High College Failure Rate?
Radarman:College instructors don't seem to do this; could it be because they don't want to lose their band 5 salaries?
I must add that the example above which I gave for a rejection actually happened, it's not fictional. I flew from two of the airfields where that guy worked so I know how good he was.
Edited to say Band 5; AlanM is also Band 5 so he would know (wonder if his wife knows he is)
I must add that the example above which I gave for a rejection actually happened, it's not fictional. I flew from two of the airfields where that guy worked so I know how good he was.
Edited to say Band 5; AlanM is also Band 5 so he would know (wonder if his wife knows he is)
Last edited by chevvron; 2nd Jun 2007 at 14:25.
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chevv, Gonzo,
Problem goes back years. I remember in '87 one of our guys took up an instructor's post at Hurn. He told us: Big question at college - failure rate too high, how can we get better candidates? Some bright spark suggested that instead of going for degrees they grab all the 'anoraks' on the roof of Queen's Building at Heathrow listening to ATC on scanners . As long as they had O Levels in maths and English they would be just the job. Did management listen? Do they ever listen to the people at the coal face? No, they listened instead to HR luvvies and various recruitment consultants. Result? = keen, dedicated aviation enthusiasts turned away, people with degrees in underwater basket-weaving welcomed with open arms = appalling failure rate.
So what can we do to get it through the numbskulls of the polcy makers and selectors?
Problem goes back years. I remember in '87 one of our guys took up an instructor's post at Hurn. He told us: Big question at college - failure rate too high, how can we get better candidates? Some bright spark suggested that instead of going for degrees they grab all the 'anoraks' on the roof of Queen's Building at Heathrow listening to ATC on scanners . As long as they had O Levels in maths and English they would be just the job. Did management listen? Do they ever listen to the people at the coal face? No, they listened instead to HR luvvies and various recruitment consultants. Result? = keen, dedicated aviation enthusiasts turned away, people with degrees in underwater basket-weaving welcomed with open arms = appalling failure rate.
So what can we do to get it through the numbskulls of the polcy makers and selectors?
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Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm all for recruiting those who have a high level of aviation knowledge. However, if that were a requirement, we'd have four courses a year of less than five students who had that level of knowledge and could pass the rest of the selection tests/interviews. Remember, it's no good being able to recall instantly how many individual tyres on a 744, or the thrust of an RB211-524H to the nearest pound, and yet be unable to manage time effectively, or work in a team, or make decisions under pressure etc etc. On my course (106, started in April 98) of 34 NATS students, there were two or three 'anoraks' if you will, another handful who had a good level of knowledge, and over 20 who didn't really know much about ATC or aviation at all. At last count, about 25 of them were employed by NATS as ATCOs, I think there are two non-NATS ATCOs, a few in NATS in other roles too. Not too shabby for the majority of non Total Aviation Persons to misquote Flight's Uncle Roger.
My comment above was aimed at Chevvron's remark that we only select those who have degrees regardless of their skills, or lack thereof. Simply not true.
I also have to take exception to the thought that the selectors are 'numbskulls'. Yes, we have objectives against which we score, but also we are ATCOs too, and at the end of the day throughout the process we, as 'selectors', are also going to have to work with and train those we are putting through. A lot of us feel passionately about this work, and put in a lot of effort to get the right result. In fact, it seems as if I'm going to be asked to give up working with recruitment later this year, and to be honest I'm dreading that day, and not a little cheesed off to put it mildly.
As an aside, on the day, if there is a disagreement between ATCO and HR, then ATCO wins.
My comment above was aimed at Chevvron's remark that we only select those who have degrees regardless of their skills, or lack thereof. Simply not true.
I also have to take exception to the thought that the selectors are 'numbskulls'. Yes, we have objectives against which we score, but also we are ATCOs too, and at the end of the day throughout the process we, as 'selectors', are also going to have to work with and train those we are putting through. A lot of us feel passionately about this work, and put in a lot of effort to get the right result. In fact, it seems as if I'm going to be asked to give up working with recruitment later this year, and to be honest I'm dreading that day, and not a little cheesed off to put it mildly.
As an aside, on the day, if there is a disagreement between ATCO and HR, then ATCO wins.
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Not true
I must say I find some of the above comments very snooty. I have a degree and have just got on the June course. My degree wasn't much better than basket weaving. I worked in baggage handling for a little while and an enthusiasm grew for air transport.
In no way am I an anorak. I know very little about planes, but I'm ready and willing to learn. I feel I am a good team worker, keep good time and have the skills and organisation necessary. I also feel a degree gave me these abilities and taught me team skills, how to work hard for something, and how to deal with success and failure. The assessors obviously feel that I am able to marry up these personal traits with an enthusiasm to learn more and increase my interest in aviation.
I feel I will do very well on the course, and I don't think my degree will hold me back.
In no way am I an anorak. I know very little about planes, but I'm ready and willing to learn. I feel I am a good team worker, keep good time and have the skills and organisation necessary. I also feel a degree gave me these abilities and taught me team skills, how to work hard for something, and how to deal with success and failure. The assessors obviously feel that I am able to marry up these personal traits with an enthusiasm to learn more and increase my interest in aviation.
I feel I will do very well on the course, and I don't think my degree will hold me back.
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rameses,
I was not trying to run down the efforts and commitment of those who have studied for, and gained degrees. Just commenting on the apparent fact that the higher the hurdles set by the selectors over the years, the higher the failure rate of those who do eventually make it to the college. When I first came into ATC there was almost nothing in the way of selection - certainly nothing like the flaming hoops that present day aspirants have to jump through - and yet failures, or even re-courses, were a very rare occurrence. So something has gone wrong over the years. And if it's not the quality of the students, then it's the structure and philosophy of the instructional institution, and the quality of the instructors. And that's another can of worms opened!
Anyway, from your comments it sounds as though you are mature and well-balanced, and I wish you the very best of luck in June.
I was not trying to run down the efforts and commitment of those who have studied for, and gained degrees. Just commenting on the apparent fact that the higher the hurdles set by the selectors over the years, the higher the failure rate of those who do eventually make it to the college. When I first came into ATC there was almost nothing in the way of selection - certainly nothing like the flaming hoops that present day aspirants have to jump through - and yet failures, or even re-courses, were a very rare occurrence. So something has gone wrong over the years. And if it's not the quality of the students, then it's the structure and philosophy of the instructional institution, and the quality of the instructors. And that's another can of worms opened!
Anyway, from your comments it sounds as though you are mature and well-balanced, and I wish you the very best of luck in June.
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It doesn't help that the college is woefully short of instructors. The Airports side is something like 13 or 14 short! What does Management expect to happen to the standards there when the instructors are getting stretched further and further to cover an ever increasing workload?
The courses are shortend resulting in students having to do five or six runs a day, back to back. People wonder why there's such a high failure rate but the guys are simply burnt out. The instructors are then expected to do all the extraneous duties having spent the entire working day in the sims!
There's no slack in the system to allow for even the shortest bout of sickness either student or instructor. Medical recourses are common because runs can't be caught up or runs are cancelled because there is no slack in the instructor numbers.
Overstretched instructors training overstreteched students.
The courses are shortend resulting in students having to do five or six runs a day, back to back. People wonder why there's such a high failure rate but the guys are simply burnt out. The instructors are then expected to do all the extraneous duties having spent the entire working day in the sims!
There's no slack in the system to allow for even the shortest bout of sickness either student or instructor. Medical recourses are common because runs can't be caught up or runs are cancelled because there is no slack in the instructor numbers.
Overstretched instructors training overstreteched students.
I wasn't suggesting all anoraks, just maybe people with the intelligence to get themselves some sort of experience working in aviation prior to applying be it FISO, PPL or being an ATC cadet or even just cleaning aircraft.
Many years ago my intake was virtually 50/50 new entrants and ex assistants; we started with 23, by the end of the 4 week initial course we were down to 22, and after 3 years training in all aspects getting all civil ratings, we graduated with 16. As far as I recall, we 'lost' most of them during the aerodrome field training.
How many courses nowadays graduate that proportion of 'starters'? Often they combine 2 courses graduating at once so as to make it look as though there's a lot of successes.
Many years ago my intake was virtually 50/50 new entrants and ex assistants; we started with 23, by the end of the 4 week initial course we were down to 22, and after 3 years training in all aspects getting all civil ratings, we graduated with 16. As far as I recall, we 'lost' most of them during the aerodrome field training.
How many courses nowadays graduate that proportion of 'starters'? Often they combine 2 courses graduating at once so as to make it look as though there's a lot of successes.
And the shortage of instructors mentioned by Jellyman - could it be caused by the fact that operational units are so short staffed they can't release anyone to become an instructor? Let's face it, instructors do a good job considering the material with which they have to work; it's not their fault they have to 'rush' training it's the fault of the managers who require them to do this.
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no time
From what I have read and been told, a key reason for the failure rate is that they are trying to train 18 months work into 9 months of time. The best way of learning, in my opinion, is to be taught something, and then be given time to go over it again with an instructor, so everything is fully understood. I believe in the current course, as soon as you have learnt one thing, there is something new to learn.
This means firstly its very easy to get behind, trying to perfect something you are unsure of comes at the cost of learning a new skill or element to the role. Secondly its very hard to take in everything you are learning as its moving so fast.
Again, going off what Ive read, the trainees used to come to the units with a lot more knowledge then they are currently. I think, from what I have seen at the assessment process, the unit training is seen as as much of a learning curve as the college. The trainers dont expect us to have the in depth knowledge at this stage, and yet Id imagine a proportion of the recruits think they have 'made it' when they get to the unit, so display an arrogance not matched by their prowess.
I think recruits from University, other jobs, anoraks and people directly from school would all struggle with such a system, its about proving you have what it takes through adversity, which is what I intend to do.
This means firstly its very easy to get behind, trying to perfect something you are unsure of comes at the cost of learning a new skill or element to the role. Secondly its very hard to take in everything you are learning as its moving so fast.
Again, going off what Ive read, the trainees used to come to the units with a lot more knowledge then they are currently. I think, from what I have seen at the assessment process, the unit training is seen as as much of a learning curve as the college. The trainers dont expect us to have the in depth knowledge at this stage, and yet Id imagine a proportion of the recruits think they have 'made it' when they get to the unit, so display an arrogance not matched by their prowess.
I think recruits from University, other jobs, anoraks and people directly from school would all struggle with such a system, its about proving you have what it takes through adversity, which is what I intend to do.
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Top post Rameses,
You've pretty much hit the nail on the head. It's not easy but determination will definately get you a long way towards passing. Our course is a big mixture of backgrounds/ages and all groups have some who struggle and some who don't.
You do need some natural ability for the practical side of things but as I said before, determination will see you through the grinding 5 weeks of theory. Enjoy the 8 hours of AFTN
You've pretty much hit the nail on the head. It's not easy but determination will definately get you a long way towards passing. Our course is a big mixture of backgrounds/ages and all groups have some who struggle and some who don't.
You do need some natural ability for the practical side of things but as I said before, determination will see you through the grinding 5 weeks of theory. Enjoy the 8 hours of AFTN
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Just as a side note to college discussions, what are people's opinions on the graduation ceremonies?
A useful and well deserved pat on the back or a waste of money given some of the people present may never reach validation standard.
A useful and well deserved pat on the back or a waste of money given some of the people present may never reach validation standard.
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Side saddled,
We don't get many perks from the company nowadays, t'would be a shame to see a NATS sponsored p**s up go as well. I thought that it was quite good to have it, although there is plenty of hard work ahead of graduates of the college, it is still an achievement to get through, even more so now.
Plus it is a good final social event for a group of people who hopefully bonded on the course, and who are now going to lots of different units.
We don't get many perks from the company nowadays, t'would be a shame to see a NATS sponsored p**s up go as well. I thought that it was quite good to have it, although there is plenty of hard work ahead of graduates of the college, it is still an achievement to get through, even more so now.
Plus it is a good final social event for a group of people who hopefully bonded on the course, and who are now going to lots of different units.
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But you'll also find that the Graduation gets hijacked by management so they can present awards to themselves 
. Still a good p**s up though, lots of free wine flowing and a good way to catch up with friends 
. Still a good p**s up though, lots of free wine flowing and a good way to catch up with friends
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The graduation might be well meaning, but i think, fairly pointless.. A bit too much pomp & ceremony at what is really only an intermediate point on the training scale. Quite a few from my grad ceremony failed to validate and several don't even work for NATS anymore..
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College Instructors
I noticed from an earlier post that the college is short of 13-14 Instructors....
Can anyone with any insider knowledge tell me if the external controller recruitment extends to college instructors?
I know there is a separate thread on the external controller recruitment but I too are one of these people looking for an appropriate opportunity. Had an Application in for a year or so, ADI/APS/OJTI rated, decent amount of operational experience. Still it appears not to be registering with the recruiters
Regards
LOTZ
Can anyone with any insider knowledge tell me if the external controller recruitment extends to college instructors?
I know there is a separate thread on the external controller recruitment but I too are one of these people looking for an appropriate opportunity. Had an Application in for a year or so, ADI/APS/OJTI rated, decent amount of operational experience. Still it appears not to be registering with the recruiters
Regards
LOTZ