High College Failure Rate?
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DwB,
Thanks. Interesting that seemingly someone has decided that we are not short of instructors.
Of course, concentrating on training our own people instead of providing capacity to foreign ATS providers would be foolish.
Thanks. Interesting that seemingly someone has decided that we are not short of instructors.
Of course, concentrating on training our own people instead of providing capacity to foreign ATS providers would be foolish.
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Here's something; how about a new GM at Hurn, that concentrates on training our Atcos before those of other countries!
"Suzie Rudzitis, General Manager Training and Simulation, will be taking up a new post as General Manager Global Training, effective from 11 June. Garry Jackson, currently Business Support Manager at West Drayton, will take on the role of General Manager, Training Centre Hurn from the same date."
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Gonzo - two instructors have been sent for around 2 months to Sweden to look at the way their basic course is run and try and shorten it, apparently it lasts 23 months, so now NATS is trying to shorten other country's courses as well as our own!
And last week it was announced that the Basic, Aerodrome and Approach courses are 14 instructors short! Great manpower planning i must say!
And last week it was announced that the Basic, Aerodrome and Approach courses are 14 instructors short! Great manpower planning i must say!
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College
When will management realise it is not a sausage machine they are running. They must bring into training more practicality and treat students with more respect. How much more can they try to take shortcuts in training?
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Back in the good old days, when courses had about 18 Cadets and the whole thing took nearly 3 years, both college and validation failure was a rarety. At validation, safety and reliability was essential but flair could be allowed to grow.
It seems to me that with customer demand outstripping system capacity, these days, unless you are really sharp during training, you just aren't good enough. Doesn't it follow that fewer and fewer will be capable of meeting the higher and higher standard for validation?
As far as the college is concerned, I am sure the failure rates must come down to course length and fullness. It seems to me rather like trying to teach brain surgery to those who haven't done basic medicine. A thorough grasp of basics, supported by experience gained along each step of the way must surely be a better way. It is, of course, much more expensive but choices have consequences.
.4
It seems to me that with customer demand outstripping system capacity, these days, unless you are really sharp during training, you just aren't good enough. Doesn't it follow that fewer and fewer will be capable of meeting the higher and higher standard for validation?
As far as the college is concerned, I am sure the failure rates must come down to course length and fullness. It seems to me rather like trying to teach brain surgery to those who haven't done basic medicine. A thorough grasp of basics, supported by experience gained along each step of the way must surely be a better way. It is, of course, much more expensive but choices have consequences.
.4
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nice post 120.4, it's a shame those that in charge of these things don't listen to what everyone who matters is telling them.
the college courses currently tend to suit people who pick things up quickly, not a bad characteristic for an atco! but what if these people peak very shortly after leaving the college and have no further capacity to cope with the increasing traffic?
whereas perfectly capable students who maybe don't pick things up as quickly and just need a little time for things to sink in, but hidden away they have the ability to cope with ever increasing traffic levels once at a unit and have the basics sussed, are being chopped at the first hurdle when they have been in an air traffic environment for less than 6 months.
also why do we have a one course fits all? I've been in many lessons/lectures/courses that help me understand i'm a visual learner/activist, theorist etc but hey ho you all have to do the same lessons. In fact I think they even test this during recruitment. I appreciate courses have to have certain topics, content and be approved by SRG but why aren't people being streamed according to learning style?
the college courses currently tend to suit people who pick things up quickly, not a bad characteristic for an atco! but what if these people peak very shortly after leaving the college and have no further capacity to cope with the increasing traffic?
whereas perfectly capable students who maybe don't pick things up as quickly and just need a little time for things to sink in, but hidden away they have the ability to cope with ever increasing traffic levels once at a unit and have the basics sussed, are being chopped at the first hurdle when they have been in an air traffic environment for less than 6 months.
also why do we have a one course fits all? I've been in many lessons/lectures/courses that help me understand i'm a visual learner/activist, theorist etc but hey ho you all have to do the same lessons. In fact I think they even test this during recruitment. I appreciate courses have to have certain topics, content and be approved by SRG but why aren't people being streamed according to learning style?
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120.4 has - IMHO - got it spot on.
The bean counters have taken over the entire system and the philosophy of purchasing a Rolls Royce when a wee Smartcar can do the job has infiltrated the training culture.
A Smartcar CAN be fit for purpose but only if you can accept the restrictions it places on reliability, capacity, speed and flexibility. Its certainly the cheaper option.
OK - the Rolls is perhaps too expensive but surely there is sensible option between the two extremes that will satisfy the operational need and the bean counters.
The bean counters have taken over the entire system and the philosophy of purchasing a Rolls Royce when a wee Smartcar can do the job has infiltrated the training culture.
A Smartcar CAN be fit for purpose but only if you can accept the restrictions it places on reliability, capacity, speed and flexibility. Its certainly the cheaper option.
OK - the Rolls is perhaps too expensive but surely there is sensible option between the two extremes that will satisfy the operational need and the bean counters.
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I know it may be viewed as comparing apples with oranges, but the RAF has had similiar issues in the past. Our basic cse (I suppose the nearest equivalent is aerodrome and approach radar) takes about 20 weeks or so, this was extended from 16 weeks. Failure rate is about 35% with some of those people being recoursed to give an overall pass rate of about 70-75%. Of those that successfully graduate, a very small percentage (about 1%) fail to validate at unit.
Lessons we have learnt:
We treat the whole course as a training environment and an extended aptitude test. Spending a couple of days at Cranwell (or the like) playing fancy 'games' (sorry 'aptitude tests') with computers just doesn't accurately reflect the latent skill sets required.
You can teach a monkey to control if you allocate enough time/money. One of our considerations is "How quickly can this individual learn?". Quite important when considering the training burden at units.
Instructors need to be properly motivated. You can have 100% bums on seats but if they don't give 100% effort you will have problems.
Students need to be properly motivated. Salary is not a driver in the military. That said, I cannot recall a poorly motivated student in all my time in the RAF.
Units form part of the training system. I know things are slightly different in the civil world but we do not graduate qualified controllers, we graduate people who we think will reach the required standard at an operational unit. If the training systems are not joined-up then there will be problems.
It is inexcusable to graduate someone and then make him/her sit in the wings for months before cutting their teeth. SATCOs are under remit to commence radar training at unit within 3 months of graduation. I have seen people struggle for their whole career because they spent the first 18 months of their controlling life on talkdown. Trying to recollect a little over 150hrs of total radar simulator time after 6 months or so is just asking too much. Consequently, the school/college needs to be able to cope with customer demand in a timely fashion.
Good luck to anyone at Hurn, I certainly would want to go through the machine!!
Lessons we have learnt:
We treat the whole course as a training environment and an extended aptitude test. Spending a couple of days at Cranwell (or the like) playing fancy 'games' (sorry 'aptitude tests') with computers just doesn't accurately reflect the latent skill sets required.
You can teach a monkey to control if you allocate enough time/money. One of our considerations is "How quickly can this individual learn?". Quite important when considering the training burden at units.
Instructors need to be properly motivated. You can have 100% bums on seats but if they don't give 100% effort you will have problems.
Students need to be properly motivated. Salary is not a driver in the military. That said, I cannot recall a poorly motivated student in all my time in the RAF.
Units form part of the training system. I know things are slightly different in the civil world but we do not graduate qualified controllers, we graduate people who we think will reach the required standard at an operational unit. If the training systems are not joined-up then there will be problems.
It is inexcusable to graduate someone and then make him/her sit in the wings for months before cutting their teeth. SATCOs are under remit to commence radar training at unit within 3 months of graduation. I have seen people struggle for their whole career because they spent the first 18 months of their controlling life on talkdown. Trying to recollect a little over 150hrs of total radar simulator time after 6 months or so is just asking too much. Consequently, the school/college needs to be able to cope with customer demand in a timely fashion.
Good luck to anyone at Hurn, I certainly would want to go through the machine!!
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Thank you.
I think it may be worth my adding a little more background information to my previous post because I may have a biased view - I was one of those rare failures.
Having graduated, I was unable to validate radar at what was then a very quiet SE airport. I was, at the time, an immature and very underconfident 21 years of age and this got in the way of my ability to manage the job. My confidence was further degraded by destructive comments during my training.
I appealed my dismissal but was informed that I was in the wrong job and should find something else more suitable. Eight years later, having done some growing up and having grasped a greater understanding of how to achieve my goals, I validated Heathrow approach in 3 months and 5 days.
My point is that I think individuals need to be managed individually because we all have differing needs, (although I accept that this may be a difficult task in ATC). Clearly I had the ability but the 'one size fits all' system wasn't able to get it out of me. I believe the college course that I did was the right one but that is not the end of the training process - as I think London Mil is suggesting.
.4
I think it may be worth my adding a little more background information to my previous post because I may have a biased view - I was one of those rare failures.
Having graduated, I was unable to validate radar at what was then a very quiet SE airport. I was, at the time, an immature and very underconfident 21 years of age and this got in the way of my ability to manage the job. My confidence was further degraded by destructive comments during my training.
I appealed my dismissal but was informed that I was in the wrong job and should find something else more suitable. Eight years later, having done some growing up and having grasped a greater understanding of how to achieve my goals, I validated Heathrow approach in 3 months and 5 days.
My point is that I think individuals need to be managed individually because we all have differing needs, (although I accept that this may be a difficult task in ATC). Clearly I had the ability but the 'one size fits all' system wasn't able to get it out of me. I believe the college course that I did was the right one but that is not the end of the training process - as I think London Mil is suggesting.
.4
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I was on one of the courses to which this thread refers.
120.4 has it spot on.
The instructors at the college are doing their best (Well, most of them are anyway) but their hands are tied by the beancounters and from on high.
120.4 has it spot on.
The instructors at the college are doing their best (Well, most of them are anyway) but their hands are tied by the beancounters and from on high.
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2sheds Sorry, just caught up with this thread having recently vacated a certain College and all its' machinations for what is probably the last time.
Well, you may say this, I could not possibly comment!
All I will say is to those going through the machine right now, some of whom might just remember a certain contract instructor. Good luck guys 'n' gals - there is some real talent there IMHO.
Bern Oulli, aka Pedro
the course is as realistic as possible and was very well designed - n'est-ce pas, Berni?
All I will say is to those going through the machine right now, some of whom might just remember a certain contract instructor. Good luck guys 'n' gals - there is some real talent there IMHO.
Bern Oulli, aka Pedro
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I have read through this thread and I'm afraid it has genuinely made me feel rather sad. Having started my career on 26 course and now with 35 years in the profession, I cannot help but agreeing with 120.4's post. We did have failures but not very many, and the vast majority of people who went through the early courses are still employed by NATS. This must be incredibly cost effective in the long term - but I'm afraid no-one seems to think long term any more. If there isn't a return in three years then it's not worth doing seems to be the attitude now.
On a personal note to all you new people at the college - do stick at it and do your best. As an instructor there is nothing worse than trying to work with people who don't want to learn or won't put their best effort in. Never be too arrogant to realise that you might have made a mistake - put it right in real time, then go and have a good technical argument over a cup of coffee or a pint later. That's part of the fun of being a controller - that's how we all learnt!
On a personal note to all you new people at the college - do stick at it and do your best. As an instructor there is nothing worse than trying to work with people who don't want to learn or won't put their best effort in. Never be too arrogant to realise that you might have made a mistake - put it right in real time, then go and have a good technical argument over a cup of coffee or a pint later. That's part of the fun of being a controller - that's how we all learnt!
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Lady P and 120.4,
Couldn't agree more. It just seems to me that the whole of NATS has become so infused with the 'management' culture that nobody can see the wood for the trees. In my younger days, the current failure rate would have been taken as a personal disgrace by instructors and training hierarchy alike. Now it seems to be perfectly acceptable, as long as the bean-counters' business targets are met. NATS is nowadays stuffed full of little people frantically trying to justify their existence by cutting petty little costs, and nobody (except PPRuNers) can see the adverse effects this has on the big picture.
As an afterthought, haven't the instructors at the college been able to raise their concerns to management about the appalling failure rate? Or are they also suffering the old 'head against a brick wall' syndrome that is alienating so many other operational staff?
Couldn't agree more. It just seems to me that the whole of NATS has become so infused with the 'management' culture that nobody can see the wood for the trees. In my younger days, the current failure rate would have been taken as a personal disgrace by instructors and training hierarchy alike. Now it seems to be perfectly acceptable, as long as the bean-counters' business targets are met. NATS is nowadays stuffed full of little people frantically trying to justify their existence by cutting petty little costs, and nobody (except PPRuNers) can see the adverse effects this has on the big picture.
As an afterthought, haven't the instructors at the college been able to raise their concerns to management about the appalling failure rate? Or are they also suffering the old 'head against a brick wall' syndrome that is alienating so many other operational staff?
I've always said the problem is they select the wrong people in the first place:
Q: Have you got a degree? A: Yes.
Well you're in; doesn't matter if you know nothing about aircraft.
Q: Have you got a degree? A: No but I've held a FISO licence for XX years and worked at several busy airfields and I've only got 2 GCSE's but I love aircraft and will do anything to work with them.
Sorry mate you need 'A' levels at least goodbye.
Q: Have you got a degree? A: Yes.
Well you're in; doesn't matter if you know nothing about aircraft.
Q: Have you got a degree? A: No but I've held a FISO licence for XX years and worked at several busy airfields and I've only got 2 GCSE's but I love aircraft and will do anything to work with them.
Sorry mate you need 'A' levels at least goodbye.