LL controllers in SUN EFPS shocker
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Think this whole topic about compensation for having to travel an extra 10 minutes to work is pathetic. Come on EGLL tower ATCO's join the real world, get off your ivory coated tower and into a brand new one!!!!
It wasn't too long ago half or more of the staff had to park in the north car park and travel by bus, that took about 40 minutes. You only got a spot at the base of the tower after x number of years and if you were deemed worthy!!!
Introducing EFPS and a new tower does appear a lot to take in, we all thrive on familiarity. But again you" creme de creme" contollers, use your expertise and flow the traffic to a level you are comfortable with until you feel happy.
Finally if you are still not happy apply for a transfer, EGLL radar are desperate for staff!!!!
From the comments on the thread, there doesn't appear to be a lot of sympathy coming EGLL towers way.
It wasn't too long ago half or more of the staff had to park in the north car park and travel by bus, that took about 40 minutes. You only got a spot at the base of the tower after x number of years and if you were deemed worthy!!!
Introducing EFPS and a new tower does appear a lot to take in, we all thrive on familiarity. But again you" creme de creme" contollers, use your expertise and flow the traffic to a level you are comfortable with until you feel happy.
Finally if you are still not happy apply for a transfer, EGLL radar are desperate for staff!!!!
From the comments on the thread, there doesn't appear to be a lot of sympathy coming EGLL towers way.
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Nimmer, some still do park northside, 40 minutes as you say, plus another 20 now to get to the NVCR, if it's quiet. My watch went on a 'liaison trip' to the new tower the other day, and from the 1A car park to the base of the new tower took just under 30 minutes...again, it was quiet. Ten minutes to get through security, five waiting for the minibus, and fifteen driving through the airside roads. And then of course that means maybe ten ATCOs and five ATSAs turning up at once all wanting to brief themselves before they go on shift.......but hang on, only four computers to use EBS! D'oh! 
To ensure you are ready to work for 0700, you'll have to get to 1A car park at 0620 at the latest, if not earlier.
To ensure you are ready to work for 0700, you'll have to get to 1A car park at 0620 at the latest, if not earlier.
Talking to a NATS controller mate of mine, he (and his colleagues) think that this whole issue is laughable. As somebody previously mentioned, NATS controllers are on mobile contracts, the inconvenience of moving to the other side of LHR escapes me. If I was inconvenienced in a similar manner and it took me 10 - 15 minutes longer to report for duty, so be it, my company pays
me to work, not travel to work.
Lets not talk about a "bung", how about calling it "Home to duty allowance"?
me to work, not travel to work.
Lets not talk about a "bung", how about calling it "Home to duty allowance"?
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Can you imagine the howls of derision if, when staff got a parking spot at the base of the LHR tower instead of Northside ( i.e. 2 minutes away not 40 ) NATS management tried to make them work the extra time that suddenly became theirs? 
Try living in the real world guys. And what's worse, the travel issue is losing you sympathy over the real issues of the move and EFPS introduction in one go.
Try living in the real world guys. And what's worse, the travel issue is losing you sympathy over the real issues of the move and EFPS introduction in one go.
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If that were to happen then any time compensation would be reduced/removed as appropriate.
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What about the 30 - 45 minutes it takes to get on to the main roads out of LACC if you finish a nightshift at 0700??
Or the time it will take TC controllers to find a parking space (cos there aint enough) when starting shift at 1400, then walk to the far end of the building (probably about 15-20 mins)??!!!
Or the time it will take TC controllers to find a parking space (cos there aint enough) when starting shift at 1400, then walk to the far end of the building (probably about 15-20 mins)??!!!
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My personal view is that compensation ought not to be paid in either case, but I would like somebody to please justify how such an unequitable situation could be allowed to take place.
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I do agree and sympathise with you LL guys 'n' gals over EFPS and NVCR, both at the same time is far from satisfactory. And unlike Nimmer I think it will be a lot to take in.
However, if you keep pushing the time time/travel issue you will alienate the rest of your NSL colleagues. I have heard the union is backing your claim on the basis that it might allow other units to pursue similar claims in the future which we all know is complete b**whoops!**cks. Far from the union being strong and supportive, they are being weak and most definately sending out the WRONG message to the rest of its MEMBERS. Unless the union can guarentee that other units will benefit from this (and of course it can not and will not) then it should make it clear, in no uncertain terms to the LL workers that they simply do not have a case.
Imagine if you will, driving to work one morning and discovering that somebody has suddenly placed an extra couple sets of traffic lights, a mini roundabout and, oh dear, a long term diversion due roadworks. What are you going to do about it? Who will you run to then?? Most people would set off 10 mins early. You are fast becoming the ATC equivalent to the ever increasing litigious society. Where will it stop? I don't really suppose you can answer that.
No. The union should be saying no. No support from us on this issue. Concentrate on the job in hand; continue to provide the excellent service you give to your customers, tell everybody how unhappy you are with the introduction of EFPS and NVCR. People will listen and support. But please, put your teddies back in your cots, give yourselves a bloody great big pinch and join the rest of the real world. It's quite a nice place really.
However, if you keep pushing the time time/travel issue you will alienate the rest of your NSL colleagues. I have heard the union is backing your claim on the basis that it might allow other units to pursue similar claims in the future which we all know is complete b**whoops!**cks. Far from the union being strong and supportive, they are being weak and most definately sending out the WRONG message to the rest of its MEMBERS. Unless the union can guarentee that other units will benefit from this (and of course it can not and will not) then it should make it clear, in no uncertain terms to the LL workers that they simply do not have a case.
Imagine if you will, driving to work one morning and discovering that somebody has suddenly placed an extra couple sets of traffic lights, a mini roundabout and, oh dear, a long term diversion due roadworks. What are you going to do about it? Who will you run to then?? Most people would set off 10 mins early. You are fast becoming the ATC equivalent to the ever increasing litigious society. Where will it stop? I don't really suppose you can answer that.
No. The union should be saying no. No support from us on this issue. Concentrate on the job in hand; continue to provide the excellent service you give to your customers, tell everybody how unhappy you are with the introduction of EFPS and NVCR. People will listen and support. But please, put your teddies back in your cots, give yourselves a bloody great big pinch and join the rest of the real world. It's quite a nice place really.
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Thanks for your support on that front but as we have seen in this and other threads we are wrong about that according to some on here.
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nodelay,
Please, I would be very interested to know just what it is I've been doing for the past 18 months, if not the above.
Really, I'm at a loss to explain the reaction here regarding any compensation for increased travelling time. Is anyone at another unit going to get a pay cut if it goes ahead? Or do you think perhaps it might set a precedent, a bargaining position for future negotiation if other units get moved in similar circumstances? Are some people so short sighted and obstinate that 'If I don't get it, you don't get it' rules.
tell everybody how unhappy you are with the introduction of EFPS and NVCR.
Really, I'm at a loss to explain the reaction here regarding any compensation for increased travelling time. Is anyone at another unit going to get a pay cut if it goes ahead? Or do you think perhaps it might set a precedent, a bargaining position for future negotiation if other units get moved in similar circumstances? Are some people so short sighted and obstinate that 'If I don't get it, you don't get it' rules.
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I have worked at Heathrow and Stansted. I have also recently visited the new tower and, therefore, feel in a position to add to this debate.
Firstly, I have great sympathy with my Heathrow colleagues who are having to deal with the move and the newVCR at the same time. Change is never easy and doing it this way surely adds to your frustrations.
Secondly, Stansted was at the forefront of developing EFPS and I can assure every one that it was tough. Many of us had our doubts with the system both before and after it was installed. We made mistakes with it and had our frustrations and worries. But, it has developed into a very user-friendly system that assists the way I do my job at a very busy single runway operation. From my visit to Heathrow it appears that the controllers are going through the same apprehension that we did. This seems to be mainly from the fact that you don't fully understand the system and how it will work in the real world. What is plain to see, is that you need some help from people who use the system daily so that we can help you develop it so that your training and operation becomes a little less frustrating. I'm sure that anyone (with this experience) on this forum would offer their help and I am certainly one of those (please PM).
As for making mistakes in the Simulator, that is why you are doing the Sim runs to make your transition easier. I'm sure that all the Stansted, Gatwick and now Luton controllers would admit to making mistakes when we were training and this increases the worry. I will admit that you have it harder because you are using a very realistic sim (we still have Simtac) in a very busy traffic environment, but this is why you carry out the exercises.
Having visited your new tower, I think that your worries over transfer times are well founded. What you should be asking for is that every controller parks as close to the tower as possible and that a better long term solution should be provided. On saying that what a really tremendous place to work. I thought that Stansted's tower was modern and futuristic but the new tower really shoves it into last century!! I'm sure that you will have some difficulty adapting to the new layout but do you really want to be working in the current tower when T5 opens. As the Sun article states you are high up the order in terms of controller ability and surely this means that you should have the most modern working environment and not one from the middle ages!!
A rather long post, I know, but hopefully I have provide a reasoned argument from experience. Help is out there for our colleagues at Heathrow and please ask before it's too late. I can absolutely assure you that EFPS and the new tower will he assist you for all the future difficulties (T5, mixed mode etc) that will come your way!!
Firstly, I have great sympathy with my Heathrow colleagues who are having to deal with the move and the newVCR at the same time. Change is never easy and doing it this way surely adds to your frustrations.
Secondly, Stansted was at the forefront of developing EFPS and I can assure every one that it was tough. Many of us had our doubts with the system both before and after it was installed. We made mistakes with it and had our frustrations and worries. But, it has developed into a very user-friendly system that assists the way I do my job at a very busy single runway operation. From my visit to Heathrow it appears that the controllers are going through the same apprehension that we did. This seems to be mainly from the fact that you don't fully understand the system and how it will work in the real world. What is plain to see, is that you need some help from people who use the system daily so that we can help you develop it so that your training and operation becomes a little less frustrating. I'm sure that anyone (with this experience) on this forum would offer their help and I am certainly one of those (please PM).
As for making mistakes in the Simulator, that is why you are doing the Sim runs to make your transition easier. I'm sure that all the Stansted, Gatwick and now Luton controllers would admit to making mistakes when we were training and this increases the worry. I will admit that you have it harder because you are using a very realistic sim (we still have Simtac) in a very busy traffic environment, but this is why you carry out the exercises.
Having visited your new tower, I think that your worries over transfer times are well founded. What you should be asking for is that every controller parks as close to the tower as possible and that a better long term solution should be provided. On saying that what a really tremendous place to work. I thought that Stansted's tower was modern and futuristic but the new tower really shoves it into last century!! I'm sure that you will have some difficulty adapting to the new layout but do you really want to be working in the current tower when T5 opens. As the Sun article states you are high up the order in terms of controller ability and surely this means that you should have the most modern working environment and not one from the middle ages!!
A rather long post, I know, but hopefully I have provide a reasoned argument from experience. Help is out there for our colleagues at Heathrow and please ask before it's too late. I can absolutely assure you that EFPS and the new tower will he assist you for all the future difficulties (T5, mixed mode etc) that will come your way!!
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Chip,
Of course there are those at LL who might be more amenable to EFPS if they 'understood it' more, but by no means all. I think I understand EFPS pretty well, having been on the LL EFPS Working Group since it's inception, the LL Tech Com, and been involved in various meetiings, hazard analyses and Human Factors workshops, and an EFPS instructor in our sim.
As far as I understand it, from my contacts at KK and SS, there was the usual anti- feeling prior to the training, but as the training progressed, and familiarity was gained, the general feeling became more positive. We have nearly finished our training, and the majority opinion is still against it.
I know EFPS. I know exactly what to press and when. I know which button to use to get the desired outcome. I still make mistakes in the sim. I am by no means alone.
I will agree to this though; the view of T5 from the new tower will help us. Not sure about the rest of it though!
Of course there are those at LL who might be more amenable to EFPS if they 'understood it' more, but by no means all. I think I understand EFPS pretty well, having been on the LL EFPS Working Group since it's inception, the LL Tech Com, and been involved in various meetiings, hazard analyses and Human Factors workshops, and an EFPS instructor in our sim.
As far as I understand it, from my contacts at KK and SS, there was the usual anti- feeling prior to the training, but as the training progressed, and familiarity was gained, the general feeling became more positive. We have nearly finished our training, and the majority opinion is still against it.
I know EFPS. I know exactly what to press and when. I know which button to use to get the desired outcome. I still make mistakes in the sim. I am by no means alone.
I will agree to this though; the view of T5 from the new tower will help us. Not sure about the rest of it though!
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Of course there are those at LL who might be more amenable to EFPS if they 'understood it' more, but by no means all. I think I understand EFPS pretty well, having been on the LL EFPS Working Group since it's inception, the LL Tech Com, and been involved in various meetiings, hazard analyses and Human Factors workshops, and an EFPS instructor in our sim
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I have sympathy with your problems with EFPS and the move.
HOWEVER. I cannot see what monetary compensation has got to do with this.
Other towers within NATS are airside I believe (PF), and Manchester has always been a pain in the arse to wait for, then catch the airport bus from the far car park to the tower.
So you get paid a 'bung'. What does that solve? You still have to face the problem every day.
Just smacks of moneygrabbing and frankly I am flabbergasted that our Union is backing this. It seems again the Band 5 units drive this union and everyone else, especially north of the border can take a running jump.
OK, we moved to a new tower recently that has adequate parking at the base.
If we were airside do you think the controllers at Heathrow would give 2 hoots about our problems? Also I could guarantee that our Union would not bat an eyelid at our moans and inconvenience.
Why don't the Heathrow boys not wait until the next pay negotiations when the gulf between us will no doubt be widened by another 5 - 10 grand!
Happy days!!!!
HOWEVER. I cannot see what monetary compensation has got to do with this.
Other towers within NATS are airside I believe (PF), and Manchester has always been a pain in the arse to wait for, then catch the airport bus from the far car park to the tower.
So you get paid a 'bung'. What does that solve? You still have to face the problem every day.
Just smacks of moneygrabbing and frankly I am flabbergasted that our Union is backing this. It seems again the Band 5 units drive this union and everyone else, especially north of the border can take a running jump.
OK, we moved to a new tower recently that has adequate parking at the base.
If we were airside do you think the controllers at Heathrow would give 2 hoots about our problems? Also I could guarantee that our Union would not bat an eyelid at our moans and inconvenience.
Why don't the Heathrow boys not wait until the next pay negotiations when the gulf between us will no doubt be widened by another 5 - 10 grand!
Happy days!!!!
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I don't believe anyone at LL said that money did have anything to do with it!
The WP issues due to increased travel time are completely separate to any EFPS/NVCR issue.
Chip, please feel free, any advice gratefully received!
The WP issues due to increased travel time are completely separate to any EFPS/NVCR issue.
Chip, please feel free, any advice gratefully received!
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To claim that traveling time is an issue, you will have to answer questions like..........why do staff who can afford to live closer choose to live so far from their work place?
If Management were on the ball, they would link any "traveling time" compensation to people who lived within a certain traveling time from the central area ( and make it small!!!)
A bigger issue would be what facilities are available for lunch break. Are you going to have all your lunch and drinks X-rayed or perhaps even confiscated should some security person decide that the colour of your liquid drink does not conform to some DfT guideline?
There is an issue..........but it not being looked at currently!!!
Regards,
DFC
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Gonzo
If I have misunderstood this comment by you earlier on this page then I apologise, but mentioning pay surely suggests you are thinking of money.
"Really, I'm at a loss to explain the reaction here regarding any compensation for increased travelling time. Is anyone at another unit going to get a pay cut if it goes ahead?"
I don't trust this set of management, and we were told during the banding negotiations that we were 'lucky' that we were getting any pay rise (were you told that?), so why not a cut? Your 'compensation' has to come from somewhere.
Also
"Or do you think perhaps it might set a precedent, a bargaining position for future negotiation if other units get moved in similar circumstances?"
No I don't agree. There will no doubt be some model/equation which works for some units and not for others (we can all guess which ones will be successful). We moved tower and 'compensation' did not enter our minds (maybe we have less of a money grabbing mindset). If it had one of my colleagues is high up on the BEC, and I can see him laughing at us now for the suggestion. You see we all live at the foot of your pedestal in the real world!
Yes I am cynical. I don't trust management, the union nor the Band 4/5 units that put 2 fingers up to us last time, and now you are looking for sympathy and compensation.
If I have misunderstood this comment by you earlier on this page then I apologise, but mentioning pay surely suggests you are thinking of money.
"Really, I'm at a loss to explain the reaction here regarding any compensation for increased travelling time. Is anyone at another unit going to get a pay cut if it goes ahead?"
I don't trust this set of management, and we were told during the banding negotiations that we were 'lucky' that we were getting any pay rise (were you told that?), so why not a cut? Your 'compensation' has to come from somewhere.
Also
"Or do you think perhaps it might set a precedent, a bargaining position for future negotiation if other units get moved in similar circumstances?"
No I don't agree. There will no doubt be some model/equation which works for some units and not for others (we can all guess which ones will be successful). We moved tower and 'compensation' did not enter our minds (maybe we have less of a money grabbing mindset). If it had one of my colleagues is high up on the BEC, and I can see him laughing at us now for the suggestion. You see we all live at the foot of your pedestal in the real world!
Yes I am cynical. I don't trust management, the union nor the Band 4/5 units that put 2 fingers up to us last time, and now you are looking for sympathy and compensation.
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Surely 10 Atcos can't all be plugging in at once at 7am.So what do the spare ones do.(EBS?)
There also must a certain amount of EG/late breaks as well.Do Management say anything?However if you rattle their cage?
There are units that are on airside and have to go through security.That process can take 20mins sometimes,especially with heavy traffic or if they throw your lunch in the bin,because it isn't PC.
Perhaps all units that are airside,with staff getting the treatment just to get to work,should get union support for compensation.Somehow i doubt it.
Maybe the Creme should just pitch up for work at the usual time,and close the airport for half an hour,while they fight their way in.It would concentrate the minds wonderfully.Don't think they would have the nerve to try it.
There also must a certain amount of EG/late breaks as well.Do Management say anything?However if you rattle their cage?
There are units that are on airside and have to go through security.That process can take 20mins sometimes,especially with heavy traffic or if they throw your lunch in the bin,because it isn't PC.
Perhaps all units that are airside,with staff getting the treatment just to get to work,should get union support for compensation.Somehow i doubt it.
Maybe the Creme should just pitch up for work at the usual time,and close the airport for half an hour,while they fight their way in.It would concentrate the minds wonderfully.Don't think they would have the nerve to try it.
Last edited by throw a dyce; 28th Nov 2006 at 20:45. Reason: the tablets