trainee salaries
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INCA9, I actually DO know 2 famillies living on that kind of income and theyre much better financial planners than some of the controllers I work with!!!
Just tell me one thing... WHY should NATS pay trainees at all? You say they (Im guessing that means you?) should be "rewarded" from day 1?! Rewarded for what exactly? Being offered a place on one of the most sought after and over subscribed training courses in the country? For having the earning potential to top 99% of similarly qualified people in the country?
Dont worry though, most who dont have the aptitude wont actually get to the 10k as that means being there a whole year successfully!!!
Its a hard course, but a worthwhile one and 9 months of careful financial planning and hard work will set you up FOR LIFE..... unlike 4 yrs of Uni on nothing and with no guarantee of ANY job at the end never mind the earning potential and job security NATS provides... But heck if you need further reward than that and want to complain... Be a farmer!!!
Just tell me one thing... WHY should NATS pay trainees at all? You say they (Im guessing that means you?) should be "rewarded" from day 1?! Rewarded for what exactly? Being offered a place on one of the most sought after and over subscribed training courses in the country? For having the earning potential to top 99% of similarly qualified people in the country?
Dont worry though, most who dont have the aptitude wont actually get to the 10k as that means being there a whole year successfully!!!
Its a hard course, but a worthwhile one and 9 months of careful financial planning and hard work will set you up FOR LIFE..... unlike 4 yrs of Uni on nothing and with no guarantee of ANY job at the end never mind the earning potential and job security NATS provides... But heck if you need further reward than that and want to complain... Be a farmer!!!
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Flower - you have to 18 to hold a tower validation
21 to hold a radar validation - not ratings
Minihiggerz - I agree that being 18 may mean that you are more able to absorb and learn - but be careful about expecting to be told what to do in ATC - that is not a quality that is desirable - we need people who are able to think for themselves and not people who expect to be spoonfed. You keep mentioning your Father - I'm sure he would agree
louby
21 to hold a radar validation - not ratings
Minihiggerz - I agree that being 18 may mean that you are more able to absorb and learn - but be careful about expecting to be told what to do in ATC - that is not a quality that is desirable - we need people who are able to think for themselves and not people who expect to be spoonfed. You keep mentioning your Father - I'm sure he would agree
louby
Ohcirrej
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they're used to school/college and being told what to do
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Minihiggerz
Being 18 may mean you are more able to absorb and learn - but the question is will an 18 year old get off their butt and do it?!!
I was over 30 when I went through the course and posted higher exam marks than the majority of my colleagues.
I did not work that hard at the exams to tell the truth - all this talk about having to study 2 or 3 hours a night is in my mind OTT, but I was more prepared to do the work than some of my younger colleagues. As for the sims, if you are middle aged upwards, then keeping up with the flow of the traffic may be slightly more difficult but it is a lot to do with aptitude - which is not age specific.
IMHO the best course is one with a healthy cross section of society in both age and backgrounds - it helps with teamwork and the varied experiences bring some good things to the college (in the same way that the youngsters dragging the oldies out to let their hair down is an essential part) if you are a loner and not a team player, then this course and career is not for you.
NATS as a business may want youngsters who will give more return of service - but the reality is a course of 18 years olds will do less well than a course with a good mix of ages and backgrounds. Something NATS should be thinking of, as then they will need to recruit and train less people.
I think the current strategy of advertising on radio for 'drop in' sessions, with the lure of £85k is not the way to do recruiting - NATS needs to educate the public (through schools, colleges, unis etc - and maybe getting on TV) as to what ATCOs etc do - this will bring in more people who want to do the job - not just people after a wad of cash. However, this would involve more time and effort and although it would bring an overall better percentage of motivated people to initial interviews, it is not a course that the money driven, ignorant management will pursue.
I honestly reckon in a few years time (when management finally wake up to the fact that we will not be fully manned in 2008); it will be OJTIs etc who take the brunt of the blame, because NATS will say "we gave you the numbers of applicants - you failed to train them properly to enable them to validate"
Flower
I honestly think the reason there are few 'ethnic minorities' is because of the lack of public awareness as to what our job actually is - as said in my drivel above - if joe public does not know or understand what we do, then minorities are going to be even more minor in our business!!
NATS as a 'world leader' needs to get out on the street and tell people why we are a world leader. I arrange a few trips a year for a friends business - the travel agent I deal with thought that all we did was monitor computers (this was an educated, well travelled travel assistant, not some spotty 17yr old working for a high street chain). Hell you walk up to the check in desk at airports now and if you try to get extra leg room etc and state you are in ATC, some of the Cabin Crew say "what do you do for us?!! and this is a quote from an employee of the UKs 'favourite airline'!!
Being 18 may mean you are more able to absorb and learn - but the question is will an 18 year old get off their butt and do it?!!
I was over 30 when I went through the course and posted higher exam marks than the majority of my colleagues.
I did not work that hard at the exams to tell the truth - all this talk about having to study 2 or 3 hours a night is in my mind OTT, but I was more prepared to do the work than some of my younger colleagues. As for the sims, if you are middle aged upwards, then keeping up with the flow of the traffic may be slightly more difficult but it is a lot to do with aptitude - which is not age specific.
IMHO the best course is one with a healthy cross section of society in both age and backgrounds - it helps with teamwork and the varied experiences bring some good things to the college (in the same way that the youngsters dragging the oldies out to let their hair down is an essential part) if you are a loner and not a team player, then this course and career is not for you.
NATS as a business may want youngsters who will give more return of service - but the reality is a course of 18 years olds will do less well than a course with a good mix of ages and backgrounds. Something NATS should be thinking of, as then they will need to recruit and train less people.
I think the current strategy of advertising on radio for 'drop in' sessions, with the lure of £85k is not the way to do recruiting - NATS needs to educate the public (through schools, colleges, unis etc - and maybe getting on TV) as to what ATCOs etc do - this will bring in more people who want to do the job - not just people after a wad of cash. However, this would involve more time and effort and although it would bring an overall better percentage of motivated people to initial interviews, it is not a course that the money driven, ignorant management will pursue.
I honestly reckon in a few years time (when management finally wake up to the fact that we will not be fully manned in 2008); it will be OJTIs etc who take the brunt of the blame, because NATS will say "we gave you the numbers of applicants - you failed to train them properly to enable them to validate"
Flower
I honestly think the reason there are few 'ethnic minorities' is because of the lack of public awareness as to what our job actually is - as said in my drivel above - if joe public does not know or understand what we do, then minorities are going to be even more minor in our business!!
NATS as a 'world leader' needs to get out on the street and tell people why we are a world leader. I arrange a few trips a year for a friends business - the travel agent I deal with thought that all we did was monitor computers (this was an educated, well travelled travel assistant, not some spotty 17yr old working for a high street chain). Hell you walk up to the check in desk at airports now and if you try to get extra leg room etc and state you are in ATC, some of the Cabin Crew say "what do you do for us?!! and this is a quote from an employee of the UKs 'favourite airline'!!
Last edited by anotherthing; 22nd Feb 2007 at 13:59.
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Flower - you have to 18 to hold a tower validation
21 to hold a radar validation - not ratings
21 to hold a radar validation - not ratings
PART A
Air traffic controller licences
Air Traffic Controller's Licence
1. —(1) The minimum age at which a person may be granted an Air Traffic Controller's Licence shall be 20 years.
(2) There shall be no maximum period of validity for an Air Traffic Controller's Licence.
(3) The privileges of an Air Traffic Controller's Licence are to—
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NATS should make a jazzy documentary about life as an ATC and get it on the beeb .. bet they would come flocking! it would also clear up the table tennis bats myth 
bonus.. 
bonus..
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Loubylou - it wasn't my words saying that us 18 year olds were more used to being told what to do etc, the ATCO that was at the open day i went to yesterday actually said it himself. Obv, I realise that I'm not going to be spoonfed, I've been working for the past however many months since college and have certainly learnt a lot about the world from that time!
niknak
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The facts are, ladies and gentlemen, NATS and non NATS airport operators have no trouble in getting applicants for trainee ATCO posts.
It's also a fact that, although the terms and conditions of NATS Cadets have been significantly reduced over the past few years, NATS ATCOs are still on line to earn significant sums of money once validated, (I know cos I have access to all the NATS pay scales).
So, if you haven't got the confidence to beg, scrape and borrow to live on £10k for 9 months, don't bother applying, go and find another job which will, within 2 years, pay you in excess of £40K per year.
I didn't come through the NATS route, I, like many others, paid for all my own training and risked a great deal and for me, (and the very large of the others) it paid off.
If NATS decided that you had to repay all your training costs, if you failed at any stage of the training, how many of you would be brave enough to see through the courage of your "career ambitions".
Very few I suspect...
It's also a fact that, although the terms and conditions of NATS Cadets have been significantly reduced over the past few years, NATS ATCOs are still on line to earn significant sums of money once validated, (I know cos I have access to all the NATS pay scales).
So, if you haven't got the confidence to beg, scrape and borrow to live on £10k for 9 months, don't bother applying, go and find another job which will, within 2 years, pay you in excess of £40K per year.
I didn't come through the NATS route, I, like many others, paid for all my own training and risked a great deal and for me, (and the very large of the others) it paid off.
If NATS decided that you had to repay all your training costs, if you failed at any stage of the training, how many of you would be brave enough to see through the courage of your "career ambitions".
Very few I suspect...
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I stand to be corrected, but I don't see how someone can be on over 40k in two years, even if valid at a band 5 unit.
Once valid and on the third anniversary, yes.
Once valid and on the third anniversary, yes.
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a tad annoyed now, yes i am. having been told that you would only get an email today if you were successful in wednesday's tests, i arrived home from work to an email. i was about to dance round the house screaming, when i opened the email. only to find out it said i was unsuccessful. i just think it's slightly unfair, as 600 odd people will have got emails and thought that they were successful. but oh well, there's always next year, and it was only my first attempt after all!
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i would have, yes, because they told us we wouldnt hear anything UNLESS we were successful. so i got my hopes up when i got the email. i was quite happy not to hear anything cos its what they told me would happen.
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I'm not sure if this is the reason, but on our day in London a few candidates said they'd rather hear for definite, even if unsuccessful, so perhaps the policy was changed with hindsight.
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This is all rather interesting - making the initial selection like an open-day style. I presume that successful candidates who just turn up on the day without having submitted an application form will be asked for one after stage 1?
Have got my initial tests (2nd time round) in a couple of weeks (London).
SHT6Y
Have got my initial tests (2nd time round) in a couple of weeks (London).
SHT6Y
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i supose that might be the reason, but it just seemed unfair to me. i had been getting my sister to check for me all day and had resigned myself to the fact that i hadnt passed. then got home and my dad told me to check my emails, found i had one and got my hopes up thinkiing i had passed, then found out i hadnt.
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I am quite new to this, and only passed my final interview about a month ago, but this is really turning into another Airline wannabe scenario.
Are people in it for the love of it or just for the money and the status ?
I don't think there is much to discuss. There is an opportunity to become a controller with NATS. Part of the deal is that you have to go through a few months at 10k. Interested ? Good. Not interested, somebody else will take it.
There's people the other side of the radar investing over 60k in training without even a remote guarantee of a job in the end.
Is this 6-9 months at 10k such an insurmontable hurdle ?
If there were pilots schemes with the same conditions they would have to hold the selections at Wembley, noy in a hotel conference room.
Ok - watching a radar screen is maybe not the same as breaking through the clouds in a jet - but you get the idea
Is the 85k lure going to attract people in it only for the money ?
Maybe. They won't make it anyway, it takes more than money drive to pass the selection.
I had passed the easyjet/CTC cadets aptitude tests previously, and I can say they were a walk in the park compared to the NATS tests.
Is the low initial pay going to put off good potential candidates ?
I am leaving a 23k secure employement contract to start the college.
I am going to be on the course at the age of 28. I don't believe it's going to be a disadvantage compared to an 18 years old.
The hardest part about studying is not spending hours on a book; It's actually understanding what's on the book. That's when you learn, otherwise you're just memorising. I think I can understand things better now than 10 years ago. I wouldn't worry about adult age studying, as long as interest and committment are there !
regards
HH
Are people in it for the love of it or just for the money and the status ?
I don't think there is much to discuss. There is an opportunity to become a controller with NATS. Part of the deal is that you have to go through a few months at 10k. Interested ? Good. Not interested, somebody else will take it.
There's people the other side of the radar investing over 60k in training without even a remote guarantee of a job in the end.
Is this 6-9 months at 10k such an insurmontable hurdle ?
If there were pilots schemes with the same conditions they would have to hold the selections at Wembley, noy in a hotel conference room.
Ok - watching a radar screen is maybe not the same as breaking through the clouds in a jet - but you get the idea
Is the 85k lure going to attract people in it only for the money ?
Maybe. They won't make it anyway, it takes more than money drive to pass the selection.
I had passed the easyjet/CTC cadets aptitude tests previously, and I can say they were a walk in the park compared to the NATS tests.
Is the low initial pay going to put off good potential candidates ?
I am leaving a 23k secure employement contract to start the college.
I am going to be on the course at the age of 28. I don't believe it's going to be a disadvantage compared to an 18 years old.
The hardest part about studying is not spending hours on a book; It's actually understanding what's on the book. That's when you learn, otherwise you're just memorising. I think I can understand things better now than 10 years ago. I wouldn't worry about adult age studying, as long as interest and committment are there !
regards
HH
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gonzo - just wondering, is it possible for me to find out how far off i was, or atleast how well i did? i'm just thinking, if i was a million miles off, there's not much chance I'll do any better next year - you've either got it or you've not as my dad keeps telling me.
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"Ok - watching a radar screen is maybe not the same as breaking through the clouds in a jet"
I don't know.....watching mine every now and then gets a few people on the edge of their seats!
Anyway, I may be missing something but just a bit curious as to who is the famous dad frequently mentioned on this thread?
I don't know.....watching mine every now and then gets a few people on the edge of their seats!
Anyway, I may be missing something but just a bit curious as to who is the famous dad frequently mentioned on this thread?
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haha my dad? i've been told by a lot of people that i talk about him a lot, often completely unconnected to ATC. But if anyone out there knows him, it's Dave Higginbottom. he's not with NATS anymore, he's with BAE systems, i've heard he's actually had a few rants on here about him!