the people who really profit from the banding are thames, luton, SS and KK who get band 5 pay simply for sharing the same room and breathing the same air as TMA, and LL apc controllers. maybe macc should relocate to Swanwick instead of Scoacc and then become a band 5, what do you reckon?

I reckon you're talking bollox.

What you write may have been true a few years ago but now Essex and Thames are working just as hard as anyone else a fair amount of the time and the bulk of them hold multi validations. What about your TMA colleagues that just do east or midlands or maybe just capital if there's any of those?

And they say it's the Heathrow controllers that have the walk on water, look down nose attitude

From what I understand, most Heathrow controllers are glad not to have an Essex validation? There is busy, but routine and then there is the airspace surrounding Barkway!

As NATS pay generally dictates the salary levels paid at non NATS airports, it is useful to have an understanding of of what the 'market leader in UK ATC pay' is doing, rather than hiding it away?

Essex and Gatwick are busy all the time now, especially during the summer. How often do you see an LL controller working their arse off at 3 in the morning? Usually theyre on a long sleep or kipping in the ops room as are most of the TMA,whilst their KK and SS colleagues are up to their neck in planes and bandboxed for the most part.
This banding thing really should be put to bed...people should just accept it or move on if bothers them that much.

BUSTER THE BEAR!!! I DON'T THINK SO !! If you need to big yourself up come down to EGLL and train Or maybe you have already but it wasn't for you all that simple, boring , high workload traffic
If there was no night noise restrictions i am sure we would still be landing 40 an hour

mr 777, you must be joking surely. how can gatwick be working their ass off at 3 in the morning if the tma is asleep? do all tha planes magically appear from the continent straight into your airspace?

mmmmm, no, they work the tma first. same goes with essex, surely the aircraft they work all come from east or north or capital.

Unless of course, you were complimenting tma controllers who can do such a spanking good job whilst asleep compared to essex and kk who are clinging on bandboxed (heaven forbid) with less traffic once you minus the outbound flights that you dont work ,which the snoozy tma boys and gals do.
I do not begrudge you band 5, just saying that you get a better deal for it at the present time.

my pee pee is bigger than your pee pee......





Shhhhh teacher is coming!

I'mnotanERIC,

Complete Bolleaux.

1. Thames controllers must validate on another discipline. The only reason there are Thames only people at the moment is a) waiting to be cross trained or b) waiting for minimum time after 1st validation to pass before then joining the queue at point a.

2. SS and KK, although not as busy as LL, are less regimented and therefor probably more complex (wrt purely vectoring issues and the snags that come with not following the same track constantly like LL guys)... I'm not gonna get into the hassle that ensues when something happens to upset the regimented flow into LL.

3. Luton - see point 1 - replace 'Thames' with 'Luton'

ROFFA

a) For East only validations see point 1 above, replace 'Thames' with 'East'

b) Mids only? Midlands is a core sector and rightly so, tho like most people with a core validation at TC (i.e. they hold a validation that fulfills the MUR), most Midlands controllers will cross train on another sector.
The reason Mids is a core sector is plain to see by anyone in the TC OPs room.

c) Capital is never a first validation - ab initios would get blown away and taught all the wrong things. Ensuring separation is a long distant memory on Cap. Yes it's quiet 60% of the time, but when it's busy, it's probably the nastiest sector in the room. CAP only valid people (if indeed there are any) are possibly people who are fulfilling other tasks outside the OPs room whilst retaining a validation 14hrs a month.

Mr 777

During the wee small hours of night duty (after the SS rush at 2230) SS and KK get one A/C every 10 mins maximum when averaged out (and thats a generous estimate).. Admiteddly 2 or 3 may come in a 10 min period, followed by silence for the next 10-15 minutes, but SS and KK are not working their butts off - otherwise why would there only be one controller present for a 3 hour period?

KK are never bandboxed with anyone else or are you intimating that bandboxing means INT and FIN? If so, you need to experience other sectors to get an understanding.

TMA sectors are bandboxed (i.e. South/CAP; South/East; CAP/north, North/Midlands) depending on who is rostered on nights. Long sleeps are given out because of this bandboxing - we need the numbers to cover
a) the first and last 90 mins of night duties and
b) if someone has an incident.

For someone allegedly working in the TC OPs room, you have a very limited knowledge of what happens outside your single validation!

SS and KK, although not as busy as LL, are less regimented and therefor probably more complex (wrt purely vectoring issues and the snags that come with not following the same track constantly like LL guys)... I'm not gonna get into the hassle that ensues when something happens to upset the regimented flow into LL.
Dream on!!! If you have never done it then don't comment
Before you start i have

Now come on, this is getting embarrassing! We know all you radar 'controllers' just play computer games all day long.











I'll get me coat.

ViaEGLL

You are correct... I've never done it, would not want to. However, LL APP is a very regimented and disciplined skill. As I said clearly in my post, wrt (thats with regards to) purely the vectoring side of things, LL is not IMHO as complex - you guys cram a heck of a lot of A/C down the glidepath one after the hour relentlessly, but they all come from 4 known points.

Time and experience means that you can tell exactly when to take something off the hold to slot in with the correct spacing - it's almost a mathematical formula. Once you have your headings of the day etc, it should not be too difficult (with respect to the vectoring side of things).

There more variables at KK etc as although they take things from holds, they quite often- because they have the room and the opportunity, use the whole of the RMA for vectoring to set up a stream (something LL cannot do easily due to the constraints of procedures etc) - so therefore it is more complex, or in otherwords, not so routine.

I am not arguing, and never insinuated in my previous post that I thought the overall task at LL App was less complex - but of course, you would not have read that properly as you look down from your ivory tower, you just immediately went on the defensive!

And to be fair, you guys do get a lot of kip at night!!

Split from the NATS Pay Rise thread .... it was getting way off topic there

I did London Approach for 31 years... but thank God I never had to have a try at Essex or Thames. Those people work seriously hard.....

What's ImnotanERIC waving? It's so small I can't see anything.

Well just supposing Nats decides to have a TC at the New Prestwick Centre for PF,PH,PD.What Band would those controllers be on ?
Do you think that Nats will ever have different Bands at the same unit?

Yes, the time will come when they have to. Regardless of all other arguments on this and the banding thread, if NATS is to continue with a banding system then it is illogical to pay somebody who does North/Mids or South/Mids or South/North the same money as somebody who does East/Cap or Luton radar.

Perhaps there should be a 'core sector' payment whereby you get £x per year for working a core sector. That way, those who do 2 (and work harder for longer) will earn more than those who don't do any.

So-all you people who have never validated, or were unable to validate on LL radar, pontificate as to how easy it is! Look around the TC ops room and explain why all the other app sectors are full of people who didn`t make the grade at LL-------BUT----- now operate quite succeessfully on these so called busier and more complicated sectors. Don`t make me laugh!

I hear there's a WM at a large unit who never validated on radar at ANY NATS unit.

Is that failed to validate,or was a tower only?

Anotherthing-You are still commenting on LL and yet never been valid
I don't look down from any tower let alone an ivory one .I just state the facts and get a little cheesed off with people giving their views without having done it
Splitduty does have a point