South African ATC Terms and Endearment (Merged)
Join Date: Feb 2004
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ATNS still mixed-up!!! 
Get ATC's back from the ME but pin salaries on 5yrs max for experience...no credit given for 5 to 8 yrs ME experience.(or for that matter any amount of previous years experience with ATNS)
or
Importing ATC's for S America, getting them validated (which take a long time in certain ATNS Centres) and then give them the boot after 2 years...even if they prefer to stay and work in SA??
or
They offer a job, make all nice arrangements...but then decide to change their minds in demanding unrealistic changes to the arrangements causing a guy to sit without a job having already resigned from his present job...... GOOD show ATNS
Me think they will never learn!!
Good luck to you guys and girls doing such a great (unappreciated) job in SA.
Hi Ruscle (GfJ)
Get ATC's back from the ME but pin salaries on 5yrs max for experience...no credit given for 5 to 8 yrs ME experience.(or for that matter any amount of previous years experience with ATNS)
or
Importing ATC's for S America, getting them validated (which take a long time in certain ATNS Centres) and then give them the boot after 2 years...even if they prefer to stay and work in SA??
or
They offer a job, make all nice arrangements...but then decide to change their minds in demanding unrealistic changes to the arrangements causing a guy to sit without a job having already resigned from his present job...... GOOD show ATNS
Me think they will never learn!!
Good luck to you guys and girls doing such a great (unappreciated) job in SA.
Hi Ruscle (GfJ)
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makeapullup
Sorry, forgot about the swedish couple. Long term memory failure on my part. But all the other gen is correct huh? Am sure you'll correct me where I talk tripe. Tks.
Sorry, forgot about the swedish couple. Long term memory failure on my part. But all the other gen is correct huh? Am sure you'll correct me where I talk tripe. Tks.
Join Date: Apr 2005
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Howdy
Hoezit julle!
As one of the CT acc controllers who is now at Abu Dhabs approach, I can only say that I am a happy camper. I had my reasons for leaving, it was always a long term goal to get overseas (oversand) experience, broaden the horizons outta the R of SA. It was just sped up when I was being paid a PE salary for close on a year in the expensive CT city where every month I was digging a deeper and deeper hole financially.
Money aside, I am loving this experience. I hope to be here for a while, and any of you SEffricans who want help or advice, give me a buzz....
Hey porra
Join Date: Dec 2004
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The Truth (Well my truth anyway)
I've decided to finally post something on this site after just reading everyone elses opinion. I have to start by saying that although these posts are semi-anonymous it's going to be quite obvious to alot of people who I am but I have to say something....
I've been with ATNS for about 20 months now and i believe that i am the only foreigner to come to these shores from NATS.
There are some partial truths in what has already been said on this topic. Most of the controllers would be too afraid to be completely honest about the situation here.
Alot of controllers have left recently. Some for the first time, a few came back and then left again, and there are plenty that are just waiting for there chance to up sticks and get out.
Aside from the money issue, which in my experience is always an issue wherever you are, there is one huge problem within ATNS and it is getting worse by the minute.
That problem can be summed up in one word...F E A R. The policy of this company when it comes to incident reporting, investigating and then action is quite frankly scandalous. Coming from the NATS environment, in which controllers are encouraged to report incidents, even when they are to blame, people here are scared stiff.
It seems to me, that the attitude here, is that the controller is guilty until proven partly responsible. You would not believe the draconian nature in which controllers are treated if they make a mistake. Incidents which would not even be reportable abroad, are turned into major events here. Controllers get suspended for ridiculous periods of time and are then told to do the most extreme things to get their ratings back.
I'm not sure exactly how much i should divulge for fear of being sued, suffice to say that it makes the work environment extremely difficult.
Fear should never be used in an Air Traffic environment because it is completely counter-productive. Controller's will not 'push the envelope' at all here coz if they screw up they know that there will be hell to pay. So they play it very safe indeed.
Don't get me wrong. The pilots here, get an unbelievably good service with respect to climb profiles, requested levels, speed restrictions, etc. Especially in Cape Town coz it's not that busy.
And funnily enough, some of the pilots here still complain. That took me along time to understand, but i guess thats just the way it is.
There are some fantastic people working for ATNS, we have state of the art equipment, well the computer system anyway, but I am certain that if something drastic doesn't happen alot more people will leave.
A wholesale change of attitude towards the controllers would be a good place to start, but there are alot of other issues too. There is so much potential here, but I believe that a serious rethink is necessary if ATNS is to hold on to its more senior staff and secondly improve as an ATC provider.
Nuff said!
I just forgot one thing...
Cape Town is a bloody expensive place to live if you are earning Rand!!
I've been with ATNS for about 20 months now and i believe that i am the only foreigner to come to these shores from NATS.
There are some partial truths in what has already been said on this topic. Most of the controllers would be too afraid to be completely honest about the situation here.
Alot of controllers have left recently. Some for the first time, a few came back and then left again, and there are plenty that are just waiting for there chance to up sticks and get out.
Aside from the money issue, which in my experience is always an issue wherever you are, there is one huge problem within ATNS and it is getting worse by the minute.
That problem can be summed up in one word...F E A R. The policy of this company when it comes to incident reporting, investigating and then action is quite frankly scandalous. Coming from the NATS environment, in which controllers are encouraged to report incidents, even when they are to blame, people here are scared stiff.
It seems to me, that the attitude here, is that the controller is guilty until proven partly responsible. You would not believe the draconian nature in which controllers are treated if they make a mistake. Incidents which would not even be reportable abroad, are turned into major events here. Controllers get suspended for ridiculous periods of time and are then told to do the most extreme things to get their ratings back.
I'm not sure exactly how much i should divulge for fear of being sued, suffice to say that it makes the work environment extremely difficult.
Fear should never be used in an Air Traffic environment because it is completely counter-productive. Controller's will not 'push the envelope' at all here coz if they screw up they know that there will be hell to pay. So they play it very safe indeed.
Don't get me wrong. The pilots here, get an unbelievably good service with respect to climb profiles, requested levels, speed restrictions, etc. Especially in Cape Town coz it's not that busy.
And funnily enough, some of the pilots here still complain. That took me along time to understand, but i guess thats just the way it is.
There are some fantastic people working for ATNS, we have state of the art equipment, well the computer system anyway, but I am certain that if something drastic doesn't happen alot more people will leave.
A wholesale change of attitude towards the controllers would be a good place to start, but there are alot of other issues too. There is so much potential here, but I believe that a serious rethink is necessary if ATNS is to hold on to its more senior staff and secondly improve as an ATC provider.
Nuff said!
I just forgot one thing...
Cape Town is a bloody expensive place to live if you are earning Rand!!
Join Date: Jul 2002
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ATNS is paying some European company a truckload of money to tell them what they already know: That the staff is desperately unhappy! I think this is about the second or third time that they have an independent census done. Always the same results and suggestions which ATNS then file far away.
You can get the folks to live with either a crappy salary or you can get them to live with crappy working conditions, but not both.
The big thing is that if you have an incident, there is no support from the company. There is only persecution. Management does invite you to attend mandatory counseling sessions where you then get told not to do it again or else!
You can get the folks to live with either a crappy salary or you can get them to live with crappy working conditions, but not both.
The big thing is that if you have an incident, there is no support from the company. There is only persecution. Management does invite you to attend mandatory counseling sessions where you then get told not to do it again or else!
Join Date: Apr 2001
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Makes it a bit clearer where the ex-Sth African "manager" over here is coming from.
Accountability is the magic word. Isn't there anyone they are accountable to, or is it like here where they are judge, jury and executioner? Certainly never accountable for their decisions or the way they behave here.
Accountability is the magic word. Isn't there anyone they are accountable to, or is it like here where they are judge, jury and executioner? Certainly never accountable for their decisions or the way they behave here.
Join Date: May 2003
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It's been 10 years since I last worked at FAJS and it's sad to see nothing has changed other than the equipment. EXPEDITECLIMB's comments were true in 1995 also. Safety is one thing, treating ATC's like "criminals" is another. When oh when will they ever learn......
Join Date: Sep 2005
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SA ATC's
Good evening,
Looking forward to chat with all of you, new to the site.
Seems, there's a lot of info going around, have some of my own to share (particularly about the FAJS ATC that got "sacked".
I am an ATC employed by ATNS, so all these topics are very interesting.
Keep well.
Looking forward to chat with all of you, new to the site.
Seems, there's a lot of info going around, have some of my own to share (particularly about the FAJS ATC that got "sacked".
I am an ATC employed by ATNS, so all these topics are very interesting.
Keep well.
Join Date: Sep 2005
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ATNS wake up call
I see on the Flight Intl website that ATNS posted job for ATC for twr/app. Have they decided to catch a wake up and start getting people in so they can train more people that is for so many years in the system. But then again they tried this before if I am not mistaking and to my knowledge it did not realy work. Lets see if it will work this time.
Lets hope this time they can keep the expats as well as the good old trusty workers of ATNS happy and keep them in the company.
Lets hope this time they can keep the expats as well as the good old trusty workers of ATNS happy and keep them in the company.
niknak
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I admit to knowing little about the cost of living and quality of life in S.A. , but the advert states a salary of around UK £32,000 plus allowances, with an age restriction of 35 and a five year contract.
That is a very low wage compared with UK salaries, and not even the bottom of the scale for twr/apc and apr, especially as anyone from the UK, if they stayed for the full five years, would have to renew their licenced ratings upon their return.
Not an appealing prospect for anyone from these parts I suspect.
That is a very low wage compared with UK salaries, and not even the bottom of the scale for twr/apc and apr, especially as anyone from the UK, if they stayed for the full five years, would have to renew their licenced ratings upon their return.
Not an appealing prospect for anyone from these parts I suspect.
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South Africa ATC
So all you SA boys'n'girls, any information on the latest attempt at getting International ATCO's to your country? What's cost of living like on an equivalant Salary of approx £32K? What are extra allowances? Where is best out of the 3 places they are desparate?
Looking forward to the replies
Sandpit_king
Looking forward to the replies
Sandpit_king
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responce
Well to start off with if you look at the offer of R310987 to the pound a month I think you looking at about 28k a month and the station allowance is not much to right home about for Bloem and East London it is about R1600. At least you get a good medical insurance not to bad pension fund. The JHB allowance is much higher than the other one's. I think it is about R7500 not sure. TFC wise you can have a look at ACSA website where they list the average movements for these station. Bloem being the least then EL then JHB being the busy one of all station in SA. Housing in the other two towns are high but not crazy like JHB and the towns are also nice and relaxed not a rush pit like JHB. Good climate all around.
Hope this helps feel free to ask more,will se where I can help.
Hope this helps feel free to ask more,will se where I can help.
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Thanks for reply Nailman.
Notice on the ATNS ad that they don't stipulate any experience requirements....hows that? Is that why Salary is so low, especially as cost of living is allegedly so high?
What's the working conditions like? Do they pay Internationals any kind of re-location expenses/allowances?
Looks like from your profile you left recently, any particular reason? Are you enjoying the UAE, from what I hear there are plenty SA's there too?
Sandpit_king
Notice on the ATNS ad that they don't stipulate any experience requirements....hows that? Is that why Salary is so low, especially as cost of living is allegedly so high?
What's the working conditions like? Do they pay Internationals any kind of re-location expenses/allowances?
Looks like from your profile you left recently, any particular reason? Are you enjoying the UAE, from what I hear there are plenty SA's there too?
Sandpit_king
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Hi again Sandpit King
The salary they offer is equel to a PATC in SA with 5 years experience, so I think they are looking at some one with about that much experience. I am not sure about relocation.
Working conditions are not to bad. In BL and JHB they have the new SAAATS system which is a Eurocat system same as AUS system. This is not a bad system cuts down your liason. JHB Intl is a very busy centre and BL and EL is moderate stations.
In BL you have some schedule flights(SA Express,AirLink, A/C types CARJ;DHC8;JS41 and military flights(there is a military training school for chopper pilots, AlC types AS32;Alo3;Agusta) you also get other military flights in and BL is situated in the centre of SA you also work two TMA's and some times combined twr/app.
EL is on the east coast with mainly schedule flights mainly low cost airlines flying in there now.(A/C types B732,3,8; DC9; DHC8;CARJ;JS41) that is just some of the main a/c I can think of. There is also a popular training school close to EL 43 Airschool. In EL they also have radar but not same as other stations yet.
SA is not that bad, being in the UAE for a few months now and where I am stationed I would rather work in SA, they are much more organised. The company has ISO status aswell. The only benefit in this place is that fuel and cars and some day to day stuff are cheaper but some times its not worth it.
Hope this can help. I can send you an e-mail if you want more detailed info if you like.
The salary they offer is equel to a PATC in SA with 5 years experience, so I think they are looking at some one with about that much experience. I am not sure about relocation.
Working conditions are not to bad. In BL and JHB they have the new SAAATS system which is a Eurocat system same as AUS system. This is not a bad system cuts down your liason. JHB Intl is a very busy centre and BL and EL is moderate stations.
In BL you have some schedule flights(SA Express,AirLink, A/C types CARJ;DHC8;JS41 and military flights(there is a military training school for chopper pilots, AlC types AS32;Alo3;Agusta) you also get other military flights in and BL is situated in the centre of SA you also work two TMA's and some times combined twr/app.
EL is on the east coast with mainly schedule flights mainly low cost airlines flying in there now.(A/C types B732,3,8; DC9; DHC8;CARJ;JS41) that is just some of the main a/c I can think of. There is also a popular training school close to EL 43 Airschool. In EL they also have radar but not same as other stations yet.
SA is not that bad, being in the UAE for a few months now and where I am stationed I would rather work in SA, they are much more organised. The company has ISO status aswell. The only benefit in this place is that fuel and cars and some day to day stuff are cheaper but some times its not worth it.
Hope this can help. I can send you an e-mail if you want more detailed info if you like.
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Evening,
RE the salary offered, it's more than what the ATC's earn here, depending on the year's experience. One of the allowances, station allowance, is station specific and is calculated on the amount of movements and complexity of airspace. The USC allowance is approx. 2600 Pounds.
If you were starting out with zero year's experience, your basic salary, including pesion contribution from the company would be in the region of 19600 Pounds (if R11-50 buys 1 Pound).
Cheers!!!!
RE the salary offered, it's more than what the ATC's earn here, depending on the year's experience. One of the allowances, station allowance, is station specific and is calculated on the amount of movements and complexity of airspace. The USC allowance is approx. 2600 Pounds.
If you were starting out with zero year's experience, your basic salary, including pesion contribution from the company would be in the region of 19600 Pounds (if R11-50 buys 1 Pound).
Cheers!!!!
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ATNS job offer - living costs in SA
Evening,
I have not seen the ad in Flight International myself, but the salary offered in SA Rands, seem to be quite good. I will give you an average breakdown of living costs in SA. These costs are only average and not 100% on the ball.
Salary package:
The salary packages normally offered by ATNS includes: Basic salary, USC (Unfavorable Service Conditions) allowance and Company pension fund contribution. Station allowance, which is station specific and medical aid are over and above.
To give you an idea of station allowances: Non-radar station R900-R1900. Small radar station R1600-R2000. The station allowance if Cape Town is R4500 and in Jo'burg R7800 (both these will depend on the validations held at the respective centres).
Property:
Property in SA is expensive. In Jo'burg and average 3 bed roomed town house will cost R600 000 to R1 million, with price depending on the area in which you buy. Lots of people live in security complexes, and an additional levy is payable (this normally includes rates and taxes, water consumption etc.). Living in Cape Town and various coastal areas can be quite expensive with the same properties going for R750 000 to R1,2 million. At the current interest rates, you will be looking at paying an installment of 10% of the purchase price. Rentals are 5-7% of the purchase price.
Taxes:
The highest income tax rate is 42%. Prices for goods on shelves at the shops already have VAT of 14% added, unless otherwise stated.
Transport and insurances:
Prices of vehicles are obviously dependent on the class of vehicle. An entry level vehicle [VW, Vauxhall (known in SA as OPEL)] will cost R80 000, intermediate level (VW, OPEL, Peugot or Renault) R150 000 and luxury (Volvo, BMW, Mercedes or Audi) R250 000 plus. Insurance is dependent on where you live, for instance in Jo'burg you insurance will be higher that on the coastal areas. Your household insurance (based on the value of R200 000) and vehicle insurance (for 2 intermediate level vehicles) will probably come to R1000 to R2000, depending on what deal you get with a broker. Petrol is R6 per liter.
Schooling:
If you have kids, it would be better to put them into a private school. Government schools are often overcrowded with the ration being 1 teacher to 35 kids, in some cases more. Private schooling will put you back R40 000 per year and this excludes uniforms, text books and extra mural activities. Although expensive, I think it is worth it.
Groceries:
Average 4 person family could get away with R2500 per month on groceries, excluding meat. Meat prices are between R25 and R35 per kilo, depending on what meat you buy.
Odds and ends:
The going rate for a domestic worker is R80 per day and some will expect you to also pay their taxi fare.
Chivas Regal 750 ml R180
Jack Daniels 750 ml R150
Heineken (cans or bottles) R130 per case of 24.
There are currently international controllers at Cape Town, Jo'burg and Port Elizabeth.
Maybe "expediteclimb" can add some more info or tips to potential expats.
Hope this will or has helped.
Pleasant evening to all.
I have not seen the ad in Flight International myself, but the salary offered in SA Rands, seem to be quite good. I will give you an average breakdown of living costs in SA. These costs are only average and not 100% on the ball.
Salary package:
The salary packages normally offered by ATNS includes: Basic salary, USC (Unfavorable Service Conditions) allowance and Company pension fund contribution. Station allowance, which is station specific and medical aid are over and above.
To give you an idea of station allowances: Non-radar station R900-R1900. Small radar station R1600-R2000. The station allowance if Cape Town is R4500 and in Jo'burg R7800 (both these will depend on the validations held at the respective centres).
Property:
Property in SA is expensive. In Jo'burg and average 3 bed roomed town house will cost R600 000 to R1 million, with price depending on the area in which you buy. Lots of people live in security complexes, and an additional levy is payable (this normally includes rates and taxes, water consumption etc.). Living in Cape Town and various coastal areas can be quite expensive with the same properties going for R750 000 to R1,2 million. At the current interest rates, you will be looking at paying an installment of 10% of the purchase price. Rentals are 5-7% of the purchase price.
Taxes:
The highest income tax rate is 42%. Prices for goods on shelves at the shops already have VAT of 14% added, unless otherwise stated.
Transport and insurances:
Prices of vehicles are obviously dependent on the class of vehicle. An entry level vehicle [VW, Vauxhall (known in SA as OPEL)] will cost R80 000, intermediate level (VW, OPEL, Peugot or Renault) R150 000 and luxury (Volvo, BMW, Mercedes or Audi) R250 000 plus. Insurance is dependent on where you live, for instance in Jo'burg you insurance will be higher that on the coastal areas. Your household insurance (based on the value of R200 000) and vehicle insurance (for 2 intermediate level vehicles) will probably come to R1000 to R2000, depending on what deal you get with a broker. Petrol is R6 per liter.
Schooling:
If you have kids, it would be better to put them into a private school. Government schools are often overcrowded with the ration being 1 teacher to 35 kids, in some cases more. Private schooling will put you back R40 000 per year and this excludes uniforms, text books and extra mural activities. Although expensive, I think it is worth it.
Groceries:
Average 4 person family could get away with R2500 per month on groceries, excluding meat. Meat prices are between R25 and R35 per kilo, depending on what meat you buy.
Odds and ends:
The going rate for a domestic worker is R80 per day and some will expect you to also pay their taxi fare.
Chivas Regal 750 ml R180
Jack Daniels 750 ml R150
Heineken (cans or bottles) R130 per case of 24.
There are currently international controllers at Cape Town, Jo'burg and Port Elizabeth.
Maybe "expediteclimb" can add some more info or tips to potential expats.
Hope this will or has helped.
Pleasant evening to all.
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LOOK BEFORE YOU LEAP!!!
There's a reason ATNS can't keep their staff. Your research should include MUCH MUCH more than living costs and working conditions.
Go to www.kuduclub.com and watch afew of the recent clips from a Sunday night TV programme called Carte Blanche.
Keep an open mind but again, look before you leap!!!
What are they offering???
Just seen the offer online. R310 000 is OK if ATNS gives you the same benefits as those afforded to full time employees ie medical and pension benefits. If they don\'t, you\'re screwed!!! Medical costs in SA are getting frightfully expensive and a medical aid scheme for a small family could set you back about R5000 per month. MAKE SURE THAT THEY WILL INCLUDE YOU IN THE COMPANY\'S SCHEME.
East London is a small coastal town which resembles a public loo.
Bloemfontein is a dusty version of the above but has rose gardens.
Johannesburg is
chaotic in terms of traffic (air and road) and general life style. The only good thing about Jo\'burg is the GREAT bunch of ATC\'s. You couldn\'t hope for a better bunch of guys and gals and gays (Hallo approach pool)
There's a reason ATNS can't keep their staff. Your research should include MUCH MUCH more than living costs and working conditions.
Go to www.kuduclub.com and watch afew of the recent clips from a Sunday night TV programme called Carte Blanche.
Keep an open mind but again, look before you leap!!!
What are they offering???
Just seen the offer online. R310 000 is OK if ATNS gives you the same benefits as those afforded to full time employees ie medical and pension benefits. If they don\'t, you\'re screwed!!! Medical costs in SA are getting frightfully expensive and a medical aid scheme for a small family could set you back about R5000 per month. MAKE SURE THAT THEY WILL INCLUDE YOU IN THE COMPANY\'S SCHEME.
East London is a small coastal town which resembles a public loo.
Bloemfontein is a dusty version of the above but has rose gardens.
Johannesburg is
chaotic in terms of traffic (air and road) and general life style. The only good thing about Jo\'burg is the GREAT bunch of ATC\'s. You couldn\'t hope for a better bunch of guys and gals and gays (Hallo approach pool)
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SA is a great place to live and work (depends on which city of course!)
If you looking for a change and a bit of adventure then the offer sounds good.
However I would not give up a good paying UK controller salary to come and work on contract here... I am sure it aint worth it.
Remember the reason that they need you is because they cant make their local employees happy.
Otherwise good luck to those applying and look forward to working with you all soon.
If you looking for a change and a bit of adventure then the offer sounds good.
However I would not give up a good paying UK controller salary to come and work on contract here... I am sure it aint worth it.
Remember the reason that they need you is because they cant make their local employees happy.
Otherwise good luck to those applying and look forward to working with you all soon.