Paying for ATC selection preparation.
Ohcirrej
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Paying for ATC selection preparation.
If Boss Radar could endulge me a little here, there's a topic that has come up over the past couple of days that I'm very interested in getting other opinions on (and if it starts bordering on advertising or seeking custom, I'll happily delete it)
The topic : Paying somebody to be "coached" for an Air Traffic Control interview.
I full understand if somebody had their heart set on being a controller, and would do anything to get a course. However, what are others thoughs on, as was suggested, paying a person/s to "prepare" for an interview. The information for the "interview" stage of the process is available here, and can be expanded upon by visiting an operational unit. Unfortunately, there is more to the process than that. Aptitude testing does just that........tests for aptitude. Personality suitability testing is the same. Does forking over hard earnt dosh encompass this side of things?
Having thought about this, I'm sure there are people out there who have thought "well, even if it's going to give me a slight advantage, I'll go for it". What happens if the application is unsuccesful? Effort AND money down the drain?
Thoughts?
This is not an attempt to stir sh*t.
The topic : Paying somebody to be "coached" for an Air Traffic Control interview.
I full understand if somebody had their heart set on being a controller, and would do anything to get a course. However, what are others thoughs on, as was suggested, paying a person/s to "prepare" for an interview. The information for the "interview" stage of the process is available here, and can be expanded upon by visiting an operational unit. Unfortunately, there is more to the process than that. Aptitude testing does just that........tests for aptitude. Personality suitability testing is the same. Does forking over hard earnt dosh encompass this side of things?
Having thought about this, I'm sure there are people out there who have thought "well, even if it's going to give me a slight advantage, I'll go for it". What happens if the application is unsuccesful? Effort AND money down the drain?
Thoughts?
This is not an attempt to stir sh*t.
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Jerricho,
I fully agree with you, if its not in someone in aint in them!!! It is possible to coach someone in the personnel and technical interviews I feel, as there is a certain way one can go about the interviews and be MUCH better prepared. However, the psychometric testing is IMPOSSIBLE to fake, you could get example tests, but if you cant do that type of test - tough!
If someones prepared to hand over their cash then I feel sorry thats the best way they feel to succeed - but I know its an all costs application for most.
Is there a side issue here though that if one could help their way through or somehowfake the results - wouldnt they just fail in Bournemouth - or take a place from someone possibly more able?
I fully agree with you, if its not in someone in aint in them!!! It is possible to coach someone in the personnel and technical interviews I feel, as there is a certain way one can go about the interviews and be MUCH better prepared. However, the psychometric testing is IMPOSSIBLE to fake, you could get example tests, but if you cant do that type of test - tough!
If someones prepared to hand over their cash then I feel sorry thats the best way they feel to succeed - but I know its an all costs application for most.
Is there a side issue here though that if one could help their way through or somehowfake the results - wouldnt they just fail in Bournemouth - or take a place from someone possibly more able?
Ohcirrej
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If someones prepared to hand over their cash then I feel sorry thats the best way they feel to succeed
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I still agree with Jericho.
My previous post before the thread was chopped pointed out that - Guidance on entry requirements is freely available from the company you are applying to and that this BB has an extensive support network for wannabes.
A free website with most information is also available in the sticky thread.
Jericho's initial response was "is this a joke"
I still wonder if it is.........
My previous post before the thread was chopped pointed out that - Guidance on entry requirements is freely available from the company you are applying to and that this BB has an extensive support network for wannabes.
A free website with most information is also available in the sticky thread.
Jericho's initial response was "is this a joke"
I still wonder if it is.........
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Having just been through the interview you can have my two-penneth. I just really don't see how paying for an individual's help can be worth it. I mean - the replies to my questions and general help and info offered on this site (freely) was really fantastic and I've been at pains to thank everyone responsible (I made it through). But no one piece of advice or example questions came up. To be honest I was amazed at my technical interview - it just flew by and covered only a little of what I'd worried about learning. But I guess the point is that I had tried and learnt the things that another interviewer may have brought up.
As regards the personality stuff I suppose you could be given some stock answers but to be honest that's going to be seen through fairly quickly isn't it? I mean they aren't expecting automatons just some decent explanations and a bit of confidence getting them across. The computer tests you'd have to just practise and practise and I suppose you might improve but they're surely set up to test your adaptability at getting and applying information quickly. The main thing here is the breadth of experience that multiple input offers and the general community spirit here at PPRuNe is the real help (and those contact details for visits because NATS aren't helping there).
The idea of paying an individual for the service just seems pointless and a little arrogant of those concerned - to think that they have the magic responses for all applicants is a bit off and to be honest it would be a shame if people who want the opportunity as much as us hopefuls do were to pay for something that is far surpassed herein for nowt.
......
and relax.
As regards the personality stuff I suppose you could be given some stock answers but to be honest that's going to be seen through fairly quickly isn't it? I mean they aren't expecting automatons just some decent explanations and a bit of confidence getting them across. The computer tests you'd have to just practise and practise and I suppose you might improve but they're surely set up to test your adaptability at getting and applying information quickly. The main thing here is the breadth of experience that multiple input offers and the general community spirit here at PPRuNe is the real help (and those contact details for visits because NATS aren't helping there).
The idea of paying an individual for the service just seems pointless and a little arrogant of those concerned - to think that they have the magic responses for all applicants is a bit off and to be honest it would be a shame if people who want the opportunity as much as us hopefuls do were to pay for something that is far surpassed herein for nowt.
......
and relax.
Ohcirrej
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Of course, there is the issue of "no guarantee". Of course there is no guarantee. Sorry to be so blunt, but would anybody actually pay for this?
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Well if folks got paid for helping out, arranging visits, setting up mock interviews, etc, then there's a few of us owed a few bucks 
Danny, once I get all that cash in, I RESIGN
Danny, once I get all that cash in, I RESIGN
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Interesting comments. While I agree you cannot teach someone 'aptitude' for the job I do beleive that coaching in interview technique can be beneficial.
You can have a guy or gal who has everything it needs to do the job but just goes to pieces in an interview. We once had an ATSA who fell at one hurdle in the interview process. We sent him on a two day assertiveness training course. He is now just about to complete his Approach Radar Course.
You can have a guy or gal who has everything it needs to do the job but just goes to pieces in an interview. We once had an ATSA who fell at one hurdle in the interview process. We sent him on a two day assertiveness training course. He is now just about to complete his Approach Radar Course.
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As I said on the other thread, unless the 'coach' is currently heavily involved in Recruitment with all the employers he/she is offering advice on, then how can it be viewed as any more authoritative than information found elsewhere?
Ohcirrej
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This is a crisis, good for him! But, as you mention, it is only one hurdle to overcome. I really find it unbelievable that the other areas will be covered.
And, having just been talking with guys I work with, the following situation was proposed. Candidate in interview performs very well and is asked "How did you prepare for this?"
"Oh, I paid some dude.............."
(And well done Billy
)
And, having just been talking with guys I work with, the following situation was proposed. Candidate in interview performs very well and is asked "How did you prepare for this?"
"Oh, I paid some dude.............."
(And well done Billy
)
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Having recently been unsuccesful at interview stage, I would have gladly paid (within budget) to have someone help me through the process ie interview skills. Granted that the aptitude test etc cannot be prepared for, the selection process makes it practically impossible for an applicant to be succesful if they have all the knowledge/aptitude/IQ needed but are awful at interviews.
Not suggesting that I'm the next Einstein but for someone like myself who knows the answers and what they want to say but just simply cannot put it into words that an interviewer (or anyone else for that matter) would understand!
In hindsight, if I could have had some mock interviews to help me with my known weakness, even if I had to pay for them I would have done it in order to succeed in a very desirable career.
P.S. Congrats Billy!
Not suggesting that I'm the next Einstein but for someone like myself who knows the answers and what they want to say but just simply cannot put it into words that an interviewer (or anyone else for that matter) would understand!
In hindsight, if I could have had some mock interviews to help me with my known weakness, even if I had to pay for them I would have done it in order to succeed in a very desirable career.
P.S. Congrats Billy!
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Becoming an Air Traffic Controller is a bit like winning at poker: a bit of skill, but mostly luck.
I recall my own angst more than 30 years ago as I sat in a roomfull of hopefulls staring into a test booklet. What did putting together imaginary boxes have to do with seperating airplanes?
Nothing, it turns out.
Today the FAA is tinkering with something called ATSAT, a test to end all tests, which will finally show who will be pushing tin 20, 30 years down line. And if you believe that, I've got a bridge over River Thames for sale that I think will interest you.
Truth be told, passing the interview/test phase is still miles away from becoming a controller. Do what ya gotta do to get in the door, then: good luck!
ATC 24/7
I recall my own angst more than 30 years ago as I sat in a roomfull of hopefulls staring into a test booklet. What did putting together imaginary boxes have to do with seperating airplanes?
Nothing, it turns out.
Today the FAA is tinkering with something called ATSAT, a test to end all tests, which will finally show who will be pushing tin 20, 30 years down line. And if you believe that, I've got a bridge over River Thames for sale that I think will interest you.
Truth be told, passing the interview/test phase is still miles away from becoming a controller. Do what ya gotta do to get in the door, then: good luck!
ATC 24/7
Ohcirrej
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Steffi, my condolences, but as PPRuNe Radar mentions, he has set up mock interviews for people. I've done it for 2 people. There are a great deal of genuine people around here and in the game that will go out of their way to help (even Gonzo 
).
Senario: suppose a candidate was "coached" for interviews and alike, being plied with information he or she could regurgitate but not with a full undrestanding. I know my "bullsh*t" detector isn't the best in the world, but it's not hard to determine if a person does actually know what they are talking about. I know there has been speculation on the forum here about perceptions of how "cut-throat" the NATS interview stage of selection is. A person who is genuinly interested and prepared IMHO is going perform better than somebody who as swotted up a week or two before. And believe me, there will be individuals out there who think "Hey, ATC is a good paying job I've got nothing else to do. Where's that guy's phone number? Hi! Get me a job as an ATCO". Do we really want applicants like that?
).Senario: suppose a candidate was "coached" for interviews and alike, being plied with information he or she could regurgitate but not with a full undrestanding. I know my "bullsh*t" detector isn't the best in the world, but it's not hard to determine if a person does actually know what they are talking about. I know there has been speculation on the forum here about perceptions of how "cut-throat" the NATS interview stage of selection is. A person who is genuinly interested and prepared IMHO is going perform better than somebody who as swotted up a week or two before. And believe me, there will be individuals out there who think "Hey, ATC is a good paying job I've got nothing else to do. Where's that guy's phone number? Hi! Get me a job as an ATCO". Do we really want applicants like that?
Last edited by Jerricho; 25th Nov 2004 at 15:02.
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I would like to say that individual, one to one, coaching is good. How many companieis offer pre cabin crew training? This company, which will start in the new year, will provide all the necessary information to pass an atc interview. It will not guarantee a pass but will provide as much help as possible. Visits to units will be arranged, interview preparation and atc knowledge will be provided. When I got through the process in the mid 80's I was lucky. If I had private tuition then I would have been more confident. At the end of the day, if you wanted a job and had to pay for private tuition, fron qualified professionals, then what would you do?
Think about it, 100 applicants, 50 have private tuition, the other 50 self train. What is the outcome? I would say that most of the self train people would come second to the others.
It's called oneupmanship.
Rgds
ILS 119.5
Think about it, 100 applicants, 50 have private tuition, the other 50 self train. What is the outcome? I would say that most of the self train people would come second to the others.
It's called oneupmanship.
Rgds
ILS 119.5
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No ILS..... Its called PROFITIERING aka taking money off those who are duped into believing theyre getting something worthwhile for it!!!
Id advise all prospective candidates to get the info together from here, books, websites and what NATS supply and simply study it - hell do it before you even apply so its in yer noggin.
After all, thats all this "business" will do for you - theres nothing they can provide that aint free to all!!!
Good Luck to all - your future career is more honest than some
Id advise all prospective candidates to get the info together from here, books, websites and what NATS supply and simply study it - hell do it before you even apply so its in yer noggin.
After all, thats all this "business" will do for you - theres nothing they can provide that aint free to all!!!
Good Luck to all - your future career is more honest than some
Ohcirrej
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Totally missing the point.
I'll repeat what VectorLine said earlier, just in case you missed it.............
I do have a burning question regarding what business you would take as well. What if somebody approached you that obviously didn't have an interest in aviation, basically saw the advert and thought "Yeah, they get paid well. I'll give that a try.........here's my money!". You're going to take it, aren't you?
Like Fidgell, I wish anybody who wants to get into the job all the best. Just be warned, you don't have to pay for it!
At the end of the day, if you wanted a job and had to pay for private tuition, fron qualified professionals, then what would you do?
Guidance on entry requirements is freely available from the company you are applying to and that this BB has an extensive support network for wannabes.
Like Fidgell, I wish anybody who wants to get into the job all the best. Just be warned, you don't have to pay for it!
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Although I have never conducted interviews for Student ATCO positions, I have conducted hundreds of ATSA recruitment/promotion interviews for NATS. I don't claim to be 100% perfect (although I haven't had a failure to validate yet!) but I would say that i have a well honed bull$hit detector - as have (I am sure) those that do the ATCO interviews.
I would suggest to any ATC wannabee that they do their own research rather than relying on someone else to provide the information. I would far rather train those with a genuiine interest/aptitude for the job, rather than someone who has bought themself an interview pass (which is what you appear to be trying to sell ILS 119.5)
They stick out like a sore thumb Jerricho.
Steffi
If it is simply interview technique.. ask anyone who works in HR or recruitment. If it is more the technical side - ask at your unit visits (by the way, anyone tries to organise visits to this unit in exchange for money - forget it!)
Chips
will provide all the necessary information to pass an atc interview
Senario: suppose a candidate was "coached" for interviews and alike, being plied with information he or she could regurgitate but not with a full undrestanding.
Steffi
In hindsight, if I could have had some mock interviews to help me with my known weakness, even if I had to pay for them I would have done it in order to succeed in a very desirable career.
Chips
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Good point Mr Chips....
Is it morale, legal and/or ok by NATS for ILSs "business" to SELL trips to units???
I am ALWAYS happy to show visitors around and let them plug in with me and answer questions... is ILS selling my services???
F K ME
Is it morale, legal and/or ok by NATS for ILSs "business" to SELL trips to units???
I am ALWAYS happy to show visitors around and let them plug in with me and answer questions... is ILS selling my services???
F
K ME
Ohcirrej
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Is it morale, legal and/or ok by NATS for ILSs "business" to SELL trips to units???
The more I think about this, the more it stinks.
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It is rumoured that NATS already charges for some visits.
The story was that a group of Thai (I think ) people (they might be ATC Im not sure) paid £1500 each for a visit to Swanwick recently.
Anyone have more substantial info?
VL
The story was that a group of Thai (I think ) people (they might be ATC Im not sure) paid £1500 each for a visit to Swanwick recently.
Anyone have more substantial info?
VL