TC Willy Waving Thread :-)
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i run out of fingers and toes to count the amount of times in a day i walk past SS and GW, especially GW and they dont even have their headsets on.
band 5 my a**e.
kk balls out in the night, more a**e. as stated we work the inbounds to all of these whilst bandboxing 2 sectors, eg south and cap or south and east or north and midlands or cap.
i will always remember a visiting pilot in the ops room who plugged in with gatwick and then came to plug in with the TMA, 'do you get paid the same' she asks??? to her astonishment we did and do. and thats an outsiders opinion.
when will we see KK banboxed with something else??? never. its only one inbound every ten minutes.. youre just having chip on shoulder issues as you cant sleep like the other approach guys all night, and then go to bed for more sleep.
band 5 my a**e.
kk balls out in the night, more a**e. as stated we work the inbounds to all of these whilst bandboxing 2 sectors, eg south and cap or south and east or north and midlands or cap.
i will always remember a visiting pilot in the ops room who plugged in with gatwick and then came to plug in with the TMA, 'do you get paid the same' she asks??? to her astonishment we did and do. and thats an outsiders opinion.
when will we see KK banboxed with something else??? never. its only one inbound every ten minutes.. youre just having chip on shoulder issues as you cant sleep like the other approach guys all night, and then go to bed for more sleep.
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Wizad,
So what you're saying is that GW,SS and Thames should be Band 2.Perhaps KK could be Band 3.This is on work load and ratings used.Can't see the union agreeing to that,especially if it means paying lower band units their true worth.
The argument about multi validations at TC doesn't work,because lower band units don't get anything extra for that either.. That includes using multi ratings.
What's TRM? Haven't seen that either.
So what you're saying is that GW,SS and Thames should be Band 2.Perhaps KK could be Band 3.This is on work load and ratings used.Can't see the union agreeing to that,especially if it means paying lower band units their true worth.
The argument about multi validations at TC doesn't work,because lower band units don't get anything extra for that either.. That includes using multi ratings.What's TRM? Haven't seen that either.
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If you chaps are going to make suggestions about which TC approach validation should be what band you should at least get your facts right about which ones are busier than the others.
again.
again.
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M-A-C
Unfortunately, you will have noticed by now that some ATCOs do not understand that the overall task loading (for want of a better phrase) is a combination of level of traffic/complexity/local operating procedures/local airspace restrictions etc etc...
Some ATCOs like to believe that because they have a complex piece of airspace, they are working harder with only one or two A/C at a time, whereas others believe think that because they have lots of A/C (even if in very simple airspace) that they are working harder. (Not talking specific sectors here, just stating what some people believe).
If only 'task loading' was as simple to work out!
Unfortunately, you will have noticed by now that some ATCOs do not understand that the overall task loading (for want of a better phrase) is a combination of level of traffic/complexity/local operating procedures/local airspace restrictions etc etc...
Some ATCOs like to believe that because they have a complex piece of airspace, they are working harder with only one or two A/C at a time, whereas others believe think that because they have lots of A/C (even if in very simple airspace) that they are working harder. (Not talking specific sectors here, just stating what some people believe).
If only 'task loading' was as simple to work out!
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Busier doesn't necessarily mean more complex, though sometimes it may.
I was thinking primarily of tad suggesting SS Band 2 and KK Band 3 when, to give it its proper title, Essex is actually busier and more complex than KK yet anecdotaly it would appear to be not thought so.
Anyway, what will everyone say when KK, SS, GW et al end up as Band 6 after the next pay round as they're part of the south coast mega-centre?
I was thinking primarily of tad suggesting SS Band 2 and KK Band 3 when, to give it its proper title, Essex is actually busier and more complex than KK yet anecdotaly it would appear to be not thought so.
Anyway, what will everyone say when KK, SS, GW et al end up as Band 6 after the next pay round as they're part of the south coast mega-centre?
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ATCOs really know how to alienate and fight amongst themselves don't they!!?!? Management will be reading this and watching us divide ourselves.
Priceless.
It doesn't matter how many validations people have, they are still at work for the same amount of time.
Priceless.
It doesn't matter how many validations people have, they are still at work for the same amount of time.
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Too Much
Been perusing some of the “hardships” and tremendous sacrifices and long suffering disclosures in this and other threads on the ATC site, in recent and archival files and my only conclusion can be…………….what a load of nob!!!!!!
My girlies, especially this anodyne Tupperware club soiling their sanitary pads about salary bands, working conditions, airspace design and management ineptitude……. you have little or nothing to bleat about. Your Management is supportive, strict yes, but supportive, your environment is professionally conducive to the execution of your duties and your salary for the traffic levels you work is pretty damn good. Who gets what for what and who gets to sleep on night shift?..........really?!?.........
Hate to break it to you, but most of you new millennium, moisturizing, eye-brow plucking generation of ATC’s need to recognize that you supply a service in a supportive and automated ATM system that can still accommodate a much larger level of traffic that you are currently handling. I know the environment and a number of you and aside from that, you girls are not that good………
There are essentially three types or levels of ATC’s in the world. The first are the “lifers” – these are those that in a begrudging demeanour dutifully do their job and go home and concurrently watch and monitor every aspect of their job, constantly seeking any loophole or crack in management or procedure that can possibly be manipulated to their advantage or uphold their self proclaimed status of martyrdom. These are the types that either are forced to work by government decree or are in subservience to their own inability to manage their financial affairs and are constantly being chased after by their creditors. These are also the type that are fairly vocal and often expel a lot of hot air constantly using the word “I” and “me”. This group is also prone to be easily goaded into on-the-air conflicts with pilots, sometimes even igniting it through their own brand sarcasm or what is perceived by them as their higher level of integrity ….in other words, everybody else to them are a bunch of idiots. Increased traffic levels easily frustrate these types and often find themselves before boards of inquiry etc, etc………I suspect a number of you ladies fall into this group.
Then there are the “competent or good” ATC’s. These are the types that are able to self-motivate and prone to taking on extra tasks with a view to self-improvement through either promotion or the various incentive schemes offered at many ATSU’s. These types very seldom start to lactate at the first sign of adversity, preferring to proffer the level of service as seamless at their ATSU and able to maintain focus on the inevitable fact that in any environment, nothing ever runs smoothly all the time and this is when the character of the individual is revealed. This is the type that will not book off sick when looking out of the window at home and seeing bad weather looming or develop an ailment when the radar is withdrawn from service for maintenance etc, etc. This is the type that will be comfortable with increased levels of traffic, even in an environment with a degraded service provision, always the professional and more than likely future management candidates will come from the pool of these types of ATC’s. This is where probably the bulk of ATC’s around the world would fall into. This is also the type of ATC’s that are normally very marketable around the world.
Then there is the “natural” type. This is a type that is extremely scarce and currently there are probably only about seven or eight in the world. These are types that have worked in just about every environment you can think of. Those environments comprise inter alia, without radar, with only primary radar, with SSR in a desperately over-crowded airspace with little or no hope of airspace restructure, and a truly apathetic management structure. They have also at some stage in their life worked every type of discipline available to ATC’s around the world. This is the type that will without batting an eye-lid work 8 – 10 hours un-aided, not because they want to, but because they have no choice, the difference with this group is that they will rarely if ever complain about it or even make it a subject of discussion, and when it is brought up they will more than likely play it down. In point of fact, this is the type of ATC who invariably actually gets better the busier they are, it is almost like a drug to them. The higher the traffic levels and the more crushing the impending load of traffic the bigger the ‘fix’ for them. This is also the type that is extremely calm under extreme duress, maintaining a monotone irrespective of traffic levels and are constantly about three to four moves ahead not just of the traffic on their screens but also their colleagues in adjacent FIR’s/Positions, constantly thinking about possible misinterpretations or errors and are already resolving them long before they happen, if they ever happen. They use the absolute bare minimum of standard ICAO RTF. These are normally fast talking, fast thinking individuals who actually love their work, seeing it as the best damn job available to mankind. In contrast to their incredible skills at work, you will in all likelihood find these individuals to be humble, reserved and soft spoken outside of the workplace, almost to the point of being self deprecating. They know they are extremely talented and see no point in verbalising it. The ones that I am acquainted with will actually attempt to divert favourable attention to someone else when it is placed on them. These are the types that have truly seen and experienced the highs and lows of ATC and have instinctively drawn on it to strengthen their skills. I will almost go as far to say that even though training can develop and diversify an ATC’s skills, to be a ‘natural’ is something that I have only witnessed to manifest itself from within the character of the individual, something that sets this individual apart from his/her colleagues from the get-go…….i.e…..something that I have not witnessed to be trainable.
As I stated earlier, I only know of about seven or eight in the world and none of them are in the UK or its immediate environs. I am fortunate enough to be acquainted with four of them, either by work experience or from various conferences or simply just watching them work. There are two at Denver TRACON (really impressive individuals), one at Hong Kong Terminal Radar, one at Doha Approach Radar……..these are the individuals I am acquainted with. From discussion groups and friends I understand there is one at Copenhagen Approach Radar, one at Johannesburg Approach Radar and one or two at one of the Australian En-Route Centres.
My advice to you girls is first…….shut-up, second, invest a little in your profession and go and visit one of these centres and see first hand what high traffic levels are, secondly and if you are allowed, plug in next to one of these individuals………lets see you wave your willy (given that you have one to start with) after that!!
My girlies, especially this anodyne Tupperware club soiling their sanitary pads about salary bands, working conditions, airspace design and management ineptitude……. you have little or nothing to bleat about. Your Management is supportive, strict yes, but supportive, your environment is professionally conducive to the execution of your duties and your salary for the traffic levels you work is pretty damn good. Who gets what for what and who gets to sleep on night shift?..........really?!?.........
Hate to break it to you, but most of you new millennium, moisturizing, eye-brow plucking generation of ATC’s need to recognize that you supply a service in a supportive and automated ATM system that can still accommodate a much larger level of traffic that you are currently handling. I know the environment and a number of you and aside from that, you girls are not that good………
There are essentially three types or levels of ATC’s in the world. The first are the “lifers” – these are those that in a begrudging demeanour dutifully do their job and go home and concurrently watch and monitor every aspect of their job, constantly seeking any loophole or crack in management or procedure that can possibly be manipulated to their advantage or uphold their self proclaimed status of martyrdom. These are the types that either are forced to work by government decree or are in subservience to their own inability to manage their financial affairs and are constantly being chased after by their creditors. These are also the type that are fairly vocal and often expel a lot of hot air constantly using the word “I” and “me”. This group is also prone to be easily goaded into on-the-air conflicts with pilots, sometimes even igniting it through their own brand sarcasm or what is perceived by them as their higher level of integrity ….in other words, everybody else to them are a bunch of idiots. Increased traffic levels easily frustrate these types and often find themselves before boards of inquiry etc, etc………I suspect a number of you ladies fall into this group.
Then there are the “competent or good” ATC’s. These are the types that are able to self-motivate and prone to taking on extra tasks with a view to self-improvement through either promotion or the various incentive schemes offered at many ATSU’s. These types very seldom start to lactate at the first sign of adversity, preferring to proffer the level of service as seamless at their ATSU and able to maintain focus on the inevitable fact that in any environment, nothing ever runs smoothly all the time and this is when the character of the individual is revealed. This is the type that will not book off sick when looking out of the window at home and seeing bad weather looming or develop an ailment when the radar is withdrawn from service for maintenance etc, etc. This is the type that will be comfortable with increased levels of traffic, even in an environment with a degraded service provision, always the professional and more than likely future management candidates will come from the pool of these types of ATC’s. This is where probably the bulk of ATC’s around the world would fall into. This is also the type of ATC’s that are normally very marketable around the world.
Then there is the “natural” type. This is a type that is extremely scarce and currently there are probably only about seven or eight in the world. These are types that have worked in just about every environment you can think of. Those environments comprise inter alia, without radar, with only primary radar, with SSR in a desperately over-crowded airspace with little or no hope of airspace restructure, and a truly apathetic management structure. They have also at some stage in their life worked every type of discipline available to ATC’s around the world. This is the type that will without batting an eye-lid work 8 – 10 hours un-aided, not because they want to, but because they have no choice, the difference with this group is that they will rarely if ever complain about it or even make it a subject of discussion, and when it is brought up they will more than likely play it down. In point of fact, this is the type of ATC who invariably actually gets better the busier they are, it is almost like a drug to them. The higher the traffic levels and the more crushing the impending load of traffic the bigger the ‘fix’ for them. This is also the type that is extremely calm under extreme duress, maintaining a monotone irrespective of traffic levels and are constantly about three to four moves ahead not just of the traffic on their screens but also their colleagues in adjacent FIR’s/Positions, constantly thinking about possible misinterpretations or errors and are already resolving them long before they happen, if they ever happen. They use the absolute bare minimum of standard ICAO RTF. These are normally fast talking, fast thinking individuals who actually love their work, seeing it as the best damn job available to mankind. In contrast to their incredible skills at work, you will in all likelihood find these individuals to be humble, reserved and soft spoken outside of the workplace, almost to the point of being self deprecating. They know they are extremely talented and see no point in verbalising it. The ones that I am acquainted with will actually attempt to divert favourable attention to someone else when it is placed on them. These are the types that have truly seen and experienced the highs and lows of ATC and have instinctively drawn on it to strengthen their skills. I will almost go as far to say that even though training can develop and diversify an ATC’s skills, to be a ‘natural’ is something that I have only witnessed to manifest itself from within the character of the individual, something that sets this individual apart from his/her colleagues from the get-go…….i.e…..something that I have not witnessed to be trainable.
As I stated earlier, I only know of about seven or eight in the world and none of them are in the UK or its immediate environs. I am fortunate enough to be acquainted with four of them, either by work experience or from various conferences or simply just watching them work. There are two at Denver TRACON (really impressive individuals), one at Hong Kong Terminal Radar, one at Doha Approach Radar……..these are the individuals I am acquainted with. From discussion groups and friends I understand there is one at Copenhagen Approach Radar, one at Johannesburg Approach Radar and one or two at one of the Australian En-Route Centres.
My advice to you girls is first…….shut-up, second, invest a little in your profession and go and visit one of these centres and see first hand what high traffic levels are, secondly and if you are allowed, plug in next to one of these individuals………lets see you wave your willy (given that you have one to start with) after that!!
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Well said Marlboroman!....’bout time someone gave them the “Patton” treatment. Judging by the responses posted, eugenically speaking, I surmise the lesson in your post is unfortunately at FL350 travelling at Mach .84 !!
On a different note, what is the current staff status at OMDB….any recruiting happening?
On a different note, what is the current staff status at OMDB….any recruiting happening?
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Marlboro.
What about your ''Super Controller'' mates.The places they work,do they do 3 mile spacing.HK I know doesn't,Doha and Dubai well thats Middle East and they never used to.Enroute Aus highly unlikely,which leave SA,Denmark and Denver.Don't know.
However the vast majority of Nats approach unit has 3 mile radar separation.
You weren't a script writer for Pushing Tin at all.
Hey Uriah you may have The Marlboro to coax you gently into Serco sandpitland.Oh deep joy. Every other thread seems to be about Middle East bitching about their packages.
What about your ''Super Controller'' mates.The places they work,do they do 3 mile spacing.HK I know doesn't,Doha and Dubai well thats Middle East and they never used to.Enroute Aus highly unlikely,which leave SA,Denmark and Denver.Don't know.
However the vast majority of Nats approach unit has 3 mile radar separation.
You weren't a script writer for Pushing Tin at all.Hey Uriah you may have The Marlboro to coax you gently into Serco sandpitland.Oh deep joy.
Every other thread seems to be about Middle East bitching about their packages.
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Dyce, ..….’Super Controllers’………’spacing’……..nothing to do with it. It’s been explained in the most basic plebeian language available…….like I said eugenics baby, it’s a “have to” here.
Hey Marlboro, just heard on my space you were here jamming at the V&A, no visit bru? You back in sand land? Check your PM.
Hey Marlboro, just heard on my space you were here jamming at the V&A, no visit bru? You back in sand land? Check your PM.
it.
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Hey Doos,……sorry Dyce, you’ve obviously got a major self esteem problem. A little on the diminutive side are we?,….. or been overlooked once too often?
When you have this guys level of experience and exposure,…….OI!!,cannot believe that I have to explain this!..............and as multi-skilled as he is, there develops an instinctive take on any one individuals general disposition within the work place. I know probably one or two of the individuals he is talking about, and Marlboroman is 100% correct in what he says, barring maybe the fact there could possibly be more of the so called “naturals” as he put its. However, what he is absolutely correct in saying is they are indeed a rare breed amongst rare breeds, pretty much like you would find many pilots who just somehow ’take’ to flying and display an almost uncanny ability to pre-empt any pending problems. You can train other pilots to incredibly high levels on some of the most technologically advanced aircraft in the world and they will be good, but they will still not have the almost ‘like-a-fish-to-water’ feel for aerodynamics and flying in general.
I can contextualise it further, but then it just gets ridiculous. In any event, the lesson or point in what he stated was simply a focus on attitude and how with the right attitude, circumstances tend to become a side-bar issue,….in short, the correct attitude makes your job enjoyable irrespective of where you work or under what conditions you work . It’s a paradigm…….and all too often, ATCO’s with the correct paradigm frequently tend to be admired almost revered in disbelief, given some of the environs they execute their duties within or from.
In all honesty, wish I had that ‘natural’ ability, but I don’t, like most, Salary, Environs and Perks etc,etc, are the order of the day for me, yet I still consider myself a pretty damn competent ATC. Not too much wrong with that I don’t think.
As far as I know, being checked out by an LCE is an attempt or gauging tool to ensure standards are being maintained, procedures are adhered to, in general both ICAO SARP’s and Local ATSU TOA’s and LOA’s/MOU’s are being observed……..not so much an ATCO’s general ability.
However if you still believe that every ATCO in the world must be assessed in order to realise his/her general ability……..well then old buddy, old cock, you still have so much to learn, which you will start to do in a more upward curve when you firstly remove those blinkers, secondly when you remove that bug from your behind and thirdly when you start taking a more holistic perspective of ATM.
Now more importantly, Marlboro….where are you Dude?
When you have this guys level of experience and exposure,…….OI!!,cannot believe that I have to explain this!..............and as multi-skilled as he is, there develops an instinctive take on any one individuals general disposition within the work place. I know probably one or two of the individuals he is talking about, and Marlboroman is 100% correct in what he says, barring maybe the fact there could possibly be more of the so called “naturals” as he put its. However, what he is absolutely correct in saying is they are indeed a rare breed amongst rare breeds, pretty much like you would find many pilots who just somehow ’take’ to flying and display an almost uncanny ability to pre-empt any pending problems. You can train other pilots to incredibly high levels on some of the most technologically advanced aircraft in the world and they will be good, but they will still not have the almost ‘like-a-fish-to-water’ feel for aerodynamics and flying in general.
I can contextualise it further, but then it just gets ridiculous. In any event, the lesson or point in what he stated was simply a focus on attitude and how with the right attitude, circumstances tend to become a side-bar issue,….in short, the correct attitude makes your job enjoyable irrespective of where you work or under what conditions you work . It’s a paradigm…….and all too often, ATCO’s with the correct paradigm frequently tend to be admired almost revered in disbelief, given some of the environs they execute their duties within or from.
In all honesty, wish I had that ‘natural’ ability, but I don’t, like most, Salary, Environs and Perks etc,etc, are the order of the day for me, yet I still consider myself a pretty damn competent ATC. Not too much wrong with that I don’t think.
As far as I know, being checked out by an LCE is an attempt or gauging tool to ensure standards are being maintained, procedures are adhered to, in general both ICAO SARP’s and Local ATSU TOA’s and LOA’s/MOU’s are being observed……..not so much an ATCO’s general ability.
However if you still believe that every ATCO in the world must be assessed in order to realise his/her general ability……..well then old buddy, old cock, you still have so much to learn, which you will start to do in a more upward curve when you firstly remove those blinkers, secondly when you remove that bug from your behind and thirdly when you start taking a more holistic perspective of ATM.
Now more importantly, Marlboro….where are you Dude?
