Paying for ATC selection preparation.

[ILS 119.5]

No it's not him. But he was quite successful with "Aviation Foundation Training" as I remember and helped a lot of chopped cadets attain their ratings.

[Jerricho]

Thank you. A conversation just got me thinking.

Signed:

Jerricho

"Keeping it free..........."

[ILS 119.5]

Why, are you thinking of doing it yourself?

[Jerricho]

What. Helping prospective ATC applicants and ot demanding money for it? Already doing it, like quite a few people round here.

Run along now and try to concoct another LBA bashing thread. It's nearly been a week.

[ILS 119.5]

No, you run along and try and do something for your new found country. Myself and my mate will look after UK people and look after ourselves. Bye.

[Fidgell]

Dont get me started....... ILS,very childish answer that, thanks for proving us right all along-you only fail to disappoint one group, those that pay you!!!

[Jerricho]

Yes ILS, great retort.

Why didn't you just post "I know you are, but what am I"?

At least that would have been funny.

[tobzalp]

Hi I an an ATC. pm me your moneys and I will tell you how to do it. I am very smart and helpful.

[paulriggers]

Doesn't this sort of pre-training exist in almost all industries? Cabin crew, armed forces, pilots, police. Some even have HND courses based around them. What's wrong with someone wanting to set it up and make some money from it? As long as it's worth it, and that would generally be self regulating, crap service - no recommendation, good service - word of mouth recommendation. Some people just don't really have the ability to research and find out information that well despite having an aptitude for the job. I like to do my own research and will continue to do so but everyone's different, some people wouldn't even know how to find this forum. I've got lots of peers from university who are not so internet savvy. Maybe if there were more people with entrepreneurial spirit (and this isn't a dig) in NATS then it would be performing better commercially.

As I see it, everyone who has slated this idea is from one group of people, those who have internet access and are familiar with pprune - that's a very small group of people. What about people not in those two groups? Isn't this idea a valid alternative?

I agree it would be unethical to charge for a NATS visit if it was provided for free.

I have also done a few business courses in recruitment and interviewing (not ATCO specific) and would definitely pick up on bad spelling for various reasons (attention to detail, education, failure to check) not to be confused with typo's though! And wouldn't rate paying for information any less than someone who's done it themselves, both valid routes.

Also, aptitude is there or not but familiarisation with the tests sure makes them easier.



Cue the onslaught..........

[Jerricho]

Hi Paul,

My biggest question, which to this point STILL hasn't been answered this.

What happens if somebody comes to our little entrepreneur and says "Hey, I wanna be ATC, help me and have some dosh". Now, what if it is blatently obvious (for what ever reason) our little wannabe is unsuitable for ATC. Will he/she be told "Don't bother mate!" or will the money happily be taken? It is a business after all

[paulriggers]

I suppose that comes down to how ethical the business is, which note is by no means an obligation.

Turning people away will lose you money but being ethical will ensure you succed in the long term. I think that's more of a long term business decision to make.

Another debatable point would be, what would make ILS qualified to decide the future of someone and say they are not suitable? Would it not be far worse to turn someone away and tell them they are not suitable and put them off for life than taking their money, training them up and for them to then fail of their own accord?

[Jerricho]

Welcome to the dark side Paul

I'm sure our friend will be along soon to dodge the question AGAIN.

[Fidgell]

Ok, youve woken me up again.....

Here's a good point brought up - What gives ILS the right/ability to judge a candidates suitability? I like that as I have my own answer like Im sure the rest of us do..

Another one from the latest posts, If a candidate doesnt have the "ability" to research the application process when this site as well as many publications are there to help - plus the info NATS sends as incomplete as it is - then I ask can the lazy (or inable ) be suitable for such a career? Or even more, would they pass the college courses which require such learning ability and dedication?

Or will ILS take their money througout the college and hold the poor inable/lazy students hands at each stage?

Will ILS help me through my next LCE???? He's my hero!!!

[niknak]

Slap me down if I'm wrong, but didnt the CAA (SRG) introduce the concept of ARGAT (the principle of being continually assessed and having to meet milestones to continue the course), because a certain well known provider of ATC courses was alledgedly offering courses to anyone who came along with the cash?

Allegedly, they even had an arrangement with a financial institution to arrange loans for said people to fund their courses, no pre assessment as to suitability for the loan or course, no questions asked.

I not for a moment suggesting that ILS is doing the same thing, but what advice can he offer which is more effective than an assessment as provided by the approved course providers?

[ILS 119.5]

Firstly the advice offerred is only direction, i.e. to study what is required to have general knowledge for the interview. To be on hand for any further questions that candidates may have. It is not a training course but it provides advice and information for potential controllers. The company cannot and will not comment on suitability or aptitude which is up to the CAA to decide. We are only providing a platform for prospective ATCO's to obtain more than the basic knowledge for interviews. We do not charge for visits to units, we are paid for our Aviation knowledge and experience. Exactly the same way as you pay for a book which has been recommended for reading by NATS before the inteview, only we are more up to date.

[Jerricho]

I'll restate my question one last time..............

What if a person presented themselves to your business that obviously wasn't suited to the job, but still wanted to apply? Would you take their money knowing full well their chances were slim to none? Are you asking for money up front?

[ILS 119.5]

NO!
We would not. But as I stated earlier like any other training establishment we can only provide our best, it is up to the student to pass the interviews/exams etc. We can only provide our best and current knowledge. We will ensure all prospective candidates have enough Aviation knowledge for the interview. Passing is not up to us.
Can you tell who is suitable to be an ATCO? The CAA can't due to all the failures. All we want to do is try and help and take a small payment for it.

[niknak]

Can you tell me who is suitable to be an ATCO?

Well, the aptitude tests/assesments done by the two independant colleges and CATC at Hurn are by no means infallible, but they do provide a very good indicator as to who will get through the courses and who will not, even CATC's output of successful candidates is markedly better now.

CATC and the two independants will tell candidates immediately if they don't think they'll make it through the course. Their assesments are done by instructors who have to maintain CAA standards to keep their instructors tickets.

It's a well known and proven fact that it's better for the candidates to go into the interview and test days having done the recommended reading, visits and with an open mind, which they can do for free - not having paid for the "advice" of someone who appears not to be a qualified instructor, nor is an atco.