High College Failure Rate?
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High College Failure Rate?
Hi all,
I've just had a traumatic time reading a thread which indicated the college failure rates for NATS were sky high. I'm starting in September, and was looking for your opinions on why they are so high and if they are really at that level?
I've just had a traumatic time reading a thread which indicated the college failure rates for NATS were sky high. I'm starting in September, and was looking for your opinions on why they are so high and if they are really at that level?
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One of the things that the college is best at is milling rumours. The 'High Faliure rate' was all over the place while i was there and still is.
My experience of the college is that you tended to lose around a third of a course per course. I started with over 35 people at the induction and now there is 15-16 of us with licences. Some people quit, some were chopped and most got some form of re course. The main thing is that it is not for everyone, not one of the 35+ i started with was un motivated or un able but at the end of the day couldn't pass the assessments.
Just keep your head down and do the work and you'll be fine. People who make too much noise generally attract the wrong type of attention to themselves and come a cropper.
My experience of the college is that you tended to lose around a third of a course per course. I started with over 35 people at the induction and now there is 15-16 of us with licences. Some people quit, some were chopped and most got some form of re course. The main thing is that it is not for everyone, not one of the 35+ i started with was un motivated or un able but at the end of the day couldn't pass the assessments.
Just keep your head down and do the work and you'll be fine. People who make too much noise generally attract the wrong type of attention to themselves and come a cropper.
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Completely agree with Inca there,
It's not for everyone... but if you have the desire to do it, and put the work that's necessary in, you'll get the rewards you deserve at the end of it. It is tricky and difficult at times, but everyone there is behind you to make sure you get through it with a smile on your face.
Scarf
It's not for everyone... but if you have the desire to do it, and put the work that's necessary in, you'll get the rewards you deserve at the end of it. It is tricky and difficult at times, but everyone there is behind you to make sure you get through it with a smile on your face.
Scarf
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I was down at Hurn last week and was told by a member of College staff that of the last course to have summatives, out of 33, 26 failed. Of the remaining 7, 5 had already been re-coursed.
So what? So there can be high failure rates on some courses but that doesn't affect anyone who's about to start just the same as if the last course through had a 100% pass rate. It has absolutely no bearing on anything. Get your head down and work hard, nothing else affects your chances as much as your own endeavour.
So what? So there can be high failure rates on some courses but that doesn't affect anyone who's about to start just the same as if the last course through had a 100% pass rate. It has absolutely no bearing on anything. Get your head down and work hard, nothing else affects your chances as much as your own endeavour.
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I think you'll find once upon a time the failure rate was quite bad, 1/3 of people or so not making it. Now it's terrible. Of one of the most recent 'large' courses that are passing through the college, out of over 50 people only 16 people remain, their fate yet to be decided! One course had only 9 people passing last week and getting a posting and of those some had been recoursed multiple times!
The course is too short now and there are not enough good instructors to go around. It'd be interesting to know how much each trainee on £10k 'costs' compared to students on the old salary. I wouldn't be surprised if it was now more! You can't pile em high and sell em cheap.
The course is too short now and there are not enough good instructors to go around. It'd be interesting to know how much each trainee on £10k 'costs' compared to students on the old salary. I wouldn't be surprised if it was now more! You can't pile em high and sell em cheap.
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That is a worryingly high failure rate, too much cost cutting by bean counters no doubt with the college staff taking all the flack.
We started as a course of 60 and 44 of us graduated after 3 ratings with most failures at the procedural rating, as they no longer do that you would think the pass rate would be higher. Although the pay may account for some of it, not attracting some potentially excellent candidates, I would find it hard to believe that the selection process is letting the system down so badly.
Reducing the length of courses is to the long term detriment of NATS and we risk losing people who just needed a little longer at the college ?
We started as a course of 60 and 44 of us graduated after 3 ratings with most failures at the procedural rating, as they no longer do that you would think the pass rate would be higher. Although the pay may account for some of it, not attracting some potentially excellent candidates, I would find it hard to believe that the selection process is letting the system down so badly.
Reducing the length of courses is to the long term detriment of NATS and we risk losing people who just needed a little longer at the college ?
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Scarf; Some of the instructors are very good, but be careful about assuming all are when you have nothing else to compare it to. Some haven't been valid on radar for over 20 years and some are contracted back in because no one else wants to do it! Those who hold validations are excellent instructors. But there's a few who have a nice little earner going on, who by all accounts were a bit ropey when valid!
The problem with the 10k is it's an extra pressure you don't need. Plus I've heard some people need a part time to job to live, that cannot help you to focus on the course. Plus how do you afford to let your hair down and wind down at the weekend?
The problem with the 10k is it's an extra pressure you don't need. Plus I've heard some people need a part time to job to live, that cannot help you to focus on the course. Plus how do you afford to let your hair down and wind down at the weekend?
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Eek, my apologies, other post disappeared.. trying to claw it back again!
You are right, I can't really compare it to "the good ol days" and how it used to be, so obviously have an inaccurate view on the whole thing! I haven't heard of anyone having another job to supplement their expenses, but i know where your coming from. It is tight, and i don't know how other people coming from other jobs are managing. Fortunately I came straight from college and into it, so for me it's actually the highest paid job i've had, used to living off a couple of tins of baked beans a week!
You are right, I can't really compare it to "the good ol days" and how it used to be, so obviously have an inaccurate view on the whole thing! I haven't heard of anyone having another job to supplement their expenses, but i know where your coming from. It is tight, and i don't know how other people coming from other jobs are managing. Fortunately I came straight from college and into it, so for me it's actually the highest paid job i've had, used to living off a couple of tins of baked beans a week!
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unfortunately very suitable candidates aren't able to give up well paid secure jobs to embark on a very risky course as they have commitments, hence the 10k appeals to a very small pool of candidates.
i hear people now are frequently failing oral boards and written examinations (despite the 70% rule for each q being changed) This was generally unheard of even up to the last non-10k course! These sentiments are being echoed from many different areas of the company so it's about time management listened.
Here's something; how about a new GM at Hurn, that concentrates on training our Atcos before those of other countries!
i hear people now are frequently failing oral boards and written examinations (despite the 70% rule for each q being changed) This was generally unheard of even up to the last non-10k course! These sentiments are being echoed from many different areas of the company so it's about time management listened.
Here's something; how about a new GM at Hurn, that concentrates on training our Atcos before those of other countries!
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As a general rule, about 1/4 of people are making it through from entry to validation.
10k pay cut or not, I think this must be costing Uncle Barron a few bob, but the management don't seem to be bothered by the chop rate.
10k pay cut or not, I think this must be costing Uncle Barron a few bob, but the management don't seem to be bothered by the chop rate.
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How about a new GM at Hurn, that concentrates on training our Atcos before those of other countires
I also heard that there is a course of 63 students about to start. Why so many? Surely senoior management would be better off cutting this by a third and paying them 15k each (or 10k plus 5k accom expenses) and concentrate on quality. Still that's another matter.
Last edited by Standard Noise; 23rd Apr 2007 at 08:02. Reason: Thoughts don't come easily in the morning!
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To be fair, I'm giving up a 33K a year job to do this, BUT I have no mortgage or commitments. It's a nothing ventured situation. I have some money put aside, so hopefully I'll have slightly less to deal with in that sense (plus no uni debts!). Those course numbers seem huge, surely if efforts were focused on fewer, they would learn more?
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When I went through the course sizes were large 60 on each course, the success rate was pretty good losing at most a quarter of the course by the end and practically all validating.
It isn't down to the size of the course there are other factors.
It isn't down to the size of the course there are other factors.
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Well someone must know what's causing the failure rate, it can't be motivation as the process to get on the course takes a bit of work in the first place. I'm sure the college wants everyone to pass so is it a case of someone's capacity to deal with the actual flow of air traffic and the way someone deals with that, so even with extra tution and hard work that person simply won't make it? Perhaps I'm wrong but it does seem a highly large failure rate and it is making me consider if I want to go through the process of applying only to get chopped if I was on the course. My motivation is there, but that alone won't get my through the course!
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I was on one of the first '10k' courses, also with a large intake of over 50.
Like yourself, before i joined, i was scared about the high failure rate rumoured. To be honest, i think this fear helped me pass the college, and pass it without failing a single exam/assessment. In first month, we had four people resign-dont think it was because it was too hard for them, just that they felt it just wasnt for them. The largest chunk off our course not to pass (trying to avoid word 'fail') was on our basic course. It wasnt the theory side, we all did well at that, it was the practical. out of 52 of us, only 23 passed basic. of those that did not pass, 1/2 got recourses (and for the record all then went on to pass basic and seem to be doing fine on their rating courses). When i was on my rating course (discipline) the course was split 50/50 with people on my course and people from previous courses having been recoursed. After a month, there were only two of us from my original course (out of five) still on my rating course, all those bar one that didnt pass were recoursed and have now passed. On my rating course all those that were recoursed onto my course (well done if you can get your head round this) passed, and, quite frankly without TOO much hassle.
The point i am making is that, quite frankly it is unusual for a student (it seems) to pass the college courses first time. Many get recoursed at some point, and those that do tend to do well-perhaps it shook them up and gave them a kick in the back side, perhaps it just gave them that little more time to get good at the job-more practise at r/t and better understanding of rules.
The failure rate tends not to include those who get recoursed, so although the pass rate for people passing first time is awful, i would say the majority of the course do pass eventually, whatever their discipline.
As to the reason why...i would love to bemoan the 10k, but, quite frankly for someone with no debt, no wife and no real commitments, i was fine with it-wasnt easy and certainly added extra pressure but is, at the end of the day livable.
The courses are just too short (intensive) and the high intake is too much for the instructors to make sure they spend enough time with students, especially on the basic course.
When i was on my rating course, there were only 8 of us, the instructors were able to see trends in our controlling that were good and bad, and spent enough time with us to be able too see it early and encourage what was good, and quash what was bad.
For the college, just keep head down, get head in books for theory and make sure that you are 100% for sim runs (not hungover etc). Listen to what instructors tell you, and make positive effort to heed advice-if get criticised, dont just think the instructors are plain wrong, just do it.
Find a group of you (dsay 4-5) to every week get together and practise oral board questions (literally just open MATS and ask a random question to each other, particularly scenario based). We did this and all my rating course passed their oral boards, we were so used to asking each other random questions that we werent phased by questions such as 'what are the rules regarding light shows, pyrothecnics and fire works in the vicinity of an aerodrome'
Hope helps.
Like yourself, before i joined, i was scared about the high failure rate rumoured. To be honest, i think this fear helped me pass the college, and pass it without failing a single exam/assessment. In first month, we had four people resign-dont think it was because it was too hard for them, just that they felt it just wasnt for them. The largest chunk off our course not to pass (trying to avoid word 'fail') was on our basic course. It wasnt the theory side, we all did well at that, it was the practical. out of 52 of us, only 23 passed basic. of those that did not pass, 1/2 got recourses (and for the record all then went on to pass basic and seem to be doing fine on their rating courses). When i was on my rating course (discipline) the course was split 50/50 with people on my course and people from previous courses having been recoursed. After a month, there were only two of us from my original course (out of five) still on my rating course, all those bar one that didnt pass were recoursed and have now passed. On my rating course all those that were recoursed onto my course (well done if you can get your head round this) passed, and, quite frankly without TOO much hassle.
The point i am making is that, quite frankly it is unusual for a student (it seems) to pass the college courses first time. Many get recoursed at some point, and those that do tend to do well-perhaps it shook them up and gave them a kick in the back side, perhaps it just gave them that little more time to get good at the job-more practise at r/t and better understanding of rules.
The failure rate tends not to include those who get recoursed, so although the pass rate for people passing first time is awful, i would say the majority of the course do pass eventually, whatever their discipline.
As to the reason why...i would love to bemoan the 10k, but, quite frankly for someone with no debt, no wife and no real commitments, i was fine with it-wasnt easy and certainly added extra pressure but is, at the end of the day livable.
The courses are just too short (intensive) and the high intake is too much for the instructors to make sure they spend enough time with students, especially on the basic course.
When i was on my rating course, there were only 8 of us, the instructors were able to see trends in our controlling that were good and bad, and spent enough time with us to be able too see it early and encourage what was good, and quash what was bad.
For the college, just keep head down, get head in books for theory and make sure that you are 100% for sim runs (not hungover etc). Listen to what instructors tell you, and make positive effort to heed advice-if get criticised, dont just think the instructors are plain wrong, just do it.
Find a group of you (dsay 4-5) to every week get together and practise oral board questions (literally just open MATS and ask a random question to each other, particularly scenario based). We did this and all my rating course passed their oral boards, we were so used to asking each other random questions that we werent phased by questions such as 'what are the rules regarding light shows, pyrothecnics and fire works in the vicinity of an aerodrome'
Hope helps.
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Just to say, recourses are becoming more and more common. My time there a good 1/2 of my basic course made it through with no faliures at all and those who failed were advised to find other gainful employment. The recourse thing seemed to pick up as i was leaving, more and more people passing training reviews, which was almost unheard of before!
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DAL208
An excellent, if somewhat convoluted, post
Area ratings courses are now starting with around 40 students on each. Are instructors able to identify these trends when they may only sit with each student once or twice (or not at all) over a three month period?
But not exclusively the basic course, it would seem.
Perhaps the courses should be planned to do this in the first place.
As Standard Noise mentions, past results have no bearing on your success as individuals. My advice to any new starters would be to work hard and give it your best shot. You may pass, you may not, but of those who fail, many get a second chance.
Its hard work, its pressurised, but mostly, its good fun.
Enjoy
An excellent, if somewhat convoluted, post
the instructors were able to see trends in our controlling that were good and bad
The courses are just too short (intensive) and the high intake is too much for the instructors to make sure they spend enough time with students, especially on the basic course.
perhaps it just gave them that little more time
As Standard Noise mentions, past results have no bearing on your success as individuals. My advice to any new starters would be to work hard and give it your best shot. You may pass, you may not, but of those who fail, many get a second chance.
Its hard work, its pressurised, but mostly, its good fun.
Enjoy
Last edited by Permanent Echo; 23rd Apr 2007 at 10:55.