ATC VOLUNTARY OVERTIME BAN: Dublin Flights Delayed 25th January
Join Date: Apr 2002
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O'Leary just comes across as a gob****e. 
Yer Union Rep stayed dignified and got the last word in.
O'Leary is probably jealous of you ATCOs because you have the skill and training to engage brain before opening mouth ... don't you ?
Understaffing and over-reliance on overtime is an insidious situation, but perhaps if it hadn't been accepted in the first place the problem would have been solved sooner ?
Don't IAA have some kind of regulation of controllers hours or is it unregulated mayhem?
In the UK it is written into legislation (SRATCOH - Scheme for Regulation of Air Traffic Controllers Hours). Can't remember exact details but minimum 12 hrs off between shifts. Minimum 60hrs off after 6 shifts. Overseen by the CAA Safety Regulation Group.
Fatigue due to excessive overtime was cited as the cause of this incident in Canada - where I believe overtime was also compulsory ... or very strongly pushed ... but, someone might correct me there.
Personally I think all ATCOs should work 12 hrs on, 12 hrs off, with 20 minutes total break in the day and a bucket underneath to catch the drips. Afterall we are only a glorified call centre ...
"We're sorry but Dublin ATC is not in at the moment - be assured your call is important to us and may be monitored for training purposes - if you'd like to leave your position, heading and flightlevel after the tone we'll get back to you - you're number 17 in traffic - thank you for flying Ryanair"
Good luck - stand firm
Yer Union Rep stayed dignified and got the last word in.O'Leary is probably jealous of you ATCOs because you have the skill and training to engage brain before opening mouth ... don't you ?
Understaffing and over-reliance on overtime is an insidious situation, but perhaps if it hadn't been accepted in the first place the problem would have been solved sooner ?
Don't IAA have some kind of regulation of controllers hours or is it unregulated mayhem?
In the UK it is written into legislation (SRATCOH - Scheme for Regulation of Air Traffic Controllers Hours). Can't remember exact details but minimum 12 hrs off between shifts. Minimum 60hrs off after 6 shifts. Overseen by the CAA Safety Regulation Group.
Fatigue due to excessive overtime was cited as the cause of this incident in Canada - where I believe overtime was also compulsory ... or very strongly pushed ... but, someone might correct me there.
Personally I think all ATCOs should work 12 hrs on, 12 hrs off, with 20 minutes total break in the day and a bucket underneath to catch the drips. Afterall we are only a glorified call centre ...
"We're sorry but Dublin ATC is not in at the moment - be assured your call is important to us and may be monitored for training purposes - if you'd like to leave your position, heading and flightlevel after the tone we'll get back to you - you're number 17 in traffic - thank you for flying Ryanair"
Good luck - stand firm
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to answer your question, there is not a finite number of hours that a controller can work in a year. according to our conditions of service
" controllers are conditioned to work 41 gross hours per week "
this is a throwback to the civil service days, and is equitable with most civil servants.
there isnt anything like the SRATCO in force, legally or other.
unlike the uk, where there is the caa (regulatory body) and nats (ansp), in ireland there is IAA (regulatory body) and IAA (ansp). conflict of interest???
the concept of 12hrs on, 12 hrs is not far off the mark in terms of the current work practices, all we're missing is the bucket!
the iaa wouldnt stump up for one!
thanks for your support
" controllers are conditioned to work 41 gross hours per week "
this is a throwback to the civil service days, and is equitable with most civil servants.
there isnt anything like the SRATCO in force, legally or other.
unlike the uk, where there is the caa (regulatory body) and nats (ansp), in ireland there is IAA (regulatory body) and IAA (ansp). conflict of interest???
the concept of 12hrs on, 12 hrs is not far off the mark in terms of the current work practices, all we're missing is the bucket!
the iaa wouldnt stump up for one!
thanks for your support
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DFC - Are you MO'L?
DFC,
Are you Michael O'Leary?
(a simple yes or no might satisfy even Yahweh).
Furthermore, since the abbreviation DFC usually means Distinguished Flying Cross I sincerely hope that you would have been awarded such a decoration, otherwise I suppose it might stand for Dumb Fecking
. I wont see your reply though, I am adding you to my ignore list.
Note to moderator - I realise this post might get my probationary logon cancelled but he/she is rather annoying.
Are you Michael O'Leary?
(a simple yes or no might satisfy even Yahweh).
Furthermore, since the abbreviation DFC usually means Distinguished Flying Cross I sincerely hope that you would have been awarded such a decoration, otherwise I suppose it might stand for Dumb Fecking
. I wont see your reply though, I am adding you to my ignore list.Note to moderator - I realise this post might get my probationary logon cancelled but he/she is rather annoying.
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To Irish colleagues,
To only thing that could push up your situation is next thing:
During the strike you must ask for T&C changes in your contract. Not salary . With such request you will get better public opinion( if it is problem)
With improvement in T&C you will push your HRD and others to change thing.
As I understood you don't have special regulation for working hours.
In my contract next things are very clearly stated and many of them are contained in general Aviation Law:
-Maximum working hours for qualified ATCos is 468h/during three consecutive months i.e.156h/m ( usually we work 144h/m or less)
-Supervisor/SATCO must make shift in such way to allow for radar ATCOs half an hour rest after each two hours on frequency,three hours is maximum for TWR/PROC position. This could be avoid only during night i.e. when the traffic is expected to be below 6 operation/hour.
-Minimum holiday leave per year 24 working days for just qualified ATCOs ,each three years of service give you one day more. You must use half of your leave during the particular year in a row. we also have 7(14) days recreation leave per year. Public holidays and weekends do not count for holiday leave. If shift system exists you start your holiday leave at the first day of new row,i.e. D,A,N,OFF,OFF-then holiday starts. So with good calculation it means four days more each time using holiday leave.
-Work on projects. If you are engaged in projects than your engagement must be during the working days,8 hours is count each time and you will reduce number of your operational shifts. You are not supposed for overtime.
-Minimum rest between shift is 12 hours.
-Maximum duration of shift is 12 hours.
-You are not allowed to work two shifts daily.
Changing of these rules is almost impossible because it is at the same level as DOC 4444 or similar . So since nobody is allowed ( in my country)to change Doc 4444 NO CHANGES of other rules.
Be strong and change your request.
Public wouldn't understand request for higher salary. UNFORTUNATELLY!
Best RGRDS,
The lovest paid RDR ATCO in Europe
To only thing that could push up your situation is next thing:
During the strike you must ask for T&C changes in your contract. Not salary . With such request you will get better public opinion( if it is problem)
With improvement in T&C you will push your HRD and others to change thing.
As I understood you don't have special regulation for working hours.
In my contract next things are very clearly stated and many of them are contained in general Aviation Law:
-Maximum working hours for qualified ATCos is 468h/during three consecutive months i.e.156h/m ( usually we work 144h/m or less)
-Supervisor/SATCO must make shift in such way to allow for radar ATCOs half an hour rest after each two hours on frequency,three hours is maximum for TWR/PROC position. This could be avoid only during night i.e. when the traffic is expected to be below 6 operation/hour.
-Minimum holiday leave per year 24 working days for just qualified ATCOs ,each three years of service give you one day more. You must use half of your leave during the particular year in a row. we also have 7(14) days recreation leave per year. Public holidays and weekends do not count for holiday leave. If shift system exists you start your holiday leave at the first day of new row,i.e. D,A,N,OFF,OFF-then holiday starts. So with good calculation it means four days more each time using holiday leave.
-Work on projects. If you are engaged in projects than your engagement must be during the working days,8 hours is count each time and you will reduce number of your operational shifts. You are not supposed for overtime.
-Minimum rest between shift is 12 hours.
-Maximum duration of shift is 12 hours.
-You are not allowed to work two shifts daily.
Changing of these rules is almost impossible because it is at the same level as DOC 4444 or similar . So since nobody is allowed ( in my country)to change Doc 4444 NO CHANGES of other rules.
Be strong and change your request.
Public wouldn't understand request for higher salary. UNFORTUNATELLY!
Best RGRDS,
The lovest paid RDR ATCO in Europe
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12 hours between shifts? We should be so lucky. We have one turnaround which has the grand total of 8.5 hours between shifts. Finish at 2230 and back in again at 0700.
Doesn't do much for a healthy work/life balance, does it?
Doesn't do much for a healthy work/life balance, does it?
Last edited by goodworker; 29th Feb 2008 at 11:47.
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e should be so lucky.
Tell to your management and public as well that because SAFETY OF AIR TRAFFIC you must HAVE 12 hours of break as minimum between shifts.
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Bob I think everyone on here realises that you are not trying to undermine the controllers' efforts and just asking a genuine question and basically asking what joe the public is also asking. However I would like to know as what you would do in this situation....?
Basically the controllers are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't because the IAA have let the situation get to such a ridiculous level. If they don't strike and bring this situation to the media's attention then nothing will change. If they do continue with this action, at least people will maybe see that there is a problem and the IAA will be forced into some action.....well they should be.
Before this all came to light the IAA had plans to only take 24 new trainees.....based on european average not all of these will complete the training...all of a sudden they take 36....
They have as yet not advertised in flight international for direct entries and atcos who have asked about joining as a direct entry have been answered....what renumeration would you expect?? Very professional.....and very vague.
I understand the spindoctors ploy to only focus on the salary of the said employees as people just hear this figure and disregard all after.......and when you've got Mr 'I'm getting away with murder' O'Leary spouting absolute rubbish It doesn't help.
The question is ....what do you expect them to do? Work the overtime even though an overwhelming amount have said they have had enough and are tired or stand firm and hope that eventually the truth will come out....
Basically the controllers are dammed if they do and dammed if they don't because the IAA have let the situation get to such a ridiculous level. If they don't strike and bring this situation to the media's attention then nothing will change. If they do continue with this action, at least people will maybe see that there is a problem and the IAA will be forced into some action.....well they should be.
Before this all came to light the IAA had plans to only take 24 new trainees.....based on european average not all of these will complete the training...all of a sudden they take 36....
They have as yet not advertised in flight international for direct entries and atcos who have asked about joining as a direct entry have been answered....what renumeration would you expect?? Very professional.....and very vague.
I understand the spindoctors ploy to only focus on the salary of the said employees as people just hear this figure and disregard all after.......and when you've got Mr 'I'm getting away with murder' O'Leary spouting absolute rubbish It doesn't help.
The question is ....what do you expect them to do? Work the overtime even though an overwhelming amount have said they have had enough and are tired or stand firm and hope that eventually the truth will come out....
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media-why worry?
Folks,
The issue of whether ATCOs are getting a fair or impartial repesentation in the media is irrelevant!
The media or the public are not going to solve this issue.
Getting the point of view of staff into the media is also irrelevant.
What O'Leary says in the media is Irrelevant.
The only things that will affect a solution to this issue are:
1. Pressure on the IAA from AIRLINES.
2. Political pressure on IAA management.
AND,
3. Pressure from STAFF.
All other comments and commentators won't influence the outcome. Even whatever happens in the Labour Court on Monday is not binding.
This is the reality of the situation!
When O'Leary gets tired of his ranting, you can bet your "overtime wages" that he will be putting even more pressure on the IAA privately on behalf of his Money Making airline.
And that's all that matters to him.
Forget about the media. This will be sorted out by he people most closely effected.
Keep it up!
The issue of whether ATCOs are getting a fair or impartial repesentation in the media is irrelevant!
The media or the public are not going to solve this issue.
Getting the point of view of staff into the media is also irrelevant.
What O'Leary says in the media is Irrelevant.
The only things that will affect a solution to this issue are:
1. Pressure on the IAA from AIRLINES.
2. Political pressure on IAA management.
AND,
3. Pressure from STAFF.
All other comments and commentators won't influence the outcome. Even whatever happens in the Labour Court on Monday is not binding.
This is the reality of the situation!
When O'Leary gets tired of his ranting, you can bet your "overtime wages" that he will be putting even more pressure on the IAA privately on behalf of his Money Making airline.
And that's all that matters to him.
Forget about the media. This will be sorted out by he people most closely effected.
Keep it up!
Join Date: May 2006
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BAW 676 WHILE ITS ACCEPTED THAT MONEY ISN'T PART OF THIS AND I UNDERSTAND YOUR DECISION TO EDIT YOUR POST THAT CONTAINED OUR SALARY SCALES.
HOWEVER THE OFFICIAL SALARY GUIDE JUST PROVES HOW WRONG mol IS. IT SHOWS HIM UP TO BE A LYING EGOTISTICAL HOT AIR BALLOON WHO WILL SAY ANYTHING TO ANYBODY EVEN WHEN HE KNOWS HE IS WRONG.
SO I SAY PUT BACK UP OUR SALARY SCALES AND EXPOSE THE IDIOTS LIES.
OCK1F
PS THE CAPS LOCK WAS ON I COULDNT BE BOTHERED GOING BACK AND CHANGING IT.
HOWEVER THE OFFICIAL SALARY GUIDE JUST PROVES HOW WRONG mol IS. IT SHOWS HIM UP TO BE A LYING EGOTISTICAL HOT AIR BALLOON WHO WILL SAY ANYTHING TO ANYBODY EVEN WHEN HE KNOWS HE IS WRONG.
SO I SAY PUT BACK UP OUR SALARY SCALES AND EXPOSE THE IDIOTS LIES.
OCK1F
PS THE CAPS LOCK WAS ON I COULDNT BE BOTHERED GOING BACK AND CHANGING IT.
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Pleasure is..........
I think it would be naieve of us all to assume that management at board level had no master plan from the onset.However they would appear to have underestimated the complete stupidity of their negotiating team.Indeed I would almost say for certain that they never envisaged that the staff they have ridden for so long would unite en-masse and give them a taste of their own medicine.I never thought that I would ever derive any kind of plesasure from riding Mr LK et al but now that I have,I shall look forward to the next time
.
.
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Looks like we are not the only one..Heathrow too
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0123/heathrow.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0122/dublinairport.html
Oh yeah Ryanair dont/aren't allowed fly there are they.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0123/heathrow.html
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0122/dublinairport.html
Oh yeah Ryanair dont/aren't allowed fly there are they.
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Why you dont want fatigued controllers.
Well done to those involved by the way-good save
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0919/air.html
Pilots warned after runway approach error
Pilots flying into Dublin Airport have been warned about the risk of mistaking rooftop lights for an approach to a runway.
The warning came after an incident last month in which a flight from Lisbon on approach to the airport's alternative runway just before midnight began to deviate course and continued to descend without proper visual identification.
On instruction from Air Traffic Control, the plane ascended and later landed without further incident.
The Air Accident Investigation Unit found that flight FLT344E had mistaken the roof lighting of a 16-storey building at Santry Cross for the red and white lights of a runway approach system.
The warning to pilots was part of interim safety recommendations from the AAIU (read the report here) to the Irish Aviation Authority on the incident, which is still being investigated.
The investigators also asked the IAA to review the suitability of what it called 'obstacle lighting' on the 52-metre high building.
Speaking on RTÉ Radio's Morning Ireland, aviation journalist Gerry Byrne said the tone of the AAIU's report demonstrated the potential danger of what was called a 'serious incident'.
'They normally use very measured language in these reports and the use of the word serious implies that a disaster could have happened if this had not been corrected,' Mr Byrne said
Are they still going to play poker with the flying public by insisting we worked tired, fatigued and overworked just to save a few quid and to make O leary a bit richer? NO Way
yours as ever
OCK1F
Well done to those involved by the way-good save
http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0919/air.html
Pilots warned after runway approach error
Pilots flying into Dublin Airport have been warned about the risk of mistaking rooftop lights for an approach to a runway.
The warning came after an incident last month in which a flight from Lisbon on approach to the airport's alternative runway just before midnight began to deviate course and continued to descend without proper visual identification.
On instruction from Air Traffic Control, the plane ascended and later landed without further incident.
The Air Accident Investigation Unit found that flight FLT344E had mistaken the roof lighting of a 16-storey building at Santry Cross for the red and white lights of a runway approach system.
The warning to pilots was part of interim safety recommendations from the AAIU (read the report here) to the Irish Aviation Authority on the incident, which is still being investigated.
The investigators also asked the IAA to review the suitability of what it called 'obstacle lighting' on the 52-metre high building.
Speaking on RTÉ Radio's Morning Ireland, aviation journalist Gerry Byrne said the tone of the AAIU's report demonstrated the potential danger of what was called a 'serious incident'.
'They normally use very measured language in these reports and the use of the word serious implies that a disaster could have happened if this had not been corrected,' Mr Byrne said
Are they still going to play poker with the flying public by insisting we worked tired, fatigued and overworked just to save a few quid and to make O leary a bit richer? NO Way
yours as ever
OCK1F
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Brennan conspiracy
I dont think management were in any way prepared for this type of action from the staff side, we caught them completely unawares. The bitterness and rawness of thier initial press releases indicate complete chaos and lack of preparedness. If EB was trying to goad us into a strike for whatever Machiavellian reasons they would have been much slicker.
I would not rule that out as a long term objective of stalling the pay process as any strike could then be blamed squarely on us wanting money.
They haven't a clue how to deal with us refusing to do overtime!! It is possibly the finest tactic we could have ever used and I salute the geniuses that came up with the notion.
Again, I salute everyone for sticking together and burying the old rivalries, with that kind of determination we'll bury mangement.
I really and truly hope that IMPACT bollock management in the Labour court for divulging what Liam Kavanagh called "sensitive Industrial Relations issues" in a letter to a customer while negotiations were ongoing. It showed a complete lack of respect for the staff and the LRC. Dont let them away with that please lads.
I wonder did ANY OTHER airline CEO get a letter from the IAA divulging "sensitive Industrial Relations issues" or is that just further proof of Ryanairs favorite son status with the IAA
No conflict of interest me A**E
P.S.
Still waiting for a hard copy of that staff notice mentioned earlier, know what the number is now though
I would not rule that out as a long term objective of stalling the pay process as any strike could then be blamed squarely on us wanting money.
They haven't a clue how to deal with us refusing to do overtime!! It is possibly the finest tactic we could have ever used and I salute the geniuses that came up with the notion.
Again, I salute everyone for sticking together and burying the old rivalries, with that kind of determination we'll bury mangement.
I really and truly hope that IMPACT bollock management in the Labour court for divulging what Liam Kavanagh called "sensitive Industrial Relations issues" in a letter to a customer while negotiations were ongoing. It showed a complete lack of respect for the staff and the LRC. Dont let them away with that please lads.
I wonder did ANY OTHER airline CEO get a letter from the IAA divulging "sensitive Industrial Relations issues" or is that just further proof of Ryanairs favorite son status with the IAA
No conflict of interest me A**E
P.S.
Still waiting for a hard copy of that staff notice mentioned earlier, know what the number is now though
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ATC for beginners and the unitiated!
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0425/57l...40624,null,209
Some funny points and some unusual comments from Pat Ryan Dir of Operations! Especially when he says that safety is the over-riding consideration is safety!
OCK1F
http://www.rte.ie/news/2005/0425/57l...40624,null,209
Some funny points and some unusual comments from Pat Ryan Dir of Operations! Especially when he says that safety is the over-riding consideration is safety!
OCK1F
Last edited by ock1f; 27th Feb 2008 at 21:21.
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God bless RTE archive!
From the 17th of Jan 2008 - just over a month ago but it seems a lifetime.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0117/new...26781,null,209
(sorry its the same link as the one below so just click on the Ingrid Miley report at the side)
Thats it in a nutshell for any one who is interested. Should we pay RTE to broadcast that as an AD?
From the 17th of Jan 2008 - just over a month ago but it seems a lifetime.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0117/new...26781,null,209
(sorry its the same link as the one below so just click on the Ingrid Miley report at the side)
Thats it in a nutshell for any one who is interested. Should we pay RTE to broadcast that as an AD?
Last edited by ock1f; 21st Feb 2008 at 22:06. Reason: wrong link given
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Also from the 17th of January-pay attention especially to the first two comments.
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0117/new...26781,null,209
Yours as ever
OCK1F
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/0117/new...26781,null,209
Yours as ever
OCK1F
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I see according to breakingnews.ie that Minister Dempsey is considering bringing in a no strike clause for essential services. So much for democracy and the right to protest
. Who'll control the aircraft during our incarceration 
. Am looking forward to the political visits during the local elections.
. Who'll control the aircraft during our incarceration . Am looking forward to the political visits during the local elections.
Last edited by Handover; 21st Feb 2008 at 22:21.
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no strike clause
Thats no problem look at the damage we can cause by not being on strike
Unless Dempsey brings in a compulsory overtime, no work to rule and no reapplying for expert assignment clause, we'll cause trouble
look at the damage we can cause by not being on strikeUnless Dempsey brings in a compulsory overtime, no work to rule and no reapplying for expert assignment clause, we'll cause trouble