comprehensive medical, education and housing allowances, works on the latest equipment whilst using the most current practices and my ANSP is fully staffed - with some contract staff who earn the same salaries as the local employees - by people who are passionate about their jobs. All this because we have a competent management.
From what I read on this thread ATNS management has some serious retention issues with its ATC staff and I read elsewhere that they actually have to hold their staff hostage through bonds. To an outsider ATNS management seems totally inept at keeping its ATC's and the fact that they intend to, expensively, contract out their mistakes to other ANSP's to address is an admission of guilt which deserves their resignations.
Should ATNS management choose to take this short term option then I call on ATCs worldwide to demonstrate some brotherhood and to reject this offer and show these bad managers the consequences of their incompetence, and in this case the consequences to ATNS shall be embarrassing in the least. To ATCs in SA I would say; in response to those foreign individuals who take up the offer and put their selfish wants ahead of your bread and butter, the solution is simple : don't train the buggers!
Your post reflects the same, you don't know how lucky you ATC's have it, tone I have heard from incompetent ANSP managers over the last 30 years and especially over the last 15.
From what you have written I deduce that ATNS is a good employer who:
- pays a market related ATC salary, however, it's not related to the international ATC job market but rather to the general SA job market and makes comparisons to other professions that have nothing to do with ATC supply and demand dynamics.
- ATNS management requires that its ATC's work a minimum 40 hour work-week and doesn't understand that its ATC's take breaks at work. (This 40 hour work week minimum in itself negates any argument that ATC in SA has "more time off" than other professions ).
- That ATNS's ATC shortage is a consequence of " one or two of those incompetent recruiters " and that ATNS management hasn't noticed this for an unmentioned number of years.
- You then end by stating, "but nothing beats living in Cape Town" , which has nothing to do with ATNS.
"As to pay - well we are never going to find a solution to this one " , well you're simply wrong on this as I am a satisfied ATC who is very well paid, has a ten day roster which provides me with ample rest and family time, have 48 days leave per year, have comprehensive medical, education and housing allowances, works on the latest equipment whilst using the most current practices and my ANSP is fully staffed - with some contract staff who earn the same salaries as the local employees - by people who are passionate about their jobs. All this because we have a competent management.
From what I read on this thread ATNS management has some serious retention issues with its ATC staff and I read elsewhere that they actually have to hold their staff hostage through bonds. To an outsider ATNS management seems totally inept at keeping its ATC's and the fact that they intend to, expensively, contract out their mistakes to other ANSP's to address is an admission of guilt which deserves their resignations.
Should ATNS management choose to take this short term option then I call on ATCs worldwide to demonstrate some brotherhood and to reject this offer and show these bad managers the consequences of their incompetence, and in this case the consequences to ATNS shall be embarrassing in the least. To ATCs in SA I would say; in response to those foreign individuals who take up the offer and put their selfish wants ahead of your bread and butter, the solution is simple : don't train the buggers!
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: south africa
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what has lead to this
ATNS has itself to blame for being in this situation and is now trying to play their last card.why? just take a look at the pass and failure rate of the last 5 years at the academy.most of the Assistant and Aerodrome courses had a failure rate of more than 50% which leaves us with no-one to train to replace the hordes leaving to play amongst the sand dunes.
but thats all well..because us at the smaller stations will comply with the daily flow control message from joburg:all departures to joburg tma to be seperated by ten minutes or more due to sectors being combined because of lack of staff.so what they gonna do during world cup? how they gonna implement flow control to europe and african states while keeping local airlines happy?
but thats all well..because us at the smaller stations will comply with the daily flow control message from joburg:all departures to joburg tma to be seperated by ten minutes or more due to sectors being combined because of lack of staff.so what they gonna do during world cup? how they gonna implement flow control to europe and african states while keeping local airlines happy?
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: In Denial
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I had some work to do this morning and before I set in, I thought I'd browse the forum.
TAVLA... Uitstekend Boet! I don't think anyone could have put it any better, even in one language
Mercury Rising... I must commend you on a very well composed post. You quite elegantly stated what ATNSers have been feeling about management for a long time.
However, let me be the first to say, "I'd LOVE to know where you work!!!" Where do I sign up? I dust off my headset in a shot.
As for the failure rate, I believe there are all sorts of new things in place now... Rumour has it on primary 1,2/3 a fail is no longer what it used to be. On top of that, the tower course is now about 6 months long!
I have nothing against the future conrollers of the world being given a fair chance but I'm reminded of a saying the old head of the college used to say (with adequately flamboyant swear words as punctuation), the motto is "Train to succeed" not "train UNTIL you succeed!"
TAVLA... Uitstekend Boet! I don't think anyone could have put it any better, even in one language
Mercury Rising... I must commend you on a very well composed post. You quite elegantly stated what ATNSers have been feeling about management for a long time.
However, let me be the first to say, "I'd LOVE to know where you work!!!" Where do I sign up? I dust off my headset in a shot.
As for the failure rate, I believe there are all sorts of new things in place now... Rumour has it on primary 1,2/3 a fail is no longer what it used to be. On top of that, the tower course is now about 6 months long!
I have nothing against the future conrollers of the world being given a fair chance but I'm reminded of a saying the old head of the college used to say (with adequately flamboyant swear words as punctuation), the motto is "Train to succeed" not "train UNTIL you succeed!"
Last edited by Skyjuggler; 2nd Apr 2009 at 01:24. Reason: terrible spelling
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: South Africa
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Ah who really cares guys,
ATNS will do whatever they want, every time they cock-up - it's my arse on the line (excuse the cliche, but me luvs it), the ATCs will sort everything out, everything will return to DefCon3 till the next crisis.
This has been happenning since the DOT days, it's just SNAFU. To wish for anything better is the same as wishing beetroot will cure AIDS.
It's gonna be great fun, well maybe not for pilots and passengers, but for us in the dungeon - brilliant!
C u in the asylum
ATNS will do whatever they want, every time they cock-up - it's my arse on the line (excuse the cliche, but me luvs it), the ATCs will sort everything out, everything will return to DefCon3 till the next crisis.
This has been happenning since the DOT days, it's just SNAFU. To wish for anything better is the same as wishing beetroot will cure AIDS.
It's gonna be great fun, well maybe not for pilots and passengers, but for us in the dungeon - brilliant!
C u in the asylum
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bulgaria
Age: 52
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I would like to become an En-route Air Traffic Controller for ATNS but I'm not able to send all my certificates together because the size is 6.5 MB and there is a problem with the fax also. That's why i sent all my certificates separated and the problem is that no1 cares about me and my application and still no confirmation that ATNS received something .....I am confused !?!?!
Is some1 able to help me?
Is some1 able to help me?
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: The World, although sometimes I wonder
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Check the website for the postal address. Make it to attention Ms HANNALIE DREWES and then courier it DHL
Let me get back to DEFCON3 and make sure my funeral policy is up to date - one of our benefits nowadays!!!! They gonna work us to death, not give us beetroot, so they will pay for our funerals now!!!!!!!!!!!!
Let me get back to DEFCON3 and make sure my funeral policy is up to date - one of our benefits nowadays!!!!
They gonna work us to death, not give us beetroot, so they will pay for our funerals now!!!!!!!!!!!!
Join Date: Feb 2004
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An 8% Increase on the cards this year for ATNS ATC's.....
They already lost out by 3% last year getting only 9%(Inflation 12%) ????
Abu Dhabi got 40% plus this years.
ATNS already lost 30% of their Approach Controllers from Cape Town only since December last year. What are they thinking??
GFJ... not every ATC are financially independent as you are...ie no inheritance from family?
If the world market is demanding ATC's, then the Service Providers like ATNS must take this into account and make a plan to retain their staff.
Cape Town Approach will still be losing another 25% of their Approach Control Staff during the next 4 months coming
!!!
Local Training does not even fill the gap created by 2 controller leaving!!
Overseas recruiting during the past 2 years for SA controller who left ATNS only broad back 4?? Definitely not even close to solving the problem.
Good luck to those staying behind.....may you suffer in peace.
PS.. World cup 2010??? Holds, Delays, Cancellations of flights?? Who knows.
RE
They already lost out by 3% last year getting only 9%(Inflation 12%) ????
Abu Dhabi got 40% plus this years.
ATNS already lost 30% of their Approach Controllers from Cape Town only since December last year. What are they thinking??
GFJ... not every ATC are financially independent as you are...ie no inheritance from family?
If the world market is demanding ATC's, then the Service Providers like ATNS must take this into account and make a plan to retain their staff.
Cape Town Approach will still be losing another 25% of their Approach Control Staff during the next 4 months coming
!!!Local Training does not even fill the gap created by 2 controller leaving!!
Overseas recruiting during the past 2 years for SA controller who left ATNS only broad back 4?? Definitely not even close to solving the problem.
Good luck to those staying behind.....may you suffer in peace.
PS.. World cup 2010??? Holds, Delays, Cancellations of flights?? Who knows.
RE
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: durban
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There is problems all over. In Durban there are 9 controllers left to cover 6 shifts with 2 chiefs helping out. One shift was dropped to help out with staffing and shifts made longer :4-5 hours without break. One patc leaving in November.
AND WE STILL HAVE TO STAFF KING SHAKA AIRPORT WITH DURBAN FOR 2010
AND WE STILL HAVE TO STAFF KING SHAKA AIRPORT WITH DURBAN FOR 2010
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: FACT
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GFJ, while what you say about sound financial planning is true, there are levels of how frugal one should be living. With ATNS you are required to live more frugally than many other places. It isn't just sound planning, it is required.
But it also isn't about money up front. While having a nice healthy paycheck always puts a smile on your face, there are plenty of other things ATNS could be doing to help its staff out.
Like cheaper flights. Seriously. Some other ATS companies not only give their staff two flights a year back to home stations, some give two BUSINESS CLASS tickets. ATNS doesn't even offer reduced rates on internal flights, where with careful planning and advanced booking you can get a ticked from FACT to FAJS for the same price as an expensive dinner.
Empty claims of ATC's giving preferential treatment to whomever gives the better rate is exactly that, empty. You work the sequence as it happens. As it stands there are certain controllers who favour Comair anyway, so why not get some rewards?
I will grant you that finding a similarly paid job .vs study time isn't easy in South Africa, I have been "income earning" for ATNS longer than my same aged compatriots have been for their respective companies. But then, I don't need to look in SA do I? I can easily go overseas and earn much much more. Yet ATNS isn't doing squat to stop it happening. Flying into OMAA is like flying into FACT 2 years ago. All the same voices.
But it also isn't about money up front. While having a nice healthy paycheck always puts a smile on your face, there are plenty of other things ATNS could be doing to help its staff out.
Like cheaper flights. Seriously. Some other ATS companies not only give their staff two flights a year back to home stations, some give two BUSINESS CLASS tickets. ATNS doesn't even offer reduced rates on internal flights, where with careful planning and advanced booking you can get a ticked from FACT to FAJS for the same price as an expensive dinner.
Empty claims of ATC's giving preferential treatment to whomever gives the better rate is exactly that, empty. You work the sequence as it happens. As it stands there are certain controllers who favour Comair anyway, so why not get some rewards?
I will grant you that finding a similarly paid job .vs study time isn't easy in South Africa, I have been "income earning" for ATNS longer than my same aged compatriots have been for their respective companies. But then, I don't need to look in SA do I? I can easily go overseas and earn much much more. Yet ATNS isn't doing squat to stop it happening. Flying into OMAA is like flying into FACT 2 years ago. All the same voices.
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Sigh, it's their time all right
What Majestic Mirage said is a little disconcerting... Have they taken away night shift? How do they get away with only 6 shifts? Does that include tower AND approach? It was also mentioned that the chiefs were helping out. Does that include the MATS or not yet?
But back to the point, SWC is now just over a year away. Have any of the mystery controllers arrived yet? I daresay the clock is ticking...
Join Date: Mar 2009
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I sent my application for the position of area ATC 3 weeks ago ,and no any reply, information or something like "Tnx for your interest" , NOTHING. Its Africa and everything must be typical for Africa ,seems your salaries also, so i do not have what to do there!!!
I do not see how will your chiefs find experienced ATC's whit ICAO training.
I'm driving a new AUDI Q7 for 85k euro.My life is very expensive and they r not able to pay for me. If they do need a quality, they have to be ready to pay a lot for us!!!
I do not see how will your chiefs find experienced ATC's whit ICAO training.
I'm driving a new AUDI Q7 for 85k euro.My life is very expensive and they r not able to pay for me. If they do need a quality, they have to be ready to pay a lot for us!!!
Last edited by prascho; 14th Apr 2009 at 12:12.
Join Date: Jun 2002
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Call me old fashioned, or just old, but there is more to life than just the money - although it does feel better to cry in a Porsche than in a Hyundai.
I just get tired of playing for the B (or is it G) Team.
Morale is in the toilet and the soluton is.... collared shirts - I wish I was kidding.
Consistency in non-existent, the difference in service every day is chalk and horse manure, the solution is.... remove the approach supervisors and have 2 standby shifts per day. What a stroke of , I don't even have the energy to type anything sarcastic.
Every time you change position (minds out the gutter), gotta sign something, about 6 signatures in 6 different books per shift, all because the place mats in the standards office don't know the voices of their victims. Nice guys, please stop asking for my details all the time - I've been here for 16 fookin years, name - same, ID - same, birthday - same (tip - it's the 1st 6 numbers of the ID) .
We could shrink our carbon footprint you know, get rid of some of the oxygen thieves...
Anyways, my argument remains the same:
ATNS will not listen to anyone who they already pay a salary, so that leaves the customer, client, etc. Pls complain about the junk (the APDAK whatever it's called SID off 21 comes to mind) and compliment the good stuff (shortcuts, use of 03L for landings with no delays etc.)
The ball is in your court airspace users, you get what you get, and if you don't comment - don't be surprised when it's got a little odour to it.
I just get tired of playing for the B (or is it G) Team.
Morale is in the toilet and the soluton is.... collared shirts - I wish I was kidding.
Consistency in non-existent, the difference in service every day is chalk and horse manure, the solution is.... remove the approach supervisors and have 2 standby shifts per day. What a stroke of , I don't even have the energy to type anything sarcastic.
Every time you change position (minds out the gutter), gotta sign something, about 6 signatures in 6 different books per shift, all because the place mats in the standards office don't know the voices of their victims. Nice guys, please stop asking for my details all the time - I've been here for 16 fookin years, name - same, ID - same, birthday - same (tip - it's the 1st 6 numbers of the ID) .
We could shrink our carbon footprint you know, get rid of some of the oxygen thieves...
Anyways, my argument remains the same:
ATNS will not listen to anyone who they already pay a salary, so that leaves the customer, client, etc. Pls complain about the junk (the APDAK whatever it's called SID off 21 comes to mind) and compliment the good stuff (shortcuts, use of 03L for landings with no delays etc.)
The ball is in your court airspace users, you get what you get, and if you don't comment - don't be surprised when it's got a little odour to it.
Join Date: Mar 2008
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Well said once gain.
It seems that the more things change the more they stay the same. ATC's come to work EVERY day with the same problems. The staff shortage causes morale to drop, stress to climb and patience to wear thin. The complete inability of head office to realise, not only the grandeur of what's actually happening, but the detriment to the staff, has always amazed me. But the problem is this.
ATC's are a distcinct personality type. They'll always plug in, and work their butts off, to the best of their ability! Regardless of the fact that you don't have assistance, the rostering guys are frantically trying to find you a replacement etc. Ulitmately this translates into the fact that the clients have no idea what's happening. They simply think it's ops normal. That is the main reason Head Office doesn't do anything. It's not yet affecting THEIR bank balance!
Rant over!
It seems that the more things change the more they stay the same. ATC's come to work EVERY day with the same problems. The staff shortage causes morale to drop, stress to climb and patience to wear thin. The complete inability of head office to realise, not only the grandeur of what's actually happening, but the detriment to the staff, has always amazed me. But the problem is this.
ATC's are a distcinct personality type. They'll always plug in, and work their butts off, to the best of their ability! Regardless of the fact that you don't have assistance, the rostering guys are frantically trying to find you a replacement etc. Ulitmately this translates into the fact that the clients have no idea what's happening. They simply think it's ops normal. That is the main reason Head Office doesn't do anything. It's not yet affecting THEIR bank balance!
Rant over!
Every time you change position (minds out the gutter), gotta sign something, about 6 signatures in 6 different books per shift, all because the place mats in the standards office don't know the voices of their victims. Nice guys, please stop asking for my details all the time - I've been here for 16 fookin years, name - same, ID - same, birthday - same (tip - it's the 1st 6 numbers of the ID) .
Eltorro the change in sign on registers did not come from Standards/Safety Office. Beleive me we still do know the voices. The change was implemented by the Station MATS. All the other units still use the old sign on in the Occurence log. However if the procedure is not complied with we will highlight this in our reviews however this is not to harp on a point but to show that it is either not working correctly or not possible to implement.
Other sections at HQ gets just as upset as the rest with the Non-Service Delivery and Airspace Deficiency departments because sometimes it feels that we hitting against a brick wall when we trying to effect changes that should make things better. Unfortunatly the Standards/Safety section can only provide advice and cant go and effect the changes that has to be done my SD and unit management in most cases.
Moral is low in most of ATNS and is affecting everyone, especially when we told that the board wont approve new hires, the training accadamy has nothing left to offer and the instructors there are all also just as tired of doing backflips through loops for nothing.
The bigest excuse now seems that ATNS doesn't have budget for anything but there is still alot of fruitless expenditure but we will cut back on tea and coffee. Doesnt make sense but I'm no Finance guru.
Hopefully something breaks soon in the execs and they can start pullingthe company back together otherwise we all going to keep running for other places.
Eltorro the change in sign on registers did not come from Standards/Safety Office. Beleive me we still do know the voices. The change was implemented by the Station MATS. All the other units still use the old sign on in the Occurence log. However if the procedure is not complied with we will highlight this in our reviews however this is not to harp on a point but to show that it is either not working correctly or not possible to implement.
Other sections at HQ gets just as upset as the rest with the Non-Service Delivery and Airspace Deficiency departments because sometimes it feels that we hitting against a brick wall when we trying to effect changes that should make things better. Unfortunatly the Standards/Safety section can only provide advice and cant go and effect the changes that has to be done my SD and unit management in most cases.
Moral is low in most of ATNS and is affecting everyone, especially when we told that the board wont approve new hires, the training accadamy has nothing left to offer and the instructors there are all also just as tired of doing backflips through loops for nothing.
The bigest excuse now seems that ATNS doesn't have budget for anything but there is still alot of fruitless expenditure but we will cut back on tea and coffee. Doesnt make sense but I'm no Finance guru.
Hopefully something breaks soon in the execs and they can start pullingthe company back together otherwise we all going to keep running for other places.