Durham Tees Valley-7 [Archive] - Page 5

tigertanaka

13th Nov 2018, 05:15

Love your positive spin AirportPlanner1.

I am very surprised that to this day MME hasn't secured a London service when you see the likes of Exeter managing to keep one going. However, I think that a London service will only be self-sustaining if it can act as a feeder on to a hub network. Point to point and business traffic is surely too slim?

i think this exactly the problem when there are direct trains to London every 30 minutes from Darlington. LCY, LTN, STD flights would only be for point to point traffic. LGW is still leisure focused and if BA (or someone offering a BA codeshare) can’t make MAN-LGW or NCL-LGW stack up then there probably isn’t a business case for MME.

LHR world probably work fine but not when slots go for $30m a pair.

Robert-Ryan

13th Nov 2018, 09:31

Shame Peel didn't make DTV attractive for the London connection.
Beafer as per usual your inflammatory post is way off the mark. Peel will have reached the same conclusions as everyone else who has replied to you, regardless of this they will still have spoken to and continue to speak to all eligible airlines for this and other routes, but routes need to be both sustainable and profitable. Even if LCY was both of those things, Peel would probably then wonder why they should trust an airline with Easterns current reliability record.

skyman771

13th Nov 2018, 12:40

Peel would probably then wonder why they should trust an airline with Eastern's current reliability record.

Crikey Robert!, have you actually made a negative comment wrt to DTV !?..........................;)

Robert-Ryan

13th Nov 2018, 13:42

When the occasion calls for it, yes.

highwideandugly

13th Nov 2018, 18:31

A lot of emotions and views on this site..probably more than any other.

people genuinely care..even the doom merchants.
Most don’t have blinkers others do..it’s called democracy!

facts are..for years the airport has been treading water...passengers down,movements massively down. check the DTV movements site and pick almost any historical date and compare with same today..sad.

We all have answers..where is the Mayor when you need him? Where are the silent owners.

please ..what is actually happening here because most of us are clueless...

Beafer

13th Nov 2018, 19:04

When the occasion calls for it, yes.

How long will Peel cover the losses shown in the latest account?
Airport Accounts - up to March 2017.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423/filing-history

Losses of £2.7m. Note page 25 about the pension liabilities.
The next accounts due in December 2018 will be up to the March this year.

highwideandugly

13th Nov 2018, 20:19

Not many in the pension scheme now..and those that are left have been given pay rises to compensate...Figures on the up..KLM ,anyway,more freight flights..ok less movements..corner turned? Will PEEL decide to give it another year,while the mayor sorts his priorities out...watch this space!..As always s..interesting times!

Robert-Ryan

14th Nov 2018, 00:03

I'm only seeing the accounts dated to 31st March 2017, where are 2018s please or am I just being thick?

Beafer

14th Nov 2018, 10:49

I'm only seeing the accounts dated to 31st March 2017, where are 2018s please or am I just being thick?

Correct about March 2017, the next accounts are due in December 2018, which will be for the period up to March 2018.
I noted that there are 71 DTVA employees listed in the last accounts. Does anyone know how many there were in 2004-05 when passenger figures were growing?

Re the last accounts, I am not an accountant but there appears to be large amounts of money being paid out to other companies?

Beafer

14th Nov 2018, 14:27

Airport debated by MP’s. Peel say they have invested £40m.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/mp-fears-durham-tees-valley-15414343

More on the debate.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/live-updates-plans-future-ssi-15413499Ben Houchen on the airport

Mr Houchen has pledged to buy back Durham Tees Valley Airport - or Teesside Airport, as he calls it.
He was criticised in the debate over lack of transparency and progress over his attempts to do a deal. He responded by saying:

Almost 15 years since Labour flogged our airport for just £500,000, I’m pleased that MPs are now finally awake to the fact that Teesside Airport could close – something I’ve been saying for two years.
I’m clear that the only way to save our airport from closure is to bring it back under public ownership. I’ve been clear that I won’t give money to Peel for nothing in return.

I’ll soon be presenting my plan to save our airport very soon for Cabinet approval. My plan will be public, voted on, and won’t require a single penny from local council tax payers. We also have an established UK airport operator willing to step in if we reach a deal.MP fears airport could close in 2021

Alex Cunningham also raises the issue of Durham Tees Valley Airport. He says he is concerned the airport will close unless Tees mayor Ben Houchen can deliver.
He saysThose plans to develop the airport are shrouded in secrecy. The parties involved are bound by confidentiality agreements.
And those of us who are asking questions on behalf of the people we represent are getting very limited answers.

We know some things though. That the £5m grant to create an access road to the south side of the airport to allow further development has been allowed to lapse. Why?

Mr Cunningham says a reply to his letter from Peel Group, which owns 90% of the airport, says the company has invested £40m in the loss-making airport.

He doesn’t actually confirm the airport will close in 2021 when the current arrangements run out but I fear that is exactly what is on the cards, if the mayor fails to sort this out

N707ZS

14th Nov 2018, 15:03

Could this be classed as fake news Mr Cunningham should no better or prove it.

SWBKCB

14th Nov 2018, 15:20

Could this be classed as fake news Mr Cunningham should no better or prove it.

I thought it was in the public domaion that Peel had an option to close the airport if it continued to lose money. This is certainly what the Mayor has been saying - the article linkied by Beefer has Mr Houchen saying the following (amongst other things)

"I’m pleased that MPs are now finally awake to the fact that Teesside Airport could close – something I’ve been saying for two years."

N707ZS

14th Nov 2018, 17:31

Prove it as, show the letter from Mr Hough.

highwideandugly

15th Nov 2018, 18:02

So..as previously reported....possible closure in 2021 if DTV remains under PEELS umbrella.

could be true..who knows....however...what message is this sending out to customers and airlines...

can they plan..which they do...ie. TUI etc.ahead if there is a possibility of closure?

its not good and no one can argue any other way.I suspect most major players plan at least a couple of years in advance...KLM definitely..Eastern..maybe not!

Bad press sticks..or is it fake news!

what next guys..Nero is fiddling...

P330

16th Nov 2018, 14:56

Over 10k people used the AMS service in September. Is this a record?

Certainly the increase this year has been excellent!

Robert-Ryan

16th Nov 2018, 15:31

Doubt it's a record, we used to sustain 3xd if not 4xd all F100 service

highwideandugly

16th Nov 2018, 19:19

RR. Is right..much better once upon a time.

rough work out is 160 flights...10k passengers. Makes an average of 62 pax per flight.. all flights 2/3rds full....I know it’s a rough working out and of course no idea of yields.

back to the big question..the future..come on guys..a bit like Brexit..but what do we think?

tigertanaka

16th Nov 2018, 22:35

10,297 used the AMS service in September, this was the best month on the route since September 2008 when 10,589 passengers flew it. Based on 3 rows of business class (so 6 vacant seats), I would put the load factor at 72% last month.

So far this year, the route is 12% up on 2017 - this is despite the summer schedule being cut back due to slot restrictions at AMS when maintenance work was being done on the runway. 2018 should be the best numbers on this route since 2008.

As HWU said, we don't know the yield (and of course KLM are running bigger planes than 12 months ago so might have dropped prices slightly) but KLM do still charge a significant premium to fly from MME over NCL or LBA, especially on connecting flights.

N707ZS

17th Nov 2018, 07:56

The weekend flights that I have seen have been added to with weekend trippers to Amsterdam so not just business and transit passengers. Highwideandugly banned but Beafer escapes.

Beafer

17th Nov 2018, 11:19

DTV news. The Army will be arriving on an exercise.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/high-profile-attention-attracting-army-15428212

N707ZS

17th Nov 2018, 11:52

And the RAF transport A330 Voyager has been in a few times so not dead yet. Jet Provost also likes its new home.

10 DME ARC

17th Nov 2018, 17:54

Highwideandugly - Banned?? Whats that all about?? Only one who talks sense on here at times!!

No-More-Bullschit

17th Nov 2018, 18:25

Highwideandugly - Banned?? Whats that all about?? Only one who talks sense on here at times!!
I think you need to reassess your definition of sense!! But yes a strange ban and presumably nothing he's said on this particular thread

Beafer

18th Nov 2018, 22:23

KLM confusion as to where DTV is? First the was a Newcastle photo, now its one of Durham?
Maybe Peels Robert could give them a local photo ;)

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/airline-klm-replaces-geordie-land-15432241

Anyone got a suggestion for KLM?

No-More-Bullschit

18th Nov 2018, 23:18

A slow news day clearly and a non story! Does it matter?? No. I'm slightly surprised KLM lowered themselves to responding :bored:

highwideandugly

19th Nov 2018, 19:23

Would think KLM know where they are going..and I would hope passengers know where they are going...no story!

Robert-Ryan

19th Nov 2018, 20:45

Wizz Air used to do the same

Beafer

29th Nov 2018, 18:54

DTV Airport owner Whittaker made a $350m loss today.
Note the bit about building houses.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-11-29/billionaire-whittaker-loses-350-million-after-intu-bid-dropped?srnd=deals
"Whittaker, 76, said he remains a committed Intu shareholder, citing the opportunity to add to the company’s property assets by building homes, hotels and offices next to its malls."

https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/business-46383066

N707ZS

29th Nov 2018, 19:01

Sorry looked and couldn't find anything relevant to DTVA, again! As relevant as Major Houchin's gas fired power station.

SWBKCB

29th Nov 2018, 19:10

Property developer in developing property shock! :eek:

Beafer

2nd Dec 2018, 20:56

DTV discussion by councillors in the press.
Haven't heard anything from Peel about how well their old Master plan is going, but at least the airport got a mention ;)
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/17268455.darlington-council-leader-declines-blanket-airport-support-for-mayor/

The next DTV Airport Ltd accounts and confirmation statement are both due this month. Should make interesting reading.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423

Question for those with company knowledge. What do the "Outstanding Charges" mean?
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423/charges

Beafer

2nd Dec 2018, 21:07

Having looked more closely at the companies house documents the outstanding charges appear to be some sort of agreement from what I can see when I opened the pdf files.

Does this mean that Middlesbrough council and the other people mentioned in the 2 charges actually own the St.George Hotel and other plot of land at the Oak Tree?
Could prove interesting for Peels housebuilding plans.
Middlesbrough council charge.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423/charges/886mnkbJgXmQlS6vp6CLFlq57-o

Charles and Delsa charge.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423/charges/6PjT1DyF-sOQGPrvCZy0QIrvI-0

Hipennine

3rd Dec 2018, 06:52

A charge is a loan secured against assets. I.e. whoever makes the loan takes out a charge as security, otherwise known as a mortgage. Standard business lending practice.

Beafer

3rd Dec 2018, 10:13

A charge is a loan secured against assets. I.e. whoever makes the loan takes out a charge as security, otherwise known as a mortgage. Standard business lending practice.

Thank you Hipennine,
With the outstanding charges being made against the St.George Hotel, and other Oak tree land, what does that mean for Peel and DTV Airport Ltd? I thought they owned all of the land on the North side for the upcoming house building?
Can they build on that land with the charges still outstanding?
If the Middlesbrough Council charge was for a loan where did that money go???

The Middlesbrough council outstanding charge agreement was signed by 2 local DTV Directors, and a person from the council.
It appears to be some sort of mortgage against the staff pensions, but applied against a property? The signatures are shown on the pdf file enclosed.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423/charges/886mnkbJgXmQlS6vp6CLFlq57-o

:confused: (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423/charges/886mnkbJgXmQlS6vp6CLFlq57-o)

tigertanaka

3rd Dec 2018, 14:20

Beafer

3rd Dec 2018, 14:40

Moving away from Peel's balance sheets, it seems that the mayor will be announcing something tomorrow morning:

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/labour-leaders-claim-mayor-buy-15498932

Re Gazette, good news I hope.
If anyone is looking for land at the airport, these plots are for sale on the South side. Various sizes. Nice view of the runway.
https://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-for-sale/property-69653270.html

N707ZS

3rd Dec 2018, 18:04

Mayor probably won't get those bits for his 40m.

Hipennine

4th Dec 2018, 07:51

Thank you Hipennine,
With the outstanding charges being made against the St.George Hotel, and other Oak tree land, what does that mean for Peel and DTV Airport Ltd? I thought they owned all of the land on the North side for the upcoming house building?
Can they build on that land with the charges still outstanding?

: (https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423/charges/886mnkbJgXmQlS6vp6CLFlq57-o)

Well if I was lending money to them secured against land, and they wanted to stick houses on it, I think I'd be delighted. Remember that the charge is security against a bed debt, In this case, by building houses, the value of the security increases many times compared to the original so I'd be very happy. However, I don't know what conditionalities are attached to the charges.

Beafer

4th Dec 2018, 09:27

Well if I was lending money to them secured against land, and they wanted to stick houses on it, I think I'd be delighted. Remember that the charge is security against a bed debt, In this case, by building houses, the value of the security increases many times compared to the original so I'd be very happy. However, I don't know what conditionalities are attached to the charges.

Re the Middlesbrough outstanding charge shown on the airports accounts. It applies to the St.George Hotel from what I can see in the accounts. There are no current plans to build on the hotel site, just around it.
I wonder why this charge hasn't been discussed in the public council chambers given the public concerns about Peel and the airport.
There are over a 100 public comments under the Gazette article today.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/labour-leaders-claim-mayor-buy-15498932

EGPO

4th Dec 2018, 09:46

I've kept an eye on this thread for some time , and can really feel for the people who care so much for your local Airport.
But can , I ask .
What as a community has been done to try save it, for example petitions , lobbying , Your MP, Even down to the Town council in the Area of which the Airport is based Right upto which ever person is Transport minister this week .
It's sad that a once highly profitable Airport which in itself should prove demand is or was there .
Yet it's current offering Mirrors that of Humberside . It's crazy that this company which has made such efforts at Liverpool and DSA , have allowed an Airport which is in an Area that could in theory overlap DSA's Northern most catchment , and West toward the towns of the sales, ok not vast numbers .
But it seems to have now reached a time where it has to be decided ,either close it or keep it open , Government buy out until a suitable oporator can be found.
Ibut either way this constant arguments cannot go on .
It can't be good for the airport, which seems not to have a suitable plan , I mean it says it all when they could not hang on to Loganair .
And it is not good for the community .
Finally people will say well you have Newcastle Leeds or even DSA,.
But not everyone wants to or can Drive , coupled with a rail link that is parliamentary Service, getting from that Area to those other airports is not easy .
And until the A1 us upgraded to three lanes from Washington to the Bridge , then the jams make Newcastle not the best option .
However afterward it could be the final nail in the coffin .
But I pray you have sucsess and someone can make a go of it , but given HUY has not really done much to attract new routes if say best of luck!.

OMGitsDAVE

4th Dec 2018, 10:19

SWBKCB

4th Dec 2018, 10:38

The Tees Valley Mayor, Ben Houchen has just been live on Facebook from the airport. He is giving Peel £35m to purchase their share of the airport back, and stop the housing development. He is vowing to stop the housing development and not a 'single home will be built on the airport site' - while also taking the airport back in to the local authority's hands.

From the Gazette website - doesn't actually say where the money is coming from, or what the opportunity cost is:

Mr Houchen said as the money for the proposed deal is from central government, it would have "zero impact" on council tax bills, public services and local businesses.

Mr Houchen continued: "You will not have to pay a penny extra to finance this acquisition.Our valued public services will not be affected by this deal. Our councils will be completely insulated from this deal. The housing will be stopped. Our other priorities will still be delivered – and won’t be impacted by this deal."

SWBKCB

4th Dec 2018, 10:44

Sorry, he has said where it's coming from - £40m in total.

The mayor says Tees Valley has an investment fund totalling £513m over the next few years, with £450m guaranteed by Government over the next few decades.

"So using the money devolved to our area from central government, I am proposing to use just over 6% of that - £35m – to acquire Peel’s shareholding in our airport, including over 819 acres of surrounding land. So not just the airport, but all of the developable land around it. Also - as many of you know, there is a site just outside this terminal with outline planning permission to accommodate up to 350 homes. As part of the deal, we will acquire this site for £5m."

OMGitsDAVE

4th Dec 2018, 11:12

Sorry, he has said where it's coming from - £40m in total.

Yep - then he went on to state the funding regarding Darlington & Middlesbrough stations, before bouncing back and saying it will have no impact on local authorities, businesses etc negatively as the funding is from central government, not locally.

SWBKCB

4th Dec 2018, 11:30

OMGitsDAVE

4th Dec 2018, 11:35

The £40m is the purchase price from Peel - has anything been said about covering on-going running costs and investment?

Obviously the aim will be for the airport to eventually be self-financing, but what happens in the mean-time?

He hasn't mentioned anything about ongoing costs as yet, his Instagram says he requires approval from local authorities first - so im assuming he's put the ongoing costs on the backburner until he receives authorisation for the purchase?

I am delighted to announce that I have secured a deal with Peel to take Teesside Airport back into public ownership.

This is a deal that will save our airport from closure, a deal that will stop the planned 350-home development, and a deal that delivers on the number one election pledge I made to the people of the Tees Valley.

I will finance the deal using the money devolved to our area from central government. That means zero impact on council tax, zero impact on local authorities, zero impact on public services, and zero impact on local businesses. We have this money from government to spend on our local economic priorities, and having a thriving international airport is your priority - and mine.

But there’s one more thing. While I have agreed a deal, we still need the support of our five Labour local authority leaders. I need them to vote for this deal in January 2019. If they reject my plan to save our airport, our airport could close in 2021. It’s as simple as that.

To read more about the plan, what has been agreed, and how you can help me lobby our local authority leaders, please visit: www.backbensplan.com (http://www.backbensplan.com/?fbclid=IwAR0Rybtm5sbbG-9b3eVasIzDoAB1VIM85u9HWIB7CFQlU69Lm7RaAmT8AY8)

Beafer

4th Dec 2018, 11:36

Time for the 5 council leaders to support Bens plan and get rid of Peel. Well done to Ben Houchen. Even Robert Hough was smiling ;)

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/live-updates-mayor-announce-deal-15499626

EGPO

4th Dec 2018, 11:38

Sorry but why are Peel being allowed to buy back this share is it not them who utterly ruined the airport.
It has almost as little traffic for pax as HUY.
Another odity that being a Base for Eastern offers no domestic routes or even Copenhagen or Stavanger . Dublin etc.

OMGitsDAVE

4th Dec 2018, 11:42

Robert-Ryan

4th Dec 2018, 12:03

Sorry but why are Peel being allowed to buy back this share is it not them who utterly ruined the airport.
Your mix up says it all really, but for clarity, no, it is not them.

Let's not get excited until the councillors ratify his plan, because frankly I suspect they will not on principle regardless of whether or not they agree with it.

Impressed he got the full land mind!! I have to tip my hat.

SWBKCB

4th Dec 2018, 12:07

And he's pointed out that the land is worth more than he's agreed to pay.... :E

EGPO

4th Dec 2018, 12:34

Sorry I misunderstood

Hipennine

4th Dec 2018, 12:42

No-More-Bullschit

4th Dec 2018, 12:56

Buy an asset for half a million, then a couple of years later sell it back in worse condition for £40m. I wish I could find opportunities like that. The spotters might think it's a good deal, but as a tax-payer I would have to disagree.
Why? It's not your money

Can't blame Peel for buying the place for half a mil, if you walk into EE and they're flogging iPhones for a fiver, you're gonna buy one!

SWBKCB

4th Dec 2018, 12:56

A bit more than a couple of years, and depends how much you'd have had to pay out in losses in the intervening period

Hipennine

4th Dec 2018, 13:26

Why? It's not your money

Can't blame Peel for buying the place for half a mil, if you walk into EE and they're flogging iPhones for a fiver, you're gonna buy one!

Well where do you think the £40million is coming from if not the taxpayer? It is therefore my money and your money.

And no, I don't blame Peel, I would do the same, that's the point I was making. It does however raise serious questions about the people who negotiated and signed off the deal to sell it (and those now talking about buying it).

No-More-Bullschit

4th Dec 2018, 13:35

The Mayor made it quite clear it would not affect the taxpayer

lfc84

4th Dec 2018, 13:42

The Mayor made it quite clear it would not affect the taxpayer
impossible

N707ZS

4th Dec 2018, 14:50

The rollercoaster runs on a bit longer, out of all the mayors words this is a bit chilling! So it could be houses in five years.Mr Houchen said that in the worst case scenario and his plan failed and the airport shut in five years, he believed the 819 acres plus the land with housing planned for it represented a sound investment.He said: "There is more residual value than we are spending on it."

Robert-Ryan

4th Dec 2018, 15:02

Now wouldn't that be ironic!

SWBKCB

4th Dec 2018, 15:06

The Mayor made it quite clear it would not affect the taxpayer

The mayor made it clear the money was coming from taxes raised central and not locally.

onion

4th Dec 2018, 15:41

Does the deal include the South side land earmarked for development?
I think £40m is a snip considering Peel were hoping for £25m for the housing development alone!
Don't get me started on the original deal between the council's and Peel. 😡
Please bear in mind the supposed losses at the airport include loan repayments back to Peel. These should in theory if the deal is done properly be no more!
Even at a lower end guess using the quoted £5m payment for the housing development, I would estimate a possible land value in the £50m range with a maximum going by the proposed £25m Peel hoped to make at £250m!

N707ZS

4th Dec 2018, 17:51

Onion, think its the whole lot. We then just have to see who the Mayor gets as a partner to run the airfield.

HH6702

4th Dec 2018, 19:53

Well thats the easy part buying the airport back.
Hardest part is getting an airline to bring passengers back to DTV i just cant see any wanting to come.

TCX has pulled an aircraft from NCL is closing LBA as a base
TUI is closing LBA

I cant see Jet2 wanting to come along maybe the odd flight

Ryanair wouldnt last with out a payment for flying in

highwideandugly

4th Dec 2018, 20:44

tThe last post says it all..with Brexit et al..aviation UK is in a bit of a kerfuffle ..who other than the local tax payers are going to pick up the running costs of this stagnant airport ?

Would that 40 million plus not be better spent on railways,roads and social services? Just a thought..major airports north and south within 1 hour available..will that really hold back the Teesside economy if people use them.
Great deal though by the mayor.Retrieving the airport from the possible Abyss..?

Great people, land and heritage doesn’t nesessarily need an airport?

Apologies to Little Britain for my spelling of Kerffule !

N707ZS

5th Dec 2018, 05:29

Your the only highwideandugly (https://www.pprune.org/members/230376-highwideandugly) in the village!

SWBKCB

5th Dec 2018, 07:31

Would that 40 million plus not be better spent on railways,roads and social services?

To be fair to the Mayor (!), he is delivering on his manifesto commitment. Clearly taking the airport back into public ownership has a cost, and the money spent on the airport is money that can't be spent on other public services, but that's what the electorate voted for.

His argument is that the airport will generate economic activity that will generate tax revenue in the region that will cover that cost.

oldart

5th Dec 2018, 09:06

I seem to remember that KLM were thinking about having a overflow freight operation at MME. Is that still in the offering?

SWBKCB

5th Dec 2018, 09:39

I seem to remember that KLM were thinking about having a overflow freight operation at MME. Is that still in the offering?

Wasn't that an urban myth?

Robert-Ryan

5th Dec 2018, 11:40

I have a tendency to buy into even the wildest of rumours, and even I find that very hard to believe!

N707ZS

5th Dec 2018, 15:13

The KLM rumour had some truth in it they were the supposed tenant for the original South side development which if it had of happened the airport wouldn't be in the current mess. When it was announced back in the eighties the local Councillor Doris Jones who we all know hates aircraft objected to large numbers of planes which they envisaged. The development was put out to government review and after two years of court cases the developer possibly Moorfield Semley won but the contracts were supposedly lost. Amsterdam residents were possibly trying to get shorter opening times at the airport so the cargo was going to come to DTVA. Something for Beafer to dig into. The plans had a cargo ramp and a four lane 747 hangar, the planes on the drawing were in KLM colours so make of it what you like.

SWBKCB

5th Dec 2018, 15:18

the planes on the drawing were in KLM colours so make of it what you like.

I remember the southside development plans, but suspect KLM's involvement is limited to the above. Did KLM even have freighter 747's in the 80's?

Get me some traffic

5th Dec 2018, 22:49

Cautious Optimist

6th Dec 2018, 00:10

^^ Best post ever, forum was much better back in the day when there were more like it.
Let's not get excited until the councillors ratify his plan, because frankly I suspect they will not on principle regardless of whether or not they agree with it.
He only needs to convince three of them, should be doable, touch wood.
Did KLM even have freighter 747's in the 80's?
I don't think any architect who drew up the plans would bother researching what was or wasn't in the KLM fleet, they'd just slap a blue top and white underside on any old plane knowing they were more or less there.
When it was announced back in the eighties the local Councillor Doris Jones who we all know hates aircraft objected to large numbers of planes which they envisaged.
I was at the press conference and she congratulated the Mayor and told him the residents of MSG had never been so depressed about the airport and had started calling it Durham Tees New Town, I nearly ripped her head off for the reason you mention, it's a shame those residents don't know just how much business she has lost the airport over the years, in fact, she's probably more guilty of it than Peel ever were (are).

SWBKCB

6th Dec 2018, 07:15

Improve public transport to EGNV,

Chicken and egg, you've got to have a critical mass of people needing to get to the airport before public transport becomes viable - unless somebody pays up front

provide reasonable destinations that people want,

Such as? Who is going to fly and to where - unless somebody pays up front

Onion makes a very good point in the fact that the £2m loss includes loan payback. The loss should not be so high once the deal is done

So paying back debt "doesn't count"? And does the deal include clearing all outstanding debts - not seen anything mentioned.

There is the £40m to buy the airport, but I've not seen any mention of the costs to turn the airport into an ongoing viable business. Aren't we just back in the same place as when the LA's sold the airport in the first place?

Hipennine

6th Dec 2018, 08:05

highwideandugly get real. Try getting from Darlington to either EGNT or EGNM in an hour. If I were flying from either I would allow at least 2 hours to be safe. Those airports are NOT local airports. People of Teesside are brainwashed into thinking EGNT is their local airport, IT IS NOT!! Improve public transport to EGNV, provide reasonable destinations that people want, market the airport properly as Teesside Airport and we would see pax figures approaching the 2006 levels in no time. If the labour leaders of the five councils oppose the plan they should be ditched as soon as possible. A Tory Mayor proposing a public buy back (nationisation?) is innovative. He has ditched petty party politics for the good of the region. Power to his elbow. Onion makes a very good point in the fact that the £2m loss includes loan payback. The loss should not be so high once the deal is done. Give us back our own airport, it is part of our transport infrastructure.

Population of Teesside combined authority is just over 600k, whereas Tyne and Wear, N.Durham, and Northumberland is just short of 2m. Name another successful UK regional airport with such a low urban hinterland and within the same travel distances to competitive airports. Tesside's commercial base is a lot different now compared to the major business travelling of the days of ICI and British Steel.

Geographically, the nearest equivalent I can think of is Exeter, but the combined pop of Devon and dorset is 1.1m, it's a much longer hike to Bristol or Southampton, and it is the main base for Britain's major (for the time being) regional airline. Where is all this busines coming from?

N707ZS

6th Dec 2018, 09:41

We have been over the population discussion many times, at the end of the day its all down to price and of course advertising. Numerous flights have failed due to advertising and when its gone they saw oh I didn't know about that flight I might of liked to go!
The business flights possibility is interesting also as the mayor supposedly has many international companies interested in his other sites, there seems to be some poaching of these high yield flights by the neighbours.

tigertanaka

6th Dec 2018, 10:25

So paying back debt "doesn't count"? And does the deal include clearing all outstanding debts - not seen anything mentioned.

There is the £40m to buy the airport, but I've not seen any mention of the costs to turn the airport into an ongoing viable business. Aren't we just back in the same place as when the LA's sold the airport in the first place?

The headline figure in an M&A deal is normally on a cash and debt free basis, so the Mayor pays £40m less the debt in the business (which presumably will be settled on completion). At the end of last year there was £12.7m owed to "parent and fellow subsidiary undertakings" (ie Peel companies) accruing debt of LIBOR +2.25% (so about £375k). With this debt settled, the loss will be reduced by the same amount. Is this what you were both referring to Onion and Get me some traffic?

But this just reduces the £2.6m annual loss to £2.2m although the 2017 accounts show some big movements against the prior year (the £1.6m stock impairment looks a bit like a one off to me). It would be interesting to know what the true underlying profitability of the company actually is but I doubt it is losing more than £1m a year.

SWBKCB

6th Dec 2018, 10:36

so the Mayor pays £40m less the debt in the business

Does he? As he's quoting the figure as percentage of the budget, is the £40m not the money going out of the door?

And whether the airport is losing £2m or £1m, that money has to be found from somewhere, and then some more to turn it round.

tigertanaka

6th Dec 2018, 11:37

Does he? As he's quoting the figure as percentage of the budget, is the £40m not the money going out of the door?

And whether the airport is losing £2m or £1m, that money has to be found from somewhere, and then some more to turn it round.

Yes, the £40m will pretty much all go out of the door but will also wipe out the debt in the business. If not, the commitment would be something north of £52m and the mayor would rightly be ripped apart by the Labour councils for using a misleading headline figure.

LTNman

6th Dec 2018, 12:36

The last post says it all..with Brexit et al..aviation UK is in a bit of a kerfuffle

Not strictly true, London't airports, where there is capacity, are showing no signs of a slowdown. Not saying it won't happen so it is more to do with location than Brexit.

highwideandugly

6th Dec 2018, 14:11

London’s airports will always do well,they have the footfall.
Therein is the problem facing the likes of MME/DTV ,the population is just not there.
2 majorish airports within one hour of the airport can’t help. Yes I know the surface transport connections are not fantastic but neither is DTVs.Dont forget the passengers come from an area around the airport,not at the airport.

Look again at Sheffield, they have the potential passengers but no airport..they too are squeezed..but the economy there is still pretty robust despite the lack of a city airport?

Finally..back to the “buy out”. My understanding is that £35 million plus £5million for land was the sum agreed.
The monthly/yearly losses will have to be found from somewhere,be it 1 or 2 million.Who pays that!
Cant see any major airline players queuing up for 2019 or 2020.So that’s at least 2 years of losses to be covered?
Not saying it’s not going to happen..but I agree with others..it’s a long road ahead?

onion

6th Dec 2018, 22:15

The headline figure in an M&A deal is normally on a cash and debt free basis, so the Mayor pays £40m less the debt in the business (which presumably will be settled on completion). At the end of last year there was £12.7m owed to "parent and fellow subsidiary undertakings" (ie Peel companies) accruing debt of LIBOR +2.25% (so about £375k). With this debt settled, the loss will be reduced by the same amount. Is this what you were both referring to Onion and Get me some traffic?

But this just reduces the £2.6m annual loss to £2.2m although the 2017 accounts show some big movements against the prior year (the £1.6m stock impairment looks a bit like a one off to me). It would be interesting to know what the true underlying profitability of the company actually is but I doubt it is losing more than £1m a year.

That is partly it. Without looking over the accounts again I can't be accurate, but in my professional opinion they do look odd as a whole.
It is my belief that Peel have been writing down the true value of the land while saddling the airport with loans!
If I remember rightly it states that any loan going from the airport back to Peel is interest free!

oldart

7th Dec 2018, 09:25

SWBKCB

7th Dec 2018, 13:27

Experts wanted for airport deal as politicians prepare to 'get their teeth' into it (https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/experts-wanted-airport-deal-politicians-15519128)

Cllr Sue Jeffrey, leader of Redcar and Cleveland Council, wanted to see the plan tested properly - with experts from Transport for the North, Peel and the aviation industry offering their opinions. The Labour leader added: "As far as we know this particular purchase of £40m is not going to buy us any new flights, it's not going to buy us any greater passenger numbers, it's not going upgrade the airport infrastructure and it's not going to provide any improvements to road and rail links - all it's going to do is buy land and buildings."

Exchanges were heated at times on Thursday as councillors mulled over what information they'd gleaned so far.

Cllr Matt Vickers, leader of Stockton Council (https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/all-about/stockton-council) Conservatives, hit out at Cllr Jeffrey for calling the airport deal a "vanity project" ahead of the announcement. "It seems to me to be the only thing locally the Labour party don't want to nationalise," he added.

southside bobby

7th Dec 2018, 15:49

Stobart name appears as a potential DTV operator...

May I take the opportunity then (the first of many no doubt) to suggest DTV-SEN & perhaps DTV-CAX...!!.

Lancelot37

7th Dec 2018, 16:09

In the days when MME was doing better, travel agents were trying to push people towards Newcastle, this happened to me twice trying to book a holiday even though there was a flight from MME.
I was told that the travel agent got a better commission from selling Newcastle flights, did anyone else have this experience?

It also happened to me twice and when I confronted the Travel Agent, she denied it but wouldn't say why she had pointed me to Newcastle.

Robert-Ryan

7th Dec 2018, 16:38

Where does Stobarts name appear please? Do we really want them in?!

SWBKCB

8th Dec 2018, 10:52

Where does Stobarts name appear please? Do we really want them in?!

The Logisitcs giant is a different company to the one that runs airports..

DURHAM COUNTY COUNCIL: Airport could be run by logistics giant - Hartlepool Mail (https://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/transport/durham-tees-valley-airport-could-be-run-by-logistics-giant-1-9482996)

And Doris is back on the case

Durham Tees Valley Airport sale deal sparks link road proposal concern (https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/17284505.durham-tees-valley-airport-sale-deal-sparks-link-road-proposal-concern/)

N707ZS

8th Dec 2018, 19:09

Is Doris on the pay role for Newcastle airport?

oldart

9th Dec 2018, 08:56

What would a certain cllr done if MME was still a noisy RAF base with QRA aircraft defending the country?

EGPO

9th Dec 2018, 10:31

Noone can say that they did not turn round the fortunes of Southend , which if my dim memory serves was , pretty much dead until they came in.
Now it's got a healthy operation.
As for Carlisle that one the less said the better .
MME did work , so there cannot be any reason can't be again in the future.
But with Brexit looming who can say.

SWBKCB

9th Dec 2018, 10:43

Noone can say that they did not turn round the fortunes of Southend , which if my dim memory serves was , pretty much dead until they came in. Now it's got a healthy operation.

They've spent an awful lot of money, we'll call it healthy when they start seeing a return.

MME did work , so there cannot be any reason can't be again in the future.

Agian, depends what you mean by "did work" - make enough money to allow the owners to invest and develop the airport?

Lancelot37

9th Dec 2018, 10:48

I wonder how many airports finances are in the black. The last time that I checked Newcastle was about £350,000,000 in the red. Has anything changed?

SWBKCB

9th Dec 2018, 11:51

Depends what you mean by in the red - if you earn enough to cover what you've spent to develop the business and make a return to your owners, that's fine. As I understand it that's the postion NCL is in - MME weren't and I don't think SEN is.

Robert-Ryan

9th Dec 2018, 12:53

Southend's position is far from healthy if you look at their finances. Airports like Newcastle can afford to rack up debt and loss like it's nobody's business knowing fine well they''ll still be around for decades to come.

SWBKCB

9th Dec 2018, 13:03

Airports like Newcastle can afford to rack up debt and loss like it's nobody's business knowing fine well they''ll still be around for decades to come.

Sounds like a strange business plan - and NCL returns a dividend from operating profits to it's owners most years?

Be interesting to see what the Mayor comes up with, but on first appearances it seems we are know back where we were when the LA's sold the airport to Peel in the first place - back in public control but without the money to develop it. Either one of the airport operator who have signed NDA's will be investing as well as operating the airport (Peel mk 2) or it's going to be more taxpayers money.

10 DME ARC

9th Dec 2018, 14:13

Newcastle's loss or profit comes after money is paid out on repayments/interest on financing that was mostly taken out to pay for the 49% plus some expansion! Once this has been paid out any money left over is paid out as dividends. This is standard in any business or personal finance, you can have as much debt as you can cover!!

oldart

11th Dec 2018, 08:53

I think the phrase is 'Speculate to accumulate '. Larger hangers are required for engineering, aircraft resprays and freight etc. I believe the airport cannot survive on just passengers alone.

SWBKCB

11th Dec 2018, 09:02

I think the phrase is 'Speculate to accumulate '. Larger hangers are required for engineering, aircraft resprays and freight etc. I believe the airport cannot survive on just passengers alone.

Which is what the Masterplan was about. Peel planned to do it by using the money from the housing development. Presumably the mayor has other plans.

David Thompson

11th Dec 2018, 22:23

The hotel closed for business several days ago but has been open again today for pre-sale viewing of the entire hotel contents including function rooms , kitchen , bar and bedrooms which will be auctioned off tomorrow , Wednesday 12th. . I called in and had free rein around the hotel and took the opportunity to have a good look around parts of the hotel normally off-limits to the visiting public and found that the 'back office' services area was quite extensive but probably much altered since it's days as an officers mess . Sadly the building is or rather was crying out for investment to modernise it and it will be interesting to see if it will have a future should Mayor Houchen's buy-out plan be accepted by the local authorities .

Details of the auction and the contents for sale can be found here ; Auction: Under instructions from Tower Hotel Management (Part of the Peel Group) we are instructed to offer for sale by public auction the contents of The St George Hotel, Durham Tees Valley Airport, Darlington, DL2 1RH ON SITE at the property. - Lit (http://www.lithgowsauctions.com/auction-details.php?auction_id=947) .

tigertanaka

12th Dec 2018, 13:18

MATELO

12th Dec 2018, 15:39

This thread may have to be renamed shortly. Teeside Airport could be back.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-tees-46521226

No-More-Bullschit

12th Dec 2018, 16:16

No idea why he's commissioned a poll, he knows very well what the result will be.

oldart

13th Dec 2018, 08:43

Comments made on the BBC news site about runways lengths, I believe Newcastle is 7642 feet long with TODA of 7887 feet and MME is 7516 feet long with TODA of 8432 feet.
For aircraft performance they are almost identical, unless someone else believes otherwise.

Robert-Ryan

13th Dec 2018, 11:59

I recall them taking steps to fix it but NCL had a delve in the middle of their runway pronounced enough to require a tech stop for some long haul flights, so whilst shorter in length we technically had the longer runway

SWBKCB

13th Dec 2018, 12:23

Of the issues facing MME, runway length isn't one of them. The issue at NCL as I understand it is high ground off the 25 end which restricts some heavy departures.

N707ZS

13th Dec 2018, 12:27

Certain engine powered A320s couldn't leave with a full fuel load off 25 due to the high ground, thus they diverted to DTVA.

Beafer

13th Dec 2018, 19:17

New road approved.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/10m-airport-road-squeezed-round-15545959

N707ZS

13th Dec 2018, 22:29

Middleton St George Parish Council objected to the plan on the basis that the link road is the only access to 1.9 million sq ft of development and is "totally inadequate for the task".
Wonder what the parish council would say if the road was built from the South end of the airfield and used the road through they're village!

Beafer

17th Dec 2018, 10:13

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/put-party-politics-aside-letter-15551282

SWBKCB

17th Dec 2018, 10:28

Well they would, wouldn't they?

there is strong evidence to suggest that a new operator with a 21st Century outlook can make a success of it.

This is an interesting quote - is there? Where?

N707ZS

17th Dec 2018, 11:02

40 business leaders support the Mayors plan.
Thought the mayors plan was still confidential.

SWBKCB

17th Dec 2018, 13:24

skyman771

17th Dec 2018, 23:40

Council's response

Labour wants a 'thriving' Teesside airport - but can't back plan without knowing 'fundamental' details (https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/labour-wants-thriving-teesside-airport-15561034)

Is it just me, but surely at this early stage then all that can happen is that in changing owners, then a specified liability passes from one entity to another for a considerable capital sum of £x million or whatever. Irrespective as to this cost, then in theory, "the asset" DTV carry's the burden of a necessity to provide a sound and realistic chance of providing a return on capital invested to the regional councils.
Is it not simply that the backstop to all of this is that the "insurance / security" in structuring such a deal, is that if all else fails then some form of recovery of capital will necessarily need to be derived? & that can only be from the future sale of the only real asset i.e the existing land !
i.e. that for a bottom line, then all that has changed is that the organisation in charge of the land disposal would be the local authorities as opposed to a more commercial conglomerate "Peel Holdings".
One has to accept that if the transfer goes ahead, then in the short term at least, then there will perhaps be a completely different attitude as to what profile of operations is envisaged. No doubt it is seen that the way forward is to turn back around operations and attract new operators operating flights all across Europe, if not even further afield..... But here is the problem, the amount of "further" investment to take this on & drive the airport forward into a position that it can compete with it's competitors is immense.
The buildings & infrastructure are stuck in the 1980's, & the current facilities are not set up for volume. The airport is going to suck up further tens of £million's of investment just to bring it up to standard. Where does this money come from ?
However perhaps the greatest issue is that Teesside has over the past 40 years lost a vast amount of it's major industry, and taking in the general economic conditions it must be doubtful that there is a significantly large enough demand to support any DTV resurrection over the next 5 years at least. Additionally it would be naive to assume that the competition would sit back and allow any further competition attack their market without a fight, thus restricting margins obtainable on any new route development.
In all of this the sentiment is commendable, but in reality have any of the current players really got a clue, let alone the depth of experience and resource financial or otherwise to carry this through ??

SWBKCB

18th Dec 2018, 05:03

Skyman - spot on. :ok: The Mayor has said how he plans to finance the purchase but there has been no detail yet as to where the investment to turn round the airport is going to come from.

The Peel plan was to use the profit from the housing, but the Mayor has explicitly excluded this - so what else?

N707ZS

18th Dec 2018, 05:43

The best plan would be to develop the Southside land but as we can already see the parish councillors are already against this. Then if you do develop the land who really wants it. It all looks like a game of cards at the moment.

tigertanaka

18th Dec 2018, 06:51

Packed flight to AMS this morning, I counted 2 empty seats.

onion

18th Dec 2018, 07:59

SWBCKB how much do you actually think Peel were going to get for land with planning permission for 350 houses on it? Bearing in mind Peel would probably brought in a specialist house builder. I would say £25m would of been very optimistic.
Let's say it was, with the debts to other Peel companies and loss of £2m a year £25m would not of lasted long.
Realistically Peel would of been in no better position with the airport and all a housing development would do is eat into valuable land, create more complaints and restrict any future expansion... If Peel were ever serious at running the airport.
Peels claim that the housing would of saved the place and paid for investment in the airport is laughable.
All it ever was was the prelude to closure.

oldart

18th Dec 2018, 08:58

MME is never going to be a large airport, we all know that. However many passengers liked the idea of a few paces from entrance to aircraft, not having to go through a maze of duty free shops and then trying to get a seat airside. Some might argue that buying in duty free is cheaper, however most super markets are able to offer similar pricing. I can't see the need to spend a large amount of money on the passenger terminal, check in and security would cope in the short term.

SWBKCB

18th Dec 2018, 09:45

Peels claim that the housing would of saved the place and paid for investment in the airport is laughable

Possibly, but at least Peel said where the money for investment was coming from.

I can't see the need to spend a large amount of money on the passenger terminal, check in and security would cope in the short term.

But how do you pay to keep the airport going and develop it?

oldart

18th Dec 2018, 11:06

Possibly, but at least Peel said where the money for investment was coming from.

But how do you pay to keep the airport going and develop it?
I presume you mean increased flights and passengers alone would not pay for future development. TNT were here at one time for aviation freight, why did they pull out?

SWBKCB

18th Dec 2018, 11:32

I presume you mean increased flights and passengers alone would not pay for future development.

Yes - why do you think other airports have "a maze of duty free shops"? Passengers might like a short walk, but are they prepared to pay for it? Look at the fuss over the £6 fee.

tigertanaka

18th Dec 2018, 13:29

Yes - why do you think other airports have "a maze of duty free shops"? Passengers might like a short walk, but are they prepared to pay for it? Look at the fuss over the £6 fee.

It will be interesting to see the plan to improve the profitability, although I think the underlying losses (ie stripping out Peel's fees and one offs) are closer to £1m rather than £2m - still big numbers in any case.

However, 70,000 departing passengers a year probably raises something just under £350,000 in departure fees for the airport (deducting the VAT and assuming that 99% of pax are adults). I can't see that remaining if the mayor wants to tempt back TUI or Ryanair - so the airport would be faced with significantly lower income than today.

So how will they increase the revenue? More routes might mean more landing fees, although in order to attract new airlines, landing fees would probably have to be heavily subsidised (or even free) for the first year or so. Car parking charges are already high so difficult to see how they might realistically be increased. The duty free shop could easily be reopened but does anyone make money on selling duty free to EU passengers? (although Brexit could make selling duty free very attractive again).

Of course, more passengers would mean extra income for the cafe and lounge but the place will need a hell of a big injection of passengers (and also freight) to balance the books.

mmeman

18th Dec 2018, 22:57

Re the competition - surely the competition is who the airport will want to attract - so a TUI/Jet2/Thomas Cook or such like aircraft being redeployed from Newcastle or Leeds to be based here to satisfy the local demand - there isn't anyone that doesn't already serve Newcastle or Leeds that would fly from here, is there?

What else could there be? - Loganair Carlisle - Durham - Southend?

Back to the here and now - Eastern/Flybe Aberdeen, down to 2 flights a day Mon-Thu, and 1 flight on a Friday. Sunday flight looks to be on a based J41, up until the end of March 2019 (Humberside the same but not on a J41? and they lose the Sunday, but Newcastle who have historically been carrying a lot less passengers than both here and Humberside, keep the 3 flights a day)

skyman771

18th Dec 2018, 23:10

It will be interesting to see the plan to improve the profitability, although I think the underlying losses (ie stripping out Peel's fees and one offs) are closer to £1m rather than £2m - still big numbers in any case..
I think you have touched on the issue with a misquote, you can't increase profitability, as the airport has always made losses (at least in living memory...), i.e it has never been "profitable", so you have to address & stem the losses before anything else. To do this you can attack costs though there is a tangible limit as to how much of a reduction can be made.
We are thus back to the key issue that to get anywhere at all then you have to increase revenues ! as to how effective this will be will depend upon the margin achieved in doing so.
So putting it bluntly "substantial increase in revenue, at as high a margin as possible " is all that is required. I have no way of defining substantial, though for a credible business model to be put forward I'd say that this should be clearly defined, as would be a breakdown in the components so as to support the margin thrown out by the business models calculations & assumptions.
As a starter in this process you need air services & pax to support them, which leads to increase in overheads, labour, marketing are just a few items. There may be existing resource in place to support any initial uplift in pax volumes, i.e. accommodation, airfield and pax facilities & access. However I can not see that current resource will support anywhere near the number of pax required to cover all current overheads i.e. the airport would continue to accumulate losses until a critical number of pax reached.
It is not just a about quoting a pax number, as substantial capital spend would be required to expand & improve current facilities, & upon the assumption that at this point the airport is still recording losses, then you have the addition costs & problems of raising the capital required to support the necessary expansion.
With all the above to address, then you have perhaps the biggest problem of attracting air services (at any cost) to draw in the pax in the first instance.
In conclusion there is an almost impossible vicious circle to break to move any plan forward and it will necessarily require the support of heaps of speculative cash investment. This will also not come cheap as the greater the risk, the greater the cost of capital.= & so it goes on.
I really do just wonder if the mayor has a plan, or more importantly if he has is it anywhere near realistically achievable. Personally I'll repeat what I have said earlier that I don't see it as remotely achievable for the foreseeable future and that the whole project will become an ever increasing expense on the local authorities. Regretfully I can't see any viability at all and that it makes more sense to invest in transport infrastructure to support and create better access to airports already established, be it MAN, NCL, LBA etc.

tigertanaka

19th Dec 2018, 07:16

I think you have touched on the issue with a misquote, you can't increase profitability, as the airport has always made losses (at least in living memory...), i.e it has never been "profitable", so you have to address & stem the losses before anything else.
.

It is not a misquote, profitability is a relative measure and can be negative as well as positive. Also, I used the word improve not increase.

Jamesair

19th Dec 2018, 08:46

MMEMAN.... NCL does retain three flights per day to ABZ but one of them becomes part of the new LCY route.

mmeman

19th Dec 2018, 21:48

Back to the here and now - Eastern/Flybe Aberdeen, down to 2 flights a day Mon-Thu, and 1 flight on a Friday. Sunday flight looks to be on a based J41, up until the end of March 2019 (Humberside the same but not on a J41? and they lose the Sunday, but Newcastle who have historically been carrying a lot less passengers than both here and Humberside, keep the 3 flights a day)[/QUOTE]

Changes might be afoot on this - booking flights to Aberdeen again, and looks like the 3rd flight might be restored, but it is a HUY-MME-ABZ-MME-HUY type of operation for the 3rd flight.- different times depending on the day of the week.

SWBKCB

20th Dec 2018, 05:03

This thread may have to be renamed shortly. Teeside Airport could be back.

Durham Tees Valley Airport to become Teesside International if Mayor's deal is approved (https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/17309425.durham-tees-valley-airport-to-become-teesside-international-if-mayors-deal-is-approved/)

N707ZS

20th Dec 2018, 05:32

Name change, there's the first few million gone!

apaul

20th Dec 2018, 17:41

A fat return for Peel considering the 75% they bought for £500,000 in 2003 and a lot of public money flushed down the toilet by the mayor.

highwideandugly

20th Dec 2018, 17:42

It’s ....Stobarts...the winner(potential). Operator of Teesside International Airports...

Oh well..Southend and Carlisle ,will provide the experience..

N707ZS

20th Dec 2018, 19:16

One of the other whispered operators runs Coventry airport. No thank you.

tigertanaka

21st Dec 2018, 18:26

October CAA stats:
Terminal passengers: 12,468 - up 10% v prior year
Aberdeen: 1,646 - down 32%
Amsterdam: 10,657 - up 26%

Best month on Amsterdam since April 2008. Aberdeen down due to the extra Loganair flights last year but in line with October 2016.

Rolling 12 month passengers: 140,971 - on course to be the best year for the airport since 2014 - still at a low base of course.

November CAA stats:
Terminal passengers: 11,426 - down 4% v prior year
Aberdeen: 1,498 - down 51%
Amsterdam: 9,894 - up 19%

After two 10,000+ months, Amsterdam dropped slightly but last month was still the best November on the route for 10 years. Aberdeen down due to the extra Loganair flights last year but was also down on November 2016.

Rolling 12 month passengers: 140,556

Beafer

23rd Dec 2018, 21:31

Some good photo's of years gone by. Muhammed Ali shown arriving at Teesside in 1977.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/how-teesside-airport-looked-spain-15567193

Merry xmas everyone :)

Beafer

28th Dec 2018, 14:18

The latest share confirmation statement has been published on the DTVA Ltd airport accounts. Large numbers of shares.
Different types of shares. It would appear Peel are paying themselves before any deal is done for a change in ownership
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423/filing-history

The full accounts are due end of the month.

Flightrider

28th Dec 2018, 14:54

Beafer - the confirmation statement published at Companies House is a statement of the company's share capital. The number of issued shares in each class is exactly the same as it was in the same declaration 12 months earlier. There's been no change in the number of issued shares or the share structure of the company. How have you reached the conclusion stated in your posting above based on this information?

N707ZS

28th Dec 2018, 15:55

How have you reached the conclusion stated in your posting above based on this information? Because as usual he's barking up the wrong tree.

TartinTon

28th Dec 2018, 16:06

Because he/she's an armchair idiot with no idea as to what a Confirmation Statement is or represents.

Doctor Cruces

28th Dec 2018, 18:19

It's so sad to see this airport reduced to this. For many years it was my local airport, that was after it ceased being RAF Middleton St George. My father and I used to go there to watch the Javelins and Hunters and then the Lightnings as well as all the transports toing and froing along with the Practice Divs. Then the RAF beefed it up and lengthened the runway to be a V Force dispersal. and my Dad said, "They're going to sell it" They did and it became Tees Side Airport with BKS and Dan Air flying schedules and Monarch and others doing charters from there.

Through the Aero Club we got very friendly with the Control Tower staff and would visit the tower every Tuesday and Thursday evenings and all Saturday afternoon. Len Taylor was SATCO and John Henderson took over when Len went to New Zealand.Schedules and charters galore and even managed a trip or two when TAROM and Bavaria were crew training on the BAC 1-11. BEA did all their BAC1-11 series 500 training at Tees Side and we spent many a happy hour watching them. British Eagle were regular crew training visits too with their Britannias and BAC 1-11s. Got a trip with them in a 1-11. Channel Airways operated their daily "Scottish Flyer" originating BOH or EXT (time clouds the memory) and stopping at various points up the country before terminating at ABZ, ISTR, and then back down again. Even managed to get on board the first Lockheed TriStar to visit Europe when it came in to do a sales pitch to someone or other. I remember it was HUGE in comparison and in Eastern Airlines colours. We even had a service to Luton by Autair, later to become Court Line. They were frequently late and I remember the local slogan went, "Time to spare? Go Autair".

This rambles a bit, but it's mostly coming out as I remember things from when I was a pre teenager as well as in my teens and as a young adult. I'm well into my sixties now so, bear with me.

I remember Dan Air operating services with Dakotas and Airspeed Ambassadors as well as BKS using Ambassadors and Britannias on scheduled services. The air terminal was a large Nissen Hut down by the Eastern Apron. I was allowed to walk out to the aeroplanes and help escort the passengers in. Because I was so well known, there wasn't really anywhere I wasn't allowed to go sometimes with escort but also without. The fire section was Auxilliary Fire Service with the infamous Green Goddesses and I was taught how to marshal aircraft by one of the fireman. A far cry from today, but this was in the early sixties. I didn't appreciate at the time what a huge privilege this was with so many people looking out for me and teaching me everything I could absorb at such an early age.

This led to my first job in aviation when one of my contacts from "The Good Old Days" told me British Midland were looking for a Traffic Officer. I applied and got the job, starting work at week ends while I served my notice elsewhere. They operated four MME-LHR rotations a day with the Viscount. Apart from the airport, which didn't do a lot of it, we were the only handling agent on the place and were kept busy with our own flights, Dan Air's HS748s, Air Anglia, Dan Air charter flights to the Canaries, Spain and Italy and even Air Spain with their Stretch DC8s did a charter series to somewhere or other I can't quite remember (I think it may have been TFS).

It was a far busier place then and can't believe the decline it has suffered. Even in my early days, NCL was always the Big Airport and the Bogeyman trying to steal all our traffic.

N707ZS

28th Dec 2018, 19:13

Doctor Cruces, did you take any photographs that you can share?

highwideandugly

28th Dec 2018, 19:22

I remember Treffield Britannias crew training!

Beafer

28th Dec 2018, 22:38

SWBKCB

29th Dec 2018, 06:01

It would appear Peel are paying themselves before any deal is done for a change in ownership

but aren't those shares paid a dividend, or am I mistaken? Isn't that what the confirmation is stating?

Supplying the statement is a legal obligation - it shows those shares which are entitled to be paid a dividend but doesn't give any indication as to whether a dividend has been paid, will be paid or any amount involved.

The statement for 2018 is the same as 2017 and 2016. Not sure what your point is?

Doctor Cruces

29th Dec 2018, 14:22

Doctor Cruces, did you take any photographs that you can share?

Had loads but lost them all when my father died. Evil Gold-digger step mother cleared everything of him and us out in no time flat. Didn't get a look in!!

N707ZS

29th Dec 2018, 18:45

That's a big shame!

oldart

30th Dec 2018, 09:32

Living in Thornaby was very handy for left base for 23. The 70's brought a lot of training aircraft as already mentioned, one day springs to mind when Dan Air had a BAC 111 and Comet 4 plus a BEA Vanguard in the circuit, not easy for local training school Charlie 1,2 or 3 to get a look in.

highwideandugly

30th Dec 2018, 16:28

Great crew training memories!

Back to today..another site mentions that the Cobham contract is up for grabs? If memory serves me right it was worth..a few years ago..2million to the airport per year?

If and of course..it’s a big if..How will that affect the Mayors financial plans and budget if a buy out is successful?

Still interesting times!

SWBKCB

30th Dec 2018, 18:18

The current contract is to be replaced by a new programme from 2020 (Cobham is in one of the competing teams) - see link below

MoD outlines scope of ASDOT aggressor project (https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/farnborough-mod-outlines-scope-of-asdot-aggressor-p-427454/)

highwideandugly

30th Dec 2018, 19:02

Sorry..I meant to add..if and of course, it’s a big if..what happens if the contract is lost?
The aircraft are getting on now(FA20) and rumour is,a lot of the new contract will be simulator based.

In other words..can the airport afford to loose that revenue every year?

Robert-Ryan

30th Dec 2018, 20:06

I'd be lying if I said I wasn't worried, mainly because of the loss of business but also the prospect of Mirage F1s

mmeman

6th Jan 2019, 11:41

Atlantic Explorer

6th Jan 2019, 14:14

According to Flightradar (so might not be correct!) Eastern EMB-145 on some Aberdeen flights from tomorrow - Shared with Humberside. (ER4 based at Humberside operating all their ABZ flights). Looks like different flights depending on which day.

ATR72 on tonight's flight.

Guessing it’s using spare assets since they’ve lost the Airbus contract and have pretty much the whole EMB Fleet without much work now.

HUY-MME-ABZ not a great or efficient use of an EMB 145.

highwideandugly

6th Jan 2019, 18:35

Interesting couple of months while the potential sale/takeover goes through.
Got me thinking...are PEEL still committed during this possible transition period..ie...upkeep,repairs potential small investments, airline searches,etc. Or does it all get put on the back burner? I suppose it’s logical they don’t want to spend too much cash and look ahead too far..pending the outcome?

Much to Beefers pleasure, but I’m sure the local news reported that all previous disclosures regarding the original sale will be published mid month?

Gunfighter52

6th Jan 2019, 19:53

In an e-mail from Ben, he stated that the potential operator and their business plan will also be revealed before the month is out, could make for interesting reading.

No-More-Bullschit

6th Jan 2019, 20:18

The annual review on the movements website suggested anything costing money was on hold, yet they're pressing ahead with a new radar? The news piece was full disclosure regarding the current sale not the previous.

SWBKCB

6th Jan 2019, 20:24

Running an airport is an expensive business, I would expect that there are things they have to spend money on.

I agree that it is the current deal that the Mayor has promised full dsclosure on.

fjencl

6th Jan 2019, 22:40

Guessing it’s using spare assets since they’ve lost the Airbus contract and have pretty much the whole EMB Fleet without much work now.

HUY-MME-ABZ not a great or efficient use of an EMB 145.
Perhaps they can help out BMI Regional if eastern have spare EMB sitting around without much work.

Atlantic Explorer

7th Jan 2019, 16:12

Perhaps they can help out BMI Regional if eastern have spare EMB sitting around without much work.

bmi Regional are operating for Eastern with an EMB 145 on the ABZ -NWI route! That was a 2 year contract as far as I can remember. Ironic now really.

highwideandugly

7th Jan 2019, 19:52

Running an airport is an expensive business, I would expect that there are things they have to spend money on.

I agree that it is the current deal that the Mayor has promised full dsclosure on.

Sorry ..thought it was the original! Still will be interesting!

interesting though..who is planning for the future??

Beafer

7th Jan 2019, 21:14

Note the red writing - Accounts overdue.
Wonder what's going on at Peel?
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423

onion

8th Jan 2019, 07:58

Note the red writing - Accounts overdue.
Wonder what's going on at Peel?
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423
Loch Ness Monster, Big Foot, Yeti and MME/Peel!
Beafer you really have no clue do you.
There could be many reasons why the accounts are overdue. Many companies file late.
In this case it could be because of the proposed take over, they could be filing for an extension, they could be just late or companies house could be slow in uploading them... it was Christmas and New Year you know and 31st December is just about the busiest day for year ends in business.
The red writing is just a line in the programming just to highlight they are late, nothing particularly special, now if it was orange or purple that would be worth talking about!

Beafer

8th Jan 2019, 14:25

Loch Ness Monster, Big Foot, Yeti and MME/Peel!
Beafer you really have no clue do you.
There could be many reasons why the accounts are overdue. Many companies file late.
In this case it could be because of the proposed take over, they could be filing for an extension, they could be just late or companies house could be slow in uploading them... it was Christmas and New Year you know and 31st December is just about the busiest day for year ends in business.
The red writing is just a line in the programming just to highlight they are late, nothing particularly special, now if it was orange or purple that would be worth talking about!

You'll be the one who has a clue then Onion - not.
Late accounts from Peel - is that normal for a very large company with many limited side companies? Its all done electronically these days so its not a postal delay.
Not sure what the loch ness monster has anything to do with it, so best stay off the sherry Onion ;)

onion

8th Jan 2019, 15:52

[b]

You'll be the one who has a clue then Onion - not.
Late accounts from Peel - is that normal for a very large company with many limited side companies? Its all done electronically these days so its not a postal delay.
Not sure what the loch ness monster has anything to do with it, so best stay off the sherry Onion ;)

I may have a clue as it's part of my day to day job!
Just out of interest did you comment on Jet2Holidays late filing of accounts in Jan 2018? Electronic you say?

Don't drink sherry prefer whiskey/whisky 😉

No-More-Bullschit

8th Jan 2019, 16:06

Beafer why retaliate when almost everyone holds you in the same regard? Numbers are very much on Onions side thus it can be taken as a given that his "you really have no clue do you" comment is truth rather than opinion :ok:

onion

8th Jan 2019, 16:13

One more company for you Beafer who are late too.....
Airline Investment Limited, have you commented on either of their pages on this forum 🤔
I'm off for a well earned whiskey 😉😁

highwideandugly

8th Jan 2019, 20:06

Bad day for Amsterdam passengers today..weather over there?

Interestingly all Newcastle flights operated normally? Wonder why all DTV flights were the ones affected?(amongst others)

Onion..try and find some Special Brew original..more effective in dealing with Beafer! Cheers

flybar

8th Jan 2019, 21:18

N707ZS

8th Jan 2019, 21:30

Anyone know anything about the mystery company in the list of company names the hound dug up? Who is Trushelfco. And I wonder how much it cost to remove the hyphen!
TEESSIDE INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT LIMITED11 Dec 1986 - 20 Sep 2004
TEES-SIDE INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT LIMITED10 Nov 1986 - 11 Dec 1986
TRUSHELFCO (NO. 1007) LIMITED16 May 1986 - 10 Nov 1986

Gunfighter52

8th Jan 2019, 22:45

I can't post a link to the page, but a web search of Trushelfco brings up a Freedom of Information request, which states that is often used as a placeholder name for future businesses. In fact, 3167 companies have been named Trushelfco.

P330

9th Jan 2019, 05:53

A vast amount of KLM flights were cancelled yesterday: the majority of which were Cityhopper but also some mainline. The reason was strong northerly winds causing capacity issues on the runway as such the lower volume flights were pulled. NCL is pretty much a 737 operation.

davidjohnson6

9th Jan 2019, 07:50

Discussion elsewhere on the web about Amsterdam airport having largely reached its annual cap on aircraft movements per year. The obvious next step is to encourage airlines to deploy larger aircraft on routes. In particular, routes with multiple flights on smaller aircraft (eg KLM Cityhopper routes) might instead end up with larger aircraft but lower frequencies

Is MME a candidate for this ?

SWBKCB

9th Jan 2019, 08:00

Only KLM will know - it depends on how it impacts on their hub business model. I would have thought that MME is at the minimum level in terms of frequencies if there is (as has always been suggested) a high level of connecting traffic.

Beafer

9th Jan 2019, 19:04

Re DTVA Ltd, one of the companies service charges was satisfied at Companies house just before the new year - The legal charge related to Middlesbrough Council and the St.George Hotel land.

A separate charge is still outstanding. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423/charges

onion

9th Jan 2019, 22:19

Beafer

10th Jan 2019, 13:06

Peel make a press announcement regarding the airport.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/airport-boss-says-unlikely-last-15653713

Robert-Ryan

10th Jan 2019, 14:05

Whilst "extremely uncertain future after 2021" is far from good, it's also far from a confirmation of closure that the press and politicians are twisting it into. If the takeover falls through am I worried about my job after 2021? No. Not one jot.

P330

10th Jan 2019, 14:30

Agree completely Robert. Keep the arguments sensible I say....the press release today undermines the credible arguments out there and makes this a political discussion.

Who knows what will happen post 2021. The AMS slot issues are as much a risk as anything else...thankfully our loads are holding up and in fact increasing for now.

I watched the video on backbensplan.com yesterday and there were some nice sound bytes. But it frustrates me when business people are backing it because they need a LHR link and believe this could happen under new ownership!

SWBKCB

10th Jan 2019, 16:08

Agree completely Robert. Keep the arguments sensible I say....the press release today undermines the credible arguments out there and makes this a political discussion.

If taxpayers are funding it, how is it not a political discussion?

tigertanaka

10th Jan 2019, 17:02

If taxpayers are funding it, how is it not a political discussion?

I think he meant that it should not become a Red v Blue discussion. The acquisition should be judged on its merits rather than on the political alignment of the individuals concerned.

SWBKCB

10th Jan 2019, 18:02

Ah right - amen to that!

P330

10th Jan 2019, 18:03

Indeed I did. I also meant but probably didn't articulate well is that there are some good arguments out there for the plan without stooping to scare tactics (as they are now).

oldart

11th Jan 2019, 13:38

So is the Stobart connection to MME through their part take over of Flybe?

N707ZS

11th Jan 2019, 14:17

oldart Stobart are an airport operating company, they operate Southend and Carlisle. It is rumoured the mayor has asked them to run DTVA for him. The Flybe business is something totally different.

highwideandugly

11th Jan 2019, 19:00

Interesting as always..infrastructure probably needs updated soon.Rumours of runway and taxiway remedial work in next couple of years.

Increase in staffing and cost of the buildings..so will Stobarts take on those costs? Do they pay a yearly rent to the councils or a one of payment of say £10 million per 5 years..my guess...to operate and develop the airport?

As I said ..interesting times ahead.

onion

11th Jan 2019, 19:22

Well they have a lease till 2144 on Southend airport of which they valued the lease at about £43m.
I believe the land and buildings at Southend are valued at £129m+

oldart

12th Jan 2019, 09:20

oldart Stobart are an airport operating company, they operate Southend and Carlisle. It is rumoured the mayor has asked them to run DTVA for him. The Flybe business is something totally different.
If Stobart were going to operate MME, surely as part share owner of Flybe (Flyvirgin) they would want to use their own airline on more routes from the airport.

EGPO

13th Jan 2019, 14:35

I recall the Stobart manager at CAX proudly and quite happy to tell us they had offered easyJet the sane deal as they did to entice them to Southend , t
( No fees ).
Though I did think the idea of ab easyJet 319 , I do know you can get a 320 in there as the Vulcan could use the old main runway and it's the same length as Vagaries.
But it Won't! Be seeing easyJet.
However MME, perhaps if Stobart do rescue it and do the same there might just entice easyJet to base one or two Aircraft there .
But then would it really work when Loganair couldn't make it work , or was that because they laid on the same route as was already present .
Perhaps if it had been Inverness or Stanstead( for example, or Edinburgh) it might have kept them .
And would if the Airport closes that all coveted route that KLM operate goto another Peel Airport , Eg DSA, ( I thought they'd tried LPL but hadn't stayed ).
Either way they cannot allow it to close , history shows us, that Airport can make money , folk would argue , yes but it's been NCL , LBA and an ever busier DSA But apart from. The latter those other airports where present before , and just as busy.
It does seem odd, that Peel let it go as far down as it did . Unless it was the land they wanted from the start .

Robert-Ryan

13th Jan 2019, 15:01

EGPO, could barely understand that! But to comment on the last line, the land is valued at £250m, if they ever only wanted the land they wouldn't have accepted £40m for it.

skyman771

14th Jan 2019, 20:24

EGPO, could barely understand that! But to comment on the last line, the land is valued at £250m, if they ever only wanted the land they wouldn't have accepted £40m for it.
Taken in isolation this is NOT a valid statement, in reality the realizable value of the land is £40m !!!
Please do not make out Peal to be benevolent hero's !!

Robert-Ryan

14th Jan 2019, 22:04

I ain't making them out to be hero's, the Mayor himself admitted if he couldn't make the airport work they had £250m worth of developable land

Robert-Ryan

16th Jan 2019, 10:24

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/bold-teesside-airport-plan-attract-15685166

Irresponsible and in cloud-cuckoo-land!!

'We will target EasyJet because their planes already use the airport for training' - can't fail with that reasoning!!!

And also not going to happen now that the goal posts have moved and the full five TVCA members need to unanimously vote it in, not just a majority

P330

16th Jan 2019, 10:50

Just read the Gazette piece. It's all
about passenger traffic in favour of recreational destinations. It predicts itself that losses would continue for years even in the most optimistic scenario.

My appetite is waning! I thought this would be a small
part of the plan and the bigger piece would be about freight, other airport ops and modest changes to business routes. Going after EasyJet and Flybe is a monumental risk. If it were that easy...it would have been done.

Much more pessimistic today!!

SWBKCB

16th Jan 2019, 11:16

Hopefully there have been more meaningful indications of interest from Easy than a few training flights - on that basis Prestwick would be the busiest airport in the UK. Cardiff is cited as a possible model, as pax have inc by 50% since that went into public ownership (though Prestwick is also public owned, so could just have easily have been used as an example).

The growth at Cardiff is mainly down to the deal they have with BE, which is reportedly similar to the deal Peel have with BE at DSA, and which Peel have chosen not to pursue at MME

All comes down to the money - how much and where from?

N707ZS

16th Jan 2019, 15:22

Luxury aircraft hangar sounds nice!

SWBKCB

16th Jan 2019, 16:40

Luxury aircraft hangar sounds nice!

The guy behind the luxury hangar also said this - now if only MME had such an operator..... :O

"We are also tentatively thinking about medical transportation of organs and are talking to people including doctors and medical professionals who would like to see something here.

Has anybody been able to access the plan yet - website says 5.00pm?

SWBKCB

16th Jan 2019, 17:04

Plan now available:

Acquisition and Operation of Durham Tees Valley Airport (https://www.backbensplan.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/10-YEAR-AIRPORT-PLAN.pdf)

P330

16th Jan 2019, 18:29

Worth a read folks....

A lot of repetition in there but not much detail on how they will succeed. Yes, it is clear what they want to do - but how they are going to attract a charter company or an LCC isn't. The report goes to say the best way to get an LCC is to get one to relocate so that they can dominate the region and not take passengers from their own operation elsewhere. Given that won't be Jet2, it seems they hope to persuade EasyJet to relocate from Newcastle. Ballsy? Or Cloud Cuckoo?

The suggestion is charters may be a slow and steady increase for now, but nothing material on that.

Lots of highly paid consultancy speak in there, the odd glaring factual error, will sound fantastic to Joe Public, but in my opinion this is a long shot and lacking teeth (though full of fluff). That said, I would back this if the alternative is closure in 2021....

SWBKCB

16th Jan 2019, 18:35

Fair summary - some of the commentsd in there are "rather odd" and seem to suggest a lack of understanding of the industry from the consultants (I'm thinking particulalry of the comments on freight and charters :eek:)

highwideandugly

16th Jan 2019, 19:46

Phew! and we all thought Brexit was hard going!

Agree with previous posts...fair review,long and complicated..good sound bites,lots of assumptions and fingers crossed.

LCC...possible..maybe a foreign one(see Brexit)...no cargo from these guys though!
Cobhams..major threat..£2 million income possibly on the line!
Staffing and Infrastucture..big investment will be needed over next 10 years

current and future losses..who is going to cover those?

I still maintain..split use airport is best way.

Some aviation,Some housing,some logistics..is the only way to keep the airport open long term.

Its such an uncertain time in the UK at the moment.The Major has been given a defined pot of money to spend in the general Tees Valley area..can’t help but thinking money would be better spent reviving the whole area as opposed to a massive outlay on a potential vibrant tourist airport?
We have those already and DTV currently does ok with connections via AMS as we are told!

LiamNCL

16th Jan 2019, 21:09

The same easyJet that dont entertain LBA EMA and have only BFS & GVA operated by away based aircraft at BHX ? Non starter im afraid chasing the orange tails.

tigertanaka

18th Jan 2019, 17:12

So the big vote is next Thursday and the mayor needs a unanimous vote for the acquisition to go ahead. The deal is now wrapped up in a wider Tees Valley investment plan which has made Sue Jeffrey rather upset which probably means she will be forced to vote for it. Interesting that the mayor is welcoming the public to attend the vote, a move presumably designed to put a bit more pressure on the five local authority leaders.

Councillor Stephen Harker, Darlington Borough Council - supporting the deal
Councillor Christopher Akers-Belcher, Hartlepool Borough Council - supporting the deal
Mayor David Budd, Middlesbrough - not saying at present
Councillor Sue Jeffrey, Redcar & Cleveland Borough Council - sounds like she might be forced into voting for it
Councillor Bob Cook, Stockton Borough Council - doesn't seem to have commented directly although has asked questions about the ongoing investment requirements
(http://whatsondarlington.co.uk/council-leader-backs-plans-to-save-tees-valley-airport-from-closure/)
http://whatsondarlington.co.uk/council-leader-backs-plans-to-save-tees-valley-airport-from-closure/
https://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/business/hartlepool-council-chief-set-to-back-a-588m-investment-plan-and-durham-tees-valley-airport-takeover-1-9541444
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/dispute-over-disclose-fresh-questions-15696065
https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/17366872.tees-valley-mayors-ambitious-plan-to-buy-dtv-airport-coming-under-scrutiny/
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/40-business-leaders-back-plan-15553238 (https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/17366872.tees-valley-mayors-ambitious-plan-to-buy-dtv-airport-coming-under-scrutiny/)

SWBKCB

18th Jan 2019, 17:49

Yes, the Mayor seems to be doing a rather good job of bouncing his deal through. Not had a chance to look at it in detail but there are some interesting bits in there e.g.

Since 2017, the Combined Authority has been exploring a specific opportunity for a partnership with an experienced airport operator (under Option 8). This arose as a consequence of a productive relationship already developed with TVCA and Stockton Borough Council in another area of the preferred operator’s business.

Hardly a rigorous selection process, is it? Better than "I met a bloke in the golf club", I suppose. :ok:

SWBKCB

20th Jan 2019, 06:48

Interesting comment on the DTVM website:
The airport is currently operating at a loss and is under risk of closure.
The press and politicians have presented the airport as being at risk of closure, the 2021 guarantee to keep the airport open will just fall away like a product warranty. Peel Airports strong statement citing uncertainty after 2021 a few days ago did not directly reference closure and is believed to have been nothing more than an attempt to encourage the sale going through. The general feeling within the business community is that no matter what Peels actions in future, there will always be someone ready to step in and run the airport.

para 22 of the Mayor's plan says:

"In more recent discussions the Combined Authority has been informed by Peel that it has already taken the decision that the Airport will close in or shortly after 2021."

No discussions in the Mayors plan other than closure or public ownership, but there again...

Essentailly the Mayor's plan is similar to the Peel Masterplan but backed by £75m of tax funding (£40m purchase price plus £20m to cover operating losses and £15m for improvements and maintenance), all underwritten by selling the land if it doesn't work.

P330

22nd Jan 2019, 12:46

Looks like everyone is signed up. Vote should be a formality now on Thursday.

A new era beckons....

The heliport idea was also a good story yesterday for the new wind farm.

fjencl

24th Jan 2019, 10:05

Vote has been passed now

SWBKCB

24th Jan 2019, 10:07

So we might see some detail now. For all it's many pages, the Mayor's proposals was remarkably light considering the sums involved.

fjencl

24th Jan 2019, 10:18

https://www.hartlepoolmail.co.uk/news/business/a-588m-investment-plan-has-been-approved-that-will-see-the-takeover-of-durham-tees-valley-airport-1-9554592

P330

24th Jan 2019, 13:47

Wonder if we can now speculate what any new routes and airlines will be?

What will Beafer's new beef be?

if I was to speculate, I would suggest something from Flybe - maybe a Paris? Where else could Flybe take us?

Maybe a few 'w' holiday charters?

I would say nothing material though until at least Summer 2020.

Thoughts?

SWBKCB

24th Jan 2019, 14:28

It's an intersting question - the Mayor's case is all about global connectivity, so Heathrow would be the obvious choice, but...

After that Dublin, for links to the West, and there is (will be) the Stobart connection, but EIR and RYR have both cut back from NCL recently.

Paris? Well KLM are better placed than anybody to know who goes where, but would they be cutting their own throats? (and Paris would see unlikely without an Air France code-share). Any other ideas?

Suppose it depends how big the Mayor's route development pot is (or are we getting back into 'brown envelope' territory!? :ok:)

N707ZS

24th Jan 2019, 15:06

What will Beafer's new beef be? like a dog with it's arse cannot leave it alone.

Maybe a few 'w' holiday charters? hopefully but probably a bit pushed to get everything sorted.

or are we getting back into 'brown envelope' territory!? https://www.pprune.org/images/smilies/thumbs.gif That's a Newcastle thing I presume.

Must be loads of things to sort out as so much is sheared between the two airports, Doncaster has DTVAs large cargo lifter to state one item.

tigertanaka

24th Jan 2019, 16:06

I guess the question is, does Teesside try and copy what NCL and LBA do or try something different? The problem is that it has a smaller, less affluent catchment area with no obvious demographic differences. It is not like there is a huge resident East European population who could be serviced by a Polish based plane that would also do a couple of trips to the med every day before heading back home. Airlines can of course create demand but maybe it is going to rely on subsidies from a foreign airport as well to attract a less obvious route.

Looking at the most popular European destinations that are not covered by either LBA or NCL you have: Milan (both airports), Lisbon, Frankfurt, Bucharest, Munich, Bordeaux, Keflavik, Rome, Stockholm, Valencia and Toulouse. I am not sure that many of these are obvious for MME (although personally Stockholm would be fabulous for me). If we look for more traditional summer sun destinations how about Catania, Gibraltar, Izmir or Mikonos?

If we look at routes where LBA/NCL underperform compared to the national picture then Barcelona, Madrid, Nice, Naples, Budapest, Berlin, Prague, Geneva, Venice and Split are the ones that stand out.

So I would go for:

Domestic: Belfast (plus of course Heathrow longer term)
Bucket & Spade: Palma, Alicante, Mallorca & Dalaman all did well before in terms of passenger numbers. Gibraltar, Izmir.
Winter Sun: Tenerife South or Lanzarote
Cities: Hard one to call, if NCL struggle to make cities work, I am not sure how MME can. DUB is an obvious one but only if FR can be tempted. Maybe BCN is on the up again after all the negative news stories.
Hopefully we will get some clarity on the Brexit impact soon but it is hard to see airlines rushing to start flights against the backdrop of a a weak pound. Ultimately it will depend on how good the mayor & the operator are at wooing the like of TUI, Thomas Cook, Easyjet, Ryanair, Jet2 and Vueling; and how much of a price premium Teessiders are prepared to pay to fly from their local airport. Despite their financial problems on long haul, let's not discount Norwegian who have a large UK business but are not present in the North East.

SealinkBF

24th Jan 2019, 16:36

Bmi Regional back to Heathrow!!! And while I'm dreaming, a pony.

Robert-Ryan

24th Jan 2019, 17:13

I think realistically we're looking at a Stobart Air/Flybe/Virgin Regional ATR/Dash 8 base with a seasonal Embraer operating to the Med, and that's based on the assumption that Stobart are the operators. TUI are reducing not expanding at the moment so I wouldn't count on them. Can't see who else there is?

SWBKCB

24th Jan 2019, 18:29

A doubly good day then! :ok:

Robert-Ryan

24th Jan 2019, 18:40

All those doubters saying that Peel wouldn't sell him the airport.
All those doubters who said Peel just wanted the land, only for them to let the lot go for a fraction of its true value at the first time of asking
Its good to see the back of Peel. I'm glad DTVA didn't turn into another Sheffield Airport debacle.
Nor would it ever have
Signing off for good now Peel are gone. :D :ok:
It truly is a day of giving the people what they want!!

In fact, as noted previously, the Mayor is on record as saying if all else fails he will build all over the airport and no-one batted an eye - why is it perfectly ok for him to do it but not Peel?! Same as he stops public money going to TUI via Peel for a base and then the next day sets up a public money airline incentive fund with no-one questioning why it hasn't yielded results?! Madness.

highwideandugly

24th Jan 2019, 19:01

It’s an expensive business running an airport...A 10 year time frame to make it work?

Dont shout..however the whole area,and it’s my opinion..would have been better served with the airport remaining open...with connectivity to Amsterdam,Aberdeen and yes..maybe London.Limited housing and other developments.
The financial pot available being shared out for desperately needed infrastructure,road and rail improvements?

To me it’s schedules ,for the future of the area that are important..not a weekly Palma,Alicante etc. Those schedules are not obvious?

Heard Newcastle, who do quite well for those types of flights have just lost a potential Munich due Brexit...that factor will also affect Teesside Airport...interesting times.

Finally,cheers Beafer..enjoy your retirement...bet you will be back though!

mmeman

24th Jan 2019, 20:13

My prediction, so probably totally wrong, is a CAX-MME-SEN and then SEN-MME-CAX-BHD type of route, which is why the Carlisle routes have not been put on sale yet, waiting for this to be agreed. And also a few IT routes in 2020.

Gunfighter52

24th Jan 2019, 20:53

Will be interesting to see how the Burgas route performs this summer. Hopefully it does well enough for them to stick around.

Jamesair

25th Jan 2019, 08:21

The December stats from CAA show that the Amsterdam route was 8604 up 6% and Aberdeen 1133 down 52%

SWBKCB

26th Jan 2019, 12:38

Shall we just note this story for posterity?

Mrs Jones, who is a Conservative councillor, said people in Middleton St George wanted to see the airport succeed."We want the airport," she said. "This plan is going to create jobs and it is going to provide us with a proper airport again and help businesses in the area.

Village 'welcomes airport plan': Middleton St George councillor (https://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/darlington/17372287.village-welcomes-airport-plan-middleton-st-george-councillor/)

SealinkBF

26th Jan 2019, 13:31

So Labour sold the airport to a private operator, and the Tories bought it back into public ownership? Politics is confusing these days.

SWBKCB

26th Jan 2019, 14:18

And the Tory councillor who has been a thorn in the side for years is now all for it - who'd have thought? :eek:

N707ZS

26th Jan 2019, 18:26

SealinkBF (left=https://www.pprune.org/members/325840-sealinkbf) a local Torie councillor and NIMBYs scuppered every plan to develop the place in the 80s and 90s, cargo flights, training flights early holiday flights and a multi million pound development for cargo and aircraft maintenance, sparrows couldn't even fart before the phone was ringing. Thus the Labour councils slowly sold it to Peel, who also sold it to a Canadian company and took it back before on paper accepting a Tory mayors plan, who has said if it doesn't work he can build on the site.

toledoashley

27th Jan 2019, 09:01

Forgive me for not knowing - What was the network bmi baby had?

N707ZS

27th Jan 2019, 10:08

Bmi baby, two based aircraft, at least Alicante, Majorca, Paris, Newquay and perhaps a Gatwick and Malaga. Was going to be increased to possibly up to five aircraft but things happened.

SWBKCB

27th Jan 2019, 11:16

Bmi baby, two based aircraft, at least Alicante, Majorca, Paris, Newquay and perhaps a Gatwick and Malaga. Was going to be increased to possibly up to five aircraft but things happened.

Yep - Baby decided they could make more money at Cardiff.

tigertanaka

27th Jan 2019, 11:59

bmibaby ran Belfast and Malaga in 2003 (not sure when they started). They hugely expanded their operation in 2004 by adding Prague, Jersey, Nice, Alicante and Palma.

This was the bmibaby 2004 summer schedule:

Malaga - Tuesday, Thursday, Saturday, Sunday
Prague - Tuesday, Sunday
Jersey - Saturday
Nice - Saturday
Alicante - Monday, Wednesday, Friday
Palma - Monday, Wednesday, Friday
Belfast International - Daily

Gatwick started on 30 October 2005. When they pulled the plug in September 2006, the routes were:

Cork
London Gatwick
Paris Charles de Gaulle
Alicante
Malaga
Palma

At the time, Heathrow was run by BMI mainline.

N707ZS

27th Jan 2019, 12:11

How does Bmi Baby compare to Flyglobespan.

Robert-Ryan

27th Jan 2019, 13:57

Yep - Baby decided they could make more money at Cardiff.
and Birmingham

If memory serves bmibaby promised two based aircraft right from the off and then only delivered two w patterns to start with. Globespan differed in that they were exclusively bucket and spade, no city breaks etc

highwideandugly

27th Jan 2019, 14:28

So guys..when do we expect some firm(ish) news to be announced?

What are the time frames..if any?

If it is to be Stobarts..wonder if they will be more proactive than their Carlisle operations!!?

SWBKCB

27th Jan 2019, 14:41

Purchase completed by end of March, new operator to be announced before then followed by a transition period as Peel withdraw.

Stobart seem to be 'busy' on a number of fronts - be interesting to see what their capacity is for dealing with MME

Gunfighter52

29th Jan 2019, 22:22

A total of 139549 passengers passed through the terminal in 2018, a 9% increase over 2017. This is the first increase since 2006. However, Amsterdam has seemingly reached it's maximum potential, Aberdeen is declining again and Jersey has remained stagnant (future dependent on Flybe's own future) , so it's over to BH Air to provide the growth in 2019.

N707ZS

1st Feb 2019, 11:53

Gunfighter52 That's a bit depressing, Amsterdam presume it could grow if promoted, perhaps up to an ERJ 190. Jersey seems to be almost fully booked so again with that could a larger aircraft be utilised on the route. As to new routes over to the Tees Valley Major or should that be Teesside Major!

tigertanaka

1st Feb 2019, 15:01

AMS did really well in 2018 - up 13% to 110,784 - the best since 2008. Over 10,000 pax used the route in both September and October, the first time the has occurred since October 2010. This of course was helped by KLM using running larger planes and potentially prices were adjusted slightly in order to fill the planes. However KLM's fares from MME are still much higher than from NCL which does point to customers (I guess business pax in the main) being prepared to pay extra for the convenience. Not sure we will be getting any larger planes anytime soon as the load factor is probably only about 75% in the best months (although the 6:00am flight is usually rammed in my experience). A target may be the NWI arrangement, they have about 140,000 pax a year on the AMS route, this also has the E175 but mainly on 4 weekday rotations. Teesside-Amsterdam did 120,000+ pax a year annually from 2003-2007.

I agree JER appears to be at capacity so it is either another rotation (hard to fill) or a bigger plane.

The uplift in passengers on the ABZ route during the period of the Loganair venture points to there being a clear demand but having seen off their competitor, Eastern now appear to be more focused on yields rather than passenger numbers.

Of course the mayor has been trying to manage expectations but when the acquisition is closed, the pressure will be in for him to deliver some new routes.