ProM

FDP - read what I said. The sentiment was not mine, i was portraying how I thought the media would represent DC10s views.

I accept it is not my position to suggest either way what you guys do which is why I did not state any opinion on that score and I was open and honest that I am not NATS.

Good job you don't want public support

Gonzo

So here's a question.........

The company decided to pay the money they saved by taking the 'holiday', which helped guard against the downturn in the market.

However, three years down the line the fund was looking just as bad as it is now.

What then? Would most still expect the company to up its contributions?

MrJones

ProM tell us the last time The Sun or The Daily Mirror or the Daily Mail vilified a group of workers fighting for their pension?

BEXIL160

Do we know for definite that it really looks so bad right now? I don't think so.

Mr.Barron doesn't want the company to continue paying into pension scheme even at the reduced level the company does now.

He is unwilling to support the continuance of what is an excellent scheme, not becasue it's impossible for the comapany to do so, but because it has an impact on PROFIT and the future saleability of the company.

When directly questioned "why the company had quietly become a profit making company, rather than a not for profit service", Mr. Barron replied "" . That is a direct quote.

If the company were to operate on a "not for profit" basis, and the government weren't looking to offload the remainder of the company for the biggest amount, then the company finances would look considerably different.

BEX

Geffen

How much of an increase in personal contributions would people be willing to tolerate? I was once told by a financial advisor that if asked to increase to 12% to say yes. Purely on the quality of the scheme. Should we increase contributions to help maintain the viability of the scheme, which so many rightly say is ours, or does it all have to come from the employer?

Mr Jones,

Some areas may have run dry but all I said was I didn't experience disruption to my daily routine. Unlike when the refineries were blockaded a few years ago.

The following article is an indication of how the press can construct an article to begin a backlash.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...0-000-win.html

Certainly not an attack but shows how the seeds can be placed to turn an article either way dependent on how the editor's perceive public opinion.

MrJones

Geffen How on earth is a newspaper editor going to portray workers fighting to save their pensions fund in a bad light?

Every employee in the country in a pension scheme will empathise us.

And when Michael O'Leary opens his mouth to give his opinion we will feel a huge surge of Love

Geffen

As someone else has eluded, all the poor workers who have saved for holidays etc, who can't go anywhere because we are striking. Not saying it is right but that is the sort of thing prospect will have to work hard at to put across the right message. PR being the all important weapon. Don't for a second believe that management won't be employing the same tactics against the workers.

slip and turn

As you know, I am only interested in the NATS pension case from afar - just an interested observer in the possible demise of one of the last remaining excellent schemes for 'ordinary exployees' in the private sector (well sort of).

I hope you don't mind too much me offering my two-pennorth from time to time as this is the non-private ATCO forum ...

In the interests of encouraging free debate of both sides of the argument for maintaining the scheme and promise unchanged, I have bitten my lip for some days and not typed.

But you surely can't let Beadie get away with the suggestion that the Trustees are all impartial. Two of them at least are executive board directors of some ilk! One is the Finance Director is he not?!

Now you might think they are just two votes on a whole board of trustees, but have any of you ever occupied a place on a board with voting colleagues as powerful as that? Do you think less powerful voices are easily heard and decisions reflect balanced debate corresponding to voting rights? If so, get real

Gonzo

Very easily, MrJones.

What's that you say? basic of 60k? 70k? 80k?

<cue much comparison to soldiers, nurses etc>

ASAP of 5k? Oh, but it's not really a shift payment is it, as the non-op staff get NOS of the same value....

And a quarterly payment for training?

And an hourly payment for training?

Oh, and you work 6 on 4 off?

And get 33 days leave?

You get 8 PHs a year, whether you work them or not?

<Editor scrambling for a headline....Rich ATCOs Actually Work For Less Than Half The Year!!!..........And They Want To Spoil Your Yearly Holiday!!!!>

Health insurance?

Subsidised canteen/Luncheon vouchers?

A day's overtime is £550?

Geffen

Gonzo,

Well said.

Del Prado

Gonzo, Shhhh!

You don't know who's listening.

MrJones

Gonzo you assume every NATS employee is a controller.

I am not saying we don't need some PR. We very definitely have to get our side across - Fighting to stop out pension scheme being close - but I think there has been enough outrage at pension schemes being crippled for us to do OK as far as the Press goes.

Gonzo

MrJones,

No, I don't assume that, but the ATCOs are the sector of the workforce the media will concentrate on.

Geffen

Yes the salary and AAVA are that of the dreaded band 5, but again the media WILL focus on the largest numbers. It is the way it works and there is no way that the media will turn around at look at the band 1 guys as, unfortunately, the numbers don't look as impressive. It doesn't matter to them what you are paid. All the ATCO's will be put in the same light. You never know a salary band might be mentioned. But then again doesn't NATS advertise ATCO salary over £85,000. The biggest salary is the one the media will focus on.

eastern wiseguy

It matters not a jot, The only people we need to focus on the matter in hand is NATS management.

Gonzo

Read the posts before you jump the gun, Yahoo.....I was describing the facts a newspaper article would focus on. Not my own assumptions.

throw a dyce

Gonzo,
On the other hand,
Basic isn't £60K top of the scale,not here.
Compare that to pilots.
ASAP 5K.You want to fly on hols on New Years day?
Training payments.Compared to a training captain.when we can kill 500 people?
6 on 4 off.Well it's more like 7 on 3 off.If you want to fly in the middle of the night etc.
33 days leave.Try 28
8 PH.ok we will take them on the days then. Want to fly on holiday on a Bank holiday.
Atco work for less than half the year.What about teachers,or MPs then.
Health insurance.Isn't worth the paper it's written on,in my case.
LV.Well no meal break in the roster,and security screen any food.That's if I get a chance to eat it.
OT £550.Try £230 after tax.My dentist makes that in 2 hours.

Let the papers say that.NATS couldn't afford to even contemplate industrial action.They are a very minor company,compared to the amount of money that the country would lose even for one day.Play it back to them about Barron's pay rise and Aston company van.

Caesartheboogeyman

I'm slightly confused over that last post. were you comparing it all to a pilot or just the first couple of bits. If you were explaining more about atco details, i mostly agree with you except its 28days hols unless you have been with the company 8 years then you get a couple more days, after 10? or 12? years you get another 3 making it 33 plus 8 in lieu of bank holidays. Your assessment of bank holidays and nights shifts are A1. I would happily take xmas, easter, nyd off every year. but like you say........no flying.
And the teachers/mp thing is true also. 6 weeks in the summer, 2 at easter and xmas. what a job! if it wasnt working with kids it would be a perfect job. MP's are a law unto themselves with all their benefits. make the red barron look like a pauper.

ifaxu

Why all the debate about public support? It matters not a jot other than to make members feel uncomfortable. The outcome of the strike , if it were to happen , would be decided in airline boardrooms and government meeting rooms. Maybe the average member of the public would feel some animosity towards Nats employees for a short time but most people in this country have the attention span of sparrows. Two days after the strike is over, won or lost , and they will be worrying about whatever the great british press tell them to worry about next. Focus on the real issues. Do we want to come out of this with our pensions intact or not.

ebenezer

deja vu....???

Strike Tactic Is Discounted By New Air Controller Union - New York Times