Durham Tees Valley-7

[CaptainDoony]

Speaking of costs, CAA stats show an average of 5 pax per flight using the Norwich route.

I know it's a tag-on to the ABZ flight, but how is it economical to have (I assume) full security and handling in place for so few people? It's not even as though there are other flights anywhere near the same time to spread the cost.

Someone from Loganair must have read your post? NWI tag on dropped eff 05/01/18.

ABZ continues

[No-More-Bullschit]

That's madness, not even the harshest of airlines would chop a route that fast, shame on them for not allowing time for growth

[EGPO]

EGPO: there would have to be a Letter of Agreement between the air amb and DTVA ATC that specifies what prior communication has to be made before a helicopter can take off. I imagine the air amb ops staff would have a direct line to ATC and as soon as they get a call-out they would hit that button at the same time as the helicopter crew were being given the incident details.
There might be scope - if the helipad location, orientation and surrounding obstacles allow - for some sort of emergency provision that, in the event of inability to contact ATC in time, permits the heli to get airborne on a specified south-easterly heading, perhaps with a height restriction, without clearance. But there won't be any arrangement that contains the remotest possibility that a heli might appear right next to the final approach in front of traffic on a c.1.5nm final (descending through about 500ft).


Many thanks for the reply, that wascvery informative.
And kind of what I was asking .
So you have answered my question :) .
Merry Christmas to you and all.
Regards
Egpo

[SWBKCB]

That's madness, not even the harshest of airlines would chop a route that fast, shame on them for not allowing time for growth

or well done to LM for giving it a go and then being flexible enough to recognize that something isn't working and getting out quick before any damage is done . :ok:

Always easy to spend somebody else's money...

[N707ZS]

Is there an official press release or note on a web site anywhere? From Loganair.

[SWBKCB]

Unlikely to advertise bad news, but not bookable through their website after 05/01.

[N707ZS]

Thanks Beafer, is this your new years resolution, useful information!!
We thought you had been arrested for torching the caravans :rolleyes:

[Mike Flynn]

Norwich to Durham was always going to be a strange route. Nowhere to nowhere springs to mind.
Five passengers a day.

“Unfortunately, the Norwich – Durham route wasn’t performing in line with expectations with no signs of improving so we’ve taken the decision to withdraw the service from January 7th”
https://www.loganair.co.uk/loganair-boosts-aberdeen-service-durham-tees-valley-airport/?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=december+2017

[highwideandugly]

History..tells us it wouldn’t work.

The next question is who goes first on the ABZ route?? Because someone will...and we will be back to square one..

[mmeteesside]

I really thought the amount of people working offshore from Norwich would have translated into better figures. You don't know until you try, but I guess forward bookings didn't show an upward trend.

[onion]

History..tells us it wouldn’t work.

The next question is who goes first on the ABZ route?? Because someone will...and we will be back to square one..

Really Nwi MME worked in the past for years!

[AirportPlanner1]

The flight will still operate, it just won't pick up passengers. I think they would continue to offer it if there were other flights anywhere near the departure time. I stick by my point of earlier in the week, it can't have been economical to open up departures for those handful of people.

[JollyTraveller]

The flight will still operate, it just won't pick up passengers. I think they would continue to offer it if there were other flights anywhere near the departure time. I stick by my point of earlier in the week, it can't have been economical to open up departures for those handful of people.


The flight isn't going to be operating. The flights you book on Loganair website for the Aberdeen to Norwich are BMI regional flights.


It is very good news to hear Loganair are very pleased with how things are going on the DTVA - Aberdeen route.

[Robert-Ryan]

The next question is who goes first on the ABZ route?? Because someone will...and we will be back to square one..
Not anytime soon with both enjoying good loads. Norwich should have been given more time, at the very least they should have seen the summer out, better yet a full year so they could compare like-for-like figures

[oldart]

I thought Loganair could have utilized the spare couple of hours by flying to either Dublin or Belfast. I suspect the downturn in the oil industry would have affected the Norwich route. Any prize for the next route they will operate!

[canberra97]

Or

Any prize for the next route they will cease to operate!

[EGPO]

Rumour has it Dublin may be on the cards, not sure if they'd be able to swing
Am interline agreement with Aerlingus.
It was a bit in a local Conaught newspaper , though most comments said they felt the story was wrong and that Belfast was most likely.
But they are said to be firmly committed to extra routes , I'm not sure the range on their Aircraft but would Stavanger fare any better than Norwich ?

[canberra97]

The down turn in the oil industry has obviously affected such routes as DTV to Norwich with minimal loads so I can't see a link to Stavanger fairing any better during the down turn and I would have thought that if there was sufficient demand an airline would have resumed a link from Newcastle by now.

Companies say that they are 'fully committed' all the time it's just PR most of the time unless any written agreement is signed it means sod all, look at how many airports that have had airlines saying that and before you know it they are history.

I wouldn't hold my breath regarding Loganair having a long term relationship with DTV, I'm not knocking the airport in anyway but that's how I personally see it.

The limited amount of Guernsey flights could always remain at DTV considering that they are aligned with a travel company so seat sales more or less will be taken up especially considering the amount of flights available.

[GrahamK]

Canberra, bmi fly Newcastle-Stavanger 6 x weekly

[canberra97]

Graham it wasn't until I sent it that I immediately realised that BMI do fly from Newcastle to Stavanger but fair play to you for being quick off the mark

I won't change my post though to correct it I'll leave it to you for being so quick to remind me.

[SWBKCB]

EGPO - interesting that flights from DTVA are being discussed in the Connaught press - can you provide a link?

Canberra97 - which company is involved - no reference in the licence application?

[canberra97]

Well my mistake then but I thought I had read somewhere regarding a travel company backing the Guernsey flights, it's not Superbreak but again I could have mistaken it but if I do find it I will post a link.

[highwideandugly]

DTV railway station loosing a platform..surely a housing development would be attracted to a railway connection..short sighted?

[SWBKCB]

The masterplan has an aspiration to move the station nearer to the approach road (and the housing)

[JollyTraveller]

I think it is time the LAs got on with the plans for the new train station and the park & ride system next to roundabouts on airport approach road.


If that happens it will mean the freight sidings can be added to airport site next current location of the pointless railway halt. All covered in the DTVA masterplan documents. http://www.durhamteesvalleyairport.com/uploads/documents/DTVA_Masterplan.pdf

[SWBKCB]

The airport itself is nowhere near the position where it could justify a train station - if the LA's feel that the housing development (plus those nearby) warranted a train station, it should have been made a condition of the planning permission.

[JollyTraveller]

The plan wasn't for station to be at the airport. The plan was for a park & ride system for the Tees Valley area with train station next to it. That site was chosen because it has good road access and is next railway line that gives access to the local town centres and business parks. It is a bonus that it will give better transport links to airport but it would still require a bus between the park & ride / train station and the airport terminal building.

[JollyTraveller]

Work on the Premium Lounge should be completed by spring 2018. Premium Lounge (http://www.durhamteesvalleyairport.com/premium/)

[SWBKCB]

The maintenance and remedial costs of maintaining the current infrastructure are estimated as high as £6m over the next five years – expenditure which is not in line with our business goals. We are not currently pursuing full closure of the station which would require support from both regional stakeholders and the relevant rail authorities.



I know we can't expect anymore from them, but you would have thought at least one of the two leading regional newspapers would have challenged this statement. Why so much? How much does keeping the remaining side open cost? What's stopping you closing the whole lot?

[Plane.Silly]

Saving £6m by 2022. Exactly HOW does one platform and footbridge cost £1.2m-£1.5m to maintain? I admire the need to cost cut, but that'd be like me saying "i'm gonna save £1m by not drinking and selling a kidney"

[Hipennine]

Presumably, the platform is on railway land, and therefore owned and operated by Network Rail. Therefore why will it save DTVA £6m?
Perhaps the former airport owners entered into some long term liability agreement with BR to get the station opened in the first place?

[JollyTraveller]

I'm guessing that Network Rail aren't willing to cover the full cost of replacing the old bridge and platform when so few passengers use the station / halt.

[inOban]

No. For historical reasons the cost would fall on the airport. Peel group still state that their long-term plans involve relocating the station to somewhere more accessible for the airport. The process of actually closing a station are lengthy and it is cheaper to continue a so-called parliamentary service.

[mmeman]

Looks like some 'not great' news for the new year - Trying to book flights next year and Amsterdam down to 2 daily Mon-Fri in July and August next year and 1 flight from Amsterdam on a Saturday (mid morning flight) and 1 flight to Amsterdam on a Sunday (mid morning flight).. afternoon flight not bookable Mon-Fri.. maybe just a glitch..

I think Newcastle was 5 last summer and is just 4 flights a day next summer..

[Richard Taylor]

Is that not just peak summer holiday cutbacks, when many people in business are away on holidays, therefore less demand for such flights? Happens at other airports too.

[SWBKCB]

Looks like a reduction from last summer - there was a n/s, mid morning and mid afternoon on weekdays in August 2017

[Robert-Ryan]

AMS is having major slot issues at the moment, they've already sacked off a lot of cargo and have just had to deal with AirBridgeCargo threatening to pull out and Russia banning all Dutch aircraft, perhaps these cutbacks are part of their solution?

[N707ZS]

The original Southside at DTVA was supposedly for Amsterdam cargo, now that would be a better solution.

[P330]

This has happened at other airports but I have never seen KLM go to 2 a day on week days before. We've always lost a couple of rotations on weekends, but that is it. Yes, the quietest time for business travel but no getting away from it, this is bad news!

[highwideandugly]

As always..over the last few years comendable optimism over the airport.
Us miserable beggars have always kept the rose coloured glasses off.

However. We all face an uncertain time,Brexit,Oil prices.et al. and probably more uncertain issues which non of us are aware of?

To me,People will always want a holiday to get away from all of these. ,,out of our control issues...so again...why oh why why Have PEEL decided that DTV. Don’t need a regular holiday flight(s) and the regular income it supports?

[JollyTraveller]

Page 159 show a good overview of the planned Southside development layout and the fencing. Page 153 onwards have some details on types of fencing for the different zones. I wouldn't worry about these kind things to much, Peel have been involved in the ownership of airports since the 1990's and are one of the most diverse companies in the UK with proven track record on delivering on huge projects.
Everything that needs to happen at Durham Tees Valley Airport has already been done at Liverpool airport and Doncaster Sheffield airport. http://www.durhamteesvalleyairport.com/uploads/documents/DTVA_Masterplan.pdf

[Harry Wayfarers]

And at Sheffield City Airport Peel did what?

[JollyTraveller]

That was all part of the plan for the development of an airport for Doncaster Sheffield area. Sheffield City Airport had already failed as an airport long before Peel where giving it as sweetener for delivering the area airport that is capable off taking larger planes etc. Peel don't like to waste money, Sheffield City Airport was closed A.S.A.P once they got involved.

[Robert-Ryan]

Whether or not he's got the reasoning correct I'm not sure but Peel building a proper airport does firmly counteract any conspiracy about closing a limited facility

[highwideandugly]

Never sure if these questions require answers or not..too political for me..

However I am more concerned about routes,staffing and developments to the master plan.
So far this year,not good...KLM et al,still ATC shortages and probably AFS too? And I wonder when the cash will start to flow into the airport from the housing...do PEEL. Get paid up front? Surely they must get something?

[fjencl]

Does eastern airways still have a based aircraft here. If so what type is it and what's it flying daily program.

[JollyTraveller]

No Flybe / Eastern Airways aircraft is currently based at DTVA. Flights are currently being operated from Humberside to Aberdeen via Durham Tees Valley. The aircraft mostly used is the Saab 2000 but the BAe Jetstream 41 is also part schedule but often gets upgraded for Saab 2000.

Flybe / Eastern Airways timetable is currently showing direct flights returning to the Aberdeen - Humberside route from 12th February 2018.

It also shows a based BAe Jetstream 41 operating from Durham Tees Valley Airport for the Aberdeen route with reduced flights: 3 x Flights Thur, 2 x flights M/T/W/F, 1 x flights Sun, (Sunday will continue to operate via Durham Tees Valley using the Aberdeen - Humberside Saab 2000)

What is interesting is it shows the aircraft arriving back at Durham Tees Valley at 09:25 on Mondays and Wednesdays but no flight until 17:00 Mondays and 17:15 Wednesdays, It's also showing as arriving back on Fridays at 19:45 which means it's based at Durham Tees Valley over the weekend. That mean the Durham Tees Valley Flybe / Eastern Airways crew base will have lot of down time.

Hopefully Flybe / Eastern Airways are planning to add something new to fill up the gaps in they Durham Tees Valley crew base time.

[fjencl]

Cheers for that , very informative.

[No-More-Bullschit]

I'm sure the company could answer, I don't think they're on here though

[SWBKCB]

Council leaders step down from board of Durham Tees Valley Airport - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/council-leaders-step-down-board-14109900)

[Lancelot37]

Allegedly a conflict of interest, new Councillors appointed in their place.
Who knows something that we don't know?

[Robert-Ryan]

Forgive me if it's obvious but what would amount to a conflict of interest

[SWBKCB]

Being a member of the Mayors Tees Valley cabinet and on the board of the airport company while the Mayor has pledged to buy it.

[Robert-Ryan]

So have they left of their own accord or have DTVA instigated this? And perhaps more worryingly is this an indication the mayor might be having some success?

[SWBKCB]

November CAA stats - no AMS figures.

Still early days.

ABERDEEN 1,470 1,590 -7.55

[highwideandugly]

Yep still early days but as forecast,but probably a little surprising still ,are these ABZ figures.I had heard loads were appaling but 14 flights a day means only one thing..something or someone has got to give.

[Robert-Ryan]

Aberdeen is not doing appalling, it is doing very well, I don't trust those figures

[highwideandugly]

CAA stats are often dodgy and why no Amsterdam figures..surely the airports reporting send all figures and don’t pick and choose which routes they supply ?

[highwideandugly]

Re Beafers entry,Concerning the pay back due this year of £15 million...where is that dosh going to come from? Hope it’s not from the sale of the airport land for housing..remember PEELS. Statement to plough everything back into the airport..does that count?.

[AndrewH52]

The company would never have 'paid' the pensions of former employees - that is what the pension scheme is for. Given the scheme was closed to new employees and according to the accounts any necessary company contributions have been made, there seems little point in Peel remaining in the scheme?

[SWBKCB]

Some interesting remarks throughout the latest accounts such as page 14, section 1.9 ?


There isn't a section 1.9 on page 14?

Note the bit about their land bank!

What about it??

Re Beafers entry,Concerning the pay back due this year of £15 million...where is that dosh going to come from?

That isn't what the accounts say.

The latest accounts reveal that payments are being made to other Peel companies.


Depends what you mean by "reveal" - it's in there every year.... :eek:

Maybe the council leaders started to look at the figures and decided to jump ship

or maybe the public statement that's been made is true? :ok:

[LTNman]

Seems rather outrageous regarding Peel and the Teeside workers pensions when no doubt the directors of Peel will have made sure that their own pension pots will be lined in gold.

Peel seem to be masters of blackmail and call all the shots. They went into the airport with their eyes open, made a mess of it and now expect everyone else to pay for there incompetence.

[highwideandugly]

SWBKCB. Page 22 item 9. Creditors...amounts falling due within one year. 15.8 million....that was the figure I noticed,maybe I’m reading it wrong?

[N707ZS]

Page 2 is more interesting to me.

[NorthSouth]

Peel seem to be masters of blackmail and call all the shots. They went into the airport with their eyes open, made a mess of it and now expect everyone else to pay for there incompetence.Or, they went in with their eyes wide open, and are continuing to pursue the strategy that they cooked up right at the start.

[SWBKCB]

SWBKCB. Page 22 item 9. Creditors...amounts falling due within one year. 15.8 million....that was the figure I noticed,maybe I’m reading it wrong?

Yes - it doesn't actually mean it all has to be repaid within the year.

Peel have been making payments to other parts of the Peel group for years so nothing to see here e.g. air traffic control is done by another part of the company not DTVA

[highwideandugly]

Who runs ATC ?

[SWBKCB]

I understand it is these guys - Air Traffic Control Services Ltd, Peel Dome Intu Trafford Centre, Traffordcity, Manchester, United Kingdom, M17 8PL

[JollyTraveller]

Durham Tees Valley Airport has local based ATC but uses the services of air traffic control services Limited. Most other UK airports have local based ATC and use the services of NATS Holdings.

Air Traffic Control Services Limited mostly work out Liverpool Airport ATC tower.

[JollyTraveller]

From looking at accounts it shouldn't take to much to make the airport business profitable.

Hopefully development of the land not currently used by the airport business will give airport business the cash windfall it needs.

The LAs still own 11% so not all the costs need to be covered by Peel Group. If the LAs do invest in more shares in airport business it will surely help the airport business develop the wider business. Peel Group and LAs can fund the growth of the airport business. Once all the land is fully developed the airport business should be a self-sustaining business.

[JollyTraveller]

The company would never have 'paid' the pensions of former employees - that is what the pension scheme is for. Given the scheme was closed to new employees and according to the accounts any necessary company contributions have been made, there seems little point in Peel remaining in the scheme?

If there is a shortfall in the company pension scheme it needs to be covered.

[JollyTraveller]

Defined benefit pension schemes

Your employer is responsible for making sure there’s enough money in a defined benefit pension (https://www.gov.uk/pension-types) to pay each member the promised amount.


https://www.gov.uk/workplace-pensions/protection-for-your-pension

[tigertanaka]

Maybe Beefer needs to take a part time finance course before next years results are published at Companies House?

[highwideandugly]

Hoped with the departure of the Fokkers and the intro.of the new aircraft KLM would settle down,but looking at the movements so far this year there have been quite a few non ops?
Maybe the reduction to 2 a day is being phased gradually now!

The ABZ schedules also seem to be suffering in the same way..looks like those figures on the CAA website were right?

[Robert-Ryan]

Since my previous post on the subject I've heard KLM are having crewing issues, either way it's not anything at DTVAs end

DTVA haven't submitted any figures yet, a note says so on the CAA website

[JollyTraveller]

Please see this post I have linked for some information on changes to Flybe/Eastern Airways operations from Durham Tees Valley Airport. https://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/599813-durham-tees-valley-7-a-17.html#post10009159

From the public comments made by the management of KLM cityhopper and Loganair it seems like they happy with Durham Tees Valley airport operations. I have not seen or heard anything publicly from Flybe/Eastern Airways management but it seems like they plan to continue at Durham Tees Valley Airport from looking at the planned changes to the schedule.

It seems like a lot cancelled flights are due to weather and crewing issues and it's affecting all airports not just Durham Tees Valley Airport.

[Flightrider]

I suspect the CAA November stats for ABZ at least will be misleading. The reports are listed in alphabetical order of departing airport so ABZ reports the figures for pretty much all routes from there. Where the aircraft is on a multi-leg service, the numbers are lumped together - so all ABZ-MME-NWI or ABZ-MME-HUY pax would be reported as ABZ-NWI or ABZ-HUY even if they got off the aircraft at MME and it continued without them to NWI or HUY. With both operators flying legs beyond MME in November, the figures will not give a true reflection of the ABZ-MME market itself. Looking at the growth in pax on HUY and NWI, I'd guess many of those could well be MME pax.

[highwideandugly]

Anyone know how many snow ploughs etc.available ? Can’t believe it’s taken so long to clear the runway and apron etc.

We were talking about cancellations earlier and while the majority under stand weather problems and effects on operations...it still doesn’t instill much confidence in flying from here when so many flights seem to be cancelled for whatever reason...it’s a fragile time.

[SWBKCB]

Issues at AMS today due to weather

Amsterdam airport cancels all flights due to severe storms | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/amsterdam-airport-flights-cancelled-latest-updates-weather-schiphol-storms-klm-netherlands-a8165516.html)

[highwideandugly]

Notice Newcastle had Amsterdam cancellations also..must Be a lot of NE folk stuck over there at mo. And others of course!,

[oldart]

highwideandugly

I believe there was a heavier fall of snow over Teesside and then it froze. Regarding ice clearance, better to be safe than sorry!

[Robert-Ryan]

The airport increased their snow clearing equipment a couple of years ago and I think a couple more bits might have transferred up from Doncaster just prior to this winter

[N707ZS]

Restriction is for aircraft related industry, so if they wanted to open a car factory or science park they cannot under the current plans.

[LTNman]

Selling the family’s jewels comes to mind. It is much easier to sell off parts of their airport landbank for an instant profit than have the tedious task of running an airport badly for a small return if the times were good and for a loss when the airport is struggling.

Peel Group state in their first sentence that they own 15,000 hectares of land because they are basically a land and real estate company. They go on to say that their substantial land holdings offers a wealth of opportunities.

Flicking through their website reveals a small section on aviation where a paragraph each is devoted to Liverpool and Robin Hood Airports and nothing about Teeside.

Look at a company like MAG or Aena who are focused on running a portfolio of airports and their airports are all listed with a description of each because that is what they focus on.

[JollyTraveller]

Stockton On Tees
Publication Draft Local Plan
Regulation 19 Consultation – September 2017


https://www.stockton.gov.uk/media/875716/1-local-plan.pdf

[SWBKCB]

Interesting link - thanks. It's clear from the plan that permission for development on the site is linked to the international connectivity the airport brings (somebody should send KLM a copy!).

Also, if the report about Peel seeking to remove the Airport related use for 50ha on the southside is correct, that will mean the entire southside will be available for general use (who'd have thought!)

[No-More-Bullschit]

Decent pax figures again for November, comments on the movements site make for interesting reading

[SWBKCB]

Am I being dense- ABZ 1,470, AMS 8,318, NWI 235 Total 13,341 - what's the 3,500 difference?

[highwideandugly]

I think transit passengers are muddying the waters..not sure if they technically should be added to airport passenger figures as they don’t always use the facilities,or do they get off and on again?
Those ABZ figures are definitely dodg6 somewhere.
AMS great increase but as mentioned a lot of cancellations over the last few weeks and the network wide reductions will not help any airport to increase the figures?

[mmeman]

Yes seems quite confusing.. sometimes you wish the airport might blow its' own trumpet about passenger figures, if they are good! :p

From what I can see using Terminal and Transit passengers pdf from CAA website there were 11841 terminal passengers and 1299 transit passengers, which equals the 13140.

So if we use the 11841, and minus the other routes figures (including the HUY,LBA etc figures) this leaves 3045 to go to Aberdeen, which is around double last year. In Loganair's press release they said they were carrying 66%, so 2000 with Loganair and 1000 with Eastern/Flybe.

[SWBKCB]

Thanks, makes sense.

So if the 66/33 split is right, compared to last year LM have nicked 500 from EZE and 1,500 new pax?

[Robert-Ryan]

As mentioned previously Eastern have been boosted by Loganairs arrival, no way have they had 500 nicked, unless that's in comparison to their heyday?

[SWBKCB]

ABZ seems to run at about 1300-1500 per month, last month 3000. If LM are right in saying they've got 66%, Eastern can't have increased - monthly ABZ would have to bhave been under 1000 for them both to have gone up.

Something is wrong somewhere.

[Robert-Ryan]

Eastern have gone from single figure pax per flight to double figures, more often than not anyway

[mmeman]

December passenger figures now on CAA website - looks like 2415 passengers to Aberdeen, up from 1180 last year, Amsterdam up 2% both Santa flights full, and 224 to Norwich, which I think works out at around 6 pax per flight!

[highwideandugly]

So just failed to beat last years desperate figures..2.6% down on the year giving total of 128000.

I suppose at least in a full year the slide has been arrested at long last!

A few positives on the horizon,Let’s see what the New Year brings with extra charter flights,
However a reduction to come on the KLM figures and the bun fight that is Aberdeen to play its course!

Not needed are Volcanoes!,

One interesting point..it seems movements were down..can’t understand that?

[N707ZS]

All quiet at the moment only development is some sort of car show room on the North landside. Land that we thought had been cleared for the new road. Amazed a certain person missed the planning application.

Air side PTT has taken over the old police hangar turning it into offices and space for three planes.

[Robert-Ryan]

So just failed to beat last years desperate figures..2.6% down on the year giving total of 128000.

I suppose at least in a full year the slide has been arrested at long last!

A few positives on the horizon,Let’s see what the New Year brings with extra charter flights,
However a reduction to come on the KLM figures and the bun fight that is Aberdeen to play its course!

Not needed are Volcanoes!,

One interesting point..it seems movements were down..can’t understand that?
Movements website showing 132k same as year before? Movements are probably down because of the mismanagement of PTT, GW microlights closing down, and a minor reduction in resident tins, no more 8-deep queues for departure!

[highwideandugly]

Good point..thing GA suffering everywhere..it’s just too. Expensive!

The Excellent DTV site is showing transit passengers as well..don’t think these should be counted as don’t use facilities..or I may be wrong!
Dubai figures could be dodgy as 75% ( that’s my guess)of their passengers are transit..it’s an interesting conundrum?
CAA definitely showing 128k..

[SWBKCB]

aren't the majority at DXB transfer pax (get of the plane and get on another one - so do use the facilities) as opposed to transit pax (plane lands, pax doesn't get off and then flies on to destination)

[Robert-Ryan]

The movements website notes they may be looking at the wrong table, so looking for myself 128k does seem correct. Despite this I'm told we were the second fastest growing UK airport after Southend, which is probably a vanity statistic!

[highwideandugly]

Just wait until Carlisle stats come through...everyone will be related to the Northern League!!

[jetstar.8]

so we had more passengers in 1971 (136k) than we had in 2017 :ugh:

[N707ZS]

At least there are some passengers only recently the knockers on here were forecasting closure by now.

[jetstar.8]

just taking a bit longer than predicted :=

[Robert-Ryan]

Yeah that's why they're spending millions on a new radar, security scanners and RNAV approaches :rolleyes:

[jetstar.8]

all the fixtures and fittings can be sold when the airport is closed
is it not aircraft and airlines that bring in and out passengers :D

[SWBKCB]

RNAV approaches? Do tell!

[Robert-Ryan]

all the fixtures and fittings can be sold when the airport is closed
Get real if your intent is to close the place you don't spend millions upgrading it first you just be done with it and save yourself the money!

SWBKCB don't know much other than all the big airports are adopting these fancical new procedures and atc have told me we are as well, think you just press a button in the cockpit and the plane practically lands itself, better for noise abatement too I think? I've also heard rumblings they're at the very start of thinking about resurfacing the runway - far from being greenlit but it's been discussed and acknowledged it needs doing I think, don't hold me to it

[Wycombe]

Get real if your intent is to close the place you don't spend millions upgrading it first

Ask anyone that has served in the RAF in the last 30 years about that, and I'm sure they will confirm it happens! Even worse in those cases, as it's public money.

[Robert-Ryan]

Nothing more than conspiracy theorists always having an answer to everything. Look at what they've spent, look at what they are set to spend, look at what they're doing to improve their PR...they could easily have closed the place at its lowest ebb...why build it back up again?! Doesn't make sense unless they plan on making a go of it

[jetstar.8]

don`t the passenger figures speak for themselves
More passengers in 1971 than 2017

[Robert-Ryan]

A year ago, when we only had two airlines one of whom was struggling, when the terminal was a ghost town with less facilities and out of date decor, when morale was even lower...need I go on?

[jetstar.8]

we had 132k passengers in 2016 and after the terminal improvments we lost
4k in 2017 to 128k what will 2018 bring 124k ?:ugh:

[Bishop01]

I'm sorry but I've got to come on here and put a few things to Mr Robert Ryan, cautious optimist, DTVAirport or what ever username he wants to use today,..
The reason why the second airline was struggling was the outrageous fares they were charging.. I've been screaming for years now at the useless management at DTV to get some other airline in to give them some competition... "and guess what".. more passengers start to use the route not only on the new airline (Loganair) but also on the so called airline that should have a cape and mask in their colour scheme! but what's makes it ironic is they dropped their fares to suit soon as Loganair started.. I personally know a lot of people who work in the offshore industry and they say that Loganair has saved their trip up on the train to Aberdeen as they wouldn't pay Cape and Mask airways fares... :ugh:

Secondly... you're now saying the terminal was a ghost town? again, I've been commenting on this for years 'which even you pulled me on the subject'.. I think you'll find the pax are still down.. 'just' yes but we've all been saying when's the numbers going to bottom out, and next year doesn't look too good for it either when KLM start to reduce the daily flights is in the summer months... granted a few more airports have the same issue but we cant afford to loose any more flights. 'still'... peel spent a few quid in Ikea of late to make the terminal more attractive to the passengers which they paid for through the £6 fee, and lets not forget some of the painting was done from the slaves of FoDTV...(more money saved) anyway.. so 132K, 1971 pax numbers this year at £6 a pop, wonder where the rest of the money has gone... maybe for a new Kettle for the ATC breaks, which is another issue which I've mentioned on here.. 18 months now this has been going on for, with some breaks being an hour long. Id love to know who they are training up?

and lastly Jestar8.. your rite.. things can be sold on, also they can be leased in and sent back.. but don't upset the peel lovers on here their funny bunch with all their speculation...:yuk: makes me laugh.

[SWBKCB]

"and guess what".. more passengers start to use the route not only on the new airline (Loganair) but also on the so called airline that should have a cape and mask in their colour scheme!

I don't suppose anybody knows the actual split, but the numbers don't support LM carrying more that EZE, but EZE also going up (or how much either is actually making).

Any news on the LM crew base?

[highwideandugly]

Could I point out for clarity..that the 128k passengers for the year is both ways..the actual departure figures are I guess half..so only 64k use the airport to fly off.My maths says that’s only a little over 5k per month..not too rosy methinks.

I think we are all waiting for genuine positive developments from PEEL..just when is the housing going to start and just when is the real and positive financial flow of said cash going to flow inwards?

[jetstar.8]

looking at the minutes of the Middleton st George parish council meeting 18 December 2017
Quote
"Peel will carry out Infrastructure work (utilities) summer (july)2018 to Easter 2019 there would be no house builders on site till easter 2020 wich would be overseen by Peel"

[jetstar.8]

No KLM 1539 Tonight and no KLM1530 in the morning
ATC can have a lie in :rolleyes:

[mmeman]

I think I have to come in here and and he may not thank me for doing this but Robert-Ryan is probably the only one on here that posts anything close to facts or rumours at the airport rather than unsubstantiated speculation as it appears he actually works at the airport, and my impression is that he does not always support Peel.

Of course the airport is not currently at its' lowest ebb - Loganair only started operating in October last year, so won't have a massive impact on passenger figures for last year, and also there are the new Superbreak flights for this year.

[jetstar.8]

Superbreak flights just make up for the loss of the Newmarket breaks
if the airport is not at it`s lowest ebb does that mean it`s still has not reached it`s lowest ebb :rolleyes:

[Cautious Optimist]

Bishop, I've sent you a PM, but for the benefit of other users yes Eastern's fares were a huge problem you are absolutely right, but people paid them happily for well over 10 years, it was reliability that was the issue and Loganair know it, as they've recently advertised "Loganair had 4x LESS cancellations than our competitor for flights between Durham Tees Valley and Aberdeen."

As for FoDTVA, no slavery as we would not be able to retain a membership if it was as people would leave en mass. The painting you mention was our own idea, it was unfortunate you caught me on my todd that day as there were normally three of us.

Right, back to the pprune retirement home for me...

[highwideandugly]

I see Superbreaks are now operating out of Newcastle..an Iceland flight held up due weather..surprise!,

Not only loss of Newmarket but Loss of Omega Holidays also who have operated at least 2/3 or 4 specific charters per year for 5ge last 3 years?
So yes..if they all sell and prices are pretty high ,they will probably even out.
With klm decrease it looks like the Aberdeen shuttle is the only growth figure to be expected in 2018...my guess is that it will be another flat year with circa 130k passengers.

[Robert-Ryan]

Thanks for the support mmeman, every now and then a load of trolls come out of the woodwork and gang up on the one or two supporters and they think because there are more of them it means they are right, including one or two who are clearly headcases.

Truth is, you cannot form a full and complete opinion from the outside looking in, there are considerations that such individuals could not possibly be aware of.

[highwideandugly]

Does the addition of RNAV approaches..actually mean anything..surely it’s down to whether the aircraft are equipped to operate.Not sure what infrastructure or cost it is to the airport?
Anyone in ATC care to enlighten us all?.Sure KLM would be fine but not sure about others.. Cheers

[NorthSouth]

Yes, down to whether operators are equipped, but also whether RNAV approaches offer any operational advantages over ILS. Tellingly, the framework briefing document for the DTVA RNAV approaches states: "The ILS will remain the primary approach aid." RNAV approaches won't match the current 200ft decision height on the ILS in both directions.

Also "The Change Sponsor confirmed that the procedures were not being introduced to attract growth"

[JollyTraveller]

In the link you find Durham Tees Valley Airport / Peels reason for wanting a changes to restrictions of use of land on south side of the airport. https://www.stockton.gov.uk/media/876576/sbc014-consultationstatementreg22.pdf

[SWBKCB]

In the link you find Durham Tees Valley Airport / Peels reason for wanting a changes to restrictions of use of land on south side of the airport.

Perhaps somebody should ask them what's changed that they need this amendment away from aviation related uses - classic salami slicing

[JollyTraveller]

I did post the sections about Durham Tees Valley Airport but admin removed them so you will have to read it.

It seems Durham Tees Valley Airport / Peel are saying other airports like Newcastle, Manchester don't have the same restrictions on their land as Durham Tees Valley Airport does on its land.

They are saying the restrictions on the land make it more difficult to develop the land.

so they are asking for level playing field with the other airports.

[SWBKCB]

Yes - I've read it. So what's changed since it was originally agreed?

[JollyTraveller]

What did people expect to happen to villages on the edge two large towns that are almost joined together already. The A67 will most likely be first area of land to be fully developed land linking Stockton on Tees and Darlington.

[highwideandugly]

Housing and airports(major) are not really a marriage made in heaven...

Not sure to be honest what is the best mix..help!

Gut feeling is..sorry..still don’t trust PEEL..

[Robert-Ryan]

Air Ambulance base got approval today

[JollyTraveller]

Here is a link to the planning application for the new Great North Air Ambulance base. It seems Durham Tees Valley Airports interests have been took into account and the restrictions have been put in place that should protect the airport. https://www.developmentmanagement.stockton.gov.uk/online-applications/applicationDetails.do?activeTab=documents&keyVal=OJD742PKJG700

[N707ZS]

Not a nice place to work 100 year plus of poison in the ground, interesting reading about digging foundation holes and contamination. At least they won't be able to have any other helicopters on site.

[Robert-Ryan]

Win win for everyone really, GNAA get their extravagant palace, airport gets increased rental income from being able to fit more planes in their current hangar, plus an air traffic services fee

[Robert-Ryan]

For all I know there may not be a fee, but plenty think there will be. I think any charge is more than justifiable. They're said to be very wealthy as far as charities go, and the rumoured designs supposedly contain lot's of marble and fancy glass

[highwideandugly]

How times change..I’m sure most were disappointed on here when the move was announced originally?
Still think it would have been, Operationally,financially and sensible to remain on the airport site?

[Beafer]

Ah I raised the "fee" question as you mentioned one before.
As for marble and fancy glass, I'm sure the charity trustees wouldn't allow such extravagance at the new HQ?

The plans for the Urlay Nook GNAA site say it has to be built within 3 years, so it will be just before Robert Hough's comments of only guaranteeing the airport for 5 years when he was questioned by the press last year.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/business/business-news/qa-durham-tees-valley-airport-11522602
Robert Hough quote:
"Secondly, there is an agreement we have entered into with the local authorities which is a framework under which we will give assurances for the future to keep open the airport for a period of 10 years with a break at five years or thereafter in the event of certain financial criteria not being met.

To do that, it is very rare for an airport operator particularly in a smaller regional airport to guarantee continuity for any period of time. These breaks provide options".

Re the quote "in the event of certain financial criteria not being met", has Robert revealed what those criteria are?
Have Peel published the figures anywhere? It would seen the councils were informed, where is this information on councils websites?

[tigertanaka]

Beefer, as much as we would all like Peel to detail every part their cunning plan for the airport and give forensic details on the financial situation, it is not to going to happen. Maybe your questions are are better directed at the charity and your local councillor and then you could maybe report your findings on here?

See U2 were doing training flights again this afternoon.

[Robert-Ryan]

On the one hand yes it's a bit cheeky when you're taking £6 off every passenger for the same purpose, on the other hand who cares where it's coming from as long as it is coming

[oldart]

I would imagine the council tax payers might think otherwise.

[Robert-Ryan]

Yes I would too - let them

[N707ZS]

A juicy bit of dirt there. If you look back in history, note to dirt hound, our neighbouring airports must have had millions gifted by local councils and EU over the years when DTVA got nothing.

[Beafer]

I'm sure most tax payers will agree that with Peel being a billion pound company run by an owner called Whittaker who is also worth £2.4 billion himself, they shouldn't be asking for public handouts, especially when nobody knows what the money will be spent on. :ugh:

I think this has been how Peel managed to get hold of a public owned airport for the small sum of £500,000, when they last valued the DTVA land being worth £30m.
It all smells a bit with the latest news coming out :yuk:

Time for Peel to be given back their £500,000 or should it be £5,000 for running the place into the ground.

Lets hope these unusual verbal agreements where Labour councillors approve of gifting Peel another half a million pounds of public money is looked into by the Prime Ministers department.

Did the same council leaders approve this large payment before jumping off the airport board, or after jumping ship? Sounds like a mother fine mess they may have got themselves into!

How many staff are employed at the airport? or is just another Peel secret now they don't pay the staff pensions?

[highwideandugly]

Times of change..sometimes..and just sometimes Beafer dredges up some interesting dirt

Would really love to know where this income/ cash is going..is it stated anywhere where the 6 fee goes .Thanks to FODTV,Menial tasks are financed.

Can anyone with authority state where income from the operations etc.Are being re invested?
Lump sums as above..where is the the reinvestment?

Sorry. Still not convinced by PEEL. Ideology.

[pug]

Without wishing to wade into this particular debate with both feet, there has to be a wider argument about how a private sector property tycoon with very little accountability is handed £millions in public funding to prop up apparent loss leaders. I understand Government bail outs, and public-private initiatives, but this just seems like robbery in plain sight. Apologies if a little off topic, but while these companies plead poverty, the surrounding land is being developed into real estate making said company £millions. All seems somewhat iffy.

[oldart]

So have Peel intimated to the councils what routes they might try and bring back!
It would not take much exploring to find out what routes worked for the airport in the past, bucket and spade must still be a good way to re-start.

[Mike Flynn]

It takes a lot more than a few summer flights to the Mediterranean to support an airport.

With Newcastle just an hour up the road in the long term Teeside airport looks doomed in much the same way as Blackpool.

[N707ZS]

Blackpool is still open.

[Mike Flynn]

For scheduled services?

[N707ZS]

Scheduled services or charter flights as they were at Blackpool doesn't mean you are making money. Newcastle just up the road is in the red financially.
DTVA has its core flights and a number of based aviation companies.

[Mike Flynn]

Newcastle handles around five million passengers a year and is in a different league to to both Durham and Blackpool.

[onion]

Belfast
Dublin
London
Any Spanish resort
Turkey
Greece
Rome
Barcelona
Have all in the past done well in terms of numbers.
You could add the likes of Prague and Paris too.
Problem is frequency, price and yield.
If it is a business destination like London or Belfast it needs to be double daily (morning and evening) at least. Otherwise it won't compete.
If it's more of a holiday/short break destination frequency isn't as important.
Then comes price and then finally yield.
If the price isn't right people will go elsewhere. If yield isn't right the airline will go elsewhere. An airline may make money out of a route out of MME but may be able to make more elsewhere!

Getting the right airline in with the right aircraft and product is key!

It wasn't that long ago MME to LHR was a 20k pax a month route.
I would bet my house there is still a 5-10k a month market to London depending on connections and price and I doubt that would have a big impact on the AMS either.

[Lancelot37]

Newcastle handles around five million passengers a year and is in a different league to to both Durham and Blackpool.

AND it still is in debt.

[SWBKCB]

and DTVA isn't?

[N707ZS]

DTVA is I believe in debt but only a small amount compared to the neighbours.

[Mike Flynn]

As I have said before with Durham,Humberside,Teeside etc we are talking micky mouse airports.

Newcastle traffic was 10% up last year and is the busiest north of Manchester.

Truly international with the Emirate link to Dubai,BA to Heathrow and Air France to Paris.

There is no way any business plan will escalate traffic at Durham and in my opinion the owners see it as a land bank.

[N707ZS]

So what's your point of being on this thread?

[Mike Flynn]

Being objective is the simple answer.

Teeside does itself no favours charging a departure fee.

[Beafer]

Exactly, Peel are charging passengers to walk through the empty airport, and then ask for a further half a million off the councils. Just another Peel stealth tax.

Why did the councils pick up the staff pension payments if they knew Peel are planning on taking a break point in 5 years (Shown in Evening Gazette)?
Whats there to stop Peel closing the place which will leave the councils to pay out pension payments to all the DTV staff?

I suppose the councils will raise council tax to pay for it :=

[Robert-Ryan]

A complete top-to-bottom overhaul of the terminal:- if you wanted to close the airport you would just leave it alone because in it's previous state it serves your purpose better

Bringing Loganair in to save a deteriorating route:- again, you would just allow it to die a death and then release a press statement saying "Oh deary me"

Paying seven figures for new security and radar equipment:- yes ok it can probably be packed up and moved elsewhere, but I would imagine that would be somewhat awkward and the damn sight cheaper option would be to not buy it in the first place because once again, older and depreciating equipment strengthens a business case to close

Releasing a fairly conclusive myth-busting PDF document:- perhaps they might want some of the myths debunking so in the event of closure it would be harder for the public to say "I told you so", but you wouldn't go to THAT much trouble to debunk them, coupled with other efforts to boost reputation such as the world-renowned world host training all of the staff are doing, and the customer feedback forms/Email address that are being given out in the terminal (and before anyone suggests it yes they are being read as I've witnessed the feedback being actioned with my own eyes).

Seems to me the evidence they are trying to keep it open is stronger than the evidence they are trying to close it, but it's harder for people to see - or they're just choosing not to see, either way

[SWBKCB]

If Peel close the airport it just becomes another brown field site and planning permission becomes far more difficult to get, as you haven't got the global connectivity carrot to dangle in front of the LA's.

Hence the recent investments in the terminal etc - they need to keep KLM and/or the CAA happy or their development land loses its USP.

I have no problem with Peel getting as much public money to support their business as is available - what is clearly unacceptable is if that "investment" isn't properly documented and accounted for. The Northern Echo story reads like something out of Private Eye - good on them for publishing, and the lack of rebuttal is interesting.

Jay Sata - you don't do the credibility of your argument much good if you repeatedly spell the name of the place wrong (or is it just me it irritates?)

[onion]

Jay Sata is a troll. He harassed the Norwich thread and now he's trying to do the same here.
He doesn't know the airport or the area. He is just trying to get a rise!

I don't think the argument on here should be NCL is better than MME or that MME is carrying less debt than NCL. It should be more around how the people of the area hold Peel and the councils accountable and to keep asking the question why isn't Peel doing more.
I don't like Peel one bit but they won't go due to the land. We can though keep the pressure on by asking the awkward questions. They do appear to be making small steps forward though.

[N707ZS]

SWBKCB, back from afternoon tea, yes both are irritating. A new page, what was the last one about.

[SWBKCB]

I don't think the argument on here should be NCL is better than MME or that MME is carrying less debt than NCL

Agreed - and nobody on the outside has a true picture.

I don't like Peel one bit but they won't go due to the land.

Again, spot on :ok:

[NorthSouth]

Newcastle traffic was 10% up last year and is the busiest north of ManchesterGood try, but wrong. Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow are all way way busier than Newcastle on any count (and apologies for saying this on the DTVA thread. I'll shut up now)

[Mike Flynn]

Jay Sata - you don't do the credibility of your argument much good if you repeatedly spell the name of the place wrong (or is it just me it irritates?)

It was 'Teeside International' until 2004 and all my old log book entries are for Teeside.

There is an old saying that you can put lipstick on a pig but it is still a pig.
This tendancy for small UK airports to try and big themselves up as 'International' is just window dressing.

All of these marginal east coast airports suffer the same problem. Because they border the North Sea they only have 50% of the catchment area of a centrally located facility.

A licensed public airport costs a small fortune to run even when there are no flights.

If there was a market Ryanair or Easyjet would be there.

[VentureGo]

Good try, but wrong. Aberdeen, Edinburgh and Glasgow are all way way busier than Newcastle on any count (and apologies for saying this on the DTVA thread. I'll shut up now)

I think JaySata may have been referring to England.

However You are also wrong. Aberdeen (2.9m passengers in 2016 and declining at 15% year on year v 2015)) is a lot smaller in terms of passenger numbers than Newcastle (5.2m Pax. 2017)

Consolidating DTV with Newcastle and improving surface links (Rail, Air-Coach, A1(M) and A19 links) from all DTVA catchment areas would bolster case to expand services and airlines serving the whole North East region via Newcastle International.

[Robert-Ryan]

A google image search shows two variations of airport logos spelt with double-S, several road / rail station signs which use double-S (including many that still do :rolleyes:) and most other places in the region such as the university use double-S, the only instance I can find of it not being double-S is in the 60s when the airport logo featured a hyphen.

[pug]

All of these marginal east coast airports suffer the same problem. Because they border the North Sea they only have 50% of the catchment area of a centrally located facility.

They are, and they also must have some purpose in the main as they'd be long closed if they didn't.

People need to be careful what they wish for, as once these places do close they'll never return.

[N707ZS]

Ground hog day, give it up man VentureGo!

Consolidating DTV with Newcastle and improving surface links (Rail, Air-Coach, A1(M) and A19 links) from all DTVA catchment areas would bolster case to expand services and airlines serving the whole North East region via Newcastle International.

We might as well go to Manchester.

[JollyTraveller]

It will be interesting to see what new routes are on the way. The other airports can't take that many more passengers from Durham Tees Valley Airport catchment area than currently do.


If Durham Tees Valley Airport starts to get those passengers back it will be interesting to see what affect it has on those airports that lose out on the passengers that decide to use Durham Tees Valley Airport instead of the other airports.


The outlook does seem to be looking a lot more positive now for Durham Tees Valley Airport.

[VentureGo]

N707ZS

Really? ! - Get Real - Manchester takes how long to get there? and then ... Terrible experience! Probably the worst airport in the country (including DTVA)
! *%@>..<.$* -Come on, Get real! Newcastle Int. Airport could be 30 - 45 mins (quicker than Central London to Heathrow) in comfortable & fast link at fraction of costs being provided to keep a failing airport (DTV) on life support, before it will inevitably expire.

Maybe throwing money at Whittaker to make him even richer is the right response though? - Yes! Maybe you're right!

Sorry for confusing your mind.

Hope you don't mind if I continue to Venture up the road and enjoy a great experience rather than travel south and feel exploited to keep .....What? ....zzzzzzzzz

[No-More-Bullschit]

VentureGo if you think the correct path is closing an airport that will not "inevitably expire" as you put it then it's very much you who needs to get real

[VentureGo]

Yes! You're right. .... I'll try my best to get real. Thank You so much ....

[highwideandugly]

This thread is like a rumbling semi dormant volcano..every so often jumping into life!

For an airport that is at the lower end of the spectrum for services etc.it generates an awful lot of hot air.

Now if all these people had actually flown from here when the services were there we might not be in this state?
Going to be an interesting year as always..pretty much stagnant passenger figures,no major aviation development and PEEL seeing how much money they can extract from the local populous in the name of DTV.

[SWBKCB]

DTVA loses about £2m a year. Where's this fast comfortable link coming from, and how much would it cost??

[sealink]

Worked for BD as ground crew back in the day and worked overtime at MME. Great airport back then and we stayed at the George Hotel if my memory is correct. Nice hotel but even then it was dated and quiet. How is it now? Surely with the demise of the airport it must have suffered.

[oldart]

Does anybody know why Eastern have been operating larger aircraft on their route this last week?

[highwideandugly]

A. Competition
B. shortage of other aircraft and crews
C. passenger numbers dictate

Answers on a postcard please..

[SWBKCB]

Would you use the new VIP lounge at Durham Tees Valley Airport? Here's what it will cost

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/would-you-use-new-vip-14271049

[Beafer]

Thats the biggest joke out of Peel yet! £22 per person to use a lounge.
The public comments underneath the article say it all.
Jokers.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/would-you-use-new-vip-14271049

[Robert-Ryan]

Disgusting reporting from the Gazette, it's a like for like replacement lounge with upgrades, the Swissport lounge probably cost a similar amount. There's an existing customer base that will hopefully be built on

[Robert-Ryan]

Beafer, we posted at the same time, luckily my post wipes the floor with yours several times over

[SWBKCB]

Can you clarify exactly what is "disgusting" about the Gazette report?

[LTNman]

Seems reasonable to me as it includes alcoholic drinks and hot meals. With next to no one likely to use it due to a lack of flights it will no doubt run at a loss but at least they are trying.

[SWBKCB]

Presumably KLM's frequent flyers get access without paying the £22.... :ok:

[tigertanaka]

What a non story.

The airport is refurbishing the existing lounge.
Frequent flyers & business class customers get access already and will still be able to go in the new lounge.
You can pay £18.95 to enter the lounge today.
Post refurbishment it will cost £21.95 but they are now offering hot food.

What is wrong with this (apart from the fact that the current lounge seems ok to me)?

[oldart]

Consolidating DTV with Newcastle and improving surface links (Rail, Air-Coach, A1(M) and A19 links) from all DTVA catchment areas would bolster case to expand services and airlines serving the whole North East region via Newcastle International.
Ever tried using the A1 between Chester le Street and Metro Centre during the rush hour, the recent improvements have not made much difference to travel time. Try 90 minutes from Teesside, that's more realistic.

[Callum Paterson]

If you don't like it then don't pay it. Simple as that.

[P330]

...wrt the lounge fee. 90%+ of people that use it do so on the back of airline status and class of travel and therefore don't pay a penny. The cost for a pay as you enter charge appears fairly comparable. I'm a regular user of the lounge and look forward to the changes, though the old lounge was more than adequate for a 45 minutes pre-flight rest!

[Beafer]

Sounds like these Labour councillors are out of touch with the residents. Good to see the Mayor is stopping them from giving tax payers money away again.

Why give a billion pound company another £500,000 for marketing and solicitors when Whittaker is worth a couple of billion himself.
The sale of the airport raises more questions in that the same councils won't release the airport sale documents.

Time for Peel to take a walk and give the airport to the Mayor to control. Better still start a compulsory purchase to force Peel to sell up.
Thye have sold before to VAS whats stopping them now.... oh yes the land :yuk:
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/mayor-promises-veto-plans-give-14286638

I look forward to seeing a public investigation into who decided to sell to Peel in the first place and WHY? What was in it for that person?

[No-More-Bullschit]

Beafer, you really don't have the first clue do you? :ugh:

[SWBKCB]

Just what the airport needs - to become a political football between Tory boy and the Labour cronies. Not a great environment for investment.

[mmeman]

Wonder who are the 2 holiday companies wanting to fly from Durham Tees, and where to, mentioned in a tweet from Alex Cunningham this morning. Isn't it a bit late to launch flights for this summer?

What is the mayor achieving by stopping the £500,000 that has already been agreed by the councils, hadn't it?

[Robert-Ryan]

This is the third rumour I mentioned a while ago that I thought must have died a death. Just read the full press release, so the Mayor is trying to block it and all because it doesn't suit his Peel=bad policy!!

mmeman its for summer 19

[highwideandugly]

So is this a massive change of direction from PEEL. These extra services for 2019..are they full series or one offs....which ever,PEEL will have to change their policy of actually employing people and providing services full time..or will they? What has changed?

Beafer..you better get your skates on!!!

[Robert-Ryan]

IF it is the rumour; then it's full series, and no not a change of policy by Peel, just they will have found a responsible way to make it work for the airport as well as the airline

[highwideandugly]

Interesting times and as 2019 brochures hit the shelves soon “I could crush a grape” with anticipation!!

Let’s hope the ATC closures are sorted out by then! Maybe the 500k. Would be best spent now on employing more operational staff....

[fjencl]

Do we think there would be much demand for flights down to East or North London, so perhaps Southend, Luton Or Stansted from Durham Tees Valley on a daily basis.

[highwideandugly]

Going to be a busy thread....but.. currently 65K passengers paying say..an average £5 per passenger facility fee. That’s....325k income per year...and going with that is the bad PR and poor comments associated with the fee/tax

So how about cancelling that tax/fee...in exchange for the 500k requested/required/needed.Or do they need both? Some goodwill and a positive statement from PEEL re their intentions for the airport?

[Beafer]

Under the article there is a good question by a poster who asked about the extra £500k which Peel want.
If they only paid £500k for the whole airport, and they are given £500k does that mean they got the airport for nothing?.

Labour councillors appear to have had a knee jerk reaction to all the negative comments about them wanting to give Peel more money, and have put out a press statement, but its just a political bun fight!
They haven't got a clue. They have sat on the DTVA directors board for years and have done nothing but bow to Peels instructions.

The councillors obviously joined the new TVA panel at Peels request to oppose the Mayors plans for the airport.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/qa-airport-cash-row-money-14291152

Peel have made it public that they only give the airport 5 years, and will take a break to consider their options. Do the councillors receive any money for sitting on all of the boards?

[Robert-Ryan]

“We have a solid proposition to invest and grow our airport but the Tees Valley Mayor is only interested in paying expensive consultants to try to make sense of his un-costed election pledge to buy the airport.

“It is simply reckless to put these new flights at risk.

“Mayor Houchen needs to stop playing politics and support our airport.”
Never thought I would hear such common sense from an MP...Beafer, read and take note of what something that really is "well said" looks like!

and some more:

“The public will be rightly angry that, after the Tees Valley Mayor made saving the airport such a large part of his election campaign, he is now effectively blocking efforts to bring in more flights.

and then the idiot himself drops this clanger:

Mr Houchen struck back, promising to veto any plans to put taxpayers’ money into the hands of Peel Group “for nothing in return”.
FOR SEVERAL NEW HOLIDAY FLIGHTS YOU MORON!

[P330]

Have to say, this is a tough one.

Firstly, you may need to pass me the medicine bottle because I do have some sympathy for the Beafer view on additional public money. An ethical question should be had about public money being plied into the pockets of wealthy organisations.

In addition, if £500k was the only difference needed to turn an iffy business proposal into a good one, then you would expect that a savvy business man like Whittaker to put the money in? After all the deal is good or bad regardless of whether we use public funds right?

I would suggest therefore that if the Mayor wins this argument and the money isn't stumped up, and the flights don't come, then it probably wasn't a sustainable, money making business proposition. Maybe, just maybe, once the money dried up and the new holiday flights were running under their own steam/economics, the airline would have left or Peel would have kicked them out again.

If I am wrong and £500k is the real difference between success and failure, then surely someone other than the council can make this happen right? Is that the best use of public money?

Now, putting the Beafer pills aside, the fact that we are finally talking holiday flights again is fantastic. When flights were pulled before, they were 'w' rotations. If something has changed, then maybe we are talking about a summer base? And wouldn't it be great if it was a right sized aircraft, say from FlyBe, with tour operators selling seats on it as well as Flybe selling their own seats. That way it's sustainable and not a potentially low yielding 737.

Have to say exciting news...let's just hope the money people and the decision makers make the right choices, be that council money or otherwise!

[Hipennine]

Am I reading all this correctly?

1/ There are some new holiday flights in the offing.
2/ These won't happen unless Peel gets half a million quid.
3/ The half million is therefore a subsidy to allow a wealthier minority to enjoy a more convenient flight departure airport.

Where is the structural, strategic economic benefit in this to the Tees Valley and wider area to justify more public money (my money) funding this?

[something_diferent]

Seems Loganair to Aberdeen has been pulled.

[Robert-Ryan]

Thank goodness there's lots more coming because Loganair just pulled Aberdeen

[01475]

That's unfortunate. My hopes for the future of the airport would have been more Loganair routes :-( ( Though I guess that with Eastern having pulled out Loganair's patch, ...)

[No-More-Bullschit]

Que the Peel bashers...

[01475]

I would hope nobody tries to bash Peel over this one - something very different is happening; Eastern and Loganair have agreed (tacitly or otherwise) to end their collective blood-letting.

[mmeteesside]

Exactly... Loganair flying into DTVA was the last bastion of the Eastern/Flybe v Loganair war, which has all calmly come to and end recently, so nobody can say this was unexpected. I question the "lease a suitable aircraft" comment though, what's that supposed to mean? Were the Saab 340s unsuitable?

[highwideandugly]

Not unexpected to those without the rose coloured glasses on.

Unfortunately guys,watch this space as we are back to square one..eastern to ABZ..just look at the track record as you have all been happy to previously point out.
I’m afraid Eastern have ,shall we say, a few problems of their own.Unbeleivable..from a ridiculous 7/8 ABZ flights per day..we may be down to 0/0 shortly...the future..phew!

[01475]

I'm actually surprised Loganair didn't win - I have a feeling they could have killed Eastern if they'd wanted to.

[Robert-Ryan]

I don't wear rose tinted glasses and it was a huge surprise to me! I don't feel a need to observe the secrecy now so I don't mind saying they were going to be launching Glasgow, Belfast, Guernsey, and a Dundee-Durham-Southampton by all accounts! Huge loss. Also because this hasn't come from sources within the airport I don't mind saying loose lipped eastern captains are saying we're getting an Embraer 145 on their Aberdeen route from next month with a Dublin rotation in between, but if this was a response to competition from Loganair they might abandon it?

[N707ZS]

Thought the Guernsey was already on the cards for this summer, presume its going to be binned.

[P330]

I was going to ask about Guernsey too?

Not good news after all the earlier positive excitement.

I know it's a different case, but this highlights the fragile economics of the airport and aviation generally. You would have to question the desire to use public money for the holiday flight debate - I can understand the mayor wanting certainty of his return otherwise once the subsidy has being used up, the economics may well not stack up and the airline moves on or gets kicked out. If the returns really are good - I'll invest!!

[Beafer]

I wonder if KLM are getting a free deal as they have stayed at DTVA.

Shame about this with all the advertising the did.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/service-cancelled-durham-tees-valley-14295685

[highwideandugly]

RR. Comments weren’t just for you.

I appreciate everyone wanting the airport to succeed but how many kicks do we all have to take? Maybe,just Maybe, everyone is being taken up the garden path and the X Files are at work!!

Do the people who matter..actually want an airport..or ,as some have alluded to,want the land...££ cash is king...

[fjencl]

I wonder if eastern airways will be operating a different timetable for flights now that Loganair are to stop there services from this airport.

[Albert Hall]

Not totally unexpected given the ceasefire which seems to have broken out elsewhere.

By the aircraft lease bit, I see Jethros has a Saab 340B (G-LGNZ) to be WFU Mar18 and I assume that this is what they mean - a replacement would have been needed to continue MME?

Bad news for the airport though. Their only hope is that Eastern actually do something instead of just going back to the J41 and high fares which sparked off this saga to begin with.

[Beafer]

Yes, the company spokesman says they would have to lease another aircraft in in this piece.
Grounded: Airline Loganair scraps Aberdeen services at Durham Tees Valley Airport just months after its launch | The Northern Echo (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/15997483.Grounded__Airline_Loganair_scraps_Aberdeen_services _at_Durham_Tees_Valley_Airport_just_months_after_its_launch/)

Sound like they have just been covering the winter months until their busy spring summer time schedule started.

[highwideandugly]

The above post..just goes to show..it’s all coming home to roost.

You need the staff ...build it and in DTV s case ...it might come.

Super BReaks...oh dear..my info.is. Struggling at those prices to sell... what next....

[Robert-Ryan]

Highwide...you just proved a point I made earlier in the thread, you've blamed DTVA for not hiring staff and your mind is made up. If you knew the full situation, you would know that Eastern did not inform DTVA that they were changing their timetable and that it would put two of their aircraft on the ground at the same time as two others flights, twice each day, they just went ahead and did it, therefore DTVA had no opportunity to staff up, nor did they try to staff up after the fact because they knew Eastern could not be trusted to maintain a consistent schedule

Clutching at straws here but the press release says Loganair will remain an airline partner of DTVA, now how does an airline/airport partnership work that does not include routes, I can only wonder if the above mentioned services might still be on the cards? Surely if that were true they would have said as much?

[highwideandugly]

Surely the airlines talk to the owners before making decisions..if not why not?
All those planned Loganair routes look a bit pie in the sky now.if the loss of the Aberdeen route is down to leasing only one aircraft..Surely it could have been deployed on those other routes,also,sharing the leasing costs?

As I said it’s feels like it’s back to square one.Eastern for the moment with a monopoly and carte blanch to do what they wish apparently.The oil workers again the ones to suffer.
Wonder what the relationship between DTV and Eastern will be like now..fragile I would suspect!

[Robert-Ryan]

I guess not if the Dublin rumour turns out to be true, and you would think of anyone Eastern crew would know?

[fjencl]

Dublin rumour ?

[Robert-Ryan]

See post #508

[highwideandugly]

So flights from DTV,Newcastle,Leeds and don’t forget..good old Carlisle...hope enough passengers to go round...be interesting to see Ryanair’s reaction!!

[oldart]

Do Eastern have a crew based at MME and if so would they be qualified on jet aircraft? I might be wrong but there can't be much difference in timing, say MME to DUB, between a jet and turbo aircraft!

[Beafer]

Ex DTVA Ltd councillors have voted to block the Tees Mayor plans to start buying back airport today.
Its now becoming clearer why they wanted more say on the new board. Could this be just a way of getting back at the new Mayor because Councillor Jeffries didn't win the Mayor seat?

Robert Hough says that Peel don't want to sell the airport. Strange that they did want to sell it before. Could it be the house plans now have planning permission?

Remember the 5 year option which he mentioned in another press interview. What are the Financial Criteria which Peel want in 5 years to keep it open?

It sounds like Labour councillors are doing Peels bidding, but its not surprising considering they gifted Peel the airport and have allowed them to run the place down. Its all sounding a bit like the Sheffield airport saga.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/durham-tees-valley-airport-live-14297629

[No-More-Bullschit]

Excellent to hear the Mayor was blocked this morning, shame he can still overrule it.

Beafer, I know others have said similar things on here before but can you please not state your opinion as though it's definite, you THINK Peel have run the place down, a more likely scenario is that they have managed the airport accordingly as trade has been been lost for reasons relating to the other end and not the airport owners end.

[highwideandugly]

I know I have asked before but waters are still pretty muddy.
Does anyone know when income/revenue might start to flow into the coffers.

To avoid the stink about the “loan” or donation of 500k of local tax payers money..why don’t PEEL as a good honest neighbour..just say ,forget it,we don’t need it,we will put in an interest free loan of 500k to be repaid when the money starts coming in.

Forgive me if I am to9 simplistic or naive!

[fjencl]

Do Eastern have a crew based at MME and if so would they be qualified on jet aircraft? I might be wrong but there can't be much difference in timing, say MME to DUB, between a jet and turbo aircraft!

As far as I am aware eastern airways already operate jets as part of there fleet......

[oldart]

As far as I am aware eastern airways already operate jets as part of there fleet..

Correct, but do they have a qualified jet crew at MME if required?

[Atlantic Explorer]

No crew qualified at MME. I wouldn’t place too much hope on a rumour like that knowing the inner workings of the company. The plans change daily!

[mmeman]

So Eastern have cancelled all 3 of their flights this afternoon/evening 2 from Aberdeen and 1 back up..meaning no flights from Aberdeen for them at all today, and 1 flight up to Aberdeen this morning which went via Humberside - back to 1500 passengers a month when Loganair go because of reliability issues?

Anyone know if they put their passengers on the Loganair flights as notice it is a Saab2000 flying for them?

[highwideandugly]

As I said..they can do what they want now...problem is they are also in a mess...

[SWBKCB]

Good job Peel have worked hard to bring in a competitor to keep them honest - or wait... :(

[SWBKCB]

Having been away this week, just catching up on the latest shenanigans - in all the hot air and posturing, the only comment that makes much sense is this one from a Peel spokesman:

With this all hanging over the airport, opportunities are being missed and confidence is being damaged.

The Mayor seems to be getting even more entrenched against Peel, and he might be right. If only he would say how he plans to buy the airport (where's the money?!) and then what he would do with it his views would be more credible.

I suppose one perverse crumb of comfort is Peel must see some long term value, or they'd dump it in his lap and be done with the hassle!

[highwideandugly]

Would it not be in the public purse interest to stay at DTV?

[Robert-Ryan]

Apparently Peel threw everything at them to stay, but I get the impression their arrogance scuppered any deal

[N707ZS]

Beafer missed this one.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/parmo-producers-urged-support-bid-14300185

[SWBKCB]

highwideandugly

Thought GNAA are a charity?

[highwideandugly]

Can someone correct/inform or whatever...

PEEL want 500k. For what exactly..I don’t know..lbelieve they want the money from the local taxpayers....

PEEL. Want the the local authorities to pay off the local pensions funds for airport employees..AFS,ATC and airport workers...not sure total cost.

Could someone tell me..actually,really..how much have they invested in the airport as a major stakeholder...or have they asked TVCA/DTV. To actually stump up money...
It seems to me...the people who have least investment or shares/stake in the airpor5 are having to provide the majority of the investment??
Phew!

[SWBKCB]

PEEL want 500k. For what exactly..I don’t know..lbelieve they want the money from the local taxpayers....

Here's what the money is for:

£425,000 to support route development and improvements to retail facilities at Durham Tees Valley Airport. DTVA have confirmed to us that the detail of the proposal is commercially confidential, and has therefore been circulated to Members separately. In summary, it proposes:
1.Support to enable additional tour operations in the summer season
2. Marketing support to increase demand for existing routes
3. Market support to establish new routes; and
4. Capital investment to establish a confectionary, tobacco and news duty free outlet.


Could someone tell me..actually,really..how much have they invested in the airport as a major stakeholder...or have they asked TVCA/DTV. To actually stump up money

The airport is reportedly losing £200k a month - that money comes from Peel - you do the sums...

[highwideandugly]

Hang on..what is the develop fee fund for ?

Again..who paid up front for the pension pay off..PEEL or local tax payers..sorry if I sound like Beafers lost son!,

Lot of local money going in...still can’t see PEELS money..or are they waiting for the housing pay out?....

[Robert-Ryan]

If the end result is more flights then nothing else matters, if anyone's bothered about the taxpayer aspect go seek out the professional taxpayers rumour network

[Beafer]

Highwide, its okay dad, I agree with you ;)

Peel no longer pay the airport staff pensions, they managed to get the council to take over paying them!!! I don't know how they managed to pull that one off?
Ah its only tax payers money.

[No-More-Bullschit]

Standard procedure, most major PLCs have in the last few years gone to great lengths to offload pensions