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I am currently in the middle of my second application to NATS. I currently have a well paid job, a wife, a mortgage, 2 cars on finance, 1 2yo and twins on the way.
Will the 10k starting wage stop me from going through with the application? will it heck. I consider myself lucky to be getting anything should I make it to the college. It's a small sacrafice for a stable enjoyable career for life. Yes I will have to make changes, but they will be worth it in the long run.
If you want this job enough the 10k is a no-brainer.
Will the 10k starting wage stop me from going through with the application? will it heck. I consider myself lucky to be getting anything should I make it to the college. It's a small sacrafice for a stable enjoyable career for life. Yes I will have to make changes, but they will be worth it in the long run.
If you want this job enough the 10k is a no-brainer.
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If you want this job enough the 10k is a no-brainer.
As has been said, people who really want the job will make whatever arrangements are necessary - saving hard before starting, taking out a loan, borrowing from family, surviving on their spouse's income, or just plain sucking it up. But are there enough of these people? I suspect NATS doesn't think so, which is why they are pushing the misleading £85k figure for all it's worth in the recruiting bumf - to attract people who are financially motivated by big numbers instead of aviation enthusiasts.
There is a middle ground, though, between the extremes of the spotter who will willingly flagellate themself to be given a shot at their dream job and the chancer who happens to see the £85k figure in an ad in the back of FHM, and I expect that that middle ground is where the best candidates are. A percentage of these high-quality people that NATS wants have other options that don't require them to impoverish themselves and their family to prove their worth. Perhaps it should be kept in mind that these people are applying for a professional career, not trying to join a monastery.
Last edited by rodan; 21st Feb 2007 at 17:53.
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and from what I've gathered, no one is at the college longer than 6 months.
If you go area (which the majority do) you will be there 9 months.
NB - those are the minimum, if you fail any parts then obviously, you will be there longer....
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I had a shocking experience today at the open test day. At the Q&A with an ATCO bit, one guy kept asking questions such as "do you need to be good at maffs?" "do you need to be good at english to talk to people?" "how do you know if this is the career for you?"
IMO, if you need to ask the latter, it isnt the career for you! but the majority of people had obviously just heard about it on the radio, where they were apparently advertising it and giving a salary.
I managed to get my dad's name into the discussion and the ATCO i was talking to knew him
IMO, if you need to ask the latter, it isnt the career for you! but the majority of people had obviously just heard about it on the radio, where they were apparently advertising it and giving a salary.
I managed to get my dad's name into the discussion and the ATCO i was talking to knew him
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Seems to me that dangling 85k is inevitably going to attract a percentage of people motivated PURELY by the money, however surely this kind of person would not tolerate earning 10k for 9 months?
Even on 10k a year with a family etc, there is always a way to make it work. Problem being, you'll probably have to take financial risks, uproot your kids etc etc. Some folk won't be willing to take such a big chance when loved ones lives are directly affected. This is no indication of their ability or potential to be a good controller. So the 10k starting wage will stop a number of perfectly able candidates from applying which can't be beneficial to NATS. However, as has been previously mentioned, there are plenty of professions where you get paid little or nothing during training. Personally I think it stinks but it hasn't stopped me from starting in March .(Mr Barclaycard gonna take a hammering for 9 months methinks!)
Even on 10k a year with a family etc, there is always a way to make it work. Problem being, you'll probably have to take financial risks, uproot your kids etc etc. Some folk won't be willing to take such a big chance when loved ones lives are directly affected. This is no indication of their ability or potential to be a good controller. So the 10k starting wage will stop a number of perfectly able candidates from applying which can't be beneficial to NATS. However, as has been previously mentioned, there are plenty of professions where you get paid little or nothing during training. Personally I think it stinks but it hasn't stopped me from starting in March .(Mr Barclaycard gonna take a hammering for 9 months methinks!)
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Sorry, just got home from the test day in London.
Minihiggerz, I and my colleagues had to field some very daft questions today! I'm convinced they're getting dafter by the week!
MancBoy, I'm in! What do you reckon, 7% APR?
Minihiggerz, I and my colleagues had to field some very daft questions today! I'm convinced they're getting dafter by the week!
MancBoy, I'm in! What do you reckon, 7% APR?
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Well, today was an exception to be honest, because of the recent adverts placed on radio and in newspapers that more or less described a 'recruitment open day', where one could turn up and do the stage one tests without having submitted an application through the system. So we had many people just turn up and see what it was about.
It was notable that there were many more people in their 40s (possibly 50s too) than usual.
It was also notable that there were lots of people from ethnic minorities there, which is good; as ATCOs we aren't exactly what one would call an ethnically representative workforce!
However, I was concerned by the number of people there who had difficulty expressing themselves in English.
However, there were one or two who seemed very switched on and asked a lot of pertinent questions.
It was notable that there were many more people in their 40s (possibly 50s too) than usual.
It was also notable that there were lots of people from ethnic minorities there, which is good; as ATCOs we aren't exactly what one would call an ethnically representative workforce!
However, I was concerned by the number of people there who had difficulty expressing themselves in English.
However, there were one or two who seemed very switched on and asked a lot of pertinent questions.
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Gonzo, when testing are you now having to bear in mind the ability of a candidate to attain at least level 4 english proficiency?
And then are they being made aware that they will have to have lessons to get to level 6 standard.
so they can talk proper like what i do!
And then are they being made aware that they will have to have lessons to get to level 6 standard.
so they can talk proper like what i do!
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"It was also notable that there were lots of people from ethnic minorities there, which is good; as ATCOs we aren't exactly what one would call an ethnically representative workforce!"
How very true, I have always wondered why that should be the case
How very true, I have always wondered why that should be the case
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there were about 300 in manchester today apparently! i thought it was going to be on a much smaller scale.
i couldnt really think of any questions to ask, as the majority of things that I could possibly even think of asking, my dad knows the answer to! he's already told me far more than i really need to know!
one thing i was wondering tho, out of the tests, i have read that you need 70% to pass, but how does that get worked out?? 'cause it's practically impossible to do all the questions, although i did manage to do all the spatial awareness ones, so how does it get worked out??
i couldnt really think of any questions to ask, as the majority of things that I could possibly even think of asking, my dad knows the answer to! he's already told me far more than i really need to know!
one thing i was wondering tho, out of the tests, i have read that you need 70% to pass, but how does that get worked out?? 'cause it's practically impossible to do all the questions, although i did manage to do all the spatial awareness ones, so how does it get worked out??
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Whenever this debate comes up people always point out the difficulties of raising a family on £10k p.a.
On my course of 30+ people only 1 had children, and unfortunately they didn't get through the college.
I was 24 when I joined NATS and was one of the older ones on my course.
What I am saying is I think £10k p.a. for 9 months whilst studying at the college is not a lot of money however it is not an unreasonable amount for a young guy/girl to live on. And the majority of NATS students are young guys/girls.
On my course of 30+ people only 1 had children, and unfortunately they didn't get through the college.
I was 24 when I joined NATS and was one of the older ones on my course.
What I am saying is I think £10k p.a. for 9 months whilst studying at the college is not a lot of money however it is not an unreasonable amount for a young guy/girl to live on. And the majority of NATS students are young guys/girls.
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With regard to the "family" person who is aged in thier late 20s/early 30s going through the college. This is sadly not what NATS is after. They would prefer the 18 year old who can give 40+ years service to get the best return from their training investment. Sadly in a profit driven era that is what is high on the list of considerations.
But does being 18 and not having seen another job/university make for a weaker candidate and future atco?
years service to get the best return from their training investment. Sadly in a profit driven era that is what is high on the list of considerations.But does being 18 and not having seen another job/university make for a weaker candidate and future atco?
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18 year olds are more adaptible to learning. they're used to school/college and being told what to do. personally, i've just applied having been working for 6 months and god, it toughens you up!
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"But does being 18 and not having seen another job/university make for a weaker candidate and future ATCO?"
Nothing wrong with 18 year olds at all we were all once there but when you reduce the pot of potential candidates to only the very young then you can very much change the dynamic of the job.
If I am right don't you have to be over 20 to hold a radar rating or has that changed ?
Whilst salaried you cannot get a self improver loan from a bank, banks also only lend on the money you earn they do not base it on the potential earnings you may get even if they are only 9 months away. I understand the initial increase is to just 14K as well.
On £650 if you are paying out over £400 in rent where does that leave you with running a car, insurance, food and household bills.
I still say having such a low salary will prevent some very fine candidates from attending the college, not all have parents who can support them and not all will be in financial position to cope with even 3 months at that wage.
I still think it is one of the most short sighted moves we made. IF NATS provided subsidised accommodation and the amount of work compared to that of a student at Uni so second jobs were possible then fair enough but unless things have changed even more radically than I am aware then they will not be able to subsidise their income at all through additional paid employment
There are a number of organisations who pay salaries whilst they train people as well, comparing us to the airlines is unfair as has been stated before how many dream as they go through school of being an ATCO most have never even heard of the job.
Nothing wrong with 18 year olds at all we were all once there but when you reduce the pot of potential candidates to only the very young then you can very much change the dynamic of the job.
If I am right don't you have to be over 20 to hold a radar rating or has that changed ?
Whilst salaried you cannot get a self improver loan from a bank, banks also only lend on the money you earn they do not base it on the potential earnings you may get even if they are only 9 months away. I understand the initial increase is to just 14K as well.
On £650 if you are paying out over £400 in rent where does that leave you with running a car, insurance, food and household bills.
I still say having such a low salary will prevent some very fine candidates from attending the college, not all have parents who can support them and not all will be in financial position to cope with even 3 months at that wage.
I still think it is one of the most short sighted moves we made. IF NATS provided subsidised accommodation and the amount of work compared to that of a student at Uni so second jobs were possible then fair enough but unless things have changed even more radically than I am aware then they will not be able to subsidise their income at all through additional paid employment
There are a number of organisations who pay salaries whilst they train people as well, comparing us to the airlines is unfair as has been stated before how many dream as they go through school of being an ATCO most have never even heard of the job.
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Couple of facts
I've been reading through all of this and having a little chuckle at some of the views. I'm currently studying at the college, in my late twenty's with a wife, toddler and a baby due soon.
There seems to be a few people who think that people with families should stop moaning about the 10K and a few who think they should get more pay but lets clarify -
Rent is about £600 per month with bills, Nursery is about £550 and your looking at £150-£200 a month for food/petrol/insurance etc.
Now, there is a bit of help out there too, unless your a single parent you should have two wages coming into the house, you can claim tax credits and nursery allowence (about £350) you have child allowence and depending on you circumstance you can also apply for housing benefit.
Balance this with those who don't have families, they pay about £400 for B&B's about £100-£150 for food/petrol etc and usually have to travel home to see friends and families etc because they don't live in bournemouth with them.
As you can see, both camps are equally screwed with the finances so before accepting the job do your sums and see if you can manage, it is very important that when you get here you are not worrying about the finances - there are far to many other things to worry about!
Ok - now the rant, the person who said that the tarinees with families are more likely to fail. - just think, who do you think is going to be the more motivated to pass this course? and from the experience of the course I'm on it is the youngest in the classes that are really struggling, I find Having my family here help to motiveate me and me support when you get to those really low points.
As far as future courses, there is no plans to increase the wage (good joke though). they can't lower the wage as Minimum Wage means we must get £9957 pa. but they are considering the student route where you wouldn't be employed by Nats but would recieve a tax free bursary. although a good bet that it would be significantly less that £10k.
Steakpie.
There seems to be a few people who think that people with families should stop moaning about the 10K and a few who think they should get more pay but lets clarify -
Rent is about £600 per month with bills, Nursery is about £550 and your looking at £150-£200 a month for food/petrol/insurance etc.
Now, there is a bit of help out there too, unless your a single parent you should have two wages coming into the house, you can claim tax credits and nursery allowence (about £350) you have child allowence and depending on you circumstance you can also apply for housing benefit.
Balance this with those who don't have families, they pay about £400 for B&B's about £100-£150 for food/petrol etc and usually have to travel home to see friends and families etc because they don't live in bournemouth with them.
As you can see, both camps are equally screwed with the finances so before accepting the job do your sums and see if you can manage, it is very important that when you get here you are not worrying about the finances - there are far to many other things to worry about!
Ok - now the rant, the person who said that the tarinees with families are more likely to fail. - just think, who do you think is going to be the more motivated to pass this course? and from the experience of the course I'm on it is the youngest in the classes that are really struggling, I find Having my family here help to motiveate me and me support when you get to those really low points.
As far as future courses, there is no plans to increase the wage (good joke though). they can't lower the wage as Minimum Wage means we must get £9957 pa. but they are considering the student route where you wouldn't be employed by Nats but would recieve a tax free bursary. although a good bet that it would be significantly less that £10k.
Steakpie.
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If I am right don't you have to be over 20 to hold a radar rating or has that changed ?
18 to hold a student licence... I'm lucky
18 year olds are more adaptible to learning. they're used to school/college and being told what to do
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But does being 18 and not having seen another job/university make for a weaker candidate and future atco?
Remind me how old you and I were when we went through the college?
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'18 year olds are more adaptible to learning. they're used to school/college and being told what to do'
Have to disagree to some extent. When I went through the College, it was the younger members that struggled on the non multi-choice papers on the Area Course. As for being told what to do....that was hard for some of us when some instructors had not been operational for 15+ years.
Have to disagree to some extent. When I went through the College, it was the younger members that struggled on the non multi-choice papers on the Area Course. As for being told what to do....that was hard for some of us when some instructors had not been operational for 15+ years.