TC Willy Waving Thread :-)
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From: swanwick carp lake
If ss and KK are more difficult than LL, howcome trainees are now allowed more hours to reach validation standard on LL than they were previously??
As an aside, I have heard it talked about in the coffee lounge and have to say I agree, that people should get paid more for doing day shifts and therefore being exposed to heavier traffic levels than those who do nights.
what do you lot think?
As an aside, I have heard it talked about in the coffee lounge and have to say I agree, that people should get paid more for doing day shifts and therefore being exposed to heavier traffic levels than those who do nights.
what do you lot think?
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From: Hants
splitduty wrote -
1) They involve a different type of controlling and require a different mindset -
I have never been valid on either at TC, but have been in the business a long time at more than one unit - any ATCO worth his or her salt should be able to recognise and accept that different disciplines (app/area) and even more so, different sectors (north/south or cap/mids etc) require different techniques.
Techniques that in some cases, some people cannot come to terms with.
2) People who have failed at LL APP who then go on to validate at another APP sector in the room have, by then, had the benefit of receiving a heck of a lot more training/instruction than normal.
Would they have validated at the other App sectors if they had not had the benefit of extended training (and extended exposure to real, not simulated traffic)?
It's a question that cannot be answered with one hundred percent certainty, but no one can deny that extra time training, regardless if on the same or a different sector can only be beneficial and will surely help 'weaker' trainees.
Either that or the whole ethos of the training system vis a vis granting extra hours to see if a trainee can get over a particular hurdle is flawed.
Therefore, viaEGLL, splitduties point is somewhat flawed!
No one is denying LL APP is intense, however, the 'little' airports (the ones that operate mixed mode day in day out to a single runway as it were) are not the sleepy hollows that I'mnotanERIC implies.
So-all you people who have never validated, or were unable to validate on LL radar, pontificate as to how easy it is! Look around the TC ops room and explain why all the other app sectors are full of people who didn`t make the grade at LL-------BUT----- now operate quite succeessfully on these so called busier and more complicated sectors. Don`t make me laugh
I have never been valid on either at TC, but have been in the business a long time at more than one unit - any ATCO worth his or her salt should be able to recognise and accept that different disciplines (app/area) and even more so, different sectors (north/south or cap/mids etc) require different techniques.
Techniques that in some cases, some people cannot come to terms with.
2) People who have failed at LL APP who then go on to validate at another APP sector in the room have, by then, had the benefit of receiving a heck of a lot more training/instruction than normal.
Would they have validated at the other App sectors if they had not had the benefit of extended training (and extended exposure to real, not simulated traffic)?
It's a question that cannot be answered with one hundred percent certainty, but no one can deny that extra time training, regardless if on the same or a different sector can only be beneficial and will surely help 'weaker' trainees.
Either that or the whole ethos of the training system vis a vis granting extra hours to see if a trainee can get over a particular hurdle is flawed.
Therefore, viaEGLL, splitduties point is somewhat flawed!
No one is denying LL APP is intense, however, the 'little' airports (the ones that operate mixed mode day in day out to a single runway as it were) are not the sleepy hollows that I'mnotanERIC implies.
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: Dubai
Anotherthing- I have been at both as i said before !!!! Single rwy sleepy hollow and LL 
Extra hours are now being given on LL due more special flight nearly all day everyday i.e . more consolidation time.The idea that people have different skills and thinking maybe correct for tower - radar but the basic working of KK/LL approach are the same but the workloading and capacity levels are totally different.
[QUOTE]2) People who have failed at LL APP who then go on to validate at another APP sector in the room have, by then, had the benefit of receiving a heck of a lot more training/instruction than normal.[QUOTE]
Yes, but they have also been working at a greater capacity therefore when training on KK/SS/GW it will be easier because it is less demanding
So why don't you bring your wealth of experience and have a go at LL you never know you may just validate
Extra hours are now being given on LL due more special flight nearly all day everyday i.e . more consolidation time.The idea that people have different skills and thinking maybe correct for tower - radar but the basic working of KK/LL approach are the same but the workloading and capacity levels are totally different.
[QUOTE]2) People who have failed at LL APP who then go on to validate at another APP sector in the room have, by then, had the benefit of receiving a heck of a lot more training/instruction than normal.[QUOTE]
Yes, but they have also been working at a greater capacity therefore when training on KK/SS/GW it will be easier because it is less demanding
So why don't you bring your wealth of experience and have a go at LL you never know you may just validate
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From: Hants
I'mnotanERIC, and viaEGLL
WRT extra hours - it has been identified at TC that there is an increasing incidence of trainees on certain sectors reaching level 5/6 then getting chopped (nothing to do with more 'special flights' viaEGLL, that is one factor amongst many - see below). The extra hours have been added at these stages on these sectors to see if it will help. It is probably a stop gap solution for the moment - The UTP has not kept up with the increase in traffic/complexity at TC (or I dare say any other unit) and needs revising.
The extra hours you mention are just one 'solution'. There has also been a lot of meetings/memos regarding tightening up report writing and differentiating the roles of instructors and assessors - hopefully this will mean that problems are identified earlier in the training process and extra hours (via remedial training) can be allocated at the appropriate time to allow instructors and trainees to iron out things, before progressing to the next level.
Day spinning bonuses(!)
People doing day spins effectively get an extra day off - the sleep day for night people. They receive UHP along with everyone else - quite a healthy payment.
If rostering is done correctly(!), day spins and night duties should be spread around... Yes, in the summer day spinners work their socks off, but in the winter they get a lot of 'early go's(sp)'.
An early go on a night duty is obviously not an option! At TC we have 'long sleeps' you might get one on one of your nights - it's about 5 and a half hours, thats if you can get to sleep on the 'beds' in the stuffy rooms (a problem many people have) - most people end up getting around 2 hours decent sleep a night... this does tend to make you more tired on your days off - certainly affecting the quality of your first couple of days off.
Night duties do not benefit from enhanced relief either, therefore although quieter, you do not get as many breaks etc. On a night duty you are left more to your own devices with less back up than daytime.
If you read what DTY/LAKES writes in your thread, he/she considers the traffic loading to be fairly high.
All in all, it probably balances out - asking for more money for doing your job during the day is just wishful thinking!
edited to reply to viaegll re extra hours - postings crossed
WRT extra hours - it has been identified at TC that there is an increasing incidence of trainees on certain sectors reaching level 5/6 then getting chopped (nothing to do with more 'special flights' viaEGLL, that is one factor amongst many - see below). The extra hours have been added at these stages on these sectors to see if it will help. It is probably a stop gap solution for the moment - The UTP has not kept up with the increase in traffic/complexity at TC (or I dare say any other unit) and needs revising.
The extra hours you mention are just one 'solution'. There has also been a lot of meetings/memos regarding tightening up report writing and differentiating the roles of instructors and assessors - hopefully this will mean that problems are identified earlier in the training process and extra hours (via remedial training) can be allocated at the appropriate time to allow instructors and trainees to iron out things, before progressing to the next level.
Day spinning bonuses(!)
People doing day spins effectively get an extra day off - the sleep day for night people. They receive UHP along with everyone else - quite a healthy payment.
If rostering is done correctly(!), day spins and night duties should be spread around... Yes, in the summer day spinners work their socks off, but in the winter they get a lot of 'early go's(sp)'.
An early go on a night duty is obviously not an option! At TC we have 'long sleeps' you might get one on one of your nights - it's about 5 and a half hours, thats if you can get to sleep on the 'beds' in the stuffy rooms (a problem many people have) - most people end up getting around 2 hours decent sleep a night... this does tend to make you more tired on your days off - certainly affecting the quality of your first couple of days off.
Night duties do not benefit from enhanced relief either, therefore although quieter, you do not get as many breaks etc. On a night duty you are left more to your own devices with less back up than daytime.
If you read what DTY/LAKES writes in your thread, he/she considers the traffic loading to be fairly high.
All in all, it probably balances out - asking for more money for doing your job during the day is just wishful thinking!
edited to reply to viaegll re extra hours - postings crossed
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From: Hants
ViaEGLL wrote
Nice to see how you view other airports in the London TMA!! (The same airports that over the past few years have shown a significant increase in traffic levels both in their own right and compared to EGLL)
In my posts on this thread (from before it was split) I have never intimated that LL was less demanding than the other airports. I have stated that IMO from one aspect - the vectoring, it is less complex. You follow a standard track, the variable being the wind of the day. This is more regimented than the other airports. (I also stated that when something happens to upset that flow, bedlam ensues because of the other problems associated with your task).
The reason it is more regimented is because of all the other aspects of LL that make it more demanding (lack of airspace, number of A/C etc)..... It's the only efficient way LL APP can operate. It's some (sometimes all) of these aspects some trainees cannot get their heads around.
Unfortunately, some people (including ATCOs amazingly) cannot get their head around the fact that what makes an ATCOs job difficult and demanding is a combination of things - airspace restrictions, frequency restrictions, Number of A/C, Variation of types of A/C, Runways available etc.
Or are you trying to tell us that in all aspects of ATC, within the APP community, LL APP comes out as the most demanding in every variable?
Anotherthing- I have been at both as i said before !!!! Single rwy sleepy hollow and LL
In my posts on this thread (from before it was split) I have never intimated that LL was less demanding than the other airports. I have stated that IMO from one aspect - the vectoring, it is less complex. You follow a standard track, the variable being the wind of the day. This is more regimented than the other airports. (I also stated that when something happens to upset that flow, bedlam ensues because of the other problems associated with your task).
The reason it is more regimented is because of all the other aspects of LL that make it more demanding (lack of airspace, number of A/C etc)..... It's the only efficient way LL APP can operate. It's some (sometimes all) of these aspects some trainees cannot get their heads around.
Unfortunately, some people (including ATCOs amazingly) cannot get their head around the fact that what makes an ATCOs job difficult and demanding is a combination of things - airspace restrictions, frequency restrictions, Number of A/C, Variation of types of A/C, Runways available etc.
Or are you trying to tell us that in all aspects of ATC, within the APP community, LL APP comes out as the most demanding in every variable?
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From: uk
anotherthing----
your last post displays your lack of understanding of the LL task. One of the main reasons people fail at LL is precisely because aircraft do NOT simply follow the same tracks. Trainees have to be able to demonstrate very quick and flexible vectoring to keep the whole show moving. Ask a TMA controller if LL use all of the RVAs ,or always leave the stacks on precisely the same headings? Another thing for you to ponder------some ATCO`s came back to LL after failing 1st time round, (having subsequently validated at your more `complex` sectors)-- and guess what? They failed again!
your last post displays your lack of understanding of the LL task. One of the main reasons people fail at LL is precisely because aircraft do NOT simply follow the same tracks. Trainees have to be able to demonstrate very quick and flexible vectoring to keep the whole show moving. Ask a TMA controller if LL use all of the RVAs ,or always leave the stacks on precisely the same headings? Another thing for you to ponder------some ATCO`s came back to LL after failing 1st time round, (having subsequently validated at your more `complex` sectors)-- and guess what? They failed again!
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From: Dubai
That was a qoute "Sleepy hollow"!!!
As you say you have lots of experience in in ATC and so do i, so this is my view having done busy single rwy ops and LL radar .Having not done either yourself perhaps you should not be such a know it all!!
I would not pass comment on TMA or Enroute because i have no experience of them, which is why your arguement is flawed.
I think SPLITDUTY has summed you up
Now straight to bed with no milk
As you say you have lots of experience in in ATC and so do i, so this is my view having done busy single rwy ops and LL radar .Having not done either yourself perhaps you should not be such a know it all!!
I would not pass comment on TMA or Enroute because i have no experience of them, which is why your arguement is flawed.
I think SPLITDUTY has summed you up
Now straight to bed with no milk
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From: Hants
It's true... you guys really do think you are the best. No point arguing with closed minds.
Via EGLL - I am not saying I have done neither (because I have done similar) - I said I had not done them at TC!
Let's put this thread to bed - as it is going round in circles!
Via EGLL - I am not saying I have done neither (because I have done similar) - I said I had not done them at TC!
Let's put this thread to bed - as it is going round in circles!
Must be embarrassing come their annual medical
I say there boy
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From: Somewhere
It's revealing to look at the post-TVC pass rate for ab initios. It's almost unheard of to fail when training is started on SS, KK or Thames APC.
The ab initio pass rate on LL APC must be less than 70% on recent form. Of course those failures usually go on to validate on SS, KK or Thames.
So this would suggest that LL is harder, despite how complex that bit of airspace around BKY is, and how Thames does battle with only two levels, a tiny RMA and RT-blocking eedjits who think it's a LARS.
The ab initio pass rate on LL APC must be less than 70% on recent form. Of course those failures usually go on to validate on SS, KK or Thames.
So this would suggest that LL is harder, despite how complex that bit of airspace around BKY is, and how Thames does battle with only two levels, a tiny RMA and RT-blocking eedjits who think it's a LARS.
all money.
