Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > Ground & Other Ops Forums > ATC Issues
Reload this Page >

UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

ATC Issues A place where pilots may enter the 'lions den' that is Air Traffic Control in complete safety and find out the answers to all those obscure topics which you always wanted to know the answer to but were afraid to ask.

UK - NATS Pay negotiations - latest rumours

Old 15th May 2011, 11:27
  #2101 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: LHR/EGLL
Age: 45
Posts: 4,390
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
...meaning that those who commit to do AAVAs will be doing them at the current rate (iFACTS excepted) for several years at the very least. Given that students are now paid peanuts, management will not be short of volunteers from among newly valid ATCOs. As a guide, an AAVA is now worth about 17% less than it was in 2003 and RPI is running at over 5%. You'll excuse me if I don't think this was the greatest piece of union negotiation, especially when Prospect had such a strong position after management tried to circumvent the rules regarding overtime.
....So don't do them then.......

I thought it was generally accepted that Prospect would rather negotiate a rise on basic, pensionable pay that applies to everyone rather than an increase for the AAVA rate that not everyone will benefit from.
As for attending a briefing, of course I will do so if Prospect deign to turn up on a day when I am at work.
Ah, so maybe you aren't so bothered after all?
Gonzo is offline  
Old 15th May 2011, 11:31
  #2102 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Winchester.Hants.England
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Given that students are now paid peanuts................
Yes they are unfortunately.

However I heard yesterday that students in TC that are now faced with at least 6 months on the wings while waiting for TVC etc are going to be paid ATSA 3 wages.
If that is correct then full marks to Prospect for negotiating a fair deal for them
Flybywyre is offline  
Old 15th May 2011, 18:36
  #2103 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Costa del Swanwick
Posts: 834
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I will do so if Prospect deign to turn up on a day when I am at work
Funnily enough you may just have to put yourself out on occasions and go to a briefing on a day off if you think it important enough to get the facts.

If you need to have yours spoon-fed to you, then you have my sympathy.
But you want to be spoon fed the information without having to go out of your way?

The local reps on my watch are insisting that people attend a briefing as their knowledge of the negotiations and the finer points of the offer is somewhat limited.
250 kts is offline  
Old 15th May 2011, 22:37
  #2104 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Somewhere nice
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
However I heard yesterday that students in TC that are now faced with at least 6 months on the wings while waiting for TVC etc are going to be paid ATSA 3 wages.
If that is correct then full marks to Prospect for negotiating a fair deal for them
Excellent news! Sod demarcation, ATCOs can do ATSA tasks.That's absolutely fine by me! One condition though; ATSAs do flow control instead of highly paid ATCOs. How'd that be?

Lets face it, if you divide the unions by taking each others roles, then who are the executive going to listen to when it comes to cutting staff costs. If it can be done cheaper by another staff group then the executive will be very interested indeed. Prospect members need to think carefully before accepting deals that are divisive - they may end up with egg on their faces in the long run.

PCS also need to stop agreeing to short term solutions to 'keep the business viable.' I and many of my colleagues (those not nearing retirement it would seem) do not want little bonus bungs to accept poor deals in lieu of good job security. Whilst I understand that negotiators must have a tough time arguing the case for the ATSA population whilst most of their membership only seem interested in who gets the next break or EG, they must fight for the longer term goal of job security. ATSAs are not viewed as value for money; and there are only two ways for PCS, in negotiation with management, to solve that, either reduce pay (can't see anyone, other than management, wanting that) or increase staff value in terms of the tasks they undertake i.e. the company gets more from them for the money it pays them.

So next time, as a member of PCS, you find yourself saying,, "I'm not doing that, it's not not in my job description." Perhaps you should say, " I will do that if you put it in my job description."

Wake up and save yourselves!!!
Rocket_Science is offline  
Old 15th May 2011, 23:05
  #2105 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Sarf England
Posts: 138
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
....So don't do them then.......
I'm sorry? This has absolutely nothing to do with whether I choose to do AAVAs or not. It has everything to do with whether the union has thought its actions out sensibly and whether it is creating a rod for its own back in terms of future negotiations.

As for
I thought it was generally accepted that Prospect would rather negotiate a rise on basic, pensionable pay
...well, that is what they should have done then. AAVAs should not have been on the negotiating table, full stop. I mean, how on earth did we get from the position of nearly pulling out of the agreement, to the union recommending we sign up to AAVAs at the current rate in perpetuity? Answer: Prospect sacrificed AAVAs to secure what should have been ours in the first place - a cost of living pay rise.

I will attend a briefing if one comes by, but I don't see it as an obligatory precursor to making an informed decision on whether this deal is right. The company's annual results - now that's the sort of information I would like to know before my ballot is cast.

But you want to be spoon fed the information without having to go out of your way?
@250 kts: What are you talking about? No, you can put me in the "draw own conclusions" camp.

LTP
LostThePicture is offline  
Old 16th May 2011, 06:20
  #2106 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Winchester.Hants.England
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
PCS also need to stop agreeing to short term solutions to 'keep the business viable.
Did you accept the bung and sign the overtime agreement Rocket Science ?
Flybywyre is offline  
Old 16th May 2011, 22:27
  #2107 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Somewhere nice
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Did you accept the bung and sign the overtime agreement Rocket Science ?
Yes I did and your point, I guess, is going to be along the lines of why don't you practice what you preach.

First and foremost, the OT agreement is agreed by PCS. But to PCS's credit, there is a condition in the agreement that effectively suspends the agreement should PCS enter into dispute. I wouldn't have signed the agreement without that condition.

Some years ago a group of ATCOs tried an unofficial AAVA ban and from what I recall it had little or no effect at all. So I doubt unofficial action by one person is hardly going to change any management minds. Cutting off ones nose and all that.

Any action must be OFFICIAL and UNION LED to ensure it has the desired impact.
Rocket_Science is offline  
Old 17th May 2011, 04:44
  #2108 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Down South
Posts: 300
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Personally, I think the offer is good. I've got friends outside of aviation who are being told to take a pay cut or lose their jobs, a number of councils are being forced into pay cuts of up to 5.5% and we're complaining about a pay rise.

Wake up and look at the real world, yes we've had two below average rises but so has the rest of the world. At least you've got a job to moan about.

I'll be voting yes when my ballot paper turns up
The Many Tentacles is offline  
Old 17th May 2011, 08:14
  #2109 (permalink)  
StandupfortheUlstermen
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Location: Peoples' Democratic Republic of Wurzelsetshire
Age: 53
Posts: 1,182
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
I'm getting a little tired of the 'look what the poor people outside NATS aren't getting' argument. If I want to compare sh1te with gold then I can do it with the best of them. My Mrs has got 5%, 5% and 4% in the last three years, and she works for a company which has the sort of debts that would make Deakin and Reid cry their lamps out. But it makes a profit (as do NATS) and rewards staff when they deserve it.

That said, as a rep, I officially endorse the Branch line on this...............when they're in earshot.

Oh, and another bloody thing, it's OK for those of you who have a holiday home on the Hamble, but what concerns me more is that at non-NATS units, they are catching up with Band 2 rates of pay now. Anyone for £71.5k and a low tax rate on Fraggle Rock?
Standard Noise is offline  
Old 17th May 2011, 08:22
  #2110 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Hants
Posts: 2,295
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
...I've got friends outside of aviation who are being told to take a pay cut or lose their jobs...
I know of professional footballers who are getting huge rises this year - in excess of 20 per cent. Maybe we should hold out for that sort of rise based on your argument?

Comparing company A with company B when they are in totally different lines of business is pointless and as Standard Noise says, very tiring.

What matters is NATS. The profit they are making, the dividends they are dishing out (even though it is from a seperate pot it still indicates prosperity) and the forecast for the future.

Voting 'yes' to a particular pay offer because some unskilled factory worker in Solihull is getting a pay freeze is completely ridiculous. By all means vote yes, but make sure it's for the correct reasons.
anotherthing is offline  
Old 17th May 2011, 08:48
  #2111 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Winchester.Hants.England
Posts: 406
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
PHEW !!.............Good job you explained that Rocket Science.

For one minute I thought that you were just another money grabber displaying double standards and grasping at any bung that comes you way regardless of the consequences.
I also note your high moral standards!
I am sure lots of others would have followed your example and refused the bung if PCS had not put in a clause that would suspend the agreement should they enter into a dispute over..........say pay or something like that.

You are clearly somewhat of a role model for the ATSA community.
Flybywyre is offline  
Old 17th May 2011, 19:07
  #2112 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Edinburgh
Posts: 92
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
QUOTE]Whilst I understand that negotiators must have a tough time arguing the case for the ATSA population whilst most of their membership only seem interested in who gets the next break or EG[/QUOTE]

And

So next time, as a member of PCS, you find yourself saying,, "I'm not doing that, it's not not in my job description." Perhaps you should say, " I will do that if you put it in my job description."

Wake up and save yourselves!!!
Im sorry but what World do you live in? I work at an H24 Airport with colocated Approach and Tower. When me and my colleagues are on duty, we are the only ATSA on shift, thats one person to run both upstairs and down. We work permanent nights for no extra UHP, we dont get any EG's because there is no-one to relieve us until the next shift comes in and we get two, half hour breaks per shift, in between Metars. If the weather is poor we are expected to forego our breaks in order to keep reporting the weather. If the weather is fine and I can get a break then I have to take a cordless phone with me so I can continue answering the outside line (the agreement is to hand it to a controller who is spare but of course we have no spare controllers just hanging around.)This usually means I spend about 15 minutes of my break fielding phone calls.
I am a unit investigator, completing CA4118's and CA4119's. I do APSA's. I do day 2 day observations. I am the units stats guru, providing movement and safety data to the BAA, CTC and to my GM to include in his monthly report. I audit the TOI/USI log to make sure all relevant data is correctly displayed and SRG compliant. I am the TRM focal point and later this month I will finally be getting some official training on the Simulator so I can run TRUCE exercises (I've actually been doing this for a while without the official training I asked for . ) All this whilst plugged in trying to do my job as an assistant.
Everything I have mentioned there I do voluntarily. Recently when rumours were circulating that Management were looking to re-grade the ATSA position I went to my GM and asked to have these duties added to my job description. My GM passed on the request to HQ and the reply was a flat out refusal.
Wake up and smell the coffee. Its not about additional duties it is a numbers game pure and simple.

I continue to do these tasks for my own interest and because I actually believe there is a lot of good can come out of them. I still care deeply about the industry we work in. Which brings me back towards the central focus of this forum.

This managements attachment of the string regarding Met duties to the core pay deal and in particular Prospects complicity with this is an absolute disgrace.
Both management and Prospect, via their framework agreement, only mention Metar provision. What about Speci's, you know, when there has been an operationally significant change in the weather that requires a special report? What about Snowtams? Not a mention.
If I can take people back to the 19th December 2010. The night when every major airfield South of Manchester, Glasgow, Prestwick and I believe Aberdeen were shut due to snow. I was the ATSA that night. It was me who received the call putting us on Standby to receive multiple wide body diversions. As heavy snow showers passed through the airfield ( requiring countless Speci's ) Airfield Ops worked their fingers to the bone to keep the airfield open for our own traffic and an anticipated onslaught in the morning. Whilst the controller dealt with the air traffic and a multitude of vehicles all over the airfield, I filled out 7 seperate snowtams, to make sure everyone was kept informed of the latest situation. Each one requiring getting the info from ops, filling out the Snowtam form, disseminating the snowtam by AFTN, working out the MOTNE code, working out the percentage contamination for each runway third, recording the Message for ATIS broadcast and keeping in touch with units and companies with a vested interest. Fortunately by this stage of the winter I was well practised and so managed each Snowtam in about 20-25 minutes. What chance a controller who is trying to deal with Aircraft and vehicles as well. Oh dont worry Prospect have thought about that too. The framework states that a controller can decide whether to give priority to traffic or Met reporting. Talk about Damned if you do, Damned if you dont.
Im not suggesting every nightshift will be that complex but the fact of the matter is when the weather is bad the controller needs to be concentrating on the traffic leaving others to make sure the pilots are getting the most up to date information in a quickly changing picture.
According to the NTSB approximately 22% of accidents have Met as a causal or contributory factor. That is why every accident or incident report has a met report included. God help any controller who finds themselves in the unfortunate position of a major incident where the Met being broadcast is incorrect. You can be sure that, contributory or not, there will be highly paid lawyers searching for any blame they can pass. Will the management pushing this agenda be in the dock? Yeah right.
For 20 years in this Industry my paramount thought has always been the safety of Air traffic. We've had fights over privitisation and pensions that I was disappointed to lose but what really make my blood boil is that I never could have believed that the Union could actually negotiate and recommend acceptance of a procedure that will make Air traffic service provision potentially more dangerous for the providers and users of the service.

One final point to those of you in NERL that think this is not your fight, think again. This agreement is not just for Met it is for Met and residual tasks. It was always considered that no controller should be performing any task that should distract them from the primary task of controlling. That consideration has just been negotiated away by your Union. How long until management find some residual tasks for you to perform?
Bagheera is offline  
Old 17th May 2011, 20:10
  #2113 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Not quite sure anymore
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Devil

Excellent post Bagheera. Couldn't of put it all in a nutshell any better.
pikman is offline  
Old 17th May 2011, 20:58
  #2114 (permalink)  

 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: UK
Posts: 796
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Well said Bagheera, I just wish it could have a wider audience.
Roffa is offline  
Old 17th May 2011, 21:01
  #2115 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: USA
Age: 66
Posts: 2,183
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Bagheera...excellent post.
eastern wiseguy is offline  
Old 17th May 2011, 22:22
  #2116 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: UK
Age: 57
Posts: 17
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Bagheera......thank you for an excellent post
No Speed is offline  
Old 17th May 2011, 22:45
  #2117 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Posts: 2,001
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Great post.
Many years ago I worked as an assistant at an ATC unit where ATCOs did the half-hourly met reports.
Just before I left the forward-thinking SATCO realized the situation was getting impossible, (due to missed reports as a result of handling A/C), and sent the ATSAs on MET courses, which added to the variety of their work.
Many of the current NATS 'managers' have little or no ATC experience. Also there are many arrogant, 20/30-something, children of the Thatcher generation in the system who were raised on the culture of greed. They know the cost of everything, but the value of nothing. Sad, yes, but it's the way the country is. Hardly surprising that many people simply 'can't be @rsed' anymore.
We hear a lot from management about 'Ops-Room distraction' in safety notices.
Surely having to 'do MET' is another distraction ATCOs can do without.
P.S.
Stats should be the responsibility of the aerodrome management, not ATC assistants.

Last edited by ZOOKER; 17th May 2011 at 23:03.
ZOOKER is offline  
Old 17th May 2011, 22:54
  #2118 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: The foot of Mt. Belzoni.
Posts: 2,001
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Flybywyre,
as regards congratulating Prospect for securing ATSA 3 wages for trainees working 'on the wings', don't forget that years ago they were actually paid an ATCO 4 salary for this.
I can't seem to recall howls of protest from the ATCOs union, (whatever it was called then), when this was changed.
ZOOKER is offline  
Old 18th May 2011, 06:43
  #2119 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: behind the fruit
Posts: 233
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
April RPI 5.2%

"A GOOD DEAL BETTER"
LEGAL TENDER is offline  
Old 18th May 2011, 22:50
  #2120 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Somewhere nice
Posts: 28
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes on 0 Posts
Im sorry but what World do you live in?
NERL's...Can't you tell?
Rocket_Science is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.