Airservices Australia Global Search for ATCs
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Dunno bout Tower - here is a centre/tma roster 5 week example:
(add another 2 shifts on overtime somewhere - that is considered 'reasonable' and expected. ) That would leave you about 11 days off out of the 35. There are 5 night shifts (double shift - morning/doggo) over the 5 weeks period. Some are better, some are worse.
S OFF
S 1300-2100
M 0700-1500
T 0530-1200/2230-0600
W -
T OFF
F OFF
S 0700-1500
S 0530-1200/2230-0600
M -
T OFF
W OFF
T 1130-1930
F 1500-2300
S 1300-2100
S 1500-2300
M OFF
T OFF
W 0630-1400
T 0530-1200/2230-0600
F -
S OFF
S OFF
M 1300-2100
T 1130-1930
W 0600-1400
T OFF
F OFF
S 1130-1930
S 0630-1430
M 0530-1200/2230-0600
T -
W OFF
T OFF
F 0630-1430
S 0530-1200/2230-0600
S -
(add another 2 shifts on overtime somewhere - that is considered 'reasonable' and expected. ) That would leave you about 11 days off out of the 35. There are 5 night shifts (double shift - morning/doggo) over the 5 weeks period. Some are better, some are worse.
S OFF
S 1300-2100
M 0700-1500
T 0530-1200/2230-0600
W -
T OFF
F OFF
S 0700-1500
S 0530-1200/2230-0600
M -
T OFF
W OFF
T 1130-1930
F 1500-2300
S 1300-2100
S 1500-2300
M OFF
T OFF
W 0630-1400
T 0530-1200/2230-0600
F -
S OFF
S OFF
M 1300-2100
T 1130-1930
W 0600-1400
T OFF
F OFF
S 1130-1930
S 0630-1430
M 0530-1200/2230-0600
T -
W OFF
T OFF
F 0630-1430
S 0530-1200/2230-0600
S -
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****su,
Are the two extra shifts of overtime to cover sickness or because there are not enough people to cover the roster. How much notice do you normally get. Other posters have suggested that extra duty is routinely knocked back without penalty. Any further info on this would be appreciated.
Nimflt
Are the two extra shifts of overtime to cover sickness or because there are not enough people to cover the roster. How much notice do you normally get. Other posters have suggested that extra duty is routinely knocked back without penalty. Any further info on this would be appreciated.
Nimflt
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Are the two extra shifts of overtime to cover sickness or because there are not enough people to cover the roster.
Some groups constantly run short staffed so may need to cover a line or two with additional duty. Others only required due sickness or when staff pulled off an opertional line for other duties.
How much notice do you normally get.
Other posters have suggested that extra duty is routinely knocked back without penalty. Any further info on this would be appreciated.
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The 'reasonable overtime' requirement stemmed from an Industrial Relations decision:
Transcript of Decision
One (de-identified) legal interpretation of the current ruling:
--------
As far as how busy nights shifts are, well that is pretty subjective - if you have worked in the Middle East I would suggest the night shifts are relatively quiet - unless you are working the big procedural sectors which by nature of the time zone change are their busiest time of day in some cases at 2300-0400 local.
------
Why is there a lot of overtime? Staffing levels have been inadequate - the recruitment program that this thread is based upon is recognition of that to some degree. Also, ATC as a career is not as attractive to Australia graduates any more as much better long term remuneration prospects are available now - with more sociable hours, as well as the competition from some 'progressive' employers. For example Graduates (early 20's) who succeed in employment in Investment Banking start at around 70-75K.
Transcript of Decision
One (de-identified) legal interpretation of the current ruling:
In relation to the vexed issue of “reasonable overtime” I reproduce the ‘model clause’ that the Australian Industrial Relations Commission endorsed in its Working Hours Test Case (or “Reasonable Hours” case) (2002) 651 AILR 4-648.
“1.1 Subject to clause 1.2 an employer may require an employee to work reasonable overtime at overtime rates.
1.2 An employee may refuse to work overtime in circumstances where the working of such overtime would result in the employee working hours which are unreasonable having regard to:
1.2.1 any risk to employee health and safety;
1.2.2 the employee's personal circumstances including any family responsibilities;
1.2.3 the needs of the workplace or enterprise;
1.2.4 the notice (if any) given by the employer of the overtime and by the employee of his or her intention to refuse it; and
1.2.5 any other relevant matter.”
This is the clause that the Full Bench endorsed for inclusion in Awards, thus it is a safety net clause and could be described as a current community standard.
This clause has been on the table during the Certified Agreement negotiations. Airservices are willing to include the clause with the exception of the word “refuse”. They proposed alternative words and these were still the subject of discussion when the negotiations were suspended.
In the Reasonable Hours decision, the Commission limited any concept of "reasonableness" with respect to hours of work to a combination of ordinary plus overtime hours. They rejected the notion that ordinary hours may, in cases, be unreasonable. As such the Commission rejected the ACTU application to prohibit the employer requiring an employee to work unreasonable hours of work. In addition the Commission rejected a proposition that, where employees are required to work extreme hours they should be provided with additional time off to recover from that work.
We have a situation where the model clause referred to above has not yet been expressly incorporated into the terms and conditions of employment for Airservices employees, although this is our intention, and it should not be problematic given the Full Bench authority on this matter.
The doctrine of precedent does not strictly apply in industrial proceedings – but consistency of decision making is necessary to ensure the authority of tribunals and uniformity of wages and conditions- therefore, individual members of the Commission treat earlier decisions as highly persuasive. The Commissioner Sheather decision of 1989 was a decision specific to the employment of air traffic controllers. It predates the development of the current Fatigue Management knowledge. I accept that the decision is 15 years old, however, until it is appealed, challenged, overturned or a new standard is established in the Certified Agreement (our intention) it remains a relevant decision for the purposes of this matter.
“1.1 Subject to clause 1.2 an employer may require an employee to work reasonable overtime at overtime rates.
1.2 An employee may refuse to work overtime in circumstances where the working of such overtime would result in the employee working hours which are unreasonable having regard to:
1.2.1 any risk to employee health and safety;
1.2.2 the employee's personal circumstances including any family responsibilities;
1.2.3 the needs of the workplace or enterprise;
1.2.4 the notice (if any) given by the employer of the overtime and by the employee of his or her intention to refuse it; and
1.2.5 any other relevant matter.”
This is the clause that the Full Bench endorsed for inclusion in Awards, thus it is a safety net clause and could be described as a current community standard.
This clause has been on the table during the Certified Agreement negotiations. Airservices are willing to include the clause with the exception of the word “refuse”. They proposed alternative words and these were still the subject of discussion when the negotiations were suspended.
In the Reasonable Hours decision, the Commission limited any concept of "reasonableness" with respect to hours of work to a combination of ordinary plus overtime hours. They rejected the notion that ordinary hours may, in cases, be unreasonable. As such the Commission rejected the ACTU application to prohibit the employer requiring an employee to work unreasonable hours of work. In addition the Commission rejected a proposition that, where employees are required to work extreme hours they should be provided with additional time off to recover from that work.
We have a situation where the model clause referred to above has not yet been expressly incorporated into the terms and conditions of employment for Airservices employees, although this is our intention, and it should not be problematic given the Full Bench authority on this matter.
The doctrine of precedent does not strictly apply in industrial proceedings – but consistency of decision making is necessary to ensure the authority of tribunals and uniformity of wages and conditions- therefore, individual members of the Commission treat earlier decisions as highly persuasive. The Commissioner Sheather decision of 1989 was a decision specific to the employment of air traffic controllers. It predates the development of the current Fatigue Management knowledge. I accept that the decision is 15 years old, however, until it is appealed, challenged, overturned or a new standard is established in the Certified Agreement (our intention) it remains a relevant decision for the purposes of this matter.
As far as how busy nights shifts are, well that is pretty subjective - if you have worked in the Middle East I would suggest the night shifts are relatively quiet - unless you are working the big procedural sectors which by nature of the time zone change are their busiest time of day in some cases at 2300-0400 local.
------
Why is there a lot of overtime? Staffing levels have been inadequate - the recruitment program that this thread is based upon is recognition of that to some degree. Also, ATC as a career is not as attractive to Australia graduates any more as much better long term remuneration prospects are available now - with more sociable hours, as well as the competition from some 'progressive' employers. For example Graduates (early 20's) who succeed in employment in Investment Banking start at around 70-75K.
Last edited by Shitsu_Tonka; 6th Dec 2006 at 22:56.
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thanks.
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I noticed that the challenger (?) crash investigation in the States is eyeing the split-shift as a possible contributary cause (yes, I know it's not technically a split-shift but it's in to work twice on the same day). The controller apparently did an early and was back in for the doggo without managing to get any sleep in between. What do you guys think of the split-shift? Does it affect your performance? Is there any move to ditch it?
ap
ap
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Just my personal opinion but I think the morning-night shift turn around came into being because the traffic levels dictated that you spoke to bugger all aircraft and slept most of the night, meaning that fatigue wasn't a problem. Problem was that on Bight Group in Melbourne and Tops in Brisbane they work their butts off on night shifts. And I know many things have changed since I have been gone but you can bet your bottom dollar that a large proportion of new recruits will be sent to those groups, so the issue of Morning-Doggo turnarounds is certainly an important thing to consider for any new joiners.
Personally having lived that life of quick turnarounds, and experienced a different life where I get a minimum of 15 hours off between shifts, I can't see myself going back to a roster that is worked in Oz. That of course is just my personal feeling and I may not at the end of the day have a choice, but morning-doggos (and any other turnarounds of 10 or 11 hours) to me are a form of slow very painful torture. As someone said though, they think our roster of M,M (0730-1430),A,A (1430-2230), N,N (1030-0730), Sleep day, 3 days off is horrible, so I guess it is all personal opinion. Each to their own.
Personally having lived that life of quick turnarounds, and experienced a different life where I get a minimum of 15 hours off between shifts, I can't see myself going back to a roster that is worked in Oz. That of course is just my personal feeling and I may not at the end of the day have a choice, but morning-doggos (and any other turnarounds of 10 or 11 hours) to me are a form of slow very painful torture. As someone said though, they think our roster of M,M (0730-1430),A,A (1430-2230), N,N (1030-0730), Sleep day, 3 days off is horrible, so I guess it is all personal opinion. Each to their own.
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Heard from a reliable source yesterday that AsA had received 70 applications, several of which were expats, one from Italy and many from Sth Africa. There are 33 vacancies immediately available to fill.
Recent ab initio course graduated just 3 controllers! There must be something very wrong with the selection, training or, in these times of full employment, the available pool of talent.
Recent ab initio course graduated just 3 controllers! There must be something very wrong with the selection, training or, in these times of full employment, the available pool of talent.
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There must be something very wrong with the selection, training or, in these times of full employment, the available pool of talent.
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Not sure which course you are referring to. The last course through the college and the one about to leave have certainly graduated more than this. There was an earlier course that had a high failure rate but I understand this was at least partly due to personality conflicts.
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Plus they no longer pay TA. Worth a lot of bickies. I was on the last course to get it. Was like a pay cut when I got to the centre even though I technically got paid nearly double base pay.
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Thanks ANSA. It's a difficult call I agree to put one system in for all places. In my present post I get a fairly obscene amount of time off, although a lot of it is by chance, and not rostered. Trouble is, for the most part there just isn't the traffic to keep it interesting. I've been at work sometimes for a whole shift & spoken to just one aircraft! I do think that a minimun 12hrs between shifts is a good guide, though. Especially if the minute you're in from work you're set upon by vicious ankle-biters!
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To be fair you can't really compare apples with oranges. Australia has a lot of unique factors that can make things interesting even if traffic levels aren't as high as what we are used to here. For one most of the country has no or very limited radar coverage. Secondly the ATC system used is very labour intensive, and whilst it has its advantages over the steam driven systems we use here, it needs to be "fed" a lot more stuff than here. Finally, there is a different culture there when it comes to incidents, so guys have to be a lot more careful about how they do things and what they say, than they do here. Here, basically if you retain separation at all times you're sweet. In Australia there is a myriad of reasons why you can get stood down from duty, so you are more on edge because of that reason.
I think if you do a search through this thread and other related ones you will find references to actual traffic figures. So you can decide for yourself what the answer to your question is. As I said if I answer it as I have in the past I will be the bad guy again.
I think if you do a search through this thread and other related ones you will find references to actual traffic figures. So you can decide for yourself what the answer to your question is. As I said if I answer it as I have in the past I will be the bad guy again.