Paying for ATC selection preparation.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: By here now in a minute
I worked my proverbials off for a couple of months earlier this year whilst I was going through selection. For the aptitude tests I spent a lot of time doing practice cube questions over and over and over again as I didn't feel at all confident about doing them. When it came to the actual tests I whizzed through that particular part and ended up wondering what all the fuss was about.
I honestly believe and stand to (hopefully not) be corrected that that shows that I have the required ability but just needed some practice as opposed to I didn't have the ability and so learnt how to do such questions.
Before the interviews I had mock interviews. I also tried to learn everything I could think of. I read business plans, learnt about FAST, iFACTS, the stack display trial, looked at movement figures, budgets, NATS organisation charts, last twelve months worth of NATSnews, news archive on the intranet and more. I reckoned that because I already work for NATS and had access to all this info I'd be expected to know more than an external candidate.
I visited Swanwick, TC and Stansted because again I reckoned I'd be expected to use the fact I could get visits arranged easily to show just how much I wanted to step up from being an ATSA.
With hindsight I studied stuff that was never going to come up but as a result of learning and seeing so much I got to each phase thinking "bring it on/ask me whatever you want" rather than "I hope I don't get asked this/I wonder if I've done enough". It also meant that I was able to show the interviewers how flippin' much I wanted to be an ATCO. However, would I have had that level of confidence if I had paid someone to teach me what they deemed was "enough" to get through selection?
At the end of the day, who is going to be seen to have gone that extra little bit in their desire to suceed? The person who is prepared to throw money and be lead by the hand or the person who has the balls/nouse/drive to find out for themselves? After all...
Aptitude test books - £15.98
Petrol for unit visits - £50
Showing how much I wanted the job - flamin' priceless!!
Finally, I wonder how NATS have managed to fill so many courses if this buyable "service" hasn't been available before to help people pass?
I honestly believe and stand to (hopefully not) be corrected that that shows that I have the required ability but just needed some practice as opposed to I didn't have the ability and so learnt how to do such questions.
Before the interviews I had mock interviews. I also tried to learn everything I could think of. I read business plans, learnt about FAST, iFACTS, the stack display trial, looked at movement figures, budgets, NATS organisation charts, last twelve months worth of NATSnews, news archive on the intranet and more. I reckoned that because I already work for NATS and had access to all this info I'd be expected to know more than an external candidate.
I visited Swanwick, TC and Stansted because again I reckoned I'd be expected to use the fact I could get visits arranged easily to show just how much I wanted to step up from being an ATSA.
With hindsight I studied stuff that was never going to come up but as a result of learning and seeing so much I got to each phase thinking "bring it on/ask me whatever you want" rather than "I hope I don't get asked this/I wonder if I've done enough". It also meant that I was able to show the interviewers how flippin' much I wanted to be an ATCO. However, would I have had that level of confidence if I had paid someone to teach me what they deemed was "enough" to get through selection?
At the end of the day, who is going to be seen to have gone that extra little bit in their desire to suceed? The person who is prepared to throw money and be lead by the hand or the person who has the balls/nouse/drive to find out for themselves? After all...
Aptitude test books - £15.98
Petrol for unit visits - £50
Showing how much I wanted the job - flamin' priceless!!
Finally, I wonder how NATS have managed to fill so many courses if this buyable "service" hasn't been available before to help people pass?
Thread Starter
Ohcirrej
Joined: Feb 2003
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From: This is the internet FFS.........
As I said, I recieved in rather haughty PM stating "what was my problem, response had been great, and when he had his Ferrari and place in St Tropez, he would send me a message:" 
More than just an ATCO
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 1,773
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From: Up someone's nose
I feel sorry for anybody with no real aptitude who goes this route. Basically all he/she/it is learning is interview technique. Most of the info is here on-line for free; if you have no aptitude you will - hopefully - be caught out further up the line. However by that time you have wasted a lot of people's time and money.
BTW If the person operating this service is employed by NATS would he/she be required to declare his/her involvement?
BTW If the person operating this service is employed by NATS would he/she be required to declare his/her involvement?
Joined: Nov 2000
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BTW If the person operating this service is employed by NATS would he/she be required to declare his/her involvement?
Misuse of NATS intellectual property.
On a tenuous link to that - I always wondered whether the person who produces the londoncontrol.com/ programme works for NATS and whether that was theft of intellectual property......
Moderator
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From: Europe
BTW If the person operating this service is employed by NATS would he/she be required to declare his/her involvement?
On a tenuous link to that - I always wondered whether the person who produces the londoncontrol.com/ programme works for NATS and whether that was theft of intellectual property......
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 493
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From: EGLL
Sorry have been away but still here and listening with interest.
Another scenario, what if this person decided not to give one to one tuition and then decided to write a book about modern atc. The book would then be sold in bookshops, therefore making money for the writer. What is the difference? A couple of things have come to mind from this thread. Firstly, none of the atco's who have posted replies seem to value their profession, meaning value, and how much are you worth. Secondly, the negative views show that nobody has an entreprenurial sense. If there are people out there with the guts and vision to find a niche in the market then good on them. An atco's position is on the same level as a doctor, lawyer, teacher and any other profession. How many doctors work for the nhs and then do private work for BUPA, loads. Why? to make more money. How many atco's have other businesses, loads. How many pilots have other businesses, loads. What is wrong with one person finding a gap in the market and making money, nothing.
If all your fuses in you house blew tonight would you expect the electrician to advise you how to fix them, for free. If you could give your professional knowledge, for a small fee, to prospective atco's then why not.
PS Jerricho
I will reply to you with a PM and answer all your questions.
ILS 119.5
Another scenario, what if this person decided not to give one to one tuition and then decided to write a book about modern atc. The book would then be sold in bookshops, therefore making money for the writer. What is the difference? A couple of things have come to mind from this thread. Firstly, none of the atco's who have posted replies seem to value their profession, meaning value, and how much are you worth. Secondly, the negative views show that nobody has an entreprenurial sense. If there are people out there with the guts and vision to find a niche in the market then good on them. An atco's position is on the same level as a doctor, lawyer, teacher and any other profession. How many doctors work for the nhs and then do private work for BUPA, loads. Why? to make more money. How many atco's have other businesses, loads. How many pilots have other businesses, loads. What is wrong with one person finding a gap in the market and making money, nothing.
If all your fuses in you house blew tonight would you expect the electrician to advise you how to fix them, for free. If you could give your professional knowledge, for a small fee, to prospective atco's then why not.
PS Jerricho
I will reply to you with a PM and answer all your questions.
ILS 119.5
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 493
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From: EGLL
PS Fidgell
Yes I am a fool with 10 o'levels, 3 a'levels, a degree in physics, atco licence, atpl, happily married in a large house with wonderful children. Do not try to accuse me about success and pontificate about me being a fool. I think I am slightly above the "fool" that you call me.
Rgds
ILS 119.5
Yes I am a fool with 10 o'levels, 3 a'levels, a degree in physics, atco licence, atpl, happily married in a large house with wonderful children. Do not try to accuse me about success and pontificate about me being a fool. I think I am slightly above the "fool" that you call me.
Rgds
ILS 119.5
Joined: Aug 2004
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From: OK (it's okay)
True Bliss
Lon,
It took me 34 years sitting in front of a radar scope and standing in the tower cab to put together the knowledege I inpart to my trainees daily. Cute quote, but give it a bit more thought, please.
Shame on you!
ATC 24/7
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.
Shame on you!
ATC 24/7
Thread Starter
Ohcirrej
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 2,919
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From: This is the internet FFS.........
The insinuation that there are people here who don't value their abilities and profession borders on farcical. And the analogies used are pointless. Do you really need it explained to you that an electrician's job involves changing fuses, yet as an ATCO you are licenced to perform your duties at your place of work (try heading down to your nearest uncontrolled airfield and start trying to exercise your abilities as a controller)
When an ATCO trains somebody on the job, they are paid for it (not very well, but that's another story). The ATCO must undergo a course to become an OJTI, and there are strict guidelines that must be followed in undertaking these duties, and should they not be up to scratch, steps are taken. Being an ATCO, you should know all this.
What you seem to be suggesting is imparting whatever knowledge you claim to have, for a fee. Regualtion issues? Conflict of interest issues? Who says the information you're going to impart is correct? The poor individual who has forked over the money won't really know will they, just that they weren't successful in their application.
Also, and this is a question I have asked you twice in a PM, but you have ignored. What if a person presented themselves to your business that obviously wasn't suited to the job, but still wanted to apply? Would you suggest they didn't? Or would you take their money and do everything to help them towards getting through the assessment, knowing full well their chances were slim to none?
When an ATCO trains somebody on the job, they are paid for it (not very well, but that's another story). The ATCO must undergo a course to become an OJTI, and there are strict guidelines that must be followed in undertaking these duties, and should they not be up to scratch, steps are taken. Being an ATCO, you should know all this.
What you seem to be suggesting is imparting whatever knowledge you claim to have, for a fee. Regualtion issues? Conflict of interest issues? Who says the information you're going to impart is correct? The poor individual who has forked over the money won't really know will they, just that they weren't successful in their application.
Also, and this is a question I have asked you twice in a PM, but you have ignored. What if a person presented themselves to your business that obviously wasn't suited to the job, but still wanted to apply? Would you suggest they didn't? Or would you take their money and do everything to help them towards getting through the assessment, knowing full well their chances were slim to none?
Last edited by Jerricho; 28th November 2004 at 19:23.
Joined: Sep 2003
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From: EGLL
Hang on Jerricho,
this now seems a personal battle between you and I. It is not supposed to be. What is CAS, what is a CTZ, what is a CTA, what is a MATZ, what is a RAS,RIS. All questions which can be asked at an interview. What are cumulous clouds, where is the low pressure system when the wind is behind you. These are all questions, and more, which can be asked. It all boils down to the fact that if you were willing to pay, for example £10.00, and have a better advantage of obtaining a job. Is it worth it? No guarantees but good tuition. I take my hat off to those who like me did all the groundwork before any interviews. But I will put my hat back on again to all of you who are trying to stop a company from working.
If a candidate was not suitable then no. I would not take their money nor would I make them think that they were suitable. As far as I am aware the company will only take suitable candidates and teach them the ropes. Whatever they need to know then they can find out.
Rgds
ILS 119.5
this now seems a personal battle between you and I. It is not supposed to be. What is CAS, what is a CTZ, what is a CTA, what is a MATZ, what is a RAS,RIS. All questions which can be asked at an interview. What are cumulous clouds, where is the low pressure system when the wind is behind you. These are all questions, and more, which can be asked. It all boils down to the fact that if you were willing to pay, for example £10.00, and have a better advantage of obtaining a job. Is it worth it? No guarantees but good tuition. I take my hat off to those who like me did all the groundwork before any interviews. But I will put my hat back on again to all of you who are trying to stop a company from working.
If a candidate was not suitable then no. I would not take their money nor would I make them think that they were suitable. As far as I am aware the company will only take suitable candidates and teach them the ropes. Whatever they need to know then they can find out.
Rgds
ILS 119.5
Moderator
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From: Europe
A gentle reminder that we should not attack an individual or individuals on this Forum.
Debate should be about ideas and viewpoints, not personalities.
Some folks may wish to look at their posts and delete or edit them accordingly.
Debate should be about ideas and viewpoints, not personalities.
Some folks may wish to look at their posts and delete or edit them accordingly.
Joined: Aug 2002
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From: By here now in a minute
Would the applicants be required by this business to pass aptitude tests to assess their ability to pass aptitude tests? 
Once a visit had been arranged, would the person who'd arranged the visit be responsible for looking after the pupil during the visit? Would they be doing this whilst in on AAVA?
Ok, so if NATS are approached by this organisation, why not charge for visits?
Take the following example. A group of French trainee ATCOs (who work in the South of France so have no contact with NATS professionally) visit a NATS airport. The visit is organised by a French commercial outfit that teaches aviation English. NATS business development charges said commercial organisation as NATS knowledge, intellectual property is being passed on but nothing of direct benefit to NATS is gained. Surely charging for this is logical.
Now take the case of an ATCO trainee applicant. He phones this NATS airport, explains his situation and arranges a visit. The ATCOs are happy to help him and show him around. Benefit to NATS - possible new ATCO. Of course there should be no charge for these visits especially as they are recommended to applicants. However, if these visits were being arranged by a commercial organisation...
Once a visit had been arranged, would the person who'd arranged the visit be responsible for looking after the pupil during the visit? Would they be doing this whilst in on AAVA?
Is it morale, legal and/or ok by NATS for ILSs "business" to SELL trips to units???
Actually, I hadn't even thought of that. How many people would be happy knowing an individual was paid to organise a visit to a unit. I think NATS certainly wouldn't. And no, this isn't looking for a "cut of the action" or "Geeze, I wish I had thought of that".
Take the following example. A group of French trainee ATCOs (who work in the South of France so have no contact with NATS professionally) visit a NATS airport. The visit is organised by a French commercial outfit that teaches aviation English. NATS business development charges said commercial organisation as NATS knowledge, intellectual property is being passed on but nothing of direct benefit to NATS is gained. Surely charging for this is logical.
Now take the case of an ATCO trainee applicant. He phones this NATS airport, explains his situation and arranges a visit. The ATCOs are happy to help him and show him around. Benefit to NATS - possible new ATCO. Of course there should be no charge for these visits especially as they are recommended to applicants. However, if these visits were being arranged by a commercial organisation...
More than just an ATCO
Joined: Jul 1999
Posts: 1,773
Likes: 1
From: Up someone's nose
atcea.com your career mirrors mine, except it was 37 years in ATC as controller, Training Officer, Supervisor and System Developer but only m.e./ifr I'm afraid.
my experience showed that the best Controllers did not neccessarilly make the best instructors, nor the best instructors the best controllers.
Let's get back to the subject as the mods are a bit touchy recently
Here since before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus a Rigger
my experience showed that the best Controllers did not neccessarilly make the best instructors, nor the best instructors the best controllers.
Let's get back to the subject as the mods are a bit touchy recently
Here since before Pontius was a Pilot or Mortus a Rigger
