NATS UK ATCO Pay offer: What do you think?
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ATCO Pay offer: What do you think?
Some good things but I think more bad.
The good:
-Hourly pay for OJTI's
The bad:
-It's a three year deal!! They are tying us in longer and longer
-The three non-operational days which are now operational
-The deal is basically inflation plus one spine point in the first year and bupa in the third: not much of a pay increase seeing as this year the company is in profit
A can see a few other problems this creates.
Already at my unit quite disturbing rumours are surfacing in referance to the 3 (now) operational days. Will the year that days fall be a calender, financial or individual leave year.
And one i heard yesterday, one day is taken by truce, but if you don't complete the other two, a day's leave will be taken off you, if this is true i don't see how they can get away with it!!
Anyway just wondered what everyone else thought.
The good:
-Hourly pay for OJTI's
The bad:
-It's a three year deal!! They are tying us in longer and longer
-The three non-operational days which are now operational
-The deal is basically inflation plus one spine point in the first year and bupa in the third: not much of a pay increase seeing as this year the company is in profit
A can see a few other problems this creates.
Already at my unit quite disturbing rumours are surfacing in referance to the 3 (now) operational days. Will the year that days fall be a calender, financial or individual leave year.
And one i heard yesterday, one day is taken by truce, but if you don't complete the other two, a day's leave will be taken off you, if this is true i don't see how they can get away with it!!
Anyway just wondered what everyone else thought.
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My Thoughts on the pay offer.
In essence, its good, regardless of pay band - we ALL get the uplift in pay spine.
Bad points
OJTi hourly pay - so we gonna sit there all day and make the trainee work his/her b*lls/t*ts off to get more money?? The hourly rate is (I have been informed by a union rep) for doing training over and above the 3hrs 20 per day we need to average to get paid at the moment.
Trainees will suffer as a result - they need time to sit back and consolidate. Try to remember how tiring it was for you as a trainee!!!
Lower pay for new entrants - now theres an idea - lets reduce it so much that the calibre of applicant is reduced (I've heard as low as 10-11K). OK, they may not pass the aptitude tests, but how long will the company accept lower numbers of entrants before 'massaging' the scores needed to join??
They've already bug***ed up the training by going too far at the college. We will end up with people with such a lack of aviation knowledge (I do not mean we need more spotters), that it will be dangerous. How does that tie in with becoming
???
AAVA why a 6 year tie in?? We will not have any bargaining power to bring management to the table in 3 years time. (Allegedly it's because we will be up to strength ATCO wise in 6 years - yeah, right).
BUPA Why should an ATCO 1 get this straight away for whole family, yet we have to wait for 3 years and it's only for the individual?? They would have been better leaving it as an ATCO 1 perk (like car allowance) instead of insulting us.
Other points
3 days clawback - who gives a stuff if it's operational or not?? It is 3 days we are supposed to be working, full stop. I would rather be busy controlling than stuck listening to some Bull***t TRM lecture, being told what is basically common sense.
Underpinning - Why is the second years January rise not underpinned??
Finally - with regards to the student ATCO pay - here's a radical though on how to save money instead of screwing them over; 2 suggestions.
1. - If a trainee fails to validate at a unit because they are not good enough, then do not back pay them for non productive years when they eventually do validate somewhere.
Start the clock running for them when they start at the new unit to train.
Why should someone who failed get thousands of pounds back pay and an automatic 2 or 3 pay spine jump, just because they have finally made it?? No one gets bonuses for validating quickly and being of use to the company.
2. - Why have an ATCO 1 LAS or GS?? The majority of the time they sit and do diddly squat. Instead, when someone has been valid for, say 5 years (or another figure), they could be trained up and then rostered once every couple of cycles to do it.
They could get paid a monthly or annual bonus for being on the roster (a pay spine??), and just as in instructing, you do not have to do it. You would then end up with a more proactive LAS/GS who has his or her finger on the pulse.
All said, I seriously doubt we qualified ATCOs will get a better deal, the only thing we can probably do is try to improve the lot of others i.e. new entrants. If we accept the deal we are selling them down the river, if we do not accept the deal, we will go into protracted talks for little or no benefit to us.
How long do you think it will take to sort out the mess if we vote 'No'? They have had a couple of years since the last pay round and they still have not got this one done in time for the January pay packet, even if we vote yes!
In essence, its good, regardless of pay band - we ALL get the uplift in pay spine.
Bad points
OJTi hourly pay - so we gonna sit there all day and make the trainee work his/her b*lls/t*ts off to get more money?? The hourly rate is (I have been informed by a union rep) for doing training over and above the 3hrs 20 per day we need to average to get paid at the moment.
Trainees will suffer as a result - they need time to sit back and consolidate. Try to remember how tiring it was for you as a trainee!!!
Lower pay for new entrants - now theres an idea - lets reduce it so much that the calibre of applicant is reduced (I've heard as low as 10-11K). OK, they may not pass the aptitude tests, but how long will the company accept lower numbers of entrants before 'massaging' the scores needed to join??
They've already bug***ed up the training by going too far at the college. We will end up with people with such a lack of aviation knowledge (I do not mean we need more spotters), that it will be dangerous. How does that tie in with becoming
an industry leader
AAVA why a 6 year tie in?? We will not have any bargaining power to bring management to the table in 3 years time. (Allegedly it's because we will be up to strength ATCO wise in 6 years - yeah, right).
BUPA Why should an ATCO 1 get this straight away for whole family, yet we have to wait for 3 years and it's only for the individual?? They would have been better leaving it as an ATCO 1 perk (like car allowance) instead of insulting us.
Other points
3 days clawback - who gives a stuff if it's operational or not?? It is 3 days we are supposed to be working, full stop. I would rather be busy controlling than stuck listening to some Bull***t TRM lecture, being told what is basically common sense.
Underpinning - Why is the second years January rise not underpinned??
Finally - with regards to the student ATCO pay - here's a radical though on how to save money instead of screwing them over; 2 suggestions.
1. - If a trainee fails to validate at a unit because they are not good enough, then do not back pay them for non productive years when they eventually do validate somewhere.
Start the clock running for them when they start at the new unit to train.
Why should someone who failed get thousands of pounds back pay and an automatic 2 or 3 pay spine jump, just because they have finally made it?? No one gets bonuses for validating quickly and being of use to the company.
2. - Why have an ATCO 1 LAS or GS?? The majority of the time they sit and do diddly squat. Instead, when someone has been valid for, say 5 years (or another figure), they could be trained up and then rostered once every couple of cycles to do it.
They could get paid a monthly or annual bonus for being on the roster (a pay spine??), and just as in instructing, you do not have to do it. You would then end up with a more proactive LAS/GS who has his or her finger on the pulse.
All said, I seriously doubt we qualified ATCOs will get a better deal, the only thing we can probably do is try to improve the lot of others i.e. new entrants. If we accept the deal we are selling them down the river, if we do not accept the deal, we will go into protracted talks for little or no benefit to us.
How long do you think it will take to sort out the mess if we vote 'No'? They have had a couple of years since the last pay round and they still have not got this one done in time for the January pay packet, even if we vote yes!
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ukatco_535
I notice you have made no comment about the effects of a 'yes' vote on the ATSAs in relation to the SAMOS issue contained within the pay offer - is this because you have not seen it?
I notice you have made no comment about the effects of a 'yes' vote on the ATSAs in relation to the SAMOS issue contained within the pay offer - is this because you have not seen it?
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White Hart
I believe the ATCO pay deal is an entirely separate negotiation/issue from the ATSA one, and neither affects the other.
As such I have not seen the ATSA pay offer, and a couple of ATSA friends here have not either - they do not even know of one being published yet.
I do know that it will probably shaft the ATSAs tho, something which I am not particularly enthralled with.
I believe the ATCO pay deal is an entirely separate negotiation/issue from the ATSA one, and neither affects the other.
As such I have not seen the ATSA pay offer, and a couple of ATSA friends here have not either - they do not even know of one being published yet.
I do know that it will probably shaft the ATSAs tho, something which I am not particularly enthralled with.
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ukatco_535 and silent handover
You both seem to miss white hart's point..... he's not asking if the ATCO's are involved in the ATSA pay deal, he's inquiring about the fact that ATCO's initially had a say in whether ATSA's kept their jobs or not. The SAMOS being moved over to ATCO's implies ATSA redundancies/relocation etc and they have no say in it as it's contained in an ATCO pay deal for all to vote on, including the ATCO's it has no effect whatsoever on.
I mentioned this in the NATS forum but everyone seemed to ignore the point.... we at PH thought it had been removed quick sharp after pay deal publication, but white hart still seems to think it exists. Who's right? Someone's in the dark?
Hope this makes sense.........
You both seem to miss white hart's point..... he's not asking if the ATCO's are involved in the ATSA pay deal, he's inquiring about the fact that ATCO's initially had a say in whether ATSA's kept their jobs or not. The SAMOS being moved over to ATCO's implies ATSA redundancies/relocation etc and they have no say in it as it's contained in an ATCO pay deal for all to vote on, including the ATCO's it has no effect whatsoever on.
I mentioned this in the NATS forum but everyone seemed to ignore the point.... we at PH thought it had been removed quick sharp after pay deal publication, but white hart still seems to think it exists. Who's right? Someone's in the dark?
Hope this makes sense.........
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I know what White Hart is was asking, it's just that by UKATCo's reply it is obvious that they had no idea of the SAMOS issue in the ATCO pay deal. The PDF briefing we recieved at Gatwick made no mention of this part of the deal at all.
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Sorry to show my ignorance here,
but SAMOS?? Semi automatic Met Observation system??
Only one I know with that acronym... I am an area controler, so please enlighten me if I am wrong.
but SAMOS?? Semi automatic Met Observation system??
Only one I know with that acronym... I am an area controler, so please enlighten me if I am wrong.
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ukatco
I guess you prove the point entirely!
SAMOS is semi-automated met obs system and at the airports it's done by the ATSA's, there was an initial management proposal for ATCO's to vote whether to take on this job on night shifts for a 2% sweetner thus rendering 1/3 of the ATSA shifts not needed anymore.
It was a part of the deal but seems to have been removed as far as we were aware, probably due to PCS having a fit (an assumption on my part)
It also seems crazy that all ATCO's get to vote anyway seeing as it doesn't affect the majority, they'd just take home the extra 2%
White Hart is understandably hacked off!!!!
Silent Handover : interesting, roadshow hasn't come this far north yet, so we'll see!
I guess you prove the point entirely!
SAMOS is semi-automated met obs system and at the airports it's done by the ATSA's, there was an initial management proposal for ATCO's to vote whether to take on this job on night shifts for a 2% sweetner thus rendering 1/3 of the ATSA shifts not needed anymore.
It was a part of the deal but seems to have been removed as far as we were aware, probably due to PCS having a fit (an assumption on my part)
It also seems crazy that all ATCO's get to vote anyway seeing as it doesn't affect the majority, they'd just take home the extra 2%
White Hart is understandably hacked off!!!!
Silent Handover : interesting, roadshow hasn't come this far north yet, so we'll see!
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Yep,
I am a qualified met observer from my days flying from ships in the military, hence why I knew the acronym, but wanted to be sure we were on the same wavelength.
As an area bod, it does not affect me (it's an airport thing), so that is maybe why I did not know that it was to be added to ATCOs (even if it has since been removed)
I do not think the unions would or should allow such divisive things like this to be entertained, even tho we have separate negotions.
That said, please don't take this the wrong way as I have many friends that are ATSAs at both area and airports, but being able to make a forecast using SAMOS is not a great bargaining chip for ATSAs.
I agree it is one part of your job, but you should be making more of the fact that you are an integral part of the system, and a vital safety aspect.
if on top of normal duties and nothing else, an extra pair of eyes is always needed; heck, if a cleaner told me I was about to have an airmiss, I would thank them - some ATCOs have a superiority complex tho, unfortunately.
Hope this reads ok as I am rushing out the door!!
I am a qualified met observer from my days flying from ships in the military, hence why I knew the acronym, but wanted to be sure we were on the same wavelength.
As an area bod, it does not affect me (it's an airport thing), so that is maybe why I did not know that it was to be added to ATCOs (even if it has since been removed)
I do not think the unions would or should allow such divisive things like this to be entertained, even tho we have separate negotions.
That said, please don't take this the wrong way as I have many friends that are ATSAs at both area and airports, but being able to make a forecast using SAMOS is not a great bargaining chip for ATSAs.
I agree it is one part of your job, but you should be making more of the fact that you are an integral part of the system, and a vital safety aspect.
if on top of normal duties and nothing else, an extra pair of eyes is always needed; heck, if a cleaner told me I was about to have an airmiss, I would thank them - some ATCOs have a superiority complex tho, unfortunately.
Hope this reads ok as I am rushing out the door!!
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As of yesterday (13th) it was still part of the offer - there is no reissued paperwork or statements from Management/Prospect or even PCS to indicate removal of this most contentious of items from the ATCO pay offer.
It has to be made clear to all ATCOs just exactly what is going on here, and exactly what you are being asked to vote for with regard to the ATSA/SAMOS issues.
and as for saying that 'its no big bargaining chip' - at Heathrow it will be just about the only thing we have got to bargain with - you can forget all that old b*lls about how 'valuable' we are, or 'essential part of the team' cr*p - Management and unfortunately many ATCOs have long given up on that concept. If they hadn't, and we're that 'valuable' to you and the job itself, then we wouldn't be facing this situation today. The ATCOs would (should) be showing full support for us - not voting to take away our jobs for a poxy 2% increase on their pay deal.
It has to be made clear to all ATCOs just exactly what is going on here, and exactly what you are being asked to vote for with regard to the ATSA/SAMOS issues.
and as for saying that 'its no big bargaining chip' - at Heathrow it will be just about the only thing we have got to bargain with - you can forget all that old b*lls about how 'valuable' we are, or 'essential part of the team' cr*p - Management and unfortunately many ATCOs have long given up on that concept. If they hadn't, and we're that 'valuable' to you and the job itself, then we wouldn't be facing this situation today. The ATCOs would (should) be showing full support for us - not voting to take away our jobs for a poxy 2% increase on their pay deal.
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SAMOS is part of the current pay deal, it was part of the presentation given to us yesterday by the Prospect reps, but as we are area controllers they said very little on the subject.
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hmmm interesting that our rep said within a day or two of conference that it'd been removed.......
I'd love to hear what our ATSA's had to say about his!!! Talk about wool and eyes!!!
I'd love to hear what our ATSA's had to say about his!!! Talk about wool and eyes!!!
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Copy of post I made on NATS Forum
I am a 'REP at a busy southern airport, and I think this is the worst deal I have ever seen Prospect recommend (Yes, Conference endorsed the deal and it is recommended by the union and will be encouraged during the visits planned to explain its content). In the meantime, here's my view, for all it is worth...
Pay increase over 3 years is simply inflation based, underpinned by the on off spine point given in April 2006 and the 0.65% 2007 (approx 4.85%). This means an actual pay increase of about 1.5% per year.
SOAL/TOIL/AAVA....is like finding rocking horse s..t. Makes no difference to salary at an airport.
Reduction of future Trainee salaries...maybe ok to a point, but upon validation, they should be straight onto the ATCO scale as they will be doing the same job as the rest of us. (oh, and while on T&D did you know they won't get BUPA membership!)
New Salary Points for ATCO 1's....Again, some getting more than others. Not many ATCO1 posts at the airfields!
BUPA....ATCO 1 and above get Family membership from day 1, while the rest of use get the scraps of individual in 2008, thanks for that one....ALSO,it is not 'free', it is a taxable perk , for every £100 it costs, you will have £40 deducted from your salary in tax...can we opt out of this or is it compulsory??
Reduced Pension Contributions for ATCO1+.....does NATS pay extra into the fund to make up the contributions or do the rest of us subsidise ATCO1+'s from our pensions....I bloody hope not!!!
OJTI Hourly Performance....Ok, as an active OJTI we still get the 3%, but if you have 3 OJTIs on watch and 1 trainee, even doing all hours you can (4/3=1.3hrs per day) you will max at an additional 3% give or take..not such a great bonus for training and always putting your licence at risk!
4% for verifiers etc....No problems, extra work, extra rewards BUT..it should only be for Verifiers,Competency Checkers and Assessors..NOT WM's just because they think they should get it too!!
UHP/NOS.......why should NOS (mon-fri, 9-5) be the full UHP when someone working weekends and no nights or vice versa, recieve a reduced UHP This really isn't fair.
MET, the bit they conveniently left out of the Prospect Brief to members!! We are agreeing to take ATSA jobs (ie..peple lose their job, no work, unemployed etc) when management said Met at nights would not lead to ATSA job loses...we just did all their dirty work for the(EXTRA 2%??)...Well Done Prospect.
Almost done now. I have spent my career with an Atsa as an integral part of my watch/team. I can't believe how callously we are treating them, it really does appear that Management have divided the unions and are now dividing the ATCO grades. Please draw a line in the sand and send a message back to Prospect. When we were told a 2 year deal was the exception, I never thought it meant we were going for 3 yr deals with bonuses for the 'rich' and scraps for the 'poor'.
Please ask lots of questions and think about everyone when you eventually cast your vote. Being a union used to mean we looked after everyone equally, especially those most vulnerable. You decide how many people without a job in the future is worth you 1.5% pay rise each year...what if it was you!!!!
Thanks
Almost forgot...a point made earlier. MET observations only effect Airfields not TC, Area, College etc. Even if we at the airports voted against the deal it could still be implemented by people who it has no effect upon.This most definetly should not be a part of any pay deal
Pay increase over 3 years is simply inflation based, underpinned by the on off spine point given in April 2006 and the 0.65% 2007 (approx 4.85%). This means an actual pay increase of about 1.5% per year.
SOAL/TOIL/AAVA....is like finding rocking horse s..t. Makes no difference to salary at an airport.
Reduction of future Trainee salaries...maybe ok to a point, but upon validation, they should be straight onto the ATCO scale as they will be doing the same job as the rest of us. (oh, and while on T&D did you know they won't get BUPA membership!)
New Salary Points for ATCO 1's....Again, some getting more than others. Not many ATCO1 posts at the airfields!
BUPA....ATCO 1 and above get Family membership from day 1, while the rest of use get the scraps of individual in 2008, thanks for that one....ALSO,it is not 'free', it is a taxable perk , for every £100 it costs, you will have £40 deducted from your salary in tax...can we opt out of this or is it compulsory??
Reduced Pension Contributions for ATCO1+.....does NATS pay extra into the fund to make up the contributions or do the rest of us subsidise ATCO1+'s from our pensions....I bloody hope not!!!
OJTI Hourly Performance....Ok, as an active OJTI we still get the 3%, but if you have 3 OJTIs on watch and 1 trainee, even doing all hours you can (4/3=1.3hrs per day) you will max at an additional 3% give or take..not such a great bonus for training and always putting your licence at risk!
4% for verifiers etc....No problems, extra work, extra rewards BUT..it should only be for Verifiers,Competency Checkers and Assessors..NOT WM's just because they think they should get it too!!
UHP/NOS.......why should NOS (mon-fri, 9-5) be the full UHP when someone working weekends and no nights or vice versa, recieve a reduced UHP This really isn't fair.
MET, the bit they conveniently left out of the Prospect Brief to members!! We are agreeing to take ATSA jobs (ie..peple lose their job, no work, unemployed etc) when management said Met at nights would not lead to ATSA job loses...we just did all their dirty work for the(EXTRA 2%??)...Well Done Prospect.
Almost done now. I have spent my career with an Atsa as an integral part of my watch/team. I can't believe how callously we are treating them, it really does appear that Management have divided the unions and are now dividing the ATCO grades. Please draw a line in the sand and send a message back to Prospect. When we were told a 2 year deal was the exception, I never thought it meant we were going for 3 yr deals with bonuses for the 'rich' and scraps for the 'poor'.
Please ask lots of questions and think about everyone when you eventually cast your vote. Being a union used to mean we looked after everyone equally, especially those most vulnerable. You decide how many people without a job in the future is worth you 1.5% pay rise each year...what if it was you!!!!
Thanks
Almost forgot...a point made earlier. MET observations only effect Airfields not TC, Area, College etc. Even if we at the airports voted against the deal it could still be implemented by people who it has no effect upon.This most definetly should not be a part of any pay deal