Airservices Australia Global Search for ATCs

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Honestly I can't see how on the FPC roster example you gave, you can have that sort of life. I mean you are at work 3 evenings in a row followed by a quick turnaround onto a morning shift, and then after only two days off you go back to work, and a day later you work a morning doggo turnaround. Sorry but never managed to get a lot of gym beer or shags in with that sort of schedule. I guess its a different perspective on things.

Another reason I left (and I am sure you will tell me this has changed, so feel free) was that I could never acquit all my leave each year, and ended up taking scraps of leave whenever I could be released which was hardly ever. And as far as long service leave goes, forget it. Here every controller has to acquit all of their leave every year, even if that means that leave is covered with overtime. That is, depending on how you take your leave, 3 two week periods of leave, and a one month period of leave, every year guaranteed. As I said I never was able to use the leave I had in Australia, and it just kept building up and up, till I left and it was paid out. I'm sure this has changed now, and thats great if it has, but if it hasn't, then it is another consideration for people considering the move.

As I have said before there are a lot of positives to a move to Oz ATC, but people considering the move also need to be aware of the downside.

[DirtyPierre]

ANSA,

Our current EBA requires you to take 5 weeks leave each year in that year (although you can still accrue it). I'm the Admin specialist in Brissie for my group, and with the other admin specialists we have drawn up a leave allocation plan for 2007. That is, all leave is allocated for staff in every group for 2007 in Brissie already.

Every staff member had to submit their preference for 5 weeks minimum leave for 2007. There is a priority system, and the admin specialists for each group had to have their leave allocation plan in by September which is then approved by the Ops manager. This has been done.

In my group, I have 3 leave lines to work with, and I have 3 troops on leave nearly throughout the entire year. Over Xmas, I can use my Group Training specialist to cover off some leave, and maybe even myself and the Checkie as well. Over this Xmas holiday period I have up to 5 guys off on leave at the same time by doing this.

So things have changed in that regard. Next July I will commence the leave planning for 2008.

As for overtime, reasonable overtime is 1 per month (I think). However, even this amount can be gotten out of if you're canny.

As for my lifestyle. Well I live 50 minutes drive from Main Beach, Southport (top end of the Gold Coast). That's how far away from a half decent surf I am. I could fit a surf in before every arvo shift, my 2 days off, and after my mornings if I want too. My aging body doesn't quite handle that. Some guys live on the GC or Sunshine Coast and commute.

Shags - well still not enough, but coming home after the doggo can be an enjoyable experience (thanks Mrs DP).

Gym at work which we can use during our shift if time permits, but certainly before or after the shift.

Watching sport. Just had the first cricket test of the Ashes. Broncos, Reds, Lions play about 14 home matches a year each. Occasional Test match (league or union). Add the Roar (Brissie soccer team) and we've got football pretty well covered.

Life is pretty good, no wonder I've been in the job since 1983.

[Dubya]

I'm an Oz experienced Air Trafficer with ADC, TWR, APPR, ENR

I approached AsA a short while ago about getting back into the business. Currently I am flying jets with VB. And I never get to see my family because of arduous rosters and endless overnights.
the lady in HR said it was too hard to get an experienced controller back int he system coz I would need to be recruited into enroute, but I have twr endorsements, and then to cross stream involves endless rheems of paperwork and approvals and signatures... I ended the conversation with "It hasn't changed, has it?"... "What?" she asked... "The endless amounts of bs that AsA seems to generate to do anything good for itself".....
Yes, they have phoned me back, and emailed me... and I have yet to decide, but this thread is very interesting...l keep it up...

gidday Goose... you're looking well....

[bekolblockage]

Originally Posted by ****su_Tonka

Reasonable overtime was then determined to be one 8 hours shift every fortnight

That was indeed the ruling by the IRC back in about '88 when our over-time ban was attempted. The alternative action was of course to cheerfully accept the overtime and then feel quite fatigued later in the fortnight.

[DirtyPierre]

The other thing is, if you accept the overtime, then ring in sick, you don't even have to fill in a leave form cause it's not a core rostered shift. It doesn't accrue as sick leave either.

[BOK2GO]

Hi Guys

Both my wife and I are App/Twr controllers in Cape Town and have applied for jobs with ASA. We've been following the discussion closely with great interest. Thank you for hi-lighting both the positive and negative of what we're getting ourselves into.

Our move though is crime related and we feel that this is no climate to raise children in. Stats indicate a murder every 22 minutes, a rape every 30 seconds. Let's not talk about the car jacking and house breaks. Enough of that.

We'll follow the discussion closely and again thanks for the topic.

PS. Word of mouth has it that there has been approximately 25 applications from South Africa.

[Jerricho]

Originally Posted by DirtyPierre

if you accept the overtime, then ring in sick

.........and leave your mates short staffed.

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

Well from what I have heard about ATNS management from my Sth African colleagues here in the sandpit, you should be as well prepared for ASA management as anyone. I am guessing you guys should be very attractive to ASA as firstly you have experience on a system basically the same as TAAATS (although are you still using paper strips?), and ASA know that due to the unfortunate situation back home in SA you won't be leaving in a hurry.

I hope it all works out for you, good luck

[aluminium persuader]

Hey Jerricho

If the situation is that bad I feel that it's management letting the guys down, not the individual. Safety has to be the priority and if you're fatigued you have a responsibility to not work. Trouble is, the person who is too fatigued to work is usually the last person to realise the fact. It is something that needs to be legislated for, or the inevitable result will be an aluminium shower somewhere, sometime.

[Jerricho]

AP thanks for your thoughts mate

Let's just say Nav Canada's view on Fatigue and Fatigue Management is a little different to AirServices and NATS.............actually it's a whole lot different. You wouldn't believe me if I told you.

[Quokka]

ANSA... you are 100% correct!

Pierre... in Melbourne it seems that the ATCs who don't accept overtime become targets... unless that controller happens to be a friend of the Operations Manager in question... as one of the outsiders-looking-in told me a few months ago... you don't want to go to the Centres, unless you belong to one of the social cliques.

I had a brief chat with a Centre Manager the other day and suggested that they might get a few experienced controllers from overseas if the offer included top FPC salary, not bottom. There appeared to be no interest in this at all... and a stated assumption that there was enough incentive for the controllers to return on bottom FPC for the "lifestyle" not the salary.

[tusitala]

global search

not sure who is running recruitment for air services, but have had application in for sometime. Have residency and tower rating, but still waiting. Keep being moved around. If they are short, it is no wonder, because they seem to be so slow in dealing with people. 8-9 weeks for responses, after that has passed, you contact them to be informed application misplaced!!

[BlueSkye]

ATNS to ASA application form:
Rating - check;
Validation - check;
Work experience - check;
Eurocat X - check;
Potplant management experience - CHECK;
Work to death experience - check;
Nice weather - check;
RHD cars - check;
Control for charity - check (should be no cheque);
George Greegan fan - hmmmm;
Damn fine sheilas - Fixed by Fosters;
Speak funny - in a different way, so check;
Barbie - toy by Mattel, also check.

Ready GOOOOOOOOOOOO!!

[5miles]

Originally Posted by Quokka

ANSA... you are 100% correct!
Pierre... in Melbourne it seems that the ATCs who don't accept overtime become targets... unless that controller happens to be a friend of the Operations Manager in question... as one of the outsiders-looking-in told me a few months ago... you don't want to go to the Centres, unless you belong to one of the social cliques.

What a load of cr*p. Never felt pressured into accepting overtime except out of my concern for my colleagues. Nothing to do with management overlords.
Those that invariably say no have there own reasons, and none from the groups that I've worked with felt victimised. Besides, with 3 Ops Mngrs this year alone, they don't have time to form targets.

As for social cliques, no different to any other workplace. There's a few tossers and holier than thous, but far outweighed by average Tom & Harrys (No Dicks allowed). If you're into football, racing, sporting aviation, golf or whatever, you'll find some with common interests.

On another matter - weren't Australian ATC's going to go over to South Africa a couple of years ago? Looks like thre traffic will all be the other way now!?

Yes. The option of seconding Oz staff to S.A. was considered a few years ago. Even put my own hand up if Cape Town was the destination. Going on BOK2GO' s post, looks like even that part of S.A. isn't safe anymore. I heard the transfers were canned because Ozzies were going to be too expensive.

[SM4 Pirate]

Originally Posted by tusitala

not sure who is running recruitment for air services, but have had application in for sometime. Have residency and tower rating, but still waiting. Keep being moved around. If they are short, it is no wonder, because they seem to be so slow in dealing with people. 8-9 weeks for responses, after that has passed, you contact them to be informed application misplaced!!

If there is one thing I have learnt in the last decade; keep bloody haselling them... Don't assume they haven't cocked it up; Consipracy or cock-up I'll take cock-up 6/4 on.

The Recruiting is done by "People and Change" which is the greatest irony; no good dealing with people (fullstop) and couldn't get a shag in a Solomons Island knock shop with a governement issued credit card; when it comes to change (They are not cardboard cut-outs...)

[BurglarsDog]

Some say that first impressions count. I havent worked for ASA but my experience of the company is as follows;

The ASA recruitment website curently requests expressions of interest for short / long term contract work involved with teaching ICAO procedures to International students. Having been doing this both east and west of Brissy recently I thought great and duly fired off details etc. Background research / homework reveiled that ASA had been to DFS (been there done that) in Frankfurt looking at a joint venture; targeting markets in India / China. So I was hopefull of at least a reply. But Nada! Not even a Dear John or thanks for the details etc etc. So I called and was answered by HR who couldnt tell me anything about either the project , timings or anything ATC related! Very negative experience! Through mates working within ASA I tracked down the team leader only to be told the same !! No feedback no encouragement nothing. By comparison when applying to the UK for a similar consultancy position the company came back immediately with questions of me and answers to my queries. I appreciate that deals have to be signed off before a carrot can be dangled, but when a resource is offered in reply to an Ad, you would expect a little more interest - after all, they placed the advertisment. I discussed this with a colleague, (reasonable bloke) ex ASA ,now doing very well (IFATCA briefings etc) in Europe and to quote him " ASA are a pr*ck of an employer. They have absolutely no regard for their employees and they cultivate an atmosphere of mutual mistrust and antagonism between workers and managers. - But perhaps that was a one off experience. Still like em to be a bit more proactive when potential 6 figure staff are offering their services though.

DogGone

[TrafficTraffic]

Overtime is just that - time over and above your restored requirements - if you are not up to it - dont do it.


Interesting to read about AsA pressuring people into doing OT - never heard of it - doesnt mean it doesnt happen - just havent heard of it.

How about a good Eurocontrol story about pressure and ridiculous rules.

Not too long ago when there was discomfort at the station cos the word had passed around - there was to be no pay increase and there even existed the possibilty of a pay reduction (gasp).

The Union decided on a step by step plan to escalate industrial action the first being a work-to-rule* (*now the rules were going to be acceptance of traffic and working to the 'safe' specified traffic levels - which EDYY never did - always took more and more and more and still do thus by working to the rules, would be causing massive delays).......now management seized upon this and said that if you were to work contrary to how how you normally work you would be breaking Eu employement laws.....the analogy that I normally drive 20 km/h above the speed limit then decided to reduce to the speed limit and therefore break the law when driving at the speed limit.



I am a little amazed at how people come out of the woodwork with bad things to say about working in Aus but they either havent worked here for a while - left with an axe to grind - or get their info 3rd hand.

AsA isnt perfect - when somebody finds the perfect job - please post here first by all means.


TT

[AirNoServicesAustralia]

TT, I think you'll find by doing a search on here, people haven't just come out of the woodwork. To simplify things maybe a positives versus negatives will help people decide whether it is axe grinding or real problems within the organisation.

Positives - by average Australian standards, a good salary
- Good facilities at the workplace
- Modern equipment to work with.
- A high standard of training
- A good superannuation scheme
- In a country offering a great lifestyle.

Negatives - By International standards, not a great salary
- The way controllers are treated in reponse to things such as coordination failures. In Australia, stood down, in most other places, logged and later counselled to avoid it happening again (maybe if serious enough error, otherwise just logged).
- 10 and 11 hour turnarounds on rosters and particularly Morning-Doggo turnarounds is far from everyones cup of tea.
- Rising cost of living, especially cost of housing.
- High taxes.
- Managers out of touch with the coalface controllers (but to be fair ASA is not the lone ranger on that one).
- Lack of career furthering opportunities to people considered "just" a controller, whereas those who stay away from the console doing anything other than controlling traffic get all the opportunities.

[BOK2GO]

AirNoservicesAus....

Cape Town transitions to paperless at the end of the year although the Joburg and Cape Town have been working stripless unofficially due to staff shortages (not enough ATSA's). With deadwood now having moved out of senior management the whole country should be paperless in the next six months.
As far as the rest of ATNS management, things have and are improving and I think we could do a lot worse. Cpt is well staffed and we seldom work more than 30 hours a week. Sounds like the holiday might be over once we get to Oz.

[TrafficTraffic]

Some excellent points ANSA some I agree with others I am not so sure and some are applicable most places rising cost of living especially housing
As I said I dont think AsA is perfect - but then where is?
My main question for anybody that was thinking of joining would be what is AsA's motivation? After a round of job reductions in Non-operational areas it was suggested that the ATCs and other operational staff were the next to go through a rationalization process and now we are looking at recruiting from overseas - doesnt make any sense.
TT