Durham Tees Valley-7

[SWBKCB]

If the end result is more flights then nothing else matters

Don't think this was the view when the TUI and Balkan contracts were cancelled :ugh:

Standard procedure, most major PLCs have in the last few years gone to great lengths to offload pensions

Not sure this is true (any evidence?), and even if it was - doesn't make it right! :=

[highwideandugly]

My argument is not why,,, but how a major investor 90% circa can get a minor investor ,TVCA as is now ,to cough up all these upfront costs .

And after all these months,come on guys we aren’t really seeing much return are we ,other than jam tomorrow ?

[N707ZS]

One thing that seems to have been overlooked the people who are being asked to chip in the meagre 500k do have a stake in the business. What if they had to bail out was it 200k a month on top of this. Do they contribute?

[Robert-Ryan]

Don't think this was the view when the TUI and Balkan contracts were cancelled :ugh:
It was, just not when the airlines in question screw you for everything

[SWBKCB]

Again? So Peel were forced to sign contracts at gun point? What's different this time?

One thing that seems to have been overlooked the people who are being asked to chip in the meagre 500k do have a stake in the business. What if they had to bail out was it 200k a month on top of this. Do they contribute?

I stand to be corrected, but I think the shareholding still sits with the individual Local Authorities, and not the TVCA which has been asked for the funding.

[N707ZS]

So many Quangos and tin piss pot mayors.

[oldart]

It was, just not when the airlines in question screw you for everything

So do the airlines pay anything at all to use the airport or are they going to be given money to fly from MME?

[Robert-Ryan]

Are we really going to do this again? Airlines were allowed to operate to their usual M.O. of paying nothing previously because Peel anticipated further flights would be forthcoming which would lead to sufficient volume to then turn a profit, when it became clear that wasn't going to happen, they had to change their business model accordingly.

As far as future airlines go, I don't know you would have to ask Peel, but it is to be presumed they have found operators who are willing to pay their way?

[SWBKCB]

or they're happy to get anybody in so they can say to the LA's, "Look the Masterplan is working" and so get the zoning of the southside changed?? :suspect:

[Robert-Ryan]

All regional airports will eventually adopt the same approach, as to whether Peel specifically are trying to pull a fast one I don't believe so...there always has been and always will be cynics

[SWBKCB]

And there will always be true believers! :ok:

Just trying to point out there's two ways of looking at things, from the outside either is valid.

[highwideandugly]

Still think we are all being screwed by a very clever operator! But time will tell...fingers crossed I am wrong...

[LTNman]

Don't know much about Teeside but apparently in 2002 the airport sought a strategic partner to assist with future development and Peel Airports Ltd was selected as the preferred company, taking a 75% stake in the airport with a commitment to invest £20m over the subsequent five years.

So did Peel actually buy a stake in the airport or was the promise of a £20 million investment it and they were gifted the land?

Seems that under Peel the airport passenger figures has collapsed but they hold all the cards and a massive land bank.

[Robert-Ryan]

SWBKCB

Can't argue with that I suppose.

LTNman, it's all on Durham Tees Valley Airport ? Flying for the future (http://dtva.info)

[N707ZS]

LTNman Peel probably has put £20 million plus in and intend to put more in if you read back.

[Beafer]

N707ZS - I doubt Peel have put in anything like £20m.
If they have paid anything, its probably been paid into their other hundreds of Peel companies who bill DTVA each month for services such as Air Traffic.

Robert Hough was interviewed as a guest speaker by The Manchester Grammar School. 7th Feb 2018.
http://www.mgslife.org/story/dfa41f9af8

Robert revealed that he used to be a solicitor, and that he is worried about the European funding being stopped because of Brexit. He says has great hopes for the Northern Powerhouse, so they must be looking for more government funding for something.

Looking at Peels activities around the country, there are a lot of Master Plans, but most communities involved have concerns about what Peel are doing in their area.
Under Peels ownership the passengers have fallen from nearly a million to just over 100k each year. I wouldn't call that a good plan if they are trying to improve the airport. I would call it a disaster for people wanting to fly on holiday from DTVA.

[jetstar.8]

Peel know how to make a airport work look at Doncaster opened in 2005 over a 1m pasengers last year (more in a month than we get in a year)
frequent frieght flights 747s MD11s Antonov`s various airlines crew training
so why can`t they do it here

[inOban]

In my version of the English language, which may not be Peel's, 'invest' means capital investment, not covering current expenditure. What I think annoys many people is that they take great efforts to avoid paying UK taxes by being based in IOM.

[Beafer]

I wasn't aware that fire fighters had to unload aircraft and marshal as well as fight fires?
Does this happen at other international airports such as Newcastle or Leeds?

Can you imagine an emergency taking place while stuck in the hold of a plane unloading bags, and then having to head back to the fire station in an emergency.

Do the CAA approve of this type of fire cover when they do their inspections. I thought all airport emergencies had to be within a certain time limit?
Jack of all trades advert.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/animal-care-assistant-rscpa-unusual-14312655

[SWBKCB]

I wasn't aware that fire fighters had to unload aircraft and marshal as well as fight fires? Does this happen at other international airports such as Newcastle or Leeds?

Probably not at these two, but it's common at smaller airports (no slight intended!).

Do the CAA approve of this type of fire cover when they do their inspections.

No, of course not - that's why the airport have advertised it in a major regional newspaper - they're just hoping that nobody will notice (especially the guys from the world renowned fire training organisation based on site....) :ugh:

[Beafer]

DTV Airport owners, Peel and the labour councillors minority should call into Newcastle Airport to see how they can achieve over 200,000 passengers in one month, which is double what DTV now has in one year!

Peel and the minority share holders should let the Tees Mayor buy it back so he can ask the Newcastle owners how its done.

Newcastle Airport ?place to be? as record passenger numbers bolster £3.5m investment | The Northern Echo (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/business/16037088.Newcastle_Airport____place_to_be____as_record_passe nger_numbers_bolster___3_5m_investment/)

[SWBKCB]

Leaving aside how he would pay for it, what does the Mayor know about running an airport? What would he do differently?

[mcginty1]

During Peels tenure they have done nothing but encourage airlines to leave. Ryanair ran flights to Alicante ;Peel then introduced the £6 passenger fee, which coincidentally is Ryanairs profit margin per seat, and Ryanair were off.

Thomson ran holiday flights; wanted to use the airport and incredibly Peel told them to leave.

Theses are two of many confirmed.

One unconfirmed from 10 years ago , was about KLM. They wanted to expand their freight operation. They asked Peel about using DTV. If they were given the opportunity they would scrap flights from AMS to NCL and LBA and use DTV as their hub for the North East. Our Councillor friends from SBC who sat on the board soon scuppered that on 'Noise pollution'
There is a viable product in DTV, many on here know it, and so does Ben Houchen.
Look at Globespan. They ran 2 flights per day from our airport and I never got on one that wasn't full. Unfortunately they ventured into transatlantic and it cost them.
The airport needs an airline like Globespan or Ryanair or even Norwegian to follow this model. It needs daily flights to London, and flights to Ireland , Dublin and/or Belfast. The people are here but before long they will throw the towel in and play right into Peels hands.
I travel every week by air , and do so as much as possible from DTV. I welcome the changes being made to the terminal. We just need a few more routes... and I think the mayor recognises Peel are not interested in the slightest bit.

[Robert-Ryan]

Some of the foundationless comments on here beggar belief!

[01475]

If someone came along and said they'd operate daily flights to London, Dublin and Belfast I'm sure Peel would be delighted to let them, and off the back of that I'm sure they'd also then be delighted to let someone bring a planeload of 200 people at a couple of random times a week too.

But while I'm sure there'd be people willing to fly the 200 or so holiday makers at two random times per week (flyGlobespan was a sad case; if it hadn't been a victim of fraud by it's payment processor I'm sure it would still be around), who do we think might might be willing to operate the daily flights to London, Dublin and Belfast?

In particular, who would be willing to run the service to London? Darlington has 2 trains an hour to London from about 5am to almost 10pm, and a lot of them take less than 2h30m. Even with the most welcoming airport operator in the world I wouldn't like to try and compete against that with anything other than another train.

Also, how do the conspiracy theorists explain Peel's other airports? If Peel are a hydra like monster desperate to land grab at airports why is Liverpool ticking along nicely and why have they done the total exact opposite at Doncaster? They strike me as a group happy, in circumstances where it's possible, to both operate and develop airports.

[Piltdown Man]

People performing more than one function at small Scandinavian airports is very common. It makes for more an interesting day and personal job satisfaction, it keeps the costs down and keeps the airport open. And why can’t one person learn all of these functions? Check-in, Gate Agent, Baggage Handling, Refuelling, cleaning etc... and obviously be paid for the extra responsibility. And there is no conflict of interest. Fires come first.

[mcginty1]

This is a record of the “verbal Agreement” made between the Tees Valley council leaders and Peel, two months BEFORE the mayoral elections in May 2017. It is SHOCKING both in its intention and in its arrogance.
In it the council leaders promise to give Peel not just one payment of £500,000, but four payments of £500,000 over four years plus an immediate investment of £2 million!
Let me explain something. Peel was sold 75% of the airport shares so that it could use its deep pockets to support and grow the airport for the benefit of the area. It was given, yes given, another 14% for nothing. Since then passenger numbers have plummeted from a high of nearly 1 million to a low of just over 100,000. At the same time Peel have soaked up millions in grants of taxpayers money.
THIS HAS TO BE THE FINAL STRAW. Your local council leaders met in secret and promised to give Peel another £4 million of your money to do the job that it was brought in to do in the first place. It was done before the mayoral election in the belief that the election was a formality that would see Sue Jeffrey elected without any fuss. Fortunately the people of Teesside have finally woken up to the scandal of Peels ownership of the failing airport and voted in someone who has pledged to save it.
Your local council leaders were taken by surprise but have still not learned from it. They still voted to give Peel the first payment of £500,000. The Mayor has said that he WILL NOT AGREE to any of this payment being made. More power to his elbow!
"Draft - as discussed by Council Leaders – March 2017"
CREATING A SUSTAINABLE, FLOURISHING AIRPORT
A DRAFT DEVELOPMENT PROGRAMME FOR GROWTH AT DURHAM TEES VALLEY AIRPORT
I. Durham Tees Valley Airport is a significant asset for the Tees Valley and its wider catchment area. It provides critical connections for local business, as well as for residents for leisure and to see family and also opportunities for visitors and tourists – inward and outward.
But, in a challenging environment for many regional airports, in recent years it has faced declining passenger numbers. Without joint action and a partnership commitment, the Airport will fail to make a contribution to the ambitions of the Tees Valley’s Strategic Economic Plan, and its long-term sustainability cannot be assured.
The Airport, with Peel Group its majority shareholder, and the Tees Valley Combined Authority share the objective to turn this situation around. We have therefore agreed to jointly invest in a major development programme with the aim of:
• Establishing a growth trajectory for Durham Tees Valley Airport, and ensuring long-term financial sustainability by 2021;
• Retaining existing flights, establishing new routes, and paving the way for the re-establishment of flights to an expanded Heathrow;
• Establishing Durham Tees Valley Airport as a business growth hub, opening up new sites for business to locate near a successful international gateway;
• Developing a successful new community around the Airport, with excellent transport connections and community facilities; and
• Strengthening the partnership between the Airport, Peel Group, the Combined Authority and the Councils, and the wider community.
II. To achieve these objectives, the joint Development Programme ("the Joint Programme") will bring forward and establish the following:
• A stronger role for the Airport in promoting the delivery of the Strategic Economic Plan, the development of key sectors, the UK’s Industrial Strategy, and the attraction of inward investment to the Tees Valley.
• A strategy for route development, targeted at establishing new regular routes by 2021, and promoting a more strategic approach by government to the Regional Air Connectivity Fund or successor fund.
• Paving the way for a new route to Heathrow, in advance of its expansion, and delivering on the government’s commitment that flights to Durham Tees Valley will be facilitated by a Heathrow 3rd runway.
• Influencing national policy, international trade policy, and contributing to Transport for the North’s ambitions for enhanced international connectivity.
• Accelerated delivery of the business sites identified in the Masterplan for the Airport; including:
- an investment of £2 million from Tees Valley’s Capital Investment Plan to open up business sites on the north side of the Airport; and
- further phases of development of the North and South side.
• A proposal to government to establish an Enterprise Zone at the Airport.
• Improvements to the Airport site; including better access from the road network, improved signage, and better facilities for passengers.
• Investment to enhance the use of the airport for freight, with good local facilities and stronger links into national logistics networks.
• Development (with Darlington and Stockton Councils) of simplified planning arrangements, including the option of a Local Development Order.
• Development of a business case for improved surface access to the station, including:
- New rail links to replace the redundant Durham Tees Valley Airport station, and improvements to rail services across the Tees Valley.
- Better bus connections using the powers being made available to the Combined Authority through the Buses Bill.
- Investment in Tees Valley’s key route network, and improvements to the Tees Valley’s East-West road links to the A1(M), expanding the 1-hour catchment area for the Airport.
• Subject to planning permission, the delivery of housing proposals for the Northside of the Airport, including the delivery of infrastructure, site preparation and public realm.
• Support for initiatives to enhance skills levels and contribute to the Tees Valley’s skills and employment objectives, by developing high quality apprenticeships and training programmes in the aviation engineering sector and associated careers.
A marketing and promotion budget, to establish Aero Centre Tees Valley as a compelling business proposition, to raise awareness of the Airport and the business opportunities arising from investment on the site.
III. Resources and Accountability
This Joint Programme will be subject to review as to its progress and objectives by the Chairman of Peel Airports, Robert Hough, and the TVCA but without prejudice to the individual responsibility of any company, body or authority for its particular role or duty in any relevant subject area. Reports will also be made regularly to the Tees Valley Combined Authority Cabinet.
The Joint Programme will be overseen on a day-to-day basis by the Managing Director of the Tees Valley Combined Authority, working with an assigned specific DTVA Development Director based at the Airport. The Development Director will play a full and active role in the Tees Valley’s business community and also provide leadership for the Airport's development programme, supported by the wider Airport and Peel management resources. The Development Director will also join the Tees Valley Combined Authority’s Transport and Infrastructure Group, alongside other partners such as Network Rail and Teesport, in support of the Tees Valley’s wider ambitions for local, national and international connectivity.
To develop the full range of proposals for the Joint Programme set out above, the Tees Valley Combined Authority will make an immediate commitment of £0.5 million a year for the four years ending March 2018-2021, from its Development Fund (separate and additional to the £2M investment referred to in Section 2 above). This will be matched by an equivalent commitment from DTVA, with Peel Group as its majority shareholder also providing expertise and development capacity as required. The partners will consider the appropriate vehicle for the delivery of this programme, for example, as a formal or informal partnership, or joint venture, underpinned by a more detailed partnership agreement.
The partners will wish to see and jointly consider the case for a further extension of this programme beyond 2021, as its value is demonstrated."
PLEASE " SHARE" .........all the people of TEESSIDE and surrounding areas need to see this !

[SWBKCB]

Local councils invest in infrastructure everyday to promote growth and jobs in their area, which is what this document is about. Note Peel will be matching or exceeding any investment from the LA's.

01475 is right about any London route. To where, by whom?

Ryanair don't run away from gold mines, Globespan stepped into bmiBaby's shoes after they left because they couldn't make money (even though they had a long term contract with Peel). Their flights may have been full but nobody stepped in to replace them - must tell us something.

The KLM story makes no sense to me.

[Robert-Ryan]

Nope still no foundation.

[JollyTraveller]

The Following information has been taken from the Companies House Website. Durham Tees Valley Airport Limited Company number 02020423.

From the Durham Tees Valley Airport Limited report and accounts for year ended 31st March 2012.

On 10th February 2012 34,216,420 shares of £0.01 each were issued by the company. The consideration for these shares was the release of the Company's obligation £24,285,414 of loans to Peel Airports Limited. https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423

[JollyTraveller]

Tees Valley Combined Authority has issued a paper to give background information on Durham Tees Valley Airport ahead of the 22nd February 2018 (special Cabinet Meeting) https://teesvalley-ca.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/DTVA-Background-Paper-1.pdf

[SWBKCB]

Thanks - that's an interesting document and well worth reading. Puts into context a lot of the recent "discussions".

[Jamesair]

Although very interesting, I feel that the first step needs to be to get rid of the £6 passenger charge which is a major disincentive to any potential operator, it's seems like an anti-passenger tax when added to the existing Govt. tax per passenger.

[JollyTraveller]

The £6 is paid by passenger not any potential operator. Other airports charge for drop offs and pick ups, fast track systems etc.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

That report says 3.5 million people live within 60 minutes. True but the vast majority of those millions are well served by airports either side of Teesside that have bigger immediate catchment populations. Teesside's immediate catchment population is much less than a million which is exactly why the airport will not work. You cannot ignore the airports that serve Newcastle and West Yorkshire. Other than plonking another 1 million people in Darlington / Middlesbrough the writing is on the wall.

[Jamesair]

I am aware of that but it still has to be taken into account when planning a trip and adds £6 to the cost of your journey.

[LEEDS APPROACH]

My posts are not appearing on the forum? I've not said anything offensive. Am I being censored? Seems quite unfair. Perhaps a MOD could answer?

[oldart]

So reading through all of that Tees Valley Combined Authority plans for MME, the only thing that seems to have gone ahead is the housing planning for the North side. Oh! yes and giving Peel another half million pounds a year for four years. The rest is a load of long words which does not mean anything.

[mcginty1]

'Local councils invest in infrastructure everyday to promote growth and jobs in their area, which is what this document is about. Note Peel will be matching or exceeding any investment from the LA's.'

Peel bought the airport for the price of a detached house in Wynyard.
In return they said they would invest £20million? Not keep applying for grants and coming back for financial assistance? Thats why people are miffed off, because they know Peel have got the local authorities by the short and curlies, and they are now starting to squeeze


'01475 is right about any London route. To where, by whom? '

To where? London.
By who? I don't know Im not in charge. Yes the trains only take 150 minutes as they did when Bmi ran the service to Heathrow.

'Ryanair don't run away from gold mines'

Really , check it out when they left and why

'Globespan stepped into bmiBaby's shoes after they left because they couldn't make money'

BmiBaby couldnt make money because they were flying to places like Newquay??

'Their flights may have been full but nobody stepped in to replace them - must tell us something'.

Yes it does. Peel don't want anyone operating. Thats why they kicked Thomson out.

[01475]

These conspiracy theory style posts are ridiculous, and alarming.

This thread is starting to make less sense than the Manston ones did!

[Beafer]

News of the councillors secret meeting after the councils own scrutiny committee revealed the details of the verbal agreement where certain members wanted to give Peel millions.

Social media posts about the verbal agreement by the Labour councillors says that they were planning to give Peel £4m, and not the initial £2m.
Press news.
Council leaders criticised over £2m 'secret' deal for Durham Tees Valley Airport | The Northern Echo (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/16038829.Council_leaders_criticised_over___2m__secret__deal_ for_airport/)

[SWBKCB]

You might want to go back and read the document linked at post 577 - it looks like a well written document which covers both sides without this knockabout stuff.

[No-More-Bullschit]

These conspiracy theory style posts are ridiculous, and alarming.

This thread is starting to make less sense than the Manston ones did!

Yes, the last thing the thread needed was another spammer, it's not even the conspiracy theory stuff that bothers me, it's the way they seem to be itching for the conspiracy theory to be true!

[SWBKCB]

People seem to forget that the north east is a low income, low growth area, so no major investment is going to happen without public assistance.

Do you think Nissan chose Sunderland for the views?

[01475]

The airport that can most be compared to Teesside right now is Prestwick, which is also a marginal airport in a deprived area close to other airports in more prosperous areas. There the holiday flights are still running, but are effectively getting millions of pounds a year in public subsidy. Unlike Ayrshire Teesside does still have industry, so it does have regular business flights.

The next valid comparator would then be Blackpool...

This just isn't a good time to be running that kind of marginal airport.

[Robert-Ryan]

Do you think Nissan chose Sunderland for the views?
There's an irony, there were plenty of places in Sunderland Nissan could have built their factory other than on the perfectly good airfield!

Reference the conspiracy theorist trolls, not that they'll care but people need to respect the fact it's people's jobs and livelihoods at stake

[Beafer]

From where I am sitting reading the different posts, there doesn't seem to be a conspiracy theory of whats been going on, its all starting to come out in documents which councillors have been agreeing to. :ugh:

Peel promised £20m investment. I have seen no proof of that investment just lots of payments to other Peel companies out of the DTVA accounts such as payments for ATC services.

Peel are worth billions of pounds, and the owner Whittaker is worth billions. No public money should be paid to either when they got the airport so cheap. They are the majority owner, let them put £4m in.

One point people seem to be skirting around and the press haven't asked during the Hough interview is what are the financial criteria which Hough said would be the deciding factor after 5 years.
Robert may have those figures, but no mention of the details?

Question, if the airport is still losing the so called £2m a year will Peel close it, or give it another 5 years when the break point is due?

[Robert-Ryan]

Beafer, how's about you learn to read because all of this has been covered previously, if you don't like the answer hard luck I'm afraid

Peel promised £20m investment. I have seen no proof of that investment just lots of payments to other Peel companies out of the DTVA accounts such as payments for ATC services.
Covering the losses over the years has probably meant they've spent twice £20m, now it does not matter if you do not consider that investment, it does not matter if I do not consider that investment, it does not matter if SWBKCB, N707ZS, MacGinty or whoever else does not consider that as investment, Peel does, and it seems to be recognised by the business community and Government therefore it stands.

Peel are worth billions of pounds, and the owner Whittaker is worth billions. No public money should be paid to either when they got the airport so cheap. They are the majority owner, let them put £4m in.
For the third time of mentioning, if it was as straight forward and ridiculous -looking as what the press make it out to be, Peel would't ask for it, they are smarter than that. Besides, even if they are trying their luck, doesn't everyone do that during our everyday lives? We all love something for nothing if it's on the table!

One point people seem to be skirting around and the press haven't asked during the Hough interview is what are the financial criteria which Hough said would be the deciding factor after 5 years.
Robert may have those figures, but no mention of the details?

Question, if the airport is still losing the so called £2m a year will Peel close it, or give it another 5 years when the break point is due?
As someone else said, how many other airports of our kind are guaranteeing to still be open next week? Peel are being generous, and the likelihood is they won't close at the end of the five years anyway, A) because of the :mad: storm it would cause and B) why close for such a weak excuse when they've had a couple of strong opportunities in the past?

[highwideandugly]

Common on Beafer..you are almost comparing PEEL to an organisation such as Carillion?

[Hipennine]

Why is it that when Beafer points fingers at councillors, many airport supporters rush to defend Peel?

Peel is a business and will seek to optimise revenue streams, whether its from operational activities or government funding.

The big questions are about the response of the DTV shareholding councils (as keeper of the public purse - ie my money) to this business activity.

[SWBKCB]

The big questions are about the response of the DTV shareholding councils (as keeper of the public purse - ie my money) to this business activity.

Probably because he points fingers with no evidence and little understanding.

[Robert-Ryan]

Hipennine, it's not so much about suppressing Beafer and the likes, your second paragraph answers your own question to some degree. It's also that we're sick of repeating ourselves, as I am now by listing these reasons! The main one is the lack of ability to listen to reason, and the 'I'm right everyone else is wrong' attitude.

[Beafer]

A few facts from the Peel spokesman Robert Hough to make it clearer for the Peel supporters on here.
This announcement by Peel was made in June 2016. That is the time the clock started toward the 5 year break point where Peel will decide what they do next?
The 5 year break point will be June 2021 according to the date of the interview.

What I haven't seen from the Peel supporters on here is any publication which shows the details of what the financial criteria will be which Hough refers to ??
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/business/business-news/qa-durham-tees-valley-airport-11522602

A short section of Mr Houghs public comments in June 2016. QUOTE:
"Secondly, there is an agreement we have entered into with the local authorities which is a framework under which we will give assurances for the future to keep open the airport for a period of 10 years with a break at five years or thereafter in the event of certain financial criteria not being met.

To do that, it is very rare for an airport operator particularly in a smaller regional airport to guarantee continuity for any period of time. These breaks provide options.
We can take certain decisions then to reduce the scale, or we could take the decision to close if those criteria were not being met.
These breaks are right. If the worst came to the worst and those financial criteria were not being met there would be options.

No one’s saying if those weren’t met in five years time, the airport would be automatically downgraded or closed but what we have to do as a sensible investor giving five or 10 year commitments is to say if the worst came to the worst we would have certain rights." End quote.

So back to my question, what is the financial criteria which Peel are talking about? Can the Peel supporters on here ask Mr Hough? Or maybe the COUNCILLORS can tell the press as those councillors want to give Peel millions of pounds from the public, which will come out of our council tax increases.

[SWBKCB]

So back to my question, what is the financial criteria which Peel are talking about?

Why do you think this should be published? It's a commercial consideration between Peel and the airport shareholders. Effectively, it's like the old saying, when do you stop chucking good money after bad?

Keeping it simple, making it public would be like a football club telling everybody how much their transfer budget is.

[Robert-Ryan]

Beafer, you've made naff all "clearer to the supporters on here", it's not the supporters business to answer questions like that!

[oldart]

Some people would argue that demand was there and the airport was run down to a point where the holiday flights went. How do you respond to that?
Quote from Mr Hough:-
That is categorically wrong. We would certainly always follow opportunities from an airline wishing to engage with this airport.

The demand fell and therefore the airlines felt unable to continue with those routes.

Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't the airport turn away TUI and Balkan holidays.

[onion]

Demand is there, the problem lies with how do you service that demand.
I ll take 3 routes.
Teesside - Dublin.
In the early days this service was operated by a 737-200 and was attracting enough for Ryan to go upto 10 flights a week if I remember correctly. Once though the 800 came on the route there wasn't the demand for as many flights as pax loads on the flight were in the 100 to 120 per flight not enough for a 800!
MME-LHR. It wasn't that long ago that 20000 a month used the service. Then BMI started to chop and change the route, timings, frequency and aircraft. They manufactured a situation to get to a point where they could cut the route.
MME -BRU, Eastern flew this route but it wasn't really any good for the business traveller, again timings were wrong.

What I am trying to say is actually demand is there it is a case of matching operators/aircraft/frequency/timings to routes.
Now the airport has to take some responsibility in this. As if a airline serves a route and gets it wrong them bad publicity follows.

Peel have also made a rod for their own back here or as I see it they are manufacturing a situation to get the land.

What business would get into bed with MME/Peel knowing that they may close the place after 5 years? Who comes out and says that if you a service provider?
Why would you set up routes knowing Peels track record with TUI and Balkans?
Now look at the possibility of the FRA contract being lost too as the RAF/RN are in the process of changing their training contracts and all of a sudden 5 years could be all that is left!

[M-JCS]

What services do any of you see as highly desirable from MME? Airport proponents, not just here, have said the demand is there, but the question is, demand for what? And I'm not talking about charter services to holiday destinations. My question relates to services that could be seen to be essential to the local economy, and services that may have been proven in the past or that you think there is otherwise enough demand for to be feasible now. I'm not interested in scoring points one way or another, but in gaining a bit of insight.

[No-More-Bullschit]

At the moment I'm more worried about the Stobart Air takeover of Flybe, Eastern are going to have to pull something very special out of the hat to save themselves, and under Stobart ownership would Flybe step onto our ABZ route if they fail, or would they seize the opportunity to launch it from Carlisle instead? Seems Highwide might be right afterall and we could end up with just KLM :uhoh:

[GrahamK]

There is perhaps 3 people a day travel between Carlisle and Aberdeen. T3/RE/BE are more likely to consolidate at NCL if anything

[highwideandugly]

NMB. Wouldn’t worry about Carlisle..no markets at all from there!

[SWBKCB]

Blimey, lets go looking for things to worry about!

In answer to the original OP, assuming LHR is out of the question, I would have thought a DUB connection, preferably with an EI codeshare, would be top of the list to give easier connections to the US than via AMS.

Any other European hub is a double edged sword - would the competition cause KLM to up their game or retreat?

[Richard Taylor]

Having followed this thread for a while, to be honest I wouldn't worry too much about the loss of the ABZ route if it happened. The halcyon days of the oil industry have gone, and numbers will never get back to where they were as the N Sea oil industry ages. All the east coast routes to ABZ are in the same sinking boat anyway, even with just the one operator (I'm afraid the LM/T3 spat was more about trying to get one up on the other than a genuine need for competition).

I could see a return to the Air UK days, ie. when an operator consolidated the route - so for MME, I could see T3 doing what Air UK did, and route NWI-MME-ABZ for example.

I think you should concentrate efforts on keeping KLM on the AMS run, and perhaps (if LHR ever gets a 3rd runway, which is debateable) a link to LHR restored.

[highwideandugly]

Hope the guys at DTV and FODTV. Have the snow ploughs,de-icer etc. Ready..could be a fun and expensive week for all!

[highwideandugly]

Richard..who knows..you may be right about ABZ. I bow to your superior local knowledge about the oil industry.
However what is worrying is..if DTV are left with a KLM service only..and that’s reducing by 33% at times. FR. possibly reviewing contracts...what future has DTV. Really got ?.

Housing anyone?

[Buster the Bear]

We all can dream.....

http://i64.tinypic.com/2v2w3e9.jpg

[N707ZS]

Polar. The 707 and Bandit never existed just a couple of Viscounts.
There was another outfit that had an office in hangar 1 complete with model DHC-8 in full livery but nothing ever happened.

[highwideandugly]

What a terrible day for DTV ,flight cancellation and weather...hope it improves,but forecast suggests not!, Even the stalwarts of FODTV. Can’t clear this white stuff fast enough...now maybe if PEEL. Had more resources available .it might just help?

[N707ZS]

Heard the head fell off of the airports brush! even though most of it had melted by 12am. Doncaster has great new equipment. Something else the mayor would have to consider in his budget.

[Robert-Ryan]

Not only is the level of equipment appropriate, but we have more this year than previously despite even the most basic equipment not being justified in recent years. I wondered how long it would be before highwide made that post, with the undercurrent of accusation...

[JollyTraveller]

I see erection of the steel work for the light industrial / storage units complete with offices has started on North Side business park area. Any news on the other planned developments for Durham Tees Valley Airport area?

[SWBKCB]

with the undercurrent of accusation...

Undercurrent? :O

I see erection of the steel work for the light industrial / storage units complete with offices has started on North Side business park area

Can somebody remind me where this is?

[JollyTraveller]

Undercurrent? :O



Can somebody remind me where this is? The Business park at Durham Tees Valley Airport. The land currently been developed is the land adjoining Technology House. https://binged.it/2GQR2ii

[N707ZS]

Looks like a show room. Wondered if it was going to be the new camper van location as the old one is in the housing area.

Sure someone must know what's on the planning application.

[jetstar.8]

out line planning has been approved for up to 55 houses on land at Lancaster house at DTVA
see DBC planning aplications search facility

[JollyTraveller]

The current development has planning for 5 light industrial/storage units and offices. search using Application Ref No. 17/00049/FUL (This is the mean application). 17/00774/FUL (This is the variation of Condition 2). 18/00145/NMA (This is the non material amendment of planning permission). Planning Search (http://msp.darlington.gov.uk/Planning/lg/plansearch.page?org.apache.shale.dialog.DIALOG_NAME=gfplanni ngsearch&Param=lg.Planning)

[highwideandugly]

RR. There’s no undercurrent..it’s there for all to see.sorry.

The staff on the coal face are doing an amazing job..brush heads excepting..all I am saying is that PEEL mean and provide what they promise and give the guys the tools...2 movements today...

[Robert-Ryan]

But it's not there for all to see is it? You're suggesting Peel should invest in Scandinavian-levels of snow clearing equipment for two weeks of the year! Even then it's only two weeks this year, the last three of four years has been about two or three days, it's just not justifiable. Many other airports having similar problems, it's not like we're closed and everywhere else is open!

[JollyTraveller]

Other larger airports have been snow closed for part of today. Maybe it was in interest of the airlines and the airport for it to be snow closed for most of today.


How many snow & ice clearing equipment / vehicles does DTVA currently have?
I'm sure DTVA has had some new snow & ice clearing equipment / vehicles since these photos from 2010. BBC - In pictures: Airport reopens (http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/tees/hi/tv_and_radio/newsid_8446000/8446011.stm)

[N707ZS]

In days of old the airport used to put a night team in with around four tractors up and down the runway. Now they just come in at 5.00am ish and have to start from scratch. Don't know how big the wage bill would be compared to loss of flights. The wind was drifting the snow today.

[SWBKCB]

Maybe it was in interest of the airlines and the airport for it to be snow closed for most of today.

What do you mean by this?

[P330]

Looks like the airport has been closed so far today.

KLM have cancelled all flights into MME until the 1533 on Saturday. So, even if they get the field open Friday, it's going to be another quiet one.

[highwideandugly]

Phew..has a 48/72 period ever been as bad at DTV ? Massive impact on flights and income
2 flights in 48 hours so far...get that brush head fixed!!.

Not sure how tomorrow will Pan out....but not good for figures!!
Spring is coming...

[No-More-Bullschit]

Cannot be helped unfortunately

[N707ZS]

Went to the office this morning for a couple of hours it was arctic, snow drifts with blowing snow only to find out the courier had took the day off! Lets see what happens tomorrow. On the subject of KLM is Amsterdam getting the same weather?

[Lancelot37]

Presume you have permission to re-use that photo from the photographer, some have sued for a few quid! If he is coming that is good building plans/building buildings is what we want.

He could offer them 30 bob

[SWBKCB]

So how does today's Carlisle announcement stack up with this comment?

Loganair commercial director Kay Ryan said:

“The growth in passenger numbers has been strong, however changes within our aircraft fleet from the middle of March meant we would have had to lease-in another aircraft to continue operating the service."


https://www.loganair.co.uk/closure-durham-tees-valley-aberdeen-route/

[Flightrider]

It probably means if they are now doing anything new, they will need to lease in an aircraft to do it. Surely not rocket science?

[Robert-Ryan]

I think what he means is if they can lease an aircraft for Carlisle why can't they lease one for us!? They're starting Southend and Dublin as well. Embarrassing...we've been poached!

[mmeteesside]

If only they'd be open and honest and say it like it is (Flybe/Eastern stopped competing), but instead they come up with a reason that they know the public (& press) will buy. Simple really.

[Planespeaking]

I think what he means is if they can lease an aircraft for Carlisle why can't they lease one for us!? They're starting Southend and Dublin as well. Embarrassing...we've been poached!

The problem is you don't get poachers if there is nothing fat and juicy to steal. It seems that Teeside has only two real scheduled destinations, one of which is oil related and the oil boom is long gone. If there is a good catchment area with commercial demand then the airlines will come, however a bit like Manston, if there is insufficient demand they won't. Business is business.

[SWBKCB]

If only they'd be open and honest and say it like it is (Flybe/Eastern stopped competing), but instead they come up with a reason that they know the public (& press) will buy. Simple really.

Spot on - the a/c availability reasoning always looked 'suspect'. :suspect:

[Beafer]

Word in the area is the land which is for sale on the south side doesn't seem to be attracting much interest according to airport staff. Nobody seen looking at the site.
How is the Master Plan doing? Not much in the press these days?
35 acres anyone?
Land for sale in Aero Centre Tees Valley, Durham Tees Valley Airport, Tees Valley, Darlington, County Durham, DL2, DL2 (http://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-for-sale/property-69653270.html)

[SWBKCB]

Word in the area is the land which is for sale on the south side doesn't seem to be attracting much interest according to airport staff. Nobody seen looking at the site.


Presumably waiting for the re-zoning?

[highwideandugly]

Gazumped is the word...makes you think..were the incentives for Loganair better from CAX. With their extra outside help!, than was available from DTV ? Call me paranoid....But maybe the mayor could have a look before he commits public funds..maybe he could obtain some incentives?

My next worry is the state of Eastern..other threads not good..maybe KLM could do a link !

[N707ZS]

Perhaps the Mayor of Carlisle has chucked £500k to get the flights, lets see how long it lasts.

[No-More-Bullschit]

Are those CAX routes what was awarded by the regional growth fund?

[SWBKCB]

Are those CAX routes what was awarded by the regional growth fund?

Yes - though to Stobart Air, not Loganair.

[No-More-Bullschit]

Didn't think they were awarded to a specific carrier? Last I heard they had the routes with no-one to fly them

[SWBKCB]

Didn't think they were awarded to a specific carrier? Last I heard they had the routes with no-one to fly them

No - the funding is awarded to the airline, and Stobart Air was named in the announcement for these routes.

[engineno9]

Carlisle Airport is owned and operated by Stobart Air as far as I know, so it may be that the funding was awarded to them in order to create the requisite airport infrastructure rather than to operate those flights themselves. A new terminal building is currently under construction and both the E/W and N/S runways at EGNC are currently being worked on. Hence the aerodrome is closed to all but helicopter traffic until May.

[ifu05596]

I think what he means is if they can lease an aircraft for Carlisle why can't they lease one for us!? They're starting Southend and Dublin as well. Embarrassing...we've been poached!

Presumably the projected loads/yields at CAX will cover the cost whereas not here. Wouldn’t expect a co with shareholders to subsidise if t wasn’t paying its way

[highwideandugly]

Asking a question which I know us on the ground floor don’t know the answer to...but why are no passenger/movement figures available yet for January on the CAA website? LPL,DSA AND DTV..common denominator being PEEL?? Majority of other airports available...

[No-More-Bullschit]

There are several not yet available not just Peel, they seem to release them in two batches and we are consistently in the second set

[Scottie Dog]

And, although this is off topic, the CAA has been more and more tardy in the updating of their data. There was a change to their process a year, or more, ago which was suppose to make things not efficient but it appears to have gone the other way. Hopefully an update might be made tomorrow - but there again "tomorrow never comes".

[N707ZS]

I see there is an A330 Voyager due today thanks to the movement site, so the ability to work big planes must still be in place.

[NorthSouth]

DTVA AIP entry says fire cover up to and including Category 8 available with prior notice. A330-200 is a Cat 8. A330-300 is a Cat 9. But A330 tankers with much reduced pax capacity, operating with the military, no doubt have different provisions.

[jensdad]

Just been looking through some of my old photos including some from Teesside (BMA and Adria DC9s, Air Ecosse SH3s etc).
Stating the flippin' obvious here, but it's amazing that a conurbation the size of Teesside - and the prosperous bit of Yorkshire that's closer to MME than to LBA - can't seemingly entice someone to have a punt at BFS, DUB and LON these days while Carlisle can. I know that it remains to be seen how sustainable CAX's new services are but still, very sad.

[N707ZS]

Used to be CAT 9 available with prior notice.

[01475]

CAX is a very special case! Maybe if Peel set up an airline, ...

If it was possible to operate flights to LHR I'm sure someone would be doing it, but I think it would have to be Heathrow as the train is now sufficiently competitive that operating to a London airport without lots of connecting traffic clearly wouldn't cut it.

Could BFS and DUB work? I suspect that in market organised differently they could. I feel like there's a little bit of market failure in regional air services in the UK (eg where a link like LDY - LON with clear demand can become a PSO). It's a real shame about Loganair burying the hatchet with Eastern - I really thought they might be the ones to try them!

However on the one hand the only way our regional air services could work better would be if there was an airline with many bases around the UK that was flying a range of sizes of aircraft and able to market efficiently (without worrying about marketing so well that someone would come along with a bigger aircraft and took the route off them).

But on the other hand DTV would only be served in a competitive market, because any airline that operates from a destination to NCL, LBA and DSA (and EMA) is going to see if they can get off with carrying the same number of passengers as they would if they also served MME (and HUY).

And that brings me round to the depressing conclusion; who would operate BFS or DUB? FlyBe and AerLingus (and / or Stobart) could, have bases in the right places, have the right sizes of aircraft, and serve the right types of market. But why would the bother? They're probably already carrying all the people that would book a flight to Belfast or Dublin with them :-( BMI or Eastern could in theory, but it wouldn't be a good fit with their existing networks or markets.

I would say the future carries on looking grim. Unless Stobart buy it for a distribution depot...

[jensdad]

I agree that Loganair were the big hope. I suspect they might be back. I doubt Eastern/Flybe will try Belfast as it'll eat into their NCL-BHD service. Personally I reckon MME's aforementioned catchment area could surely sustain a weekend service to DUB on Ryanair.
Think I've said it before on here, but the demographic that used Globespan, BMIBaby, and a service to the Dominican Republic when NCL didn't have one, hasn't gone anywhere.


Just thinking aloud here...

[01475]

In one sense they haven't gone anywhere, but in the other sense they've gone to Newcastle and the train station.

The real killer for the airport is the lack of a London service. If they had that then it would be worthwhile having the airport already staffed for all the above.

But I can't see it coming back :-(

[SWBKCB]

The real killer for the airport is the lack of a London service. If they had that then it would be worthwhile having the airport already staffed for all the above.


Would a London service be for "London" or for onward connections? If the latter, how is it different/better than KLM, and what would be the impact on them? KLM already use their smallest a/c on the minimum practicable schedule.

[M-JCS]

" who would operate BFS or DUB? FlyBe and AerLingus (and / or Stobart) could, have bases in the right places, have the right sizes of aircraft, and serve the right types of market."

But do they really have the right sizes of aircraft? Serious question.
In this age of "bigger is better" is a 70 seater really the smallest feasible aircraft to operate? It seems to me that this is what has left regional airports in a shambles, and I am not convinced passengers are really better off because of it. This obviously applies not just to DTV.

[highwideandugly]

Oh well,back to square one.

Loganair finishes today which means DTV Aberdeen services back in the capable hands of Eastern.Free to mess around as they wish.

The much heralded Super Break charters down to only 2.
KLM reducing over the summer to two a day.

Back to square one..eh ...actually minus 1 !

[01475]

Would a London service be for "London" or for onward connections? If the latter, how is it different/better than KLM, and what would be the impact on them? KLM already use their smallest a/c on the minimum practicable schedule.

I would suggest it would have to be for both in order to work? (And that this is why none of the London and "London" airports that an operator could get into would work :-( ) Even if the impact on KLM was negative, I'd suggest that as there would be more people going to London itself rather than Amsterdam itself, the number of movements and passengers would increase overall, to the benefit of the airport.

But do they really have the right sizes of aircraft? Serious question.
In this age of "bigger is better" is a 70 seater really the smallest feasible aircraft to operate? It seems to me that this is what has left regional airports in a shambles, and I am not convinced passengers are really better off because of it. This obviously applies not just to DTV.

True. And passengers definitely lose. The problem is that because there is no regional operator with a range of sizes of aircraft there is a terrible disincentive to try a route that could physically be operated with a bigger aircraft. In the absence of transfer fees why grow a route just so someone with bigger aircraft can come and take it over (and possibly then keep it or even not keep it, depending on how they feel)? :-(

I definitely feel there is a market failure. It appeared that the main problems CityManxWing2 and LinksAir had were that they lacked the economies of scale required to, in the technical sense, be respectable operators of aircraft. It appeared that certainly there can be routes to Blackpool and Gloucester that are otherwise very much viable, but that there is nobody to operate and that would need to be part of a larger operator & network for the purposes of operating & marketing organisation (and I'm sure that DTV, Oxford, Cambridge and Shoreham could be the same). This is quite a shame :-(

[skyman771]

I personally think you can go on & on all day about markets, route to London, etc, but I feel it's all too complicated. It is in reality just a vicious circle if you have a large airport with many services & excellent access and passenger facilities then this will in itself attract more airlines & services & so it goes on, one feeds the other.
The economics of such a set up involve large volumes that facilitate the addition & improvements necessary to maintain & grow. This in turn makes airlines happy & attracts more pax. & more routes....
Until you can invest & grow such a model & reap the benefits of "volume" then you ain't going to get anywhere fast. In DTV's case then Peel clearly don't see this as a viable business model, when as it would appear they can simply access land and build whatever to support the local economic structure.
From a “non” aviation enthusiasts ( and there are many !) view, then this concept is itself not a bad thing. i.e. grow the local economy , increase it's wealth and the ability / affordability of it's residents to travel, with no specific agenda to seek out a local airport.
You can put any pax service into DTV, address the costs of doing so & hope the pax will turn up. But on a small scale operation doubtful they will in sufficient numbers as greater attractions elsewhere. History unfortunately counts for nothing, "we used to fly to London "x" times a day, so what ?
With efficient transport infra structure, once one has accepted that they have to travel to an airport at all, then the additional hour on road becomes less material & in that time c. 40 miles of travel create a much larger catchment area for the competition.
Unfortunately I can't see an answer on where to go next, the only way I see any way at all that DTV will ever "rise from the ashes" is not through the chasing of low volume low frequency UK destinations, is if they can place themselves in a position to attract and support a significantly sized lowco operator.
Unfortunately it is difficult to ascertain who is the more disinterested in pursuing and investing in such a project, Peel, or the Lowco's themselves...

[highwideandugly]

Welcome back Skyman with an excellent view...

The NE is a strange area...not much inbound tourism...and I don’t know why...not much in the way of major industrial players..and most of those are on Teeside...and not a major population feed...so...what is the answer?

Me thinks..please don’t shout..but pax should be concentrated on NCL.Its well established and accepted.

DTV. The ancillary business...maintenance,painting,freight and private. NCL don’t seem too interested in that business.

Working together two airports could succeed?
Without I fear for one of the NE airports..

[01475]

Unfortunately it is difficult to ascertain who is the more disinterested in pursuing and investing in such a project, Peel, or the Lowco's themselves...

Locos went to places like DTV in the days when places like NCL didn't realise that this was going to be the future and that they were going to have to bend over backwards to accommodate them :-(

[Jamesair]

Well reasoned arguments ...Skyman and highwide

[skyman771]

[quote=01475;10086400]Locos went to places like DTV in the days when places like ........../quote]

As said history counts for nothing.....If looking forward, then it's completely irrelevant as to the situation back then that brought about the demise of Lowco operations at DTV...I'm sure someone could write a book about the characters decisions & mismanagement, it wasn't all down to the Lowco's, "it takes takes two to tango" as they say !
Now it's all about the money, and the fundamental question is whether DTV is an investible option & there would appear to be no one out there that believes that it is.:uhoh:

[EGPO]

Welcome back Skyman with an excellent view...

The NE is a strange area...not much inbound tourism...and I don’t know why...not much in the way of major industrial players..and most of those are on Teeside...and not a major population feed...so...what is the answer?

Me thinks..please don’t shout..but pax should be concentrated on NCL.Its well established and accepted.

DTV. The ancillary business...maintenance,painting,freight and private. NCL don’t seem too interested in that business.

Working together two airports could succeed?
Without I fear for one of the NE airports..

Then if there is no inbound Tourism that's the fault of the region and tourist boards.
Rember you have the stuff Inning North York Moors , Whitby famous for the Dracula books being written there.
It's stunning abbey plus Durham a Cathedral city ideal for history buff tourists . Ditto York .
All not far by train or bus from DTV.
They need to do something soon or KLM may upsticks and do a Ryanair take their aircraft to another peel airport .
( Perhaps DSA ) . Seems the falling pax numbers are a self for filling prophecy they read in the media how terrible it is and probably more expensive so decide to take a long drive to Leeds Newcastleaybe even Doncaster .
For now their only hope is to return to ' bucket and spade and Eastern Europe ' , and as someone send try tempt a loco.plus perhaps get more Domestic services .
Maybe when CAX opens not a vast distance from them they need to try compete by serving Dublin Maybe Stansted and Belfast plus IOM.
And Season Southampton to meet the Cruise flights .
Try attract freight again .
Flatten the rail halt rebuild it where it will get used.
And they might not face closure .
As I hate to say it but now another Airport with more offerings already is opening a distance that's about 2 hours drive then I can't see them lasting the year .
If KLM go Eastern will too.
Where they would redepoly - who knows .
It's a terrible situation for all concerned and that region.

[Robert-Ryan]

Well reasoned arguments ...Skyman and highwide

Yes that's what we like! I don't agree with all of it but take note people that's what negativity should look like.

Regarding the 'Eastern introducting Embraers' rumour from earlier in the thread:- Flybes booking engine does not specify aircraft types but it does display a warning about limited baggage space on Jetstream 41 aircraft...that warning disappears after March 25th which is the start of the summer timetables; there is also one less rotation per day which would make sense if a larger aircraft is being introduced. Don't forget also Eastern added a 4th E145 to their fleet recently as well. No sign of the rumoured Dublin rotation in between flights but there is plenty of space for it (plus if this was just a response to competition from Loganair you'd expect they would have abandoned the change upon learning of their exit from the route). Journey time remains 1hr same as with the Jetstream, obviously you would expect a decrease with jet equipment but this is the only inconsistency.

All speculation of course, so make of it what you will.

[JollyTraveller]

Oh well,back to square one.

Loganair finishes today which means DTV Aberdeen services back in the capable hands of Eastern.Free to mess around as they wish.

The much heralded Super Break charters down to only 2.
KLM reducing over the summer to two a day.

Back to square one..eh ...actually minus 1 ! Where did you get this information about the Super Break charters being cancelled? I thought there had already been on sale and some had already sold out.

[WilliumMate]

Maybe when CAX opens not a vast distance from them they need to try compete by serving Dublin Maybe Stansted and Belfast plus IOM.


From Middlesborough to CAX is 94 miles and the best part of two hours driving and you pass within 6 miles of NCL. To get to NCL and LBA it is roughly 50 and 60 miles respectively and a little over an hour driving.

[SWBKCB]

re Super Breaks, it was on DTVM yesterday that only Seville and Madeira would operate this year. On a related note, reported on Londonderry thread that their Seville flt departed with 59 pax this week, so may not just be a MME thing.

[JollyTraveller]

Didn't Durham Tees Valley - Dublin route get around 80,000 passengers per year?


If Carlisle airport & Stobart/Loganair can make that work with a Saab 340, I'm sure someone could make that route work from Durham Tees Valley with a larger passenger catchment base meaning the larger aircraft would be more viable.


Lets say Flybe/Eastern airways used a Saab 2000 and fitted in 10 - 12 return flights per week around the Aberdeen schedule flights. Those type operations could carry 50,000-60,000 passengers per year on a Durham Tees Valley - Dublin route.

[JollyTraveller]

re Super Breaks, it was on DTVM yesterday that only Seville and Madeira would operate this year. On a related note, reported on Londonderry thread that their Seville flt departed with 59 pax this week, so may not just be a MME thing.
Was that not after the news was posted on Save Teesside airport facebook group page?

From what I can see from Superbreaks the flights have been on sale and sold.
I can't see anything that confirms that these charter package breaks have been cancelled.

[WilliumMate]

Dublin could and should work. A tie in with Aer Lingus, perhaps pushing the trans-atlantic route with the benefits of clearing US immigration before flying.

Pains me to see DTV in the situation it is. Used it frequently in the late 70s/early 80s to and from LHR. Standby tickets at £25 and never not managed to get on the early afternoon flight on a Friday. IIRC full fare was £50 back then, the same as Stobart are charging CAX-SEN later this year?

[Cautious Optimist]

Fairs Lloyd Travel told FODTVA about the Super Break cancellations

[JollyTraveller]

Fairs Lloyd Travel told FODTVA about the Super Break cancellations
I have not seen anything on the FODTVA pages about Superbreak cancelling all these charter package breaks.


So have Superbreak cancelled all these charter package breaks including ones at all other UK airports?


I thought most of the Durham Tees Valley charter package breaks had already sold out. The Gibraltar package break is still yet to be confirmed by Superbreak at any UK airport.

[N707ZS]

Lets say Flybe/Eastern airways used a Saab 2000 and fitted in 10 - 12 return flights per week around the Aberdeen schedule flights. Those type operations could carry 50,000-60,000 passengers per year on a Durham Tees Valley - Dublin route.

But Joe public only want to pay £2.50 and free return for a flight to Dublin.

[canberra97]

I have not seen anything on the FODTVA pages about Superbreak cancelling all these charter package breaks.


So have Superbreak cancelled all these charter package breaks including ones at all other UK airports?


I thought most of the Durham Tees Valley charter package breaks had already sold out. The Gibraltar package break is still yet to be confirmed by Superbreak at any UK airport.

Your obviously not accepting the fact what others are trying to tell you that Superbreak have cancelled the majority of there departures from Teesside but have you not even bothered to check the Superbreak website to see for yourself if you had your notice that what others are telling you is the truth, only two departures from Teesside to Madeira and Seville, I even called Superbreak before I made this post to confirm it.

PR stuff will always say such things as selling fast or sold out, it means nothing just like DFS furniture sales, ''sale MUST end on Monday while stocks last''!

[SWBKCB]

re Super Breaks - wonder if it is anything to do with the recent shenanigans with the Mayor, Peel and TVCA about funding for flight support, or was that for 2019?

[canberra97]

Re Superbreak

It's not just Teesside other departure airports have also seen cutbacks to their flights by Superbreak, it's nothing new as the company is renowned for putting up a full flying program but they never actually fulfill it, who actually books with this company for their foreign holidays other than their long established UK holiday program that actually has a good reputation within the travel industry.

[highwideandugly]

Probably as much to do with the Teesside public’s apathy!
Do they actually want an airport? Plenty of rhetoric but no substance..ie booking
Well publicised ,use the airport(routes) or lose it.

This year like previous not going to be good..next year? Who knows....PEEL are obviously watching very closely as the inward flow of aviation revenue decreases rapidly..

[N707ZS]

This year like previous not going to be good..next year? Who knows....PEEL are obviously watching very closely as the inward flow of aviation revenue decreases rapidly..

How do you know it decreasing? VIP flights and even military this week.

[highwideandugly]

Talking about the next few months really..In general...half Aberdeen flights,less. Amsterdam’s flights..and thats without the many cancelled so far this year...Super Break disappointment.Along with that goes fuel sales,passenger tax reduction,shop spend etc.

Half a dozen biz jets and one A330 isn’t much of a replacement?

It’s an observation for which I’m not sure of the answer??

[Cautious Optimist]

I have not seen anything on the FODTVA pages about Superbreak cancelling all these charter package breaks.
They're waiting to find out the reason, if it's country wide or just DTVA and if they're outright cancelled or just postponed, I'm willing to bet it's wider cancellations due to reasons at Super Breaks end. Above all else, they're not going to shout about bad news needlessly are they.

re Super Breaks - wonder if it is anything to do with the recent shenanigans with the Mayor, Peel and TVCA about funding for flight support, or was that for 2019?
The Mayor is definitely causing setbacks and (my opinion only) I have little doubt that positive developments have fallen through because of his interference. The funding I believe is for 2019.

[SWBKCB]

The Mayor is definitely causing setbacks and (my opinion only) I have little doubt that positive developments have fallen through because of his interference. The funding I believe is for 2019.

I agree the Mayor's not helping but given the amounts being talked about, I think that the problems are of Peel's on making and demonstrates a lack of confidence on their part. Would seem to suggest that they think the opportunities on offer are marginal, if they need the council support.

[SWBKCB]

Direct trains from Middlesbrough won't help the case for a London route

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/how-direct-trains-london-transform-14422165

[N707ZS]

Grand Central have been running trains for years locally to London but not from Middlesbrough.

[WilliumMate]

Direct trains from Middlesbrough won't help the case for a London route

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/how-direct-trains-london-transform-14422165

It goes without saying that the Virgin Trains East Coast services will have a transformative effect on the town in terms of the train connections provided.

How VTEC can promise this when they will be handing the keys back very shortly is puzzling. Maybe the incoming franchisee or the governments bail out arm will run with it, or maybe not.

[01475]

The TOCs have remarkably little say in what they run (which makes a particular mockery of the suggestion that it was open to VTEC to make changes that meant it could start paying billions for running the franchise).

Middlesbrough will have six trains a day leaving King's Cross between 0700 and 2000, as this is what the train service requirement says it is to have!

[JollyTraveller]

Your obviously not accepting the fact what others are trying to tell you that Superbreak have cancelled the majority of there departures from Teesside but have you not even bothered to check the Superbreak website to see for yourself if you had your notice that what others are telling you is the truth, only two departures from Teesside to Madeira and Seville, I even called Superbreak before I made this post to confirm it.

PR stuff will always say such things as selling fast or sold out, it means nothing just like DFS furniture sales, ''sale MUST end on Monday while stocks last''!
I had been checking the Superbreak website and noticed different package breaks listing appeared to removed at different times and I assumed that because the package breaks had sold out. i.e. Durham Tees Valley - Seville: Authentic Andalucía deal was only removed last week. yet others most others had been removed a long time ago. If Superbreak have cancelled package breaks it must be UK wide because package breaks have been removed for next few months from section of the website. Flights and Hotel Deals | Cheap Hotel and Flight Packages | SuperBreak (http://www.superbreak.com/flight-hotel-packages)

[JollyTraveller]

Superbreak confirmed the following short breaks from Durham Tees Valley Airport
and all have been on sale on the Superbreak website in the section I linked on my last post and all have been removed at different times for different airports.
19.03.18 Seville: Authentic Andalucía break
23.04.18 Verona, Venice and Lake Garda
07.05.18 Florence, Pisa and Tuscany
25.05.18 Malta
16.11.18 Madeira
18.02.19 Iceland break

[JollyTraveller]

Egglescliffe to London Kings Cross is operated by Grand Central and has 5 direct trains per day. Journey time is 02h 40m to 03h 03m.
Darlington to London Kings Cross is operated by Virgin Trains East Coast and has 31 direct trains per day. Journey time is 02h 23m to 03h 15m(Due to late night restrictions).


Plus there are many more indirect trains between the Tees Valley area and London which will get you into centre of London in under 3 hours.


London City might work but I'm not sure if the demand would be enough to support that route. Airlines must look at London's major transfer hubs Gatwick or Heathrow or forget about it. The likes of Southend / Luton / Stansted would be pointless. I would prefer Durham Tees Valley Airport to focus on overseas airports that can also be used as hub airport instead of the London hubs. i.e. Target Dublin, Paris, Barcelona or Madrid, Berlin or Munich.

[NorthSouth]

I would prefer Durham Tees Valley Airport to focus on overseas airports that can also be used as hub airport instead of the London hubs. i.e. Target Dublin, Paris, Barcelona or Madrid, Berlin or Munich.All well and good. But they already have Schiphol, to which pax levels have dropped by 7.4% over the last two years. Is there really room for ANOTHER international hub?

[JollyTraveller]

All well and good. But they already have Schiphol, to which pax levels have dropped by 7.4% over the last two years. Is there really room for ANOTHER international hub?


That is always going to be the risk. In the past the airport has successfully operated routes to multiple hubs at the same time.


But I think those airports would offer lot without the need to be like for like competition with Amsterdam/KLM. i.e. 1 return flight a day to Paris would add bit competition for KLM but would be mostly aimed at people wanting to be visitor the Paris area or North east area for business and leisure.


It would be interesting to see if the likes of Copenhagen could work from Durham Tees Valley Airport. Newcastle and Leeds Bradford seem to fall just short but with Durham Tees Valley being in middle it maybe able work as direct route and serve the North East area.

[tigertanaka]

That is always going to be the risk. In the past the airport has successfully operated routes to multiple hubs at the same time.


But I think those airports would offer lot without the need to be like for like competition with Amsterdam/KLM. i.e. 1 return flight a day to Paris would add bit competition for KLM but would be mostly aimed at people wanting to be visitor the Paris area or North east area for business and leisure.


It would be interesting to see if the likes of Copenhagen could work from Durham Tees Valley Airport. Newcastle and Leeds Bradford seem to fall just short but with Durham Tees Valley being in middle it maybe able work as direct route and serve the North East area.

My company would probably take 20 seats a week on a MME-CPH flight. We have a large business in the Nordics.

[darren1]

That is always going to be the risk. In the past the airport has successfully operated routes to multiple hubs at the same time.


But I think those airports would offer lot without the need to be like for like competition with Amsterdam/KLM. i.e. 1 return flight a day to Paris would add bit competition for KLM but would be mostly aimed at people wanting to be visitor the Paris area or North east area for business and leisure.


It would be interesting to see if the likes of Copenhagen could work from Durham Tees Valley Airport. Newcastle and Leeds Bradford seem to fall just short but with Durham Tees Valley being in middle it maybe able work as direct route and serve the North East area.

AF and KL are the same company though

[mcginty1]

A business trip to Exeter last week with a colleague.
Two return tickets from Newcastle with Flybe for 60% of what i was quoted for one return ticket to Aberdeen next week?

For the first time in 30 years of working in Aberdeen I am taking the train over the plane. Paying £360 plus airport fees and parking, for a 360 mile round trip is abhorrent, considering earlier this year this route was down to less than £200.
Its a complete Joke and an insult to the people who want to use their own airport.

Incidentally Exeter has a population a third the size of Teesside but boast daily flights to Amsterdam ,Paris , Dublin , London , Belfast , Manchester and Newcastle, not to mention holiday flights.
In total 18 cities. We are down to 2 which soon could be 1.

[SWBKCB]

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/cyber-college-opening-shows-commitment-14437321


The Tees Valley Cyber College became the latest company to base its operations at the Middleton St George site.

The college is the first of its kind in the UK, and will provide support and training for companies across the region as concerns continue to grow over cyber attacks and crime.

Steve Gill, CEO of Peel Airports, which runs DTVA, said: “We see it as a great example of the potential for expanding the range of business activities at the airport, an important element in our business plans for maximising sources of revenue to support and develop aviation activities.”.

[AirportPlanner1]

Incidentally Exeter has a population a third the size of Teesside but boast daily flights to Amsterdam ,Paris , Dublin , London , Belfast , Manchester and Newcastle, not to mention holiday flights.

But average earnings around Exeter are 10% higher than around Teeside, and median earnings over 20% higher. Around Teeside few are more than 40 miles from an alternative airport with service to European and holiday destinations and many live considerably closer, whereas Exeter is at least 65 miles with parts of its catchment such as Plymouth being over 100 miles from an alternative. I would also suggest Exeter has greater inbound tourism appeal.

[N707ZS]

I would also suggest Exeter has greater inbound tourism appeal.

Just do a google search and you will see more tourist attractions near DTVA than Exeter.

[canberra97]

And those tourists are obviously not using Teesside Airport.

[AirportPlanner1]

Just do a google search and you will see more tourist attractions near DTVA than Exeter.

The google search brings up a lot of ‘attractions’ of limited or very local interest to be honest. I’m fully aware of the big draws of the north, but the Jurassic Coast, Dartmoor and Cornwall are big hitters as well. As a neutral while I personally would go for the hiking opportunities of the Moors, I would suggest more people generally and especially overseas visitors from France, Germany, Netherlands etc would go more for the warmer weather and dramatic coast of the south-west.

Regardless, I refer you back to distance - Teeside has convenient alternatives whereas Exeter doesn’t. I don’t think DTVA has ever had a regular scheduled network to a number of cities?

[Robert-Ryan]

Glad the Exeter example was shot down; knew it was a terrible example but couldn't quite put it into words

[SWBKCB]

Grant named new Durham Tees Valley Airport chief - BQLive (http://www.bqlive.co.uk/north-east-cumbria/2018/03/22/news/grant-named-new-durham-tees-valley-airport-chief-31339/)



David Grant has been named as the new managing director of Durham Tees Valley Airport.

David Grant, who has 30 years commercial experience, will assume responsibility for the commercial and operational performance of the airport.

Grant joined the airport three years ago, firstly as business development director and then as commercial director.

He had previously held a number of senior management roles in the airports industry, including as a director at Glasgow Prestwick Airport and managing a specialist aviation business.

[N707ZS]

What's the tree of command now then, who's job has he taken?

[NorthSouth]

Grant joined the airport three years ago, firstly as business development director and then as commercial director.

He had previously held a number of senior management roles in the airports industry, including as a director at Glasgow Prestwick AirportHmm, two questions:
1. How much 'business development' has there been at DTVA in the last three years?
2. Is Prestwick a successful airport?

[Robert-Ryan]

He's taken Steve Gills job, we appear to be getting our own hierarchy rather than shared with Doncaster.

NorthSouth
1) Lot's - There are a lot more businesses, aviation or otherwise, at the airport now than prior to three years ago
2) More so than when he must have been there than now that's for sure

[highwideandugly]

Impressive passenger figures for DTV.Finally published by the CAA!!

Growth in both the core areas.
Should continue into February although March will be hit by weather!

[highwideandugly]

After my positive posting regarding the Impressive figures for January..reality kicked in!

If that level continues all year then it will be the lowest passenger figures recorded since 1969.
At the moment those levels won’t continue ,as we are back to an erratic carrier and only 3 flights per day to Aberdeen.Also as stated..KLM also cutting the AMS service over the Summer months...so apart from a Summer Jersey flight..the figures will continue to decline.

Not good?

[tigertanaka]

After my positive posting regarding the Impressive figures for January..reality kicked in!

If that level continues all year then it will be the lowest passenger figures recorded since 1969.
At the moment those levels won’t continue ,as we are back to an erratic carrier and only 3 flights per day to Aberdeen.Also as stated..KLM also cutting the AMS service over the Summer months...so apart from a Summer Jersey flight..the figures will continue to decline.

Not good?

Not good but there is about 16% more capacity on the KLM E175 (88 seats, all sellable) than there was on the Fokker 70 (80 seats, 4 rows of J means 76 sellable seats).

[Scottie Dog]

Not good but there is about 16% more capacity on the KLM E175 (88 seats, all sellable) than there was on the Fokker 70 (80 seats, 4 rows of J means 76 sellable seats).

I'm confused Tigertanka. If there are 4 rows of N class are you trying to say these are not for sale? If I have booked J class to SIN then I would appreciate the use of a J seat MME-AMS, after all I've paid for it!

[N707ZS]

And there's the 190 which does occasionally appear.

[A320.b744]

I'm confused Tigertanka. If there are 4 rows of N class are you trying to say these are not for sale? If I have booked J class to SIN then I would appreciate the use of a J seat MME-AMS, after all I've paid for it!

The Fokker 70 had 80 seats - for each row in business class, two of the five seats were blocked out, meaning not all 80 seats were sold. On the Embraer 170, there are 88 seats, all of which are sold, as no seats are blocked out in business class.

[Beafer]

Councillor Dixon comments on the airport at full meeting.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/holiday-flights-welcome-business-routes-14455738

QUOTE:
Councillor Dixon replied: “It was never the intention to give Peel a penny.

“Peel asked for money, yes, and Peel may think they are going to get money.

“But the intention was always to have the capacity within the Tees Valley Combined Authority because I am not 100% convinced that our all has been done that could be done to bring new routes to that airport.”

[highwideandugly]

Amazing growth from TUI in the regions being announced..is this the chance DTV has been waiting for?

[highwideandugly]

February figures up yet again!,

Increases on AMS. ABZ. Not showing yet but obviously will be better.

[Robert-Ryan]

Good news about Balkan Holidays today; there must be more coming as well otherwise we're just back to square one

[SWBKCB]

Yes - good news. Bulgaria has been a popular destination for years - they obviously see money to be made, lets hope both sides have read the contract this time!

[Beafer]

Good news about Balkan Holidays today; there must be more coming as well otherwise we're just back to square one

Good to see a holiday route. Mr Hough gives a video interview.
In it he mentions Logan Air?

Public comments under article.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/new-flights-heading-durham-tees-14466196

[Robert-Ryan]

Video is from Flying For The Future launch is it not?

[Beafer]

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/tees-mayor-set-ask-airline-14474300

[Robert-Ryan]

Just trying to score points, hopefully KLM will see through him

[N707ZS]

KLM was full first out this morning. Mayor Ben would probably take credit for this! But nothing to do with him.

[A320.b744]

Just trying to score points, hopefully KLM will see through him

Would you rather he did nothing and let KLM axe the route? The Mayor is creating a dialogue to ensure that the airport and local economy don't suffer.

[Robert-Ryan]

There's no suggestion KLM are considering axing the route, they have no reason to its a strong performer

[A320.b744]

There's no suggestion KLM are considering axing the route, they have no reason to its a strong performer

Have you seen the passenger figures? In 2017, KLM had a load factor of just 59% on their AMS-MME route. Here are the annual load factors for KLM's other UK routes where it has a monopoly;

AMS-ABZ: 80%
AMS-BHD: 77%
AMS-CWL: 73%
AMS-HUY: 65%
AMS-INV: 72%

As you can see, KLM's MME route is performing very poorly, and unless these numbers improve drastically, either the frequency will be reduced, or the route could even be axed altogether. That is why the mayor is wanting to create a dialogue with KLM. One of his campaign promises was to revive the fortunes of MME, and ultimately talking to the airport's largest operator is a sensible and proactive approach to take.

[Robert-Ryan]

The load factor is the same now as it has been for years or thereabouts, how do the yields compare on those routes one wonders

[SWBKCB]

Have you seen the passenger figures? In 2017, KLM had a load factor of just 59% on their AMS-MME route. Here are the annual load factors for KLM's other UK routes where it has a monopoly;

Good grief - it's like being back at work, a load of numbers being quoted with no context or analysis! Load factors tell you nowt without any details of what is being paid. KLM could probably fill the flights with lots of loss-leading fares, but this route has survived for years on connecting local industries with the rest of the world - yes "global connectivity" - and we must assume they are happy with the "yield".

In fact, "global connectivity" is the one thing that everybody in the DTVA saga agrees on.

In normal times, the mayor meeting with KLM wouldn't be an issue, but it really is time for him put up or shut up. He got elected on a manifesto which included sorting out the airport, but so far he's done nothing but stir the pot and damage confidence, and has yet to explain how he intends to buy something Peel don't want to sell, where he's going to get the money for it, and what he's going to do with it once he's got it.

Whatever, KLM must be rubbing their hands...

[VentureGo]

Have you seen the passenger figures? In 2017, KLM had a load factor of just 59% on their AMS-MME route. Here are the annual load factors for KLM's other UK routes where it has a monopoly;

AMS-ABZ: 80%
AMS-BHD: 77%
AMS-CWL: 73%
AMS-HUY: 65%
AMS-INV: 72%Amsterdam - Newcastle in 2017 (as above) I read recently was 87.4% - "The same percentage as for KLM's total flight network" - can't find the source, maybe someone can supply.

DTVA suffered a 5.7% decline in volume, although more seats were available. Leeds Bradford increased by 1.3% with similar capacity in terms of aircraft used. Newcastle declined 4.3% mainly due to capacity constrained by smaller a/c being used on some sectors.
DTVA - 96,000 pax
NCL - 364,000 pax
LBA - 254,000 pax

[SWBKCB]

This should help the new house sales...


People living near Teesside Airport have hit out over council orders to paint their shiny conservatory roofs matt black.

Residents of an area surrounding Durham Tees Valley Airport have received letters of instruction after pilots claimed glare from the reflecting sun puts them off.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/homeowners-living-near-airport-hit-14470733

[Planespeaking]

This should help the new house sales...




https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/homeowners-living-near-airport-hit-14470733

Perhaps the date may have something to do with it!

[SWBKCB]

Oh aye :O - there again, it is DTVA so nothing surprises...

[flybar]

Amsterdam - Newcastle in 2017 (as above) I read recently was 87.4% - "The same percentage as for KLM's total flight network" - can't find the source, maybe someone can supply.

DTVA suffered a 5.7% decline in volume, although more seats were available. Leeds Bradford increased by 1.3% with similar capacity in terms of aircraft used. Newcastle declined 4.3% mainly due to capacity constrained by smaller a/c being used on some sectors.
DTVA - 96,000 pax
NCL - 364,000 pax
LBA - 254,000 pax

Not forgetting that Jet2 fly rotations every day between LBA and AMS

[Beafer]

Changes to the DTVA Ltd board.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423/filing-history

More details.
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423/officers

Can anyone explain what these charges are which have been filed against the airport?
https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/02020423/charges

[N707ZS]

Google Debenture and dig around there! Someone else might come along.

[01475]

The council could sell the hotel if they didn't keep up payments to the pension fund.

[P330]

Have to say I'm a little confused and am wondering if anyone more informed can explain.

Some years ago Thomson and Balkan were kicked out for being unviable. That decision has been discussed at length here in the subsequent years. I think most of us understand the rationale now even if we don't agree with it.

Now Balkan are back for 2019 with one flight a week. One would assume the economic arguments of the past remain, so I was expecting more flights to be announced to make things viable. But now TUI, Thomas Cook and Jet2 are on sale for next summer and there is no mention of MME.

So, the questions are....

Is there a plan for someone else to come in and who could they be?

If not, what has changed economically to make Balkan work this time?

Or was there more to the story when the original axe fell that we don't know about?

[10 DME ARC]

I am guessing that Balkan and the rest of the IT program wasn't 'kicked out' but rather the deal at the time wasn't renewed?? Again guessing, I think Balkan may be back with a new more favourable contract for the airport this time??
Well that's how a normal airport might operate so????

[SWBKCB]

I am guessing that Balkan and the rest of the IT program wasn't 'kicked out' but rather the deal at the time wasn't renewed??

No - Balkan had just signed a new contract, but hadn't started operations before they were "kicked out". The point made at the time was that cost of servicing the flights was more than the airport would make, so they weren't economic (which begs the still open question as to why the contract was signed in the first place...).

Presumably this has now changed and Balkan are paying at a level where the airport aren't losing money.

[Robert-Ryan]

There are two scenarios; 1) the airport were anticipating more to come which would have made the overall charter programme viable; this seems to have been confirmed by that Sue Jeffries woman in a press release a couple of months ago and is consistent with rumours I heard going back long before that. Unfortunately the Mayor seems to have blocked anything else that might have been coming, however, I suspect Peel as a ruthless operator would in such an event just axe Balkan again, which makes scenario 2 far more likely - that Balkan are simply paying a fair price.

[N707ZS]

Another point is that the Balkan flight is a Saturday so staff should be available with only a couple of KLMs and the Jersey.

[Beafer]

Judge decision regarding FOI request for DTV sale documents.

"Peel’s case asserted that disclosure could weaken its position in negotiations with potential new investors in the airport and could be used by competitors against it.

“What Peel has completely failed to do, however, is to support its assertions with evidence,” the judge said.
“There are no witness statements, and no evidence or even arguments to link the disclosure of any specific aspect of the information with any specific business interests that would or would be likely to be prejudiced by its disclosure.”

Peel had “failed to show the causal link between the disputed information and the claimed prejudice”, the tribunal concluded, ordering Hartlepool to send Latimer the information within 35 days.”

14th March 2018.
Hartlepool Borough Council v IC & (Dismissed : Freedom of Information Act 2000) [2018] UKFTT 2017_0057 (GRC) (09 April 2018) (http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKFTT/GRC/2018/2017_0057.html)

https://eastdevonwatch.org/2018/04/11/council-fails-in-appeal-over-foi-request-and-commercial-prejudice/

[N707ZS]

Wonder how much money that waste of time cost, hopefully it wasn't money that could of been spent on the airport.

[SWBKCB]

Lets call it the price of doing business in a democracy. In reality it will be a pittance, Peel have plenty of money to spend on the airport - if they want to.

[Beafer]

The full ruling document into the councils appeal makes interesting reading.
Hartlepool Borough Council v IC & (Dismissed : Freedom of Information Act 2000) [2018] UKFTT 2017_0057 (GRC) (09 April 2018) (http://www.bailii.org/uk/cases/UKFTT/GRC/2018/2017_0057.html)

I wouldn't be surprised if a few council officers are worried about what now finally comes out into the public domain.

Too many people have wondered why a certain few in the councils gave away 835 acres pius airport buildings to a multi billion pound land company for the very small sum of only £500k? :ugh:

The judge gave the council 35 days from 14th March 2018 to provide ALL of the information which had previously been kept Secret by the councils and Peel.
I wonder if there will be any government inquiries into this sale? :ok:

The press should be now asking the 6 council leaders and the DTV Airport council board members what they have to say about the latest legal findings?

[N707ZS]

Simple it was knackered and needed loads of money investing into it. If the councils hadn't disposed of it what could they have done? Sold it for houses?

[No-More-Bullschit]

Is it true that Peel got the airport
for “next to nothing”?

At the point of acquisition by The Peel Group
in 2003, DTVA was making a loss of circa
half a million pounds per annum. In addition,
the business was carrying significant historic
cost burdens including large pension liabilities.
This would of course be reflected in the
value of the business. And the value was
set by the local authorities at the time.
Airports are renowned for their large
capital expenditure requirements.
At DTVA, The Peel Group has invested in:
– Fire vehicles
– Airfield resurfacing
– Air traffic control radar enhancements
– X-ray security equipment
– Car park extensions and surfacing
This list is far from exhaustive. In addition to
£26 million in capital investment, much of
which is not necessarily obvious to the
travelling public, the business has borne the
entirety of the annualised financial losses creating
an investment of over £36 million, relieving the
local authority and taxpayer of this burden.
Taken from the Your Questions Answered document. A perfectly satisfactory answer, even if some don't think so

[SWBKCB]

N707ZS response is broadly as I understand it as well.

As for N-M-B's quote, it is an answer but whether it is a perfectly satisfactory one might be resolved by the FOI request. Hopefully it will reveal what the original contract defined by way of the term "investment" (para 46). For example does it include annual operational losses, which I don't think most people would expect it to cover.

[highwideandugly]

Re the quote above..was making a loss of 500k per annum.does anyone have the up to date loss/ profit figures for comparison?
Most of the improvements were probably legislation driven.

Since that momentous day in 2003 the airport has been on a slow side aviation wise until this point in time.2018 will bring the lowest passenger figures since 1971,less movements and less schedule aviation activity.The place is a shadow of its former glories.Future uncertainty continues.

PEEL ? Good landlords..methinks not.

[Robert-Ryan]

The document NMB references also shows that the "slow slide aviation wise" as highwide puts it, is largely not their fault. For the last few years they've been trying to get blood out of a stone, and now they've finally found some, a Mayor comes along...

[highwideandugly]

RR broadly true..but has been said many times..PEEL,if they had the will and desire..could with their financial clout..have invested massively to make the airport a potential success..instead of this hiatus it finds itself in.

[Robert-Ryan]

They have will and desire to spare, you don't go throwing millions at something in the hope it might trigger something, it needs to work on its own terms

[SWBKCB]

R-R - you reference the Mayor's interference, this seems to be around £500k to move the airport forward. Hardly "throwing millions".

Similarly, the Thomson and Balkan flights were dropped as "unsustainable" when somebody had signed the contracts with these airlines (Balkan hadn't even started!).

In some cases Peel have been victims of circumstances, but it isn't always somebody else's fault.

[Robert-Ryan]

SWBKCB we don't know the full SP regarding the 500k...the council's own 11% perhaps 500k is 11% of what is required?? And the contracts were signed on the belief more was to be forthcoming, and sadly it wasn't

[SWBKCB]

TVCA documents talk about Peel matching the £500k of public money requested.

[No-More-Bullschit]

We're going over old ground again on here. Let's say the FOI request reveals skullduggery (I suspect it will be heavily redacted), what then?? Can't get rid of Peel as no other PLC will touch the place and the Mayor and TVCA are not fit for the purpose. If I were Peel I'd just be sat with a beer in my hand laughing my head off saying we don't give a f...

[Beafer]

We're going over old ground again on here. Let's say the FOI request reveals skullduggery (I suspect it will be heavily redacted), what then?? Can't get rid of Peel as no other PLC will touch the place and the Mayor and TVCA are not fit for the purpose. If I were Peel I'd just be sat with a beer in my hand laughing my head off saying we don't give a f...

They cant redact any of the details. The judge has clearly stated that.
Peel may not give a f.... but there will be certain people in the councils who were involved who most definitely be twitching right now.

[oldart]

So are Peel saying even if they had allowed more airlines to fly from MME, they would make even more of a loss than they do now. As stated before, more passengers through the gates would mean more income within the terminal and of course more rental opportunity.

[tigertanaka]

So are Peel saying even if they had allowed more airlines to fly from MME, they would make even more of a loss than they do now. As stated before, more passengers through the gates would mean more income within the terminal and of course more rental opportunity.

More passengers also means more cost, I believe that is the issue.

[oldart]

More passengers also means more cost, I believe that is the issue.

So is there a figure on how many passengers it would require to break even?
I presume it is more than one full plane load an hour!

[Beafer]

Planners have already given planning permission for 55 houses on this plot which is opposite the motorhome site.
Maybe the developers who went through the planning process have been put off by the flooding which occurs behind the site.
Price on application. Thought Peel would have bought it?
Land for sale in DL2, DL2 (http://www.rightmove.co.uk/commercial-property-for-sale/property-71768594.html)

[highwideandugly]

Eight days without a post..so quiet and no aviation news whatsoever..good job Beafers on the case!

[No-More-Bullschit]

An airport like Teesside isn't exactly going to produce newsworthy material all that often even with all the will in the world. Beafer is having to scrape the barrel just to provide content

[Bishop01]

So... "still no sign of anyone else joining Balkan for next years summer program yet?"

[Robert-Ryan]

There is hope that the presumed based aircraft operating leisure flights that the Mayor blocked is only postponed until 2020 rather than cancelled outright, but it's purely speculation

[GrahamK]

Presumably it would be someone like Flybe? Can't see Jet2, TCX or TUI going into MME

[bigjim99]

AMS cancelled this morning. Told at airport this was due to 'weather'. Weather was ok at MME, METAR didn't seem too bad at AMS. Scheduled aircraft operated AMS-FRA instead despite 'weather'.

Anyone any further info? What's the chances of EU261 payout on this? Wouldn't normally pursue but hate being fobbed off in such a way.
​​​​​​
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[mmeman]

Re Amsterdam - lots of the early morning flights to Amsterdam were delayed - checking on the Eurocontrol website it was due to high winds at Amsterdam. Just as a matter of interest were you offered a flight from Newcastle or Leeds?

[Bishop01]

There is hope that the presumed based aircraft operating leisure flights that the Mayor blocked is only postponed until 2020 rather than cancelled outright, but it's purely speculation

The mayor didn't block any flights, he just blocked more tax payers money going into peels back pockets, so you can quote what you like about the mayor, but at the end of the day, he's rite, "peel have had enough from the local tax payers!" another classic quote from a peel fanatic!

[Robert-Ryan]

In the past you have told me my head is in the sand...then have the gall to defend the Mayor who most definitely did block flights!! Another classic quote from an anti-Peel fanatic!

[SWBKCB]

I think this is the key to recent posts - "it's purely speculation"!

Shouldn't the Mayor have met KLM by now?

[oldart]

So if the councils had not sold out to Peel, would the elected Mayor, still have been able to veto any plans the council owners would have had for the airport?
I guess we will never find out but the situation seems crackers to me.

[Beafer]

Hartlepool council has to reveal the redacted FOI documents into the sale of Teesside Airport today.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/judge-orders-secret-council-files-14583930

[highwideandugly]

Pull up your chairs,get the beer out of the fridge,order the take away...it’s going to be a very interesting couple of weeks.After Hartlepool..is it Middlesbrough,Darlington,Durham etc. To be investigated? Who needs TV soaps!


at the end of the day..the airport is quietly disappearing in to the abyss...come in Mr.mayor?

[N707ZS]

Oldart as previously posted, if the councils still owned it, it would have closed so the mayors involvement wouldn't have mattered.

[N707ZS]

highwideandugly (https://www.pprune.org/members/230376-highwideandugly)mayor will be down at the rugby club with a pint and a parmo.

[Beafer]

Leeds airport boss is targeting DTV passengers and mentions DTVA in an interview.
Just shows the trade is there but Peel only want to build houses.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/business/business-news/yorkshires-biggest-airport-targeting-teessiders-14583282

[N707ZS]

"top of the list for travellers who don’t mind an hour or so on the A1". Might as well go an hour or so in the other direction or Manchester just as quick! If the meddling mayor had stuck to pints, parmos and rugby we might of had some holiday flights. Has Leeds slipped him some pie money to scupper the DTVA holiday flights.

[Robert-Ryan]

Peel only want to build houses.
Yes Beafer that's why they almost had and still might have a based leisure airline 🙄

Muppet.

[Beafer]

Yes Beafer that's why they almost had and still might have a based leisure airline 🙄

Muppet.

Strange way for a Peel supporter to sign off ;)

[Beafer]

Looks like Peel were planning ahead with another small clause which they included about closing the airport in the future.

Wonder if thats why they kicked the large airline out to make the figures worse? Was it Hugh who recommended Peel as he went onto work for them before joining the hospital board.

Its time the individuals involved in the sale were named and investigated into how a public owned airport was given away for a fraction of its land worth.
Does make you wonder if the sale documents were drawn up over a pint at the local lodge. Public comments say it all under the news articles.

Echo news
http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/16197499.Answers_demanded_over_Airport_sale_as_council_force d_to_release__secret__papers/

Gazette news
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/secret-documents-reveal-fresh-details-14601584

[SWBKCB]

So what does these articles tell us that is new? Anybody know if the documents released are available online?

[Beafer]

So what does these articles tell us that is new? Anybody know if the documents released are available online?

Gazette appear to have a copy shown in the pictures. Hartlepool council should put them on their website for all to see.
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/airport-files-key-revelations-documents-14602992

I would expect to see them on the Save Teesside Airport Facebook page in the next week or so.

[Robert-Ryan]

Hmmm

I think the first thing to say is Peel could have at any point since circa 2010 claimed the airport was no longer economically viable and closed it and they are repeatedly choosing not too, couple this with the fact that the land would lose substantial value without the airport on it and they have little incentive to close it.

Also good to see Peel finally making clear that the keeping the airport open until 2021 thing is five years longer than their counterparts at other third tier airports are promising:

“In recent years we have made a further commitment to the local authorities to maintain airport operations.

“This is very different from the approach taken by many other private companies who have withdrawn from regional airport operations in recent years, with the resulting closure of a number of airports and others, notably Prestwick and Cardiff, surviving only through effective ‘nationalisation’ by the Scottish and Welsh Governments.”


In a second document, titled ‘The best and final offer of Peel’, the operator told the councils that future passenger projections were “conservative” and that it would plan “for even greater numbers”.
This is the case with the figures quoted in the Masterplan, which are merely Government projections.

Wonder if thats why they kicked the large airline out to make the figures worse?
Once again, as mentioned just the other day...Peel had a based leisure airline ready and waiting to come in next summer (also not something you would pursue if you had aspirations to close the place!!), and judging by the timing of TUIs announcement of their summer 19 programme, it must have been them and they are about the only candidate, so not only does this line of argument no longer hold any weight whatsoever, it's downright stupid!

Now I don't want to lower myself to the antagonists level by always having an answer to everything so I will end on a footnote conceding that generally speaking this whole thing is bad; the clause to close the airport is very bad (even if largely meaningless and probably standard business practice when buying a large high risk facility of any kind) and the lack of promised south-side [aviation] development thus far is bad, Peels response today came across with an element of fear about it (or perhaps just frustration at interference from individuals whose business it is none of) and ultimately there are things that need to change.

[Beafer]

Peel are a land company, thats how they make money. Buy cheap land as in the case of Teesside Airport (very cheap) and develop it. The airport side of Tokenhouse Ltd is a fraction of the company.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Peel_Group

Tokenhouse Ltd are based in the Isle of Man and are the ultimate PARENT company of Peel. This news piece gives you an idea of what they are all about.
Revealed: how the company regenerating the Clyde pays as little tax as possible | HeraldScotland (http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/13150676.Revealed__how_the_company_regenerating_the_Clyde_pa ys_as_little_tax_as_possible/)

I doubt that Peel would have been given the recent planning permission to build any houses near the DTVA terminal due to public opposition IF they had closed DTVA before now.

By sending a large airline company packing saying they don't want that type of holiday business makes no sense at all, unless of course they want to just have the place ticking over until they get more houses around the airport site

Looking at Tokenhouse Ltd it seems to be a network of companies and individuals.
https://offshoreleaks.icij.org/nodes/82010602

Incorporated 9 years ago. https://opencorporates.com/companies/im/004056V

Press are also looking at the companies activities. Nerve 18 - Peel under the spotlight (http://www.catalystmedia.org.uk/archive/issues/nerve18/peel_under_spotlight.php)

Assets of £6.6 BILLION - https://ipfs.io/ipfs/QmXoypizjW3WknFiJnKLwHCnL72vedxjQkDDP1mXWo6uco/wiki/The_Peel_Group.html

[Beafer]

Lets hope the next FOI reveals who signed the airport sale documents which Peel and the councils have been trying to hide for over a decade!

[SWBKCB]

Beefer - same question, where's anything new? Unless everybody's has missed it, there's no smoking gun in these documents.

Hindsight's a wonderful thing.

[N707ZS]

Hot news..... nice new carpet in the terminal!

Just read the comments in the Gazette, ranting loons is all I can see.

[tigertanaka]

Hot news..... nice new carpet in the terminal!

Just to say that yesterday, I used the airport for the first time in a couple of months. Despite the automatic front doors still not fully working (or the alternate left/right doors switched off to keep the heat in the building?), I would say that the airport is looking really good at the moment. The check in area is modern and clean, there is a screen covering the entrance to the security screening area and the departure waiting area has been fully redecorated including new furniture.

The newly refurbished lounge now has some hot breakfast food (bacon, sausage, scrambled eggs) and now offers a range of spirits which I do not remember seeing before either.

Slight delay on departure caused by weather at Amsterdam but the staff kept everyone fully informed of what was going on.

A small airport like MME has to play to it's strengths. Turning up 45 minutes before departure, quick security and a decent lounge are the things that matter to me when I am travelling on business. Holiday flights are of course something else but my experience yesterday was very positive.

[highwideandugly]

Don’t like the prune set up....never mind.


interesting..yet again..times...PEEL stand accused..the councils stand accused..the travelling public stand accused(for not using the airport)we all stand accused..think I’m going to switch to train spotting!

[Robert-Ryan]

So Beafer asks this...
Wonder if thats why they kicked the large airline out to make the figures worse?

...gets explained this (for the umpteenth time)...
Peel had a based leisure airline ready and waiting to come in next summer (also not something you would pursue if you had aspirations to close the place!!), and judging by the timing of TUIs announcement of their summer 19 programme, it must have been them and they are about the only candidate, so not only does this line of argument no longer hold any weight whatsoever, it's downright stupid!

...and even the most dedicated of anti-Peel antagonists seem to understand this...
Peel moved away from charters because of a lack of volume (i.e. unprofitable) rather than they don't want charter business

...yet less than five hours later he still comes out with this:
By sending a large airline company packing saying they don't want that type of holiday business makes no sense at all

I have to wonder if he simply doesn't read posts that are not his own or if he's not quite a full schilling...and people wonder why he gets crucified on here :ugh:

[Beafer]

And so it begins.
Solicitors acting for the other councils will be making a fortune advising councillors about latest FOI requests, and their involvement in the airport give away.

Comments by the public under the news piece say it all. Shredding tonight, and some wondering how do we dodge this one ;)

Councils to reconsider releasing Durham Tees Valley Airport deal details | The Northern Echo (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/16200327.Councils_to_reconsider_releasing_airport_deal_detai ls/)

Looks like Peel / Tokenhouse will be coming under the spotlight and who in their right mind would agree to sale conditions which have been revealed in the press.
Why didn't the council tell their own lawyers to include a claw back clause if Peel made a hash of it, as Peel had the clauses about closing the airport if it wasn't viable, and the one about taking shares after 10 years if the councils didn't give them millions!!!.

In the press there are moves to use a compulsory purchase order on the old SSI steel site. Time for the Mayor to do the same with Durham Tees Valley Airport and send Peel and their favourite councillors packing.

[SWBKCB]

Short of putting barricades across the runway, can anybody think of a better way of putting off any potential new operators?

[SWBKCB]

In the press there are moves to use a compulsory purchase order on the old SSI steel site. Time for the Mayor to do the same with Durham Tees Valley Airport

And then what? :rolleyes:

[N707ZS]

Manston comes to mind, a closed airport decaying for years whilst this and that bitch over it!