trainee salaries
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just saying there is a lot of hard working graduates out there who might not think about NATS if they don't see or hear about it.
FYI I'm going to a college near Farnborough for a careers day on the 27th. I've been told there will be up to 4000 people there.
gulp
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Are the terms and conditions of trainees likely to change between now and until the rest of 2007 courses get under way ?
In plain English, is the meagre and yet vital 10k college pay likely to be reduced in the near future ?
As there's a massive drive to recruit new fresh blood, and having seen the very generic adverts which give very little information about the job and its T's and C's, could this mean that the new starters won't be expecting much in terms of salaries and therefore the company could take advantage of that ?
"if they apply knowing they get 10k, they would do it even for 8k" and so forth...
regards
In plain English, is the meagre and yet vital 10k college pay likely to be reduced in the near future ?
As there's a massive drive to recruit new fresh blood, and having seen the very generic adverts which give very little information about the job and its T's and C's, could this mean that the new starters won't be expecting much in terms of salaries and therefore the company could take advantage of that ?
"if they apply knowing they get 10k, they would do it even for 8k" and so forth...
regards
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IMHO yes, at some point in the future the salary will go down. The 'when' is hard to say.
The story is that in the last negotiations, NATS described an eventual desire for not paying out salary whilst at the college.
Whenever I'm asked about this, I always warn candidates to really seriously consider whether deferring for a long period is a good idea, as the T+Cs might change in the intervening period.
The story is that in the last negotiations, NATS described an eventual desire for not paying out salary whilst at the college.
Whenever I'm asked about this, I always warn candidates to really seriously consider whether deferring for a long period is a good idea, as the T+Cs might change in the intervening period.
Join Date: Oct 2006
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Some have to pay !
Hi guys and gals,
In canada, student have to pay to take the ab initio training...
It's 3500 CAD for IFR (ACC) and 2500 CAD for VFR (tower). It takes about 4 month before you start making a student wage of about 2000 CAD per month, in a tower. It can take a year before you start making something in the ACC, 3500 CAD per month. And no, you don't chose between IFR and VFR, neither you choose your posting...
So please don't complain (or should we start complaining ??
)
Anyway, I love the job, and the money is good when you get validated !
In canada, student have to pay to take the ab initio training...
It's 3500 CAD for IFR (ACC) and 2500 CAD for VFR (tower). It takes about 4 month before you start making a student wage of about 2000 CAD per month, in a tower. It can take a year before you start making something in the ACC, 3500 CAD per month. And no, you don't chose between IFR and VFR, neither you choose your posting...
So please don't complain (or should we start complaining ??
)Anyway, I love the job, and the money is good when you get validated !
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10K whilst training would cheer up my daughter who is doing a degree so she can work for the NHS and earn bugger all up against a controller. She does her day at college, her evenings in OneStop and I have to support her.
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clr4takeoff
I understand what you are saying about the fact that in Canada you have to pay. Maybe you should start complaining!!
Just because one countries ATCOs have to pay does not mean that it is right or proper for NATS to do so - from Jerrichos post (number 35 in this thread), one getrs the impression that the Canadian system is not exactly one to emulate anyway!!
That fact is that cost of living in the UK is very high. The college does not provide student accomodation (even at reduced rates in the manner that university does).
The college is based in Bournemouth on the English 'Riviera' again not cheap. The college itself if a few miles out of town with no regular public transport links hence the need for a car or bike.
Joe public in the UK (and I will wager in most other countries) does not have a clue about what an ATCO does - we either wave table tennis bats in the air, or stare at computers all day whilst the 'heroes' in the cockpit do the hard work(!).
NATS is crap at projecting to the public the reality of a career as an ATCO - the PR department is either useless, or more likely, has its hands tied by a management which is increasingly anti ATCO/ATSA/ATCE.
For Paul Barron et al to turn round and cite the airlines and the fact that people pay for a pilots licence is tosh. Little Jane and Johnny grow up thinking 'I want to be a nurse/pilot/vet' etc - they have not got a clue about ATC and therefore no aspiration to do it.
The fact is that until ATC is a recognised skill, and until the myth about what pilots do compared to ATCOs is broken, then people will not want to pay for training in the UK in the numbers that NATS is trying to recruit (i.e. about 50 to 60 students a term).
This is even more prevalant when the reason that NATS is taking on so many students per term becomes apparent - not because we suddenly need a huge increase inATCOs at units, but because we expect such a large failure rate!!
Again, back to Jerrichos post - I agree entirely with him - almost anyone can obtain a pilots licence by throwing money and time at it, a hell of a lot less can pass ATCO training given the required timescales and training regime.
I understand what you are saying about the fact that in Canada you have to pay. Maybe you should start complaining!!
Just because one countries ATCOs have to pay does not mean that it is right or proper for NATS to do so - from Jerrichos post (number 35 in this thread), one getrs the impression that the Canadian system is not exactly one to emulate anyway!!
That fact is that cost of living in the UK is very high. The college does not provide student accomodation (even at reduced rates in the manner that university does).
The college is based in Bournemouth on the English 'Riviera' again not cheap. The college itself if a few miles out of town with no regular public transport links hence the need for a car or bike.
Joe public in the UK (and I will wager in most other countries) does not have a clue about what an ATCO does - we either wave table tennis bats in the air, or stare at computers all day whilst the 'heroes' in the cockpit do the hard work(!).
NATS is crap at projecting to the public the reality of a career as an ATCO - the PR department is either useless, or more likely, has its hands tied by a management which is increasingly anti ATCO/ATSA/ATCE.
For Paul Barron et al to turn round and cite the airlines and the fact that people pay for a pilots licence is tosh. Little Jane and Johnny grow up thinking 'I want to be a nurse/pilot/vet' etc - they have not got a clue about ATC and therefore no aspiration to do it.
The fact is that until ATC is a recognised skill, and until the myth about what pilots do compared to ATCOs is broken, then people will not want to pay for training in the UK in the numbers that NATS is trying to recruit (i.e. about 50 to 60 students a term).
This is even more prevalant when the reason that NATS is taking on so many students per term becomes apparent - not because we suddenly need a huge increase inATCOs at units, but because we expect such a large failure rate!!
Again, back to Jerrichos post - I agree entirely with him - almost anyone can obtain a pilots licence by throwing money and time at it, a hell of a lot less can pass ATCO training given the required timescales and training regime.
In my opinion (having witnessed new recruits for over 30 years) grads are the last people we should employ as trainee ATCOs, the majority having no interest in the job, just in getting as much money as possible; they'd be better off becoming 'something in the city'.
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Here Here!
Very poignant post there another thing! Just wondering is it possible to work overtime when you're at your initial posting working to get qualified? If so, is the pay similar?
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I was at work the other day talking to someone who applied last year, but failed stage one, because I'm doing the open test day today and wanted some more info. A couple of guys sat on the same table as us asked what ATC was, one saying "is that the people who wave those things at the planes??" I was like, yes, I'm sitting practising tests so I can wave some tabletennis bats in the air. Another asked what an ATC was if it wasnt that. I looked at him and just said "you talk to the planes". Obv, you don't literally talk to the planes, it's the pilots, but I dont think he was smart enough to even realise! The first guy later thought he was actually a "genious" as he could divide 36 by 6!
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I honestly think Anotherthing has hit the nail on the head!
Kids don't grow up wanting to be an ATCO, most don't have any real understanding of what it is; most kids interested in aviation want to be pilots, as that's what gets all the attention!
If Big Bad Barron and his boys want to make ATCO training and recruitment similar to the pilot world, they need to get their heads around that fact! In the current climate, no-one is gonna fork out thousands of pounds to train to be an ATCO, it's just not realistic, instead you'll just loose good quality candidates to other careers that don't insult their potential recruits with such pitiful wages.
(And before I get the stock response from some qualified ATCO earning £70k+ a year about 'they should want to do the job for nothing', trust me, that's easy for you to say whilst you peruse your stocks and shares portfolio.
I'm an ATCO and I love my job, but the reality is that I couldn't have done it on the salary they are now offering)
I've seen a fair few of the new recruits coming thru the centres and college for visits etc before they start at the college, and they definitely seem to be getting younger and a little less worldly by the course. It may be no bad thing and they may all come out the other end as sparkling new ATCO's. But from the pass rates i've seen recently, that definitely doesn't seem to be the case!!
If you want grown-up, mature, responsible and committed trainees, the type who have seen a little of life and are now ready to throw their everything into doing the job they love, then you need to offer a wage that at least allows them to survive!!
It's not all NATS' fault, of course they will try and get away with it if they can. I guess we can also thank the union for negotiating such a laughably poor pay deal for new recruits whilst looking after those who are already earning towards the top end of the pay scale (job for the boys me-thinks!!)
That's all I have to say about that!
Kids don't grow up wanting to be an ATCO, most don't have any real understanding of what it is; most kids interested in aviation want to be pilots, as that's what gets all the attention!
If Big Bad Barron and his boys want to make ATCO training and recruitment similar to the pilot world, they need to get their heads around that fact! In the current climate, no-one is gonna fork out thousands of pounds to train to be an ATCO, it's just not realistic, instead you'll just loose good quality candidates to other careers that don't insult their potential recruits with such pitiful wages.
(And before I get the stock response from some qualified ATCO earning £70k+ a year about 'they should want to do the job for nothing', trust me, that's easy for you to say whilst you peruse your stocks and shares portfolio.
I'm an ATCO and I love my job, but the reality is that I couldn't have done it on the salary they are now offering)
I've seen a fair few of the new recruits coming thru the centres and college for visits etc before they start at the college, and they definitely seem to be getting younger and a little less worldly by the course. It may be no bad thing and they may all come out the other end as sparkling new ATCO's. But from the pass rates i've seen recently, that definitely doesn't seem to be the case!!
If you want grown-up, mature, responsible and committed trainees, the type who have seen a little of life and are now ready to throw their everything into doing the job they love, then you need to offer a wage that at least allows them to survive!!
It's not all NATS' fault, of course they will try and get away with it if they can. I guess we can also thank the union for negotiating such a laughably poor pay deal for new recruits whilst looking after those who are already earning towards the top end of the pay scale (job for the boys me-thinks!!)
That's all I have to say about that!
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I believe that NATS should consider a graduated pay scheme with the new recruits. Why not make initial recruits pay a small amount for starting the course and then give them it back upon sucessful completion of the first module. From there each module would incur an increase in pay, indicitive of the students effort and the courses difficulty. This is how, afterall, we get paid throughout our operational lives with spine points et al.
I agree that whilst 10k does involve a reasonable amount of good financial self care, but there are people earning less than that in the Bournemouth area who cope with families etc, if YOU as an applicant feel that's unacceptable/impossible then this means it aint for you!
University students complain constantly but get on with it and get through it under much greater financial adversity so suck it up and remember why youre applying in the first place and what salary structure youll expect at the end which is far beyond that of almost every other career with similar required qualification levels!
If youre only in it for the money youre going for the wrong job!
I agree that whilst 10k does involve a reasonable amount of good financial self care, but there are people earning less than that in the Bournemouth area who cope with families etc, if YOU as an applicant feel that's unacceptable/impossible then this means it aint for you!
University students complain constantly but get on with it and get through it under much greater financial adversity so suck it up and remember why youre applying in the first place and what salary structure youll expect at the end which is far beyond that of almost every other career with similar required qualification levels!
If youre only in it for the money youre going for the wrong job!
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Well put Fidgell.
I've spent the past 3 years living on much less than 10K whilst studying, and like all other students, we just get on with it.
Also I think if you really want to get into NATS (like I do
), and become an ATCO, the money shouldn't be an issue.
I've spent the past 3 years living on much less than 10K whilst studying, and like all other students, we just get on with it.
Also I think if you really want to get into NATS (like I do
), and become an ATCO, the money shouldn't be an issue.
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That's exactly the kind of nonsensical response i'd expected!!!
How many families do you know who are living on 10k exactly?
And this comparison with university life is technically flawed: University students get student loans, access to further financial support if they find themselves in real trouble, subsidised housing, great transport links to and from their place of study, tax exemptions...and the list goes on!!
Although it refers to itself as a college, Bournemouth is in fact a place of work and so the students (employees is a more accurate term) should be rewarded accordingly.
Don't patronise these people by telling them to 'suck it up'
How many families do you know who are living on 10k exactly?
And this comparison with university life is technically flawed: University students get student loans, access to further financial support if they find themselves in real trouble, subsidised housing, great transport links to and from their place of study, tax exemptions...and the list goes on!!
Although it refers to itself as a college, Bournemouth is in fact a place of work and so the students (employees is a more accurate term) should be rewarded accordingly.
Don't patronise these people by telling them to 'suck it up'
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Even with student loans, subsidised transport and 'further funds' which are actually hard to get hold of, the figure is still way below the 10K mark. Stands at around 6K at an absolute maximum, and that is here in London.
With your point about having to take care of a family, I understand but my point was merely pointing to the fact that if someones really wants to become an ATCO he/she would naturally make allowances for it to happen. If it means taking out a bank loan for the duration of the training then so be it.
Maybe you think differently, but my opinion tells me that if you want something really badly, a little sacrifice here and there is going to be inevitable.
With your point about having to take care of a family, I understand but my point was merely pointing to the fact that if someones really wants to become an ATCO he/she would naturally make allowances for it to happen. If it means taking out a bank loan for the duration of the training then so be it.
Maybe you think differently, but my opinion tells me that if you want something really badly, a little sacrifice here and there is going to be inevitable.
Ohcirrej
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This topic pops up time and time again, and it always falls into the two camps of "suck it up buttercup, you'll do it for the love of the job" or "Oh woe it the student ATCO".
ATCO training is hard enough in it's own entity, be it an ab-initio off the street or a licenced controller changing sector/speciality. You have to be focused on the task at hand with minimal distractions to your life (Friday nights at "The Seagull" were classified as team bonding.......god that place was a dive). I honestly dislike the comparisons to the university thing, as while there are some parallels, there are also major differences.
When Gonzo and I went through CATC, I think the system was pretty damn good. Admitted, we were very well paid, but the syllabus and course structure was fine. Now I believe not only the pay thing (or lack there of) but the course has been restructured and changed. Another sad indictment to how aviation is going down the ****ter with respect to the power of the buck and decision making. I nearly had a conniption the day I heard a certain ANS's new training system was grouping information that student ATCOs were to be taught into "need to know" and "nice to know".......you should have seen what was in the "nice to now" section (was discussed in this thread)
When it comes down to it, sacrifices do have to be made (believe me, I think I'm a very good authority on that one). I guess the cash thing could be put down as a preparation thing, planning ahead and all. But I'm 100% certain that guys and gals with the goods to do the job are thinking twice about applying, or not at all simply based on some of the issues raised here.
ATCO training is hard enough in it's own entity, be it an ab-initio off the street or a licenced controller changing sector/speciality. You have to be focused on the task at hand with minimal distractions to your life (Friday nights at "The Seagull" were classified as team bonding.......god that place was a dive). I honestly dislike the comparisons to the university thing, as while there are some parallels, there are also major differences.
When Gonzo and I went through CATC, I think the system was pretty damn good. Admitted, we were very well paid, but the syllabus and course structure was fine. Now I believe not only the pay thing (or lack there of) but the course has been restructured and changed. Another sad indictment to how aviation is going down the ****ter with respect to the power of the buck and decision making. I nearly had a conniption the day I heard a certain ANS's new training system was grouping information that student ATCOs were to be taught into "need to know" and "nice to know".......you should have seen what was in the "nice to now" section (was discussed in this thread)
When it comes down to it, sacrifices do have to be made (believe me, I think I'm a very good authority on that one). I guess the cash thing could be put down as a preparation thing, planning ahead and all. But I'm 100% certain that guys and gals with the goods to do the job are thinking twice about applying, or not at all simply based on some of the issues raised here.
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For anyone who thinks 10K is ok and acceptable then I suggest you go take a look at just how much rent costs in the area. If NATS want to find subsidised housing then fair enough .
There is no way that anyone coming from a second job and who has any responsibilities financially can afford to live on 10K and if all we are going to get are kids out of university or those who have never worked then it is NATS and thus our loss.
Ok I went through some years back but those who were generally successful were definitely in the camp of second jobbers not students.
Students don't have the time to go out to get a second job to support them it isn't like university where they just work so many hours a week.
The loss of the slightly older candidate will IMHO jeopardise the quality of recruitment
There is no way that anyone coming from a second job and who has any responsibilities financially can afford to live on 10K and if all we are going to get are kids out of university or those who have never worked then it is NATS and thus our loss.
Ok I went through some years back but those who were generally successful were definitely in the camp of second jobbers not students.
Students don't have the time to go out to get a second job to support them it isn't like university where they just work so many hours a week.
The loss of the slightly older candidate will IMHO jeopardise the quality of recruitment
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Jerricho,
You have a very interesting point there...I went through selection before Christmas and in each of the stages, it appeared I was the only one there with aviation experience/interest. Was actually quite surprising as I believe to truly be a good atco you must have an interest in what you are doing!
Reading through the posted thread, it's terribly daunting to hear that some controllers have been put aside college graduates lacking both in knowledge and interest!
You have a very interesting point there...I went through selection before Christmas and in each of the stages, it appeared I was the only one there with aviation experience/interest. Was actually quite surprising as I believe to truly be a good atco you must have an interest in what you are doing!
Reading through the posted thread, it's terribly daunting to hear that some controllers have been put aside college graduates lacking both in knowledge and interest!
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I thought that the 10K was only at the college, and from what I've gathered, no one is at the college longer than 6 months.
Then the money went up when you got your first posting , then up again on validation?
louby
Then the money went up when you got your first posting , then up again on validation?
louby