ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
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Originally Posted by baw676
You should see what is written about him in other threads as well
Originally Posted by ock1f
A very constructive post by dfc and a possible insight..........
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beamwidth,
There was never much chance of having many experienced Civil ATCO applicants for the positions even with no other provider recruiting. No experienced controller holding current multiple vaildations in the Civil world is going to want what the IAA are going to offer.
The Union is against parachuting Experienced external ATCOs into what are seen as "senior" positions which is of course what is needed along with rationalisation of the current structure and ending the single validations positions.
Never mind NATS recruiting externally, one has to wonder why over the years when the IAA was recruiting NATS attracted so many people from the Ireland (North and South) - including experienced IAA ATCOs onto it's Student intake?
Regards,
DFC
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DFC,
Thats incorrect, already here
That's bull****, what "senior" posts are these?
Why dont you tell us, you were that ATCO, weren't you? BTW your vanity is quite astounding - you were not an experienced ATCO when you left these shores for Hurn, and you certainly didn't get any experience with NATS - gotta complete the training!
No experienced controller holding current multiple vaildations in the Civil world is going to want what the IAA are going to offer
The Union is against parachuting Experienced external ATCOs into what are seen as "senior" positions which is of course what is needed along with rationalisation of the current structure and ending the single validations positions
Never mind NATS recruiting externally, one has to wonder why over the years when the IAA was recruiting NATS attracted so many people from the Ireland (North and South) - including experienced IAA ATCOs onto it's Student intake?
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What positions would these be DFC?
No controllers are going to take a backward career step just to work for the IAA unless they are despirate to live in Ireland. There has to be career progression and no union enforced glass ceiling on people who do take up the proposed positions.
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Why dont you tell us, you were that ATCO, weren't you? BTW your vanity is quite astounding - you were not an experienced ATCO when you left these shores for Hurn, and you certainly didn't get any experience with NATS - gotta complete the training!
There are people from Ireland (Republic) working as qualified ATCOs at ScOACC, MACC and LACC (AC as well as TC). In most cases they never worked for the IAA prior to Joining NATS. An ex IAA ATCO that moved across if I remember correctly bowed out before leaving the College.
Do you think that these people will seriously look at moving back? Is moving back to Ireland worth giving up a career for?
Regards,
DFC
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Dfc-First of all if you are going to qoute me on this thread dont use my words from another unrelated thread.
And judging by your personality i'd say getting invited to some seeedy wife swap thing is the probably the only chance you have of seeing some real action.
Generally when someone has really strong opinions and views on a subject they have evidence and fact to back them up. You Dfc are devoid of both.
The direct entries are in two different groups. The 3 year contract group who are free to negotiate whatever they want for 3 years and tehn thats that-bye bye or renegotiate. The second group are being offered permanent and pensionbale positions-starting on a point on the salary scale commensurate with their experience. So Joe blogs with 10 yrs will join at the 10th point on the scale. The ONLY conditions are they have to serve the same amount of time in the IAA as all other controllers do before being eligible for promotion. Which isn't that much-a couple of years or some such. So on balance i think this job will attract plenty.
There is no glass ceiling for the DE's and a normal career progression on merit grounds like everyone else. That probably makes you a bit jealous tho-people getting promoted on merit.
Are you the union or something?. Because only someone who could speak for the union and on behalf of its members could make such a statement.
If you are not on the union or even an Impact-Atc union member then you are spoofing and full of hot air and bullsh*t.
There is no parachuting of staff. And i love your idea of "senior postions". Once again you proudly demonstrate your total ignorance of the iAA and its controllers. We have a salary scale you progress along over the years until you have done your required amount of time at which if you so chose you can apply for UCE positions or watch manager or domain specilaist if you have developed some particular skill or knowledge level over the years. Or you can continue to be an ordinary honest hard working controller until you retire.
A bit like you going for an instructors job on a diesal Cessna 172 because you know all about the exact internal fuel line specifications! Or you apparently do-tho plenty of others seem to think you are making it up as you go along. But thats just me reporting what i've read on pprune-id never dream of lecturing you on diesal cessna 172's or fuel line or indeed make huge overpowering statements because i just dont know that much about them.
I have emplored you to read the posts here and absorb the info in them and each time you just continue on with your small minded ignorant idea's that just make you look like the biggest assh*le around.
Again just read what has been said by way of letting you know what the situation is. If your posts continue on and on like they have done then i can only assume that 1) you cant read 2) you cant help being an assh*le 3) youl live in some parrallel universe while working for the IAA.
Yours as ever
Ock1f
And judging by your personality i'd say getting invited to some seeedy wife swap thing is the probably the only chance you have of seeing some real action.
Generally when someone has really strong opinions and views on a subject they have evidence and fact to back them up. You Dfc are devoid of both.
The direct entries are in two different groups. The 3 year contract group who are free to negotiate whatever they want for 3 years and tehn thats that-bye bye or renegotiate. The second group are being offered permanent and pensionbale positions-starting on a point on the salary scale commensurate with their experience. So Joe blogs with 10 yrs will join at the 10th point on the scale. The ONLY conditions are they have to serve the same amount of time in the IAA as all other controllers do before being eligible for promotion. Which isn't that much-a couple of years or some such. So on balance i think this job will attract plenty.
There is no glass ceiling for the DE's and a normal career progression on merit grounds like everyone else. That probably makes you a bit jealous tho-people getting promoted on merit.
The Union is against parachuting Experienced external ATCOs into what are seen as "senior" positions which is of course what is needed along with rationalisation of the current structure and ending the single validations positions
If you are not on the union or even an Impact-Atc union member then you are spoofing and full of hot air and bullsh*t.
There is no parachuting of staff. And i love your idea of "senior postions". Once again you proudly demonstrate your total ignorance of the iAA and its controllers. We have a salary scale you progress along over the years until you have done your required amount of time at which if you so chose you can apply for UCE positions or watch manager or domain specilaist if you have developed some particular skill or knowledge level over the years. Or you can continue to be an ordinary honest hard working controller until you retire.
A bit like you going for an instructors job on a diesal Cessna 172 because you know all about the exact internal fuel line specifications! Or you apparently do-tho plenty of others seem to think you are making it up as you go along. But thats just me reporting what i've read on pprune-id never dream of lecturing you on diesal cessna 172's or fuel line or indeed make huge overpowering statements because i just dont know that much about them.
I have emplored you to read the posts here and absorb the info in them and each time you just continue on with your small minded ignorant idea's that just make you look like the biggest assh*le around.
Again just read what has been said by way of letting you know what the situation is. If your posts continue on and on like they have done then i can only assume that 1) you cant read 2) you cant help being an assh*le 3) youl live in some parrallel universe while working for the IAA.
Yours as ever
Ock1f
Last edited by ock1f; 28th Mar 2008 at 15:30.
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The ONLY conditions are they have to serve the same amount of time in the IAA as all other controllers do before being eligible for promotion.
That is not a glass ceiling, it is a Steel Roof.
There is no glass ceiling for the DE's and a normal career progression on merit grounds like everyone else
There can not be promotion on merit when you have two people - one with 5 years experience in the IAA and a basic valid ATCO and another with 20 Years ATC experience, OJTI, Specialst Role experience, etc but only 4 years in the IAA......according to your first statement the more experienced controller will not get the job because the one with less merit meets the number of years in the IAA criteria.
All you are going to get for the permanent positions are Irish Military and Regional Airport controllers - none of whom have any Area Radar experience.
A few Foreign ATCOs will apply for the 3 years contrtact - nice way to try living in Ireland and with the early retirement available in ceratin providers - a way of having a bit of cake and eating it.
It will do nothing to sort out the problems.
Has no one in the Union or the IAA ever wondered why most airlines recruit direct entry Captains and don't put them in the right seat until the current FOs have passed over to the left seat?
Regards,
DFC
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What drugs are you on?
Go back and read my post-and again i refer to my post above CAN YOU READ ?
Well can you?
Whats all this crap about needing 30 yrs of experience to be eliglibe for promotion. Again you demonstrate your ignorance! I can see how you your little brain came to that conclusion BUT IF YOU HAD READ MY POST you would know thats not the case.
The requirement is for a few years service before being allowed go for promtion or even going onto the expert grade. Nearly all the controllers in the IAA (maybe not the last class of SCP's due to the debacle of their training programme) are eligable for this and 95% are on the expert grade. Even that last class will be eligible soon too and so too will the DE's .
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU
And by the way many airlines do hire direct entry captains before the their own FO gets a chance because the FO is not yet ready or able for a command.
Do some basic homework you.
Good day-im off out with the kids to enjoy the rest of the aftrenoon and not waste it on an infantile ignorant little know it all-who actually knows diddly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
Yours as ever
Ock1f
In other words, an Area Radar controller with say Supervisor and OJTI experience plus some backgorund specialist role experience and 15 years in the job when they join the IAA will have to have 30 years ATC experience before being counted as equivalent in terms of promotion prospects as a person with experience limited to the IAA operation and 15 years experience.
That is not a glass ceiling, it is a Steel Roof
That is not a glass ceiling, it is a Steel Roof
Well can you?
Whats all this crap about needing 30 yrs of experience to be eliglibe for promotion. Again you demonstrate your ignorance! I can see how you your little brain came to that conclusion BUT IF YOU HAD READ MY POST you would know thats not the case.
The requirement is for a few years service before being allowed go for promtion or even going onto the expert grade. Nearly all the controllers in the IAA (maybe not the last class of SCP's due to the debacle of their training programme) are eligable for this and 95% are on the expert grade. Even that last class will be eligible soon too and so too will the DE's .
IS THAT CLEAR ENOUGH FOR YOU
And by the way many airlines do hire direct entry captains before the their own FO gets a chance because the FO is not yet ready or able for a command.
Do some basic homework you.
Good day-im off out with the kids to enjoy the rest of the aftrenoon and not waste it on an infantile ignorant little know it all-who actually knows diddly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!
Yours as ever
Ock1f
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And just before i go-the overtime regs are being used now . No point in not using them when they will be "official" in a short while anyway.
And dont lecture us on safety when you obviously have to brush up on that yourself according to your own aviator colleagues.
And why are you doing your best to scare any interested Atco here on enquiring about working for the IAA either contarct or permanent?
Go-explain your motives dfc boy
Yours as ever
Ock1f
And dont lecture us on safety when you obviously have to brush up on that yourself according to your own aviator colleagues.
And why are you doing your best to scare any interested Atco here on enquiring about working for the IAA either contarct or permanent?
Go-explain your motives dfc boy
Yours as ever
Ock1f
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And by the way many airlines do hire direct entry captains before the their own FO gets a chance because the FO is not yet ready or able for a command.
Do you think that an airline will recruit a Captain TRI/TRE and put them in the right seat or even put them in the left and not very quickly use their skills as a TRI/TRE?
With the right package the IAA could attract very experienced ATCOs. However, that is simply not going to happen.
You can take the IAA out of the Civil Service but you can not take the Civil Service out of the IAA.
Regards
DFC
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And why are you doing your best to scare any interested Atco here on enquiring about working for the IAA either contarct or permanent?
Some would say that I have given you the perfect opportunity to convince prospective applicants that it is worth applying for but I don't think that you can give them any good news!
The point I am making is that after all the fuss, nothing has changed and nothing much is going to change for another 12 months. The only question is will there be another "voluntary work ban" in 11 months time?
Regards,
DFC
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2 years DFC. Thats the length of time it will take a direct entry to become eligible to undertake expert functions (OJT, project work, co-ordination and so on).
Sounds more reasonable than the "you have to be with the IAA as long as everyone else that wants the position".
Still think that the whole things is not going to work and nothing will be different. Just look at the complaints regarding the German positions.
You even have Ock1f et al sniffing round the NATS proposed recruitment. Can't see anyone of them leaving though!
Regards,
DFC
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Originally Posted by DFC
Thank's Macker.
Sounds more reasonable than the "you have to be with the IAA as long as everyone else that wants the position".
Sounds more reasonable than the "you have to be with the IAA as long as everyone else that wants the position".
Surely you were aware of the conditions attached to appointment to the Expert grade, you certainly like to give the impression you are?
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Reality Check
What has actually been acheived? What has changed?
Nothing has been implemented. Its all only promises. Look at the IAA's record there.
"4 contract ATCO's comencing training by March 2008"
Anyone seen any yet?
"Call in scheme"
- anyone been paid anything?
- anyone signed up?
- anyone been asked to sign up?
And people are doing overtime now anyway. Why would the IAA bother bringing it in?
"5 and 3 roster cycle is permanent unless otherwise agreed"
As long as we work longer duties with rest periods of less than the legal minimum of 11 hours in between them.
Nothing has been implemented. Its all only promises. Look at the IAA's record there.
"4 contract ATCO's comencing training by March 2008"
Anyone seen any yet?
"Call in scheme"
- anyone been paid anything?
- anyone signed up?
- anyone been asked to sign up?
And people are doing overtime now anyway. Why would the IAA bother bringing it in?
"5 and 3 roster cycle is permanent unless otherwise agreed"
As long as we work longer duties with rest periods of less than the legal minimum of 11 hours in between them.
There's a guy in Shannon for the last month training in ops (only FDC at the moment though)
One currently training in Shannon Tower, and 2 (one is passing the time at present doing FDC) for High level course starting next month.
Roll on the other 17 !!!!
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qnhhpa,
Carefull. Don't upset the bruvers. They will be in your face quicker than a Dublin Official at Parnell Park!!!
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Macker,
The 2 year post validation requirement is standard with many providers. However, Ock1f seemd to confirm the union position that direct entries are not to be permitted to delay the career progression of current employees (even those with no experience). Which is something totally different.
Probably explains why someone says;
That would be nice - well paid retirement job doing diddly helping staff an already overstaffed position.
Nothing like the IAA to put people where they are most needed!!!
No truth in the rumour that direct entries will simply fill positions so that incumbents can be "promoted" then
A few failures from the incumbents and like I say nothing will have changed in 12 months time.
Regards,
DFC
Carefull. Don't upset the bruvers. They will be in your face quicker than a Dublin Official at Parnell Park!!!
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Macker,
The 2 year post validation requirement is standard with many providers. However, Ock1f seemd to confirm the union position that direct entries are not to be permitted to delay the career progression of current employees (even those with no experience). Which is something totally different.
Probably explains why someone says;
One currently training in Shannon Tower
Nothing like the IAA to put people where they are most needed!!!
No truth in the rumour that direct entries will simply fill positions so that incumbents can be "promoted" then
A few failures from the incumbents and like I say nothing will have changed in 12 months time.
Regards,
DFC
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DFC, I'm going to be nice to you on this post!
2 points here.
1) Said person in tower is Tower rated elsewhere, so quickest route to go live is to revalidate on a current rating, wouldn't you think?
2) The people are needed everywhere.This Tower body will free up a Multi-rated ATCO, to provide ATS with their other ratings in the busy UACC/ACC.
The Union have not decided who the IAA employ, the IAA have.
I'm not sure what promotions you mean. We have a direct progression here on the ATCO scale. Promotions to another grade are not dependant on ATCOs being brought in to replace anyone
Are there promotions coming up, and if so, where?
Kindest regards,
Your buddy
Irishatco
That would be nice - well paid retirement job doing diddly helping staff an already overstaffed position.
Nothing like the IAA to put people where they are most needed!!!
Nothing like the IAA to put people where they are most needed!!!
1) Said person in tower is Tower rated elsewhere, so quickest route to go live is to revalidate on a current rating, wouldn't you think?
2) The people are needed everywhere.This Tower body will free up a Multi-rated ATCO, to provide ATS with their other ratings in the busy UACC/ACC.
The Union have not decided who the IAA employ, the IAA have.
No truth in the rumour that direct entries will simply fill positions so that incumbents can be "promoted" then
Are there promotions coming up, and if so, where?
Kindest regards,
Your buddy
Irishatco
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Macker,
The 2 year post validation requirement is standard with many providers
The 2 year post validation requirement is standard with many providers
However, Ock1f seemd to confirm the union position that direct entries are not to be permitted to delay the career progression of current employees (even those with no experience). Which is something totally different.
Your total lack of knowledge and solid info is astounding. What makes it even more astounding is that people like Macker,Irishatco et al are doing and have done their best to educate you. You are apparently beyond education and seem destined to forever be the dumass here.
Yours as ever
Ock1f