Ridiculous and Dangerous RT
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Hants, UK
Posts: 1,064
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I must confess to the facetious thought when presented with:
"We're a little late today"
to answer:
"Well you should have taken off earlier"
but I have never transmitted it!
"We're a little late today"
to answer:
"Well you should have taken off earlier"
but I have never transmitted it!
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
ATC (occasionally) do forget about you and need nudging (fact) - and it isn't unknown going into MAN to be almost overhead one of the holding points high (due very often to sector workload) to be thrown over to approach PDQ with neither a holding instruction or heading off the fix (I know... clearance limit...etc). Guys and girls - like flighdeck crew - you are not infallible which isn't the impression given by many of the contributors to threads and some of attitudes displayed in this ATC forum. And before you all shout 'what does this (apparent) pilot know about life behind the console' I've been there and got all the tee-shirts.
I personally never ask for a direct routing if I'm running late. I rely on the ability of the controller to provide that whenever possible as a matter of routien. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that you (generic) are quite aware of the pressures on crews to keep the operation on schedule and the huge financial implications to airlines, big and small, of fuel burn affected by everything from ground movements to stepped climbs to levels allocated.
I personally never ask for a direct routing if I'm running late. I rely on the ability of the controller to provide that whenever possible as a matter of routien. Nevertheless, I'm not sure that you (generic) are quite aware of the pressures on crews to keep the operation on schedule and the huge financial implications to airlines, big and small, of fuel burn affected by everything from ground movements to stepped climbs to levels allocated.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think we getting closer to the point now.
Firstly, with regard to the being handed over at MAN as you approach the holding fix without any further instructions: That's my understanding of the whole point of the 'clearance limit' idea. When they're too busy to get around to giving you an instruction by that point, they know that you will automatically enter the hold. I really can't see what the problem is. Even if you start the turn to join the hold as you check in with Approach, if they don't want you to hold, they'll give you a heading. What's the problem!!! I won't accept that a 30 degree turn in the wrong direction before App get around to giving a heading for downwind will make any difference to your fuel state or airborne time. I just don't see what the problem is. Sure ATC forget about us occassionally, but I would guess that it is mostly in cases like these when there is an alternative instructions inherent in the clearance to proceed to the holding fix.
Secondly, the pressures that crews are under to keep schedules or minimise fuel burns is for us to deal with. NOT ATC! We have one little aircraft to worry about, they have an awful lot more! It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I discovered that ATC didn't give a monkeys about my airlines fuel policy. And if you think you need to tell them the reason for your desire to proceed direct somewhere you really, really have missed the point. It seems ridiculously obvious to me that proceeding direct saves time, fuel and money. The reason for you wanting to save time, fuel or money has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Whether it's 'cos your passengers will get grumpy, your boss will shout at you or you'll miss last orders at your local, who cares! I don't. And neither do ATC. So keep it off the radio!
Firstly, with regard to the being handed over at MAN as you approach the holding fix without any further instructions: That's my understanding of the whole point of the 'clearance limit' idea. When they're too busy to get around to giving you an instruction by that point, they know that you will automatically enter the hold. I really can't see what the problem is. Even if you start the turn to join the hold as you check in with Approach, if they don't want you to hold, they'll give you a heading. What's the problem!!! I won't accept that a 30 degree turn in the wrong direction before App get around to giving a heading for downwind will make any difference to your fuel state or airborne time. I just don't see what the problem is. Sure ATC forget about us occassionally, but I would guess that it is mostly in cases like these when there is an alternative instructions inherent in the clearance to proceed to the holding fix.
Secondly, the pressures that crews are under to keep schedules or minimise fuel burns is for us to deal with. NOT ATC! We have one little aircraft to worry about, they have an awful lot more! It wouldn't bother me in the slightest if I discovered that ATC didn't give a monkeys about my airlines fuel policy. And if you think you need to tell them the reason for your desire to proceed direct somewhere you really, really have missed the point. It seems ridiculously obvious to me that proceeding direct saves time, fuel and money. The reason for you wanting to save time, fuel or money has nothing whatsoever to do with it. Whether it's 'cos your passengers will get grumpy, your boss will shout at you or you'll miss last orders at your local, who cares! I don't. And neither do ATC. So keep it off the radio!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 160
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why that's the nicest thing anyones said to me today!
Thanks!!
Don't quite know what being in a paddy is though??
Oh well. I'll take it to mean that I was throwing the proverbial wobbly. I've calmed down again now.
Thanks!!
Don't quite know what being in a paddy is though??
Oh well. I'll take it to mean that I was throwing the proverbial wobbly. I've calmed down again now.
More than just an ATCO
Join Date: Jul 1999
Location: Up someone's nose
Age: 75
Posts: 1,768
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
After getting a direct routing a small show of appreciation would help, and also ensure a repeat. Swissair kept Maastricht UAC in chocolate for many years, and a seat on a Danair flight was also guaranteed
That aside, most controlers will always do their best to give a direct routing, if only on the basis that it will get you out of his/her sector ASAP and let someone else worry about you. If your request is denied, that is the end of the matter; whining about it will probably only get you special treatment
That aside, most controlers will always do their best to give a direct routing, if only on the basis that it will get you out of his/her sector ASAP and let someone else worry about you. If your request is denied, that is the end of the matter; whining about it will probably only get you special treatment
Join Date: May 2005
Location: uk
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of my colleagues got called a W@nk*r on the R/T the other day by a Doncaster inbound because he wouldn't give it a direct to the FNY because it would take it outside controlled airspace and we could all see that there was a lot of military out there. I think it was a Thompson.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Greystation
Posts: 1,086
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Bandbox4Training - I think you'll find its not Thomson asking for that but another airline with a base at HI, the Thomson's scream for much lower to get that "straight in" on 26 guaranteed, and then get pi$$ed when we can't give it 
If its for a "valid" reason then I'll have a go at getting a direct co-ordinated through - ie like last night to get the Glasgow inbound there before the runway shut for repairs for the entire night, and recently to Stansted before the works started. But thats to try and save any diverts to somewhere less desireable and ATC are usually aware of these closures so are on the case before the a/c gets anywhere near UK airspace.
My typical response is "see what we can do" even if I know full well its not available as it'll stop any further pestering which has happened on numerous occasions! However being bribed with KitKat's has recently started......you know who you are
soggy sandwich won it though
If its for a "valid" reason then I'll have a go at getting a direct co-ordinated through - ie like last night to get the Glasgow inbound there before the runway shut for repairs for the entire night, and recently to Stansted before the works started. But thats to try and save any diverts to somewhere less desireable and ATC are usually aware of these closures so are on the case before the a/c gets anywhere near UK airspace.
My typical response is "see what we can do" even if I know full well its not available as it'll stop any further pestering which has happened on numerous occasions! However being bribed with KitKat's has recently started......you know who you are
soggy sandwich won it though
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Southampton
Posts: 99
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hiya Folks
(I apologise for the long reply, please feel free to move on!)
Have read the thread with interest and as a TMA controller I have to agree that it is quite unbearably irritating when continually asked for direct routings. I take enormous pride in doing my best for every aircraft and most of my colleagues will do the same. (There are one or two exceptions but I'm not going to go there...). I did like the comment about the CRM though. The pilots have very limited Situational Awareness beyond a few miles and the RT. Of course if we could see more pilots in the Ops Rooms that would help.....
I would agree with many of the postings on here so far. If the RT is quiet then you can always ask, but please bear in mind that we are complex beasts and even if the RT is full of tumble-weed the controller may, in fact, be working bl##dy hard. So please don't take it personally if the reply is a 'negative'.
It is also true that on occasion a controller may forget about an aircraft. Usually this occurs when the a/c is free from conflicts and a complex situation is occupying their attention elsewhere in the sector. So again, please bear with us.
Before I finish though I'd like to give you the single most irrational and inconsiderate example I have personally experienced. It was 2am during a relatively busy night shift this Summer (although there are fewer movements we have far fewer controllers so the workload can be quite high.) I had been controlling for almost 4 hours and looking forward to a nap. Gatwick is still a busyish place at such times with a continual stream of inbounds. As most will appreciate there is very rarely any holding and high speed till 15DME is the norm. The final 2 a/c were heading for MID and would arrive at the same time. I'm sure neither was aware of the other as they were converging from a 35 degree angle at a range of 50 miles.
Based on their relative speeds (both medium jets) I decided who was going the be no.1 (the faster and the only one I was speaking to at the time) so gave him 300kts+. The second a/c arrived on my frequency and I applied a speed of 280kts or less.
"Why do we need to slow down?" was the response.
"Due traffic" I replied.
Given further descent they started to converge at MID and I further reduced the no. 2 a/c to 250kts.
"Are we no.2?" was the reply (No acknowledgement of the speed)
"Affirm, you are no.2 to the traffic in your 10 o clock, range 10 miles"
"We may as well reduce to 220 then"
Short silence... followed by.....
"Interesting way to control..." HOW DARE HE!!!!!
Now I'm sure that the pilot had been awake for a similarly long period and was yearning for his bed. But in that moment my blood simply boiled. I had to try extremely hard to control myself and was proud for resisting the temptation to lower myself to his level. I've no doubt my tone changed dramatically and my reply left the pilot in little doubt that it had upset me. I presume the other pilot in the cockpit was aware of the exchange as they took the RT from that point on.
Both a/c landed and I was soooo tempted to get the pilot to ring me when they got in but chose not to. My Supervisor had a chat with me as I was obviously fuming and they were only too well aware of the exchange.
Shortly afterwards I was laying down in my camp bed and spent the next 2 hours staring at the ceiling before struggling up for the 5 o clock rush. Ill-rested and irritated.
I'm known to be one of the most chilled out controllers that work in my area but that single unnecessary, unhelpful exchange, at a most ungodly hour, could have had much more serious implcations. We discussed filing on the pilot but eventually it was decided best to just move on...
Perhaps that was a mistake as I doubt the pilot ever realised how their words had affected me. And I think about it frequently. So PLEASE just think before you transmit. We are under pressure too, and we are supposed to be a team. Controllers and pilots have the same goal.
If you get the opportunity to visit us, please do.
If your company don't encourage or allow fam flights, then get onto them!
The more we can understand about eachother's situation the better for both worlds.
I thank you, counselling session finished!
PS. I still have the flight number in question, so if it was you....... why you little..!
(I apologise for the long reply, please feel free to move on!)
Have read the thread with interest and as a TMA controller I have to agree that it is quite unbearably irritating when continually asked for direct routings. I take enormous pride in doing my best for every aircraft and most of my colleagues will do the same. (There are one or two exceptions but I'm not going to go there...). I did like the comment about the CRM though. The pilots have very limited Situational Awareness beyond a few miles and the RT. Of course if we could see more pilots in the Ops Rooms that would help.....
I would agree with many of the postings on here so far. If the RT is quiet then you can always ask, but please bear in mind that we are complex beasts and even if the RT is full of tumble-weed the controller may, in fact, be working bl##dy hard. So please don't take it personally if the reply is a 'negative'.
It is also true that on occasion a controller may forget about an aircraft. Usually this occurs when the a/c is free from conflicts and a complex situation is occupying their attention elsewhere in the sector. So again, please bear with us.
Before I finish though I'd like to give you the single most irrational and inconsiderate example I have personally experienced. It was 2am during a relatively busy night shift this Summer (although there are fewer movements we have far fewer controllers so the workload can be quite high.) I had been controlling for almost 4 hours and looking forward to a nap. Gatwick is still a busyish place at such times with a continual stream of inbounds. As most will appreciate there is very rarely any holding and high speed till 15DME is the norm. The final 2 a/c were heading for MID and would arrive at the same time. I'm sure neither was aware of the other as they were converging from a 35 degree angle at a range of 50 miles.
Based on their relative speeds (both medium jets) I decided who was going the be no.1 (the faster and the only one I was speaking to at the time) so gave him 300kts+. The second a/c arrived on my frequency and I applied a speed of 280kts or less.
"Why do we need to slow down?" was the response.
"Due traffic" I replied.
Given further descent they started to converge at MID and I further reduced the no. 2 a/c to 250kts.
"Are we no.2?" was the reply (No acknowledgement of the speed)
"Affirm, you are no.2 to the traffic in your 10 o clock, range 10 miles"
"We may as well reduce to 220 then"
Short silence... followed by.....
"Interesting way to control..." HOW DARE HE!!!!!
Now I'm sure that the pilot had been awake for a similarly long period and was yearning for his bed. But in that moment my blood simply boiled. I had to try extremely hard to control myself and was proud for resisting the temptation to lower myself to his level. I've no doubt my tone changed dramatically and my reply left the pilot in little doubt that it had upset me. I presume the other pilot in the cockpit was aware of the exchange as they took the RT from that point on.
Both a/c landed and I was soooo tempted to get the pilot to ring me when they got in but chose not to. My Supervisor had a chat with me as I was obviously fuming and they were only too well aware of the exchange.
Shortly afterwards I was laying down in my camp bed and spent the next 2 hours staring at the ceiling before struggling up for the 5 o clock rush. Ill-rested and irritated.
I'm known to be one of the most chilled out controllers that work in my area but that single unnecessary, unhelpful exchange, at a most ungodly hour, could have had much more serious implcations. We discussed filing on the pilot but eventually it was decided best to just move on...
Perhaps that was a mistake as I doubt the pilot ever realised how their words had affected me. And I think about it frequently. So PLEASE just think before you transmit. We are under pressure too, and we are supposed to be a team. Controllers and pilots have the same goal.
If you get the opportunity to visit us, please do.
If your company don't encourage or allow fam flights, then get onto them!
The more we can understand about eachother's situation the better for both worlds.
I thank you, counselling session finished!
PS. I still have the flight number in question, so if it was you....... why you little..!
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: this side of the hill
Posts: 127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hiya Folks
(I apologise for the long reply, please feel free to move on!)
Have read the thread with interest and as a TMA controller I have to agree that it is quite unbearably irritating when continually asked for direct routings. I take enormous pride in doing my best for every aircraft and most of my colleagues will do the same. (There are one or two exceptions but I'm not going to go there...). I did like the comment about the CRM though. The pilots have very limited Situational Awareness beyond a few miles and the RT. Of course if we could see more pilots in the Ops Rooms that would help.....
I would agree with many of the postings on here so far. If the RT is quiet then you can always ask, but please bear in mind that we are complex beasts and even if the RT is full of tumble-weed the controller may, in fact, be working bl##dy hard. So please don't take it personally if the reply is a 'negative'.
It is also true that on occasion a controller may forget about an aircraft. Usually this occurs when the a/c is free from conflicts and a complex situation is occupying their attention elsewhere in the sector. So again, please bear with us.
Before I finish though I'd like to give you the single most irrational and inconsiderate example I have personally experienced. It was 2am during a relatively busy night shift this Summer (although there are fewer movements we have far fewer controllers so the workload can be quite high.) I had been controlling for almost 4 hours and looking forward to a nap. Gatwick is still a busyish place at such times with a continual stream of inbounds. As most will appreciate there is very rarely any holding and high speed till 15DME is the norm. The final 2 a/c were heading for MID and would arrive at the same time. I'm sure neither was aware of the other as they were converging from a 35 degree angle at a range of 50 miles.
Based on their relative speeds (both medium jets) I decided who was going the be no.1 (the faster and the only one I was speaking to at the time) so gave him 300kts+. The second a/c arrived on my frequency and I applied a speed of 280kts or less.
"Why do we need to slow down?" was the response.
"Due traffic" I replied.
Given further descent they started to converge at MID and I further reduced the no. 2 a/c to 250kts.
"Are we no.2?" was the reply (No acknowledgement of the speed)
"Affirm, you are no.2 to the traffic in your 10 o clock, range 10 miles"
"We may as well reduce to 220 then"
Short silence... followed by.....
"Interesting way to control..." HOW DARE HE!!!!!
Now I'm sure that the pilot had been awake for a similarly long period and was yearning for his bed. But in that moment my blood simply boiled. I had to try extremely hard to control myself and was proud for resisting the temptation to lower myself to his level. I've no doubt my tone changed dramatically and my reply left the pilot in little doubt that it had upset me. I presume the other pilot in the cockpit was aware of the exchange as they took the RT from that point on.
Both a/c landed and I was soooo tempted to get the pilot to ring me when they got in but chose not to. My Supervisor had a chat with me as I was obviously fuming and they were only too well aware of the exchange.
Shortly afterwards I was laying down in my camp bed and spent the next 2 hours staring at the ceiling before struggling up for the 5 o clock rush. Ill-rested and irritated.
I'm known to be one of the most chilled out controllers that work in my area but that single unnecessary, unhelpful exchange, at a most ungodly hour, could have had much more serious implcations. We discussed filing on the pilot but eventually it was decided best to just move on...
Perhaps that was a mistake as I doubt the pilot ever realised how their words had affected me. And I think about it frequently. So PLEASE just think before you transmit. We are under pressure too, and we are supposed to be a team. Controllers and pilots have the same goal.
If you get the opportunity to visit us, please do.
If your company don't encourage or allow fam flights, then get onto them!
The more we can understand about eachother's situation the better for both worlds.
I thank you, counselling session finished!
PS. I still have the flight number in question, so if it was you....... why you little..!
(I apologise for the long reply, please feel free to move on!)
Have read the thread with interest and as a TMA controller I have to agree that it is quite unbearably irritating when continually asked for direct routings. I take enormous pride in doing my best for every aircraft and most of my colleagues will do the same. (There are one or two exceptions but I'm not going to go there...). I did like the comment about the CRM though. The pilots have very limited Situational Awareness beyond a few miles and the RT. Of course if we could see more pilots in the Ops Rooms that would help.....
I would agree with many of the postings on here so far. If the RT is quiet then you can always ask, but please bear in mind that we are complex beasts and even if the RT is full of tumble-weed the controller may, in fact, be working bl##dy hard. So please don't take it personally if the reply is a 'negative'.
It is also true that on occasion a controller may forget about an aircraft. Usually this occurs when the a/c is free from conflicts and a complex situation is occupying their attention elsewhere in the sector. So again, please bear with us.
Before I finish though I'd like to give you the single most irrational and inconsiderate example I have personally experienced. It was 2am during a relatively busy night shift this Summer (although there are fewer movements we have far fewer controllers so the workload can be quite high.) I had been controlling for almost 4 hours and looking forward to a nap. Gatwick is still a busyish place at such times with a continual stream of inbounds. As most will appreciate there is very rarely any holding and high speed till 15DME is the norm. The final 2 a/c were heading for MID and would arrive at the same time. I'm sure neither was aware of the other as they were converging from a 35 degree angle at a range of 50 miles.
Based on their relative speeds (both medium jets) I decided who was going the be no.1 (the faster and the only one I was speaking to at the time) so gave him 300kts+. The second a/c arrived on my frequency and I applied a speed of 280kts or less.
"Why do we need to slow down?" was the response.
"Due traffic" I replied.
Given further descent they started to converge at MID and I further reduced the no. 2 a/c to 250kts.
"Are we no.2?" was the reply (No acknowledgement of the speed)
"Affirm, you are no.2 to the traffic in your 10 o clock, range 10 miles"
"We may as well reduce to 220 then"
Short silence... followed by.....
"Interesting way to control..." HOW DARE HE!!!!!
Now I'm sure that the pilot had been awake for a similarly long period and was yearning for his bed. But in that moment my blood simply boiled. I had to try extremely hard to control myself and was proud for resisting the temptation to lower myself to his level. I've no doubt my tone changed dramatically and my reply left the pilot in little doubt that it had upset me. I presume the other pilot in the cockpit was aware of the exchange as they took the RT from that point on.
Both a/c landed and I was soooo tempted to get the pilot to ring me when they got in but chose not to. My Supervisor had a chat with me as I was obviously fuming and they were only too well aware of the exchange.
Shortly afterwards I was laying down in my camp bed and spent the next 2 hours staring at the ceiling before struggling up for the 5 o clock rush. Ill-rested and irritated.
I'm known to be one of the most chilled out controllers that work in my area but that single unnecessary, unhelpful exchange, at a most ungodly hour, could have had much more serious implcations. We discussed filing on the pilot but eventually it was decided best to just move on...
Perhaps that was a mistake as I doubt the pilot ever realised how their words had affected me. And I think about it frequently. So PLEASE just think before you transmit. We are under pressure too, and we are supposed to be a team. Controllers and pilots have the same goal.
If you get the opportunity to visit us, please do.
If your company don't encourage or allow fam flights, then get onto them!
The more we can understand about eachother's situation the better for both worlds.
I thank you, counselling session finished!
PS. I still have the flight number in question, so if it was you....... why you little..!
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Swanwick, England
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You should have got him to ring in.
I've done it when I was accused of leaving an aircrafts descent too late so that he was not going to be able to make the level by restriction for the next sector.
I, however, had not left it too late! I had merely waited for him to request descent knowing full well that the guy knew what to expect before TNT. He did get a stepped descent but never actually levelled off during it.
And, just after I had transferred him to manchester I saw that he had easily made the level before the level by point so there was no problem anyway.
What made me fume was his tone over the R/T to me after I had worked bloody hard to make sure ALL my aircraft had made their respective levels.
Of course this guy thought he was the only aircraft in the sky.
When he rang in I was still on radar so he kindly left his mobile number with the desk.
As soon as I was relieved I made that call. The guy was still in the aircraft on stand. I have never heard such a guy change from sarcasm one minute to a wet blanket the next. He couldn't be more apologetic if he tried.
I just said that I didn't appreciate his tone over the r/t when he didn't know how hard we were working behind the scenes. I invited him for a visit but sad to say I never saw him in the ops room.
In fact, the only pilots we see at Swanwick are trainees from Cranfield or wherever. Waste of time. We need people from the coalface .
I've done it when I was accused of leaving an aircrafts descent too late so that he was not going to be able to make the level by restriction for the next sector.
I, however, had not left it too late! I had merely waited for him to request descent knowing full well that the guy knew what to expect before TNT. He did get a stepped descent but never actually levelled off during it.
And, just after I had transferred him to manchester I saw that he had easily made the level before the level by point so there was no problem anyway.
What made me fume was his tone over the R/T to me after I had worked bloody hard to make sure ALL my aircraft had made their respective levels.
Of course this guy thought he was the only aircraft in the sky.
When he rang in I was still on radar so he kindly left his mobile number with the desk.
As soon as I was relieved I made that call. The guy was still in the aircraft on stand. I have never heard such a guy change from sarcasm one minute to a wet blanket the next. He couldn't be more apologetic if he tried.
I just said that I didn't appreciate his tone over the r/t when he didn't know how hard we were working behind the scenes. I invited him for a visit but sad to say I never saw him in the ops room.
In fact, the only pilots we see at Swanwick are trainees from Cranfield or wherever. Waste of time. We need people from the coalface .
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: Swanwick, England
Posts: 244
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sorry slight change of thread.
I was out recently with some old school friends and there was a guy there who was a pilot for Excel.
Anyway, he came out with the most ridiculous comment from a pilot I have ever heard.
"We don't need Air Traffic anyway, you are there just as an advisory service".
Ok mate, so you would be able to taxi round Heathrow on your own along with everyone else could you?
Muppet, oh yes, and of course Excel don't fly into Heathrow do they? Bless.
That comment showed me what a lot of pilots think of ATC.
I asked him if he ever visited an ATC unit.
The answer.......................................
Shanwick.
Not quite a busy complex Radar environment like TC or Swanwick.
And he is about four feet tall.
I was out recently with some old school friends and there was a guy there who was a pilot for Excel.
Anyway, he came out with the most ridiculous comment from a pilot I have ever heard.
"We don't need Air Traffic anyway, you are there just as an advisory service".
Ok mate, so you would be able to taxi round Heathrow on your own along with everyone else could you?
Muppet, oh yes, and of course Excel don't fly into Heathrow do they? Bless.
That comment showed me what a lot of pilots think of ATC.
I asked him if he ever visited an ATC unit.
The answer.......................................
Shanwick.
Not quite a busy complex Radar environment like TC or Swanwick.
And he is about four feet tall.
I say there boy
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: Somewhere
Posts: 1,065
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
"We don't need Air Traffic anyway, you are there just as an advisory service".
Ok mate, so you would be able to taxi round Heathrow on your own along with everyone else could you?
Muppet, oh yes, and of course Excel don't fly into Heathrow do they? Bless.
That comment showed me what a lot of pilots think of ATC.
Ok mate, so you would be able to taxi round Heathrow on your own along with everyone else could you?
Muppet, oh yes, and of course Excel don't fly into Heathrow do they? Bless.
That comment showed me what a lot of pilots think of ATC.
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Crinkley Bottom
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Most if not all airlines are pro fam flights but since you guys have to do them on a day off then suddenly they shift down the line of priorities which is understandable since on a day off the last thing you want to do is listen in on a headset to R/T!
Think it is down to ATCOs to arrange individually?
Think it is down to ATCOs to arrange individually?
Join Date: Apr 2001
Location: Near Stalyvegas
Age: 78
Posts: 2,022
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Mr Sole
I'm an ATSA. I work Tower and Flight Planning. I am SAMOS trained. I "think" that I [possibly] could contribute to quite a lot of problem solving solutions. I HAVE done Fam Flights in the past [with a LOT of effort, and IN MY OWN TIME], but the one's on offer at Manchester are orientated [and offered, quite properly], to ATCOs. But if the ATCOs don't take them up, there is not a way [that I am aware of] that a [keen] ATSA can take a Fam Flight at short[ish] notice. This is in no way meant to denegrate the guys who have laboured long and hard to get the ATSAs Fam Flights.
IF I could arrange a Fam Flight on an "Individual" basis, I would be first in the queue. Unfortunately, we have to have "Official" trips because of Insurance.
watp,iktch
I'm an ATSA. I work Tower and Flight Planning. I am SAMOS trained. I "think" that I [possibly] could contribute to quite a lot of problem solving solutions. I HAVE done Fam Flights in the past [with a LOT of effort, and IN MY OWN TIME], but the one's on offer at Manchester are orientated [and offered, quite properly], to ATCOs. But if the ATCOs don't take them up, there is not a way [that I am aware of] that a [keen] ATSA can take a Fam Flight at short[ish] notice. This is in no way meant to denegrate the guys who have laboured long and hard to get the ATSAs Fam Flights.
IF I could arrange a Fam Flight on an "Individual" basis, I would be first in the queue. Unfortunately, we have to have "Official" trips because of Insurance.
watp,iktch
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Crinkley Bottom
Posts: 108
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I get the impression that the only way fam flights are going to be done nowadays results in the initial planning being done at grass roots level i.e. ATCO or ATSA vs Flight Crew and then taking the idea to management so that the 'i's are dotted and the 't's are dashed and any paperwork that needs done gets done.
Problem is that the ATCO and the pilot need to know each other!
Maybe PPRuNe could be used as a way where ATCOs/ATSAs that want fam flights could post requests (onto a sticky or even a forum) and willing flight crew members could take them up on their offer?
Chiglet - why don't you see what your watch manager suggests if you enquire about arranging a fam flight? I am sure with the number of MAN based operators then there must be some deals or arrangements that are in place with at least some operators or has the fam flight died a slow death?
Problem is that the ATCO and the pilot need to know each other!
Maybe PPRuNe could be used as a way where ATCOs/ATSAs that want fam flights could post requests (onto a sticky or even a forum) and willing flight crew members could take them up on their offer?
Chiglet - why don't you see what your watch manager suggests if you enquire about arranging a fam flight? I am sure with the number of MAN based operators then there must be some deals or arrangements that are in place with at least some operators or has the fam flight died a slow death?
Last edited by Mr R Sole; 9th Nov 2006 at 23:27.
Just a few things to consider from the flightdeck perspective which haven't been covered before:
a) Your fellow controllers in nearby FIRs are not as good as you are. By simply asking Spanish ATC for a direct at times you can knock off 60nm. They rarely seem to offer them but frequently can when requested. Some nations controllers do not provide the situational awareness and extra pieces of info that British ones do and it is prudent to ask about holds and speeds and such and such. You often spend the majority of the day in non-UK airspace and you often have to do a little of the ATCO's jobs for them (I know that will make you bristle but its true). You become aware that the aircraft 6 miles ahead and 2000ft above is going to the same destination and you offer to slow down 100nm before descent in order to make the arrival flow better. There are dozens of similar scenarios. The point is - its sometimes hard to adjust back to the UK environment where service levels are high, RT loading is busier and airspace more complex. I think that my RT changes between FIRs. German, Dutch, British - I'll keep quieter, be more ICAO standard, expect fewer directs and expect to pretty much follow the SID/STAR. In Southern Europe this might be less so. I think this is a factor which causes occasional lapses where pilots have still got their Italian RT heads on when back in the UK.
b) The average experience levels on the flightdecks have decreased. With all the expansion in recent years there are always going to be about 10% of the FO's who are in their first year of operation. They'll start Standard but as time goes on, confidence grows, experience and knowledge remain low and so you get some eyebrow raising RT at times. This improves with time and your patience is appreciated.
c) I've used the "we're two hours late tonight - is there any chance..." preface myself when seeking a direct. By doing so I am NOT trying to say "I have a good reason for wanting this so I expect you to really try hard to give it to me". What I AM trying to say is "I know I shouldn't be asking for this, please don't take it the wrong way but I'm asking today when I normally don't because...". So I think you getting irate by the "we're running late" preface is totally the opposite result to that which is intended by the pilot. He's really trying to say "sorry for pestering". Communication being a highly imperfect skill in us all at times.
d) RT technology is ridiculously poor. Why in 2006 are we still using analogue radio which can be stepped on, receives breakthrough, can be jammed and requires the correct readback of a 6 digit number? Its madness, it contributes greatly to fatigue and is one of the worst areas of technical safety in modern aviation. We should all be using noise cancelling headsets as well.
e) Everyone has a bad RT say now and again. Don't take it personally as I don't think there are two professions that work so closely together with such consistent aims in such a professional way and yet never meet one another. I've never had an ATCO on my jumpseat since 911 which means none of the FO's I fly with ever have. I've been lucky to spend some time in Bournemouth radar room and a couple of military towers and been an AirGround airfield monkey. Many people flying large jets have never received any RT instruction beyond their PPL course. There really ought to be a regulatory requirement for us to have a day per year rostered into a radar room. It would be far far more valuable than being shown how to open the door every year and how a fire extinguisher still works.
Cheers
WWW
a) Your fellow controllers in nearby FIRs are not as good as you are. By simply asking Spanish ATC for a direct at times you can knock off 60nm. They rarely seem to offer them but frequently can when requested. Some nations controllers do not provide the situational awareness and extra pieces of info that British ones do and it is prudent to ask about holds and speeds and such and such. You often spend the majority of the day in non-UK airspace and you often have to do a little of the ATCO's jobs for them (I know that will make you bristle but its true). You become aware that the aircraft 6 miles ahead and 2000ft above is going to the same destination and you offer to slow down 100nm before descent in order to make the arrival flow better. There are dozens of similar scenarios. The point is - its sometimes hard to adjust back to the UK environment where service levels are high, RT loading is busier and airspace more complex. I think that my RT changes between FIRs. German, Dutch, British - I'll keep quieter, be more ICAO standard, expect fewer directs and expect to pretty much follow the SID/STAR. In Southern Europe this might be less so. I think this is a factor which causes occasional lapses where pilots have still got their Italian RT heads on when back in the UK.
b) The average experience levels on the flightdecks have decreased. With all the expansion in recent years there are always going to be about 10% of the FO's who are in their first year of operation. They'll start Standard but as time goes on, confidence grows, experience and knowledge remain low and so you get some eyebrow raising RT at times. This improves with time and your patience is appreciated.
c) I've used the "we're two hours late tonight - is there any chance..." preface myself when seeking a direct. By doing so I am NOT trying to say "I have a good reason for wanting this so I expect you to really try hard to give it to me". What I AM trying to say is "I know I shouldn't be asking for this, please don't take it the wrong way but I'm asking today when I normally don't because...". So I think you getting irate by the "we're running late" preface is totally the opposite result to that which is intended by the pilot. He's really trying to say "sorry for pestering". Communication being a highly imperfect skill in us all at times.
d) RT technology is ridiculously poor. Why in 2006 are we still using analogue radio which can be stepped on, receives breakthrough, can be jammed and requires the correct readback of a 6 digit number? Its madness, it contributes greatly to fatigue and is one of the worst areas of technical safety in modern aviation. We should all be using noise cancelling headsets as well.
e) Everyone has a bad RT say now and again. Don't take it personally as I don't think there are two professions that work so closely together with such consistent aims in such a professional way and yet never meet one another. I've never had an ATCO on my jumpseat since 911 which means none of the FO's I fly with ever have. I've been lucky to spend some time in Bournemouth radar room and a couple of military towers and been an AirGround airfield monkey. Many people flying large jets have never received any RT instruction beyond their PPL course. There really ought to be a regulatory requirement for us to have a day per year rostered into a radar room. It would be far far more valuable than being shown how to open the door every year and how a fire extinguisher still works.
Cheers
WWW
