What do you know about SACTA???
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NATS Projects
And how many are actually valid, currently operational ATC people from the whole spectrum of NATS ATCUs ?
I don't recall ANYONE on my watch (or the watches I spin with) being asked to get involved from the start.
History tells us that when projects go wrong in CAA / NATS it's because nobody asked the REAL end user what was required at the begining and called them for their opinions when it was too late to do anything.
BEX
I don't recall ANYONE on my watch (or the watches I spin with) being asked to get involved from the start.
History tells us that when projects go wrong in CAA / NATS it's because nobody asked the REAL end user what was required at the begining and called them for their opinions when it was too late to do anything.
BEX
ATC project staff pray for operational staff, who will make the effort to get involved, and not only give their opinion, but just as importantly, listen to the background as to why project decisions have been made, and who can help make hard choices about change. Those who make the effort will be listened to. Sometimes, unfortunately, it's just a case of 'show me how it works, so that I can tell you where you have gone wrong.'
The interaction between project staff, and operational users must be a two way one, and I am often astounded by the hard work, and effort that is put in, by those who do get involved, both by operational, and non operational staff.
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Wise words, and I agree with them....
Ahem, the problem is whilst some of us "operational people" would very much like to get involved at an early stage, we are being prevented from doing so.
Rgds BEX
Ahem, the problem is whilst some of us "operational people" would very much like to get involved at an early stage, we are being prevented from doing so.
Rgds BEX
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That's true BEX,
And you know what? The one peice of kit that operational ATCOs have been involved with from day one at my unit looks to be absolutely cracking, it apears to do everything we want it to do, and will be a considerable improvement on the kit it's replacing.
There's more: Allowing the operational ATCOs to have more 'ownership' of the project, means that it is not being going operational until it's working at 100%. One would think that would be a stipulation for every project, of course, but oh no!
yesspam, in the early stages of the project to which I refer, some ATCOs were sent on the same training courses set up by the manufacturer as our own engineers and project managers. Enlightened thinking by someone there. Allows us all to understand the capabilities and limitations. It also allows the project to be aiming towards ATC requirements as the priority.
And you know what? The one peice of kit that operational ATCOs have been involved with from day one at my unit looks to be absolutely cracking, it apears to do everything we want it to do, and will be a considerable improvement on the kit it's replacing.
There's more: Allowing the operational ATCOs to have more 'ownership' of the project, means that it is not being going operational until it's working at 100%. One would think that would be a stipulation for every project, of course, but oh no!
yesspam, in the early stages of the project to which I refer, some ATCOs were sent on the same training courses set up by the manufacturer as our own engineers and project managers. Enlightened thinking by someone there. Allows us all to understand the capabilities and limitations. It also allows the project to be aiming towards ATC requirements as the priority.
Last edited by Gonzo; 6th Sep 2006 at 10:30.
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Oh and Livelink 
BD
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I'm not aware of any project that was totally useless, apart from OPM at Swanwick perhaps Oh and Livelink
Bex
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I'm not aware of any project that was totally useless, apart from OPM at Swanwick perhaps Oh and Livelink
Oh and Livelink
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Yesspam, totally agree about the "pray for operationally valid staff to get involved" and I do think that there is far too much of an engineering solution presented to ATC when its too late. However, how many operational ATC staff posess the project and detailed FDP systems knowledge? There is no simple formula, its a mix!
SACTA in 2010, yeah right - now where is my flying pig...................
Actually my flying pig is probably looking for a working iTEC!
The current method of managing projects does not seem to work.
SACTA in 2010, yeah right - now where is my flying pig...................
Actually my flying pig is probably looking for a working iTEC!The current method of managing projects does not seem to work.
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EFPS seems good to excellent.
NAS upgrade - most resilient NAS has ever been.
Most if not all adaptation deliveries seem spot on
Swanwick must be a success as it shifts more traffic than anywhere else
LTCC is a ^%$&*&g excellent busy unit with a fantastic Mode S toy - first in the world - well done!
SACTA - er no
iTEC - er less
what have I missed?
NAS upgrade - most resilient NAS has ever been.
Most if not all adaptation deliveries seem spot on
Swanwick must be a success as it shifts more traffic than anywhere else
LTCC is a ^%$&*&g excellent busy unit with a fantastic Mode S toy - first in the world - well done!
SACTA - er no
iTEC - er less
what have I missed?
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Yesspam, totally agree about the "pray for operationally valid staff to get involved" and I do think that there is far too much of an engineering solution presented to ATC when its too late. However, how many operational ATC staff posess the project and detailed FDP systems knowledge? There is no simple formula, its a mix!
SACTA in 2010, yeah right - now where is my flying pig................... Actually my flying pig is probably looking for a working iTEC!
The current method of managing projects does not seem to work.
SACTA in 2010, yeah right - now where is my flying pig...................
Actually my flying pig is probably looking for a working iTEC!The current method of managing projects does not seem to work.
Never did get a bite on msg#23
ex-egll
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As for FDP we could buy the version DFS are working on with INDRA There's a common thread developing here that doesn't include the letters L or M BD
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EFPS at Heathrow
New ASMGCS at Heathrow
RIMCAS at Heathrow
VCCS at Heathrow
OPM at Heathrow
New ATM at Heathrow
AFDAS GP at Heathrow
AGLCS at Heathrow
Anymore for anymore?
Actually, there must be one consistent factor in all these projects...........Damn, what can it be???
New ASMGCS at Heathrow
RIMCAS at Heathrow
VCCS at Heathrow
OPM at Heathrow
New ATM at Heathrow
AFDAS GP at Heathrow
AGLCS at Heathrow
Anymore for anymore?
Actually, there must be one consistent factor in all these projects...........Damn, what can it be???
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EFPS at Heathrow
New ASMGCS at Heathrow
RIMCAS at Heathrow
VCCS at Heathrow
OPM at Heathrow
New ATM at Heathrow
AFDAS GP at Heathrow
AGLCS at Heathrow
Anymore for anymore?
Actually, there must be one consistent factor in all these projects...........Damn, what can it be???
New ASMGCS at Heathrow
RIMCAS at Heathrow
VCCS at Heathrow
OPM at Heathrow
New ATM at Heathrow
AFDAS GP at Heathrow
AGLCS at Heathrow
Anymore for anymore?
Actually, there must be one consistent factor in all these projects...........Damn, what can it be???
New radars are really good :
Better off with a Type 82................
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As the Spanish seem to be retreating from any hint of collaboration we could go direct to INDRA and have SACTA in time for PC As for FDP we could buy the version DFS are working on with INDRA There's a common thread developing here that doesn't include the letters L or M
BD
As for FDP we could buy the version DFS are working on with INDRA There's a common thread developing here that doesn't include the letters L or M BD
Can you be more explicit??
Rgds.
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BD...
You've mentioned two failures (and how many project or other managers were retrained / redeployed / sacked after them? I'd be very supprised if anyome carried the can)
Try SIS. It does not have the functionality of the CCTV system or canopy maps it has replaced. A waste. It's not possible to even search it unless you know EXACTLY what you're looking for.
TLPD... Not really fit for purpose, is it? Named as a causal factor in how many incidents so far?
There may a misconception . Swanwick "works" because of the LArge number of operational people that make it work, not the electronic vagaries that we've all learned to live with.
It has always been protrayed as a glowing success. Repeat it often enough and some people start to believe that fiction.
Do the electronic coordinations (as they have been since Jan02) REALLY help us handle more traffic?
I wonder what would have happened if we were able to use the NERC Screens, with a mini strip board, and instead of a Planner, put a CSC in the seat to do all the non standing agreement co-ordination, leaving level plannin to the ASC? (luxury, One CSC to One SC)
Labour intensive? No more so than Swanwick is now. Cost? MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper and very little risk.
Swanwick was very late, way, way over budget, badly managed right up until opening and still doesn't meet the end users needs.
So, one of the biggest f**k ups of all time. I give you the NERC project, which I am forced to use on a daily basis (except when there's a shut down, or DDand C....How many other centres SHUT down in EUR every weeK? . )
Rgds BEX
You've mentioned two failures (and how many project or other managers were retrained / redeployed / sacked after them? I'd be very supprised if anyome carried the can)
Try SIS. It does not have the functionality of the CCTV system or canopy maps it has replaced. A waste. It's not possible to even search it unless you know EXACTLY what you're looking for.
TLPD... Not really fit for purpose, is it? Named as a causal factor in how many incidents so far?
There may a misconception . Swanwick "works" because of the LArge number of operational people that make it work, not the electronic vagaries that we've all learned to live with.
It has always been protrayed as a glowing success. Repeat it often enough and some people start to believe that fiction.
Do the electronic coordinations (as they have been since Jan02) REALLY help us handle more traffic?
I wonder what would have happened if we were able to use the NERC Screens, with a mini strip board, and instead of a Planner, put a CSC in the seat to do all the non standing agreement co-ordination, leaving level plannin to the ASC? (luxury, One CSC to One SC)
Labour intensive? No more so than Swanwick is now. Cost? MUCH MUCH MUCH cheaper and very little risk.
Swanwick was very late, way, way over budget, badly managed right up until opening and still doesn't meet the end users needs.
So, one of the biggest f**k ups of all time. I give you the NERC project, which I am forced to use on a daily basis (except when there's a shut down, or DDand C....How many other centres SHUT down in EUR every weeK? .
)Rgds BEX
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One has to ask is the problem with projects or with - dare I say it - Heathrow ATC 
Germany are implementing Vaforit in their upper area ACC's, that is the Spanish system with a liberal sprinkling of Raytheon - very good apparently. The question I still have is how/when to replace TC. Do we do it after LACC, same time, before? After and TC will still be on Node/NAS in the middle of another FDP system, before - reverse, same time - EEK.
Ex EGLL - I totaLLY agree with you, current valid controllers on project teams BEFORE the engineering fait accompli (I bet I didn't spell that correctly but we are ATC so who cares
). There are FAR too many engineering solutions 'presented' and then the arguments start - 'what's wrong with it then, on;y cost £127,000,000 mate!
Germany are implementing Vaforit in their upper area ACC's, that is the Spanish system with a liberal sprinkling of Raytheon - very good apparently. The question I still have is how/when to replace TC. Do we do it after LACC, same time, before? After and TC will still be on Node/NAS in the middle of another FDP system, before - reverse, same time - EEK.
Ex EGLL - I totaLLY agree with you, current valid controllers on project teams BEFORE the engineering fait accompli (I bet I didn't spell that correctly but we are ATC so who cares
). There are FAR too many engineering solutions 'presented' and then the arguments start - 'what's wrong with it then, on;y cost £127,000,000 mate!
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Try SIS. It does not have the functionality of the CCTV system or canopy maps it has replaced. A waste. It's not possible to even search it unless you know EXACTLY what you're looking for.
TLPD... Not really fit for purpose, is it? Named as a causal factor in how many incidents so far?
It has always been protrayed as a glowing success. Repeat it often enough and some people start to believe that fiction.
Do the electronic coordinations (as they have been since Jan02) REALLY help us handle more traffic?
Do the electronic coordinations (as they have been since Jan02) REALLY help us handle more traffic?
So, one of the biggest f**k ups of all time. I give you the NERC project,
which I am forced to use on a daily basis
BD
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NATS and NERL are a business someone is held accountable
Well with monitor values up 50% on West Drayton, delays down, SSE's down etc
SIS...
Built before we had the internet browsers we have today
TLPD is a casual factor or the FACT that the user is not using it as they should be?
Please answer the question. If NERC is so wonderfully advanced, how come it has to shut down so often? Colleagues at BREST/ BRUSSELS/ AMSTERDAM/ MAASTRICHT would all like to know.
No ones forcing you to work there. You can always resign
I know of no-one who isn't leaving, or retiring as soon as they can financially. The garden is not all that rosy.
Of course, NATS could start being HONEST about successes, as well as failures. It COULD start getting operational staff involved inprojects from the begining and engineers on the ops room floor..... but I'm not holding my breath as Empires have been constructed. It's certainly not happening right now, despite the propoganda.
Bst rgds
BEX
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Whomever is accountable
But do they invariably lead to an SSE?
SIS is integral to the NERC system to remove/replace it would be a very large change, particularly if it were at a very late stage in the development of the NERC system. A stable system was required for testing to give assurance that it was fit for purpose long before it was required to conduct OCT.
Additionally if you expect to have cutting edge technology introduced in every project then nothing would ever get completed because technology changes all the time.
However you must surely know which managers are currently subject to warnings because of recent overload? Hint: they don't work outside of the Ops room.
Its been explained often enough. Thats the solution which was implemented despite the ATC element wanting to do upgrades without having to switch the system off. The other solution was vastly more expensive.
BD
Both incorrect statements.... Overloads of course are UP. (WD had no MVs, but did have TSFs).
SIS.... WRONG. IE was released in 1995 .Google fully available 1999. NERC opened 2002. (no attempt to ditch SIS).
Additionally if you expect to have cutting edge technology introduced in every project then nothing would ever get completed because technology changes all the time.
Nope, TLPD has been WRONG. It has also given warnings after the event.
Please answer the question. If NERC is so wonderfully advanced, how come it has to shut down so often? Colleagues at BREST/ BRUSSELS/ AMSTERDAM/ MAASTRICHT would all like to know.
BD