Durham Tees Valley-7

[Robert-Ryan]

Newmarket Holidays have axed all their one off charters UK wide after this season

[inOban]

Does that mean they are going to buy space on scheduled flights?

[Robert-Ryan]

I believe so yes, they used KLM for some of this years, I think they're just going to keep doing that. The impression I got is sourcing and chartering aircraft is too hard/expensive

[highwideandugly]

Pity another loss of passengers.I know not many but good advertising if nothing else?
Wonder what that means for Omega Holidays who also operate from DTV?

[Robert-Ryan]

and by all accounts phase two of said Peel plans are to be announced imminently :ok:

[something_diferent]

Maybe a response from FlyBe/Eastern to Loganair coming in? Have to admit, struggling to see which business type routes could be viable, apart from a possible London City flight?

[highwideandugly]

Hi guys..change of subject..any dates on the Skylive air show next year yet?

[No-More-Bullschit]

Don't know the answer to your Skylive query, but I have a change of subject of my own - marketing, something that historically the airport has never got right, in the last couple of weeks I've heard KLM advertise Newcastle-Amsterdam on two local stations that have recently favoured Durham-Amsterdam, and can somebody please point me in the direction of some Loganair advertising because I'm drawing a blank, I noted some on the Northern Echo website when it was first announced but that seems to have gone :confused:

[highwideandugly]

Wonder if it's because it wouldn't be cost effective?
My thought is there is very little " new" point to point traffic out there and most of the guys( and girls)because of the oil industry mainly served would already know about the new service?
Probably also advertised in the oil industry circles?

[highwideandugly]

Just looking at the great DTV movements web site...Are there any Grouse left on the Yorkshire moors!!!!????

[N707ZS]

What caused the new start on the thread? See we are back to page 1.

[Robert-Ryan]

Highwide I was going to suggest it is just Consort doing as they promised, as there has been a marked increase even ignoring the grouse shooters...but curiously I noted swissport handling a couple of todays corporate flights

[highwideandugly]

Do Consort advertise their services? Must say I haven't seen any? Don't suppose they have much say in where the Grouse aircraft go..do the aircraft not follow the Grouse?!!

Figures updated on DTV website..still a downward trend in all areas including movements...wonder when it will bottom out? Nearly as predicted earlier in the year down to 1970 levels.What is more worrying,this is on the back of Most airports reporting record figures?

[something_diferent]

I'd imagine due to size of the thread? A whole load of new threads have been created so nothing in particular due to DTV.

[Robert-Ryan]

I'd also like to point out I'm not the thread starter, they must have nipped the old thread off just above one of my posts

[Piltdown Man]

Minor news, but the last Fokker flights by KLM will occur on the 28 October. From then on capacity will increase on this route as the smallest aircraft KLM posses is an Embraer 175 with 88 seats. It's a slightly quicker aircraft and slightly more comfortable. But there is less storage space in the cabin for bags. So if your flight is full you will find that some cabin bags will have to be loaded into the holds. But any bags so loaded will no longer be at the foot of the stairs in AMS. They will instead go to the baggage carousel at your final destination.

[SWBKCB]

Loganair publicity

Loganair sign Boro shirt deal as daily flight times from Durham Tees Valley Airport confirmed - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/loganair-sign-boro-shirt-deal-13675139)

[N707ZS]

I bet the Newcastle passengers wish DTVA would take Newcastle diversions like the olden days. Bus from Edinburgh or Prestwick must have been a pain.

Suppose it must also be the choice of the airline.

[Piltdown Man]

Generally MME is a good place to divert to, if they are open. Assuming they are you also best have a contract in advance to stop yourself paying over the odds for handling. But if you do get in they are pretty good at dealing with the unusual.

[SWBKCB]

Assuming they are you also best have a contract in advance to stop yourself paying over the odds for handling.

Presumably why the NCL divs went to places they currently operate from?

[VentureGo]

Generally MME is a good place to divert to, if they are open. Assuming they are you also best have a contract in advance to stop yourself paying over the odds for handling. But if you do get in they are pretty good at dealing with the unusual.

copied from NCL thread (Maybe should be here..):

Newcastle had also taken in at least two Ryanair Diversions destined for Liverpool and one Jet 2 scheduled to Leeds Bradford due to fog at those airports earlier.
Wonder if DTV was equipped (Fire/Emergency/Border staff etc...) to take 737s and logistics for onward transition of passengers at the times all this played out?

[LBIA]

Both the inbound Eastern Jetstream 41 from ABZ and KLM Fokker 70 from AMS have diverted to NCL this evening due to Fog at MME.

[No-More-Bullschit]

Unfortunately it's not pre-2000 anymore and diversions go to the nearest airport where they have an operational presence, and not the nearest airport geographically (except in emergencies of course)

[highwideandugly]

I may be wrong but I'm sure airlines generally pre plan their diversions..usually as stated to other bases where they operate from.Hence the fuel uplift is pre arranged before departure to take diversion into account?

DTV is at a major disadvantage in that they have limited facilities exacerbated by frequent ATC closures,limited AFS cover(although not being notamned at moment?) and airport opening hours. Probably taking all into account not the best planned diversion airport?

[Robert-Ryan]

Airlines pre-plan their diversions for the event of an emergency, but if they are in a position to choose, then they will.

DTV is at a minor disadvantage at the moment, we do not have limited facilities overall, we have temporary ATC closures whilst a new radar controller is trained up, something which takes time due to the intricate nature of the role, and despite June being quoted fire cover is still set to go up to CAT6. Opening hours are sufficient.

[Piltdown Man]

Whenever the weather looks a bit iffy you generally put on more fuel and at the same time ask your operations department where they would prefer you to end up, before you depart. But when it comes time to divert, reality sometimes gets in the way. Like a couple of 747 diversions using all the local buses, ramps being fuel due to previous diversions etc. So generally what happens is if you don't have direct contact with your company in the air (ACARS, satellite phone etc.) you call your handling agent and get them to call your company in your behalf. But with an emergency you go wherever you need to and tell your company after the event, if they don't already know.

[highwideandugly]

N707ZS(Post 21) Diverted Passengers wishing the aircraft would go to DTV ,,Hits a nerve as Probably 50% of the aforementioned passengers are from Teesside!!! And that's what makes PEEL s running of the airport a disgrace!

Unless of course you blinkered guys can yet again come up with your rise tinted glass views on how well and promising the future looks??

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

I fly for an airline out of Newcastle so thought I'd give an insight into why MME is no longer used as a diversion.

When planning our flights, we have a fuel alternate and several commercial alternates. The fuel alternate is primarily used to allow us to depart with a lower fuel figure (commercial realities!). A commercial alternate will be chosen if there is a strong likelihood of a diversion It will be typically a base or company destination as the facilities are already in place to help on the ground.
We used to plan MME as a Fuel diversion because it required less fuel than EDI. I've also diverted into MME twice when NCL was closed (snow).

Unfortunately, due to the variable Fire Fighting Cover and limited opening hours, MME doesn't even appear in the company lists as a diversion airfield anymore. My last diversion (due to a thunderstorm) was into LBA.

Will this ever change?? The words chicken and Egg come to mind!

It's such a shame to see MME as it is - I did my PPL, instructing and some biz jet stuff there before moving north.

[Robert-Ryan]

Highwide, shut up and come back when you've got some pubes. Whilst there may be a tiny tiny bit of truth to your post, I've never seen such over-exaggerated baloney in all my life! In fact, Peels performance of late has been outstanding, most days are busy (by our standards anyway), Consort are truly delivering the goods in the bizjet department even excluding the grouse hunters, they're doing a cracking job on the terminal and big things are known to be coming, but hey, no doubt you equally-blinkered, tinted glasses wearing spammers will come up with further tripe on how doomed the future looks...:rolleyes:

[Robert-Ryan]

Flyit Pointit Sortit - an insightful post. As mentioned the fire category is going back up, and opening hours are good enough to (potentially) capture 90% of diversion traffic. I find it very hard to believe about MME not appearing in company lists...if there was to be a mishap and it's found it could have been avoided because an aircraft travelled further than needed because MME wasn't listed, the airline would be crucified

[SWBKCB]

if there was to be a mishap and it's found it could have been avoided because an aircraft travelled further than needed because MME wasn't listed, the airline would be crucified

Seriously.... :ugh:

[Flyit Pointit Sortit]

if there was to be a mishap and it's found it could have been avoided because an aircraft travelled further than needed because MME wasn't listed, the airline would be crucified

For info, on commercial aircraft, an en-route alternate needs to be within 1 hour flight time. On the A319, that is 380 miles. A destination alternate has no limit as long as you have enough fuel to get there, hold and make an approach.

PS. Airlines won't be crucified. It is a Captains decision. Currently I could only divert to MME in an emergency such as if I was on fire or about to run out of fuel.

[Robert-Ryan]

I stand corrected on that particular aspect of diversions

[highwideandugly]

Robert..don't get personal!! The facts as officially reported and stated...movements are down and passengers are down consistently.What are PEEL doing to arrest this?
I don't think a handling agent generates traffic..or very little.They come because they want to.DTV has always been at its busiest for biz traffic between August and November..it's an historic fact.
It's called realism,sorry.

[Robert-Ryan]

Highwide if you think that's me getting personal you don't want to see me genuinely get personal! Just as I was starting to build a bit of respect towards you, you go and drop an inflammatory/derogatory post that requires an aggressive response.

Yes the statistics show movements and passengers are down, but my superiors at the airport are unconcerned (unconcerned is the wrong word, but I'm struggling to think up a more appropriate alternative right now) because they have identified the reasons and are actively addressing them. Furthermore, the team behind the movements website come across as unconcerned in their own report, and I trust all of these experts and professionals a damn sight more than I trust a post on pprune!!

Movements will be up for August and September, I don't think anyone can doubt that. FBO handling agents can attract traffic, I recall Weston stealing business from both Manchester and Stansted before they became complacent and to repeat myself there has been growth in business aviation both including and excluding hunting movements since Consort took over

[highwideandugly]

Ouch!

Not sure what response if any ,there should be.

I stick to official CAA statistics.
I'm sure I'm not the only one awaiting the turning of the corner.As yet it's not there?
The only positive news this year on the airline front is Loganair..I'm sure we all await to see what positive effect it has.
You mentioned a while ago part 2 of Peels master plan will be announced soon..again looking forward to the announcement and again the positive effect it has.
Finally also looking forward to your airport superiors coming forward with positive news?

Don't think anything to upset you too much there?

[SWBKCB]

and to repeat myself there has been growth in business aviation both including and excluding hunting movements since Consort took over

Be interesting to see the numbers when they're published, but while appreciating that Peel are looking to build a broad base of business, how much do biz jets add to the bottom line?

[Robert-Ryan]

Highwide...that's a bit more like it!

SWBKCB, a few grand per movement depending on length of stay

[highwideandugly]

Thanks RR. Will try my best to be more positive..honest..but reserve the right to question!!

You will be pleased to hear no internet connection for the next week,so all will be quiet from me...and no..PEEL aren't my broadband provider(joke) !

[N707ZS]

Slipping man! You missed the planning application for houses on the old airport entrance road on the military hospital site!

On the aircraft side nice to see the shiny new Eastern ATR-72 arrive.

[BAladdy]

Loganair are currently advertising for flight and cabin crew based at MME.

https://www.loganair.co.uk/about/careers/

I thought that the route would have been operated by ABZ based crews. Wonder if this could mean that Loganair are planning additional routes from MME in the future.

[tigertanaka]

"Now recruiting Pilots and Cabin Crew for our new base in Durham Tees Valley"

Interesting that they are using the phrase "our new base".

[onion]

No real difference from Easterns Base at MME though.
Why put crews up in hotels overnight when the aircraft is going to be night stopping/based at MME.
Good that they are showing commitment in advertising for based crews.

[Midland 331]

Any idea when the last F70 rotation through MME is?

[mattfalcus]

27th October, or possibly the overnighter leaving 28th October.

[mattfalcus]

Loganair are currently advertising for flight and cabin crew based at MME.

https://www.loganair.co.uk/about/careers/

I thought that the route would have been operated by ABZ based crews. Wonder if this could mean that Loganair are planning additional routes from MME in the future.

They said in their first press release that they hope to add more routes, so I guess so! :ok:

[oldart]

Back to the Air UK days. Eastern operating NWI via MME to ABZ and return. Would this make sense in the future?

[mmeman]

So the e-mail the airport sent out today was advertising the Eastern/Flybe route to Aberdeen and said that it would be on Saab 2000's.. looks like from 6th Nov the times change (very similar to Loganair departure times) so Saab 2000 from then?

[SWBKCB]

Based on recent performance, anybody predicting what type will operate on which Eastern flight is a brave man! :eek:

[mmeteesside]

Looks to me like the schedule isn't finalised yet. If it is it's very wasteful with a Saab 2000 operating to Aberdeen and back in a morning and evening, and a J41 operating up at 1000 and returning at 1600. Two aircraft based at DTV for 3 flights a day doesn't make any sort of sense

[EK77WNCL]

Certainly keeping my fingers crossed because I've just applied for cabin crew at MME with Loganair

[jamesgrainge]

Why do they state "a full clean driving license"?

I drive wagons with three points on mine, and no one cares a jot.

[canberra97]

But did you actually have those three points on your license when you applied for your job, if you had well your application may have turned out differently that's how employers are these days, hiring squeaky clean employees plus I suspect driving wagons all day means that your not in the area of taking passengers or in a public domain hence your employers not caring 'a jot'.

[jamesgrainge]

Yes I had them when I started. I think you may be slightly missing the point though, how does having 0 points affect your ability to walk around a plane?

Seems an unusual comment to make, after all, I would suggest the thousands of members of the public I attempt to safely interact with on a daily basis would care very much about the quality of my driving ability ;-)

[BAladdy]

Looks to me like the schedule isn't finalised yet. If it is it's very wasteful with a Saab 2000 operating to Aberdeen and back in a morning and evening, and a J41 operating up at 1000 and returning at 1600. Two aircraft based at DTV for 3 flights a day doesn't make any sort of sense
Looks as if T3 are planning on basing no aircraft at MME.

From the 6th November T3 will replace there current MME-ABZ and HUY-ABZ with a 3 x daily HUY-MME-ABZ service.

[SWBKCB]

Was there a water arch for the first Loganair on Monday morning? Fire service looked to be in position when I passed.

[SealinkBF]

Looking at fares ABZ-MME-HUY, it's easy to see which sector T3 are facing competition on!

[N707ZS]

SWBKCB arch was produced for the 11ish outbound, thought it would have been in the press by now. They actually managed a KLM diversion from Leeds about the same time.

The ATR-72 is still here for Eastern.

[Robert-Ryan]

Hmm, an airport email advertised a Saab2000 on the route a couple of days ago

[Jamesair]

A post on the Eastern page seems to think the MME base has closed and HUY has a Saab2000 as its new based a/c. The revised route will be HUY - MME -ABZ using the S.2000.

[VentureGo]

This Morning's Loganair flight LM642 from ABZ has diverted to Newcastle after holding above MME for quite a while.
Eastern's similarly timed flight T3581 ABZ-MME has been cancelled. (ref:FR24 not listed on Airport page)
KLM diverted to LBA

[LBIA]

KLM1533 from AMS has also diverted to LBA. Eastern must have thought it not
worthwhile operating an empty aircraft so cancelled the ABZ EZE581/582 rotation.

[JollyTraveller]

Eastern airways have most likely decided due to low visibility it is best to put passengers from the earlier flights on to the later flight.

Eastern airways has been using a ATR-72-600 with 72 seats instead of normal 29 seater BAe Jetstream 41 for this route. Because of this Eastern airways can accommodate this with ease.

I wonder what the thinking is behind the changes from 6th November.

This means Eastern Airways have merged two of their best selling routes to Aberdeen.

What does this mean for other eastern airways routes like the Leeds Bradford and Newcastle routes to Aberdeen which get less passengers? I wonder if they will be looking to merge or reduce or cancel those routes.

[P330]

Can you believe a crew training session by an EasyJet A319 made the gazette website today!

Must be a slow news day in our region.

[No-More-Bullschit]

Agreed, good publicity for the movements website though

[Robert-Ryan]

On another website it's sparked up the old debate of whether or not the income from the flight outweighs the cons of having the competition fly a massive billboard over the local towns

[oldart]

Both Loganair and Eastern's time keeping has been poor this last day or two. I can't see any reason for it, weather has not been an item. Last night Loganair placed an Saab 2000 on the route to help catch up. I think if you were a new airline on the route you would try and make a good impression to gain customers.

[inglebyboro]

Our local travel agency have just advertised a direct charter flight to Seville for a 5 day trip departing in March 2018.

Hopefully its the first of many :-)

[P330]

Yes, the Seville piece is mentioned on the Gazette website today. Talking about the first of many mini breaks offered by Super Breaks.

Good news!

[mmeteesside]

Doesn't appear to be anything planned with Newmarket or Omega for 2018 though?

[SWBKCB]

You do wonder about Peel at times - whose bright idea was it to make the statement about the airshow on the same day as the "Super Breaks" announcement? :eek:

Did they really want them virtually next to each other on the Gazette's home page? :E

[No-More-Bullschit]

The new flight was probably announced to counter the air show lies...sorry I meant news

[SWBKCB]

But surely the Seville announcement would have been co-ordinated with "Super Breaks", which could mean... :suspect:

[fjencl]

Which airline does "super break" use to provide the flights..?

[EK77WNCL]

The lowest bidder... I assume

[Jerry123]

I believe it's Enter Air.

[fjencl]

Many thanks for a proper reply

[EK77WNCL]

What was wrong with my reply? It was a tongue in cheek insinuation that it was more likely to be someone like Enter Air or Albastar than BA Cityflyer or Titan... Won't be lucrative enough

Some people need a sense of humour

[Jerry123]

Why wouldn't be lucrative enough for Titan Airways? I doubt the contract is just 1 flight but probably for the whole series of flights from quite a lot of UK regional airports and maybe the flights to Seville that they will be doing in March from quite a lot of regional airports as well. Surely Titan Airways as a charter airline would be interested in work like that?

[canberra97]

Titan Airways as a charter airline would be interested in work like that, yeah but I don't think they are the cheapest out there especially for this type of work that tends to go to the likes of Albastar, Enter Air, Small Planet, etc.

[Robert-Ryan]

Titan have a reputation as expensive, but in a positive you-get-what-you-pay-for way. As said Enter Air will operate the flights

[Robert-Ryan]

Keep him out, things will get worse not better if he gets in, Peel are doing ok at the moment aside from the air show mis-step

[GrahamK]

If they concentrate on the sub 100 seater business market then they could forge a nice wee niche for themselves. No chance for main holiday flights to return now though

[Plane.Silly]

There may still be a slim chance of main holidays. Flybe from DSA do a fair bit to Spain, so another small airport wouldn't be too out of place/ a nice niche to make here as well.

No chance of FR/LS/TCX/TOM though. with nearby LBA/NCL bases to contend with.

[inOban]

Almost none, certainly in the UK.

[N707ZS]

Dog must be lame!

[JollyTraveller]

I can't believe how many people know so little about the owners of Durham Tees Valley Airport. Peel/John Whittaker are one of the most diverse and successful businesses in UK. You just need to look at their portfolio to see how Peel has been involved in so much of the investment in North of England over the last 30 years.

Peel/John Whittaker have been one of the biggest players in shopping centres since the 80's when the process of what became the Trafford Centre was started. Peel/John Whittaker have been involved UK airport ownership since 90's when they got involved with the ownership of Liverpool airport.

Peel/John Whittaker now own 3 commercial airports all based in North of England.
The 3 airports are spread across the Northern regions of England. Liverpool Airport(North West) Doncaster Sheffield Airport (Yorkshire and Humber) Durham Tees Valley Airport (North East) This makes them one of largest players in UK airport industry by the number of commercial airports owned in the UK.

[JollyTraveller]

Does know the reason/reasons why legs for the Flybe/Eastern airways Humberside / Durham Tees Valley flights aren't being offered for sale on Humberside / Durham Tees Valley / Aberdeen route?

[rhutch28]

Dont think there would be much demand for it, dont think you could with eastern before either!

[oldart]

The only demand would be for the oil/gas industry using the connecting helicopters. How many is that?

[SWBKCB]

On the other hand, how much does it cost to put them up for sale? Don't think they'd need to sell many to cover the costs

[JollyTraveller]

Maybe Humberside is to close for flight to work with it only being around 2 hours by road.


I just thought with all the business/work links between the two areas it may have been worth trying to sell some seats on those flights considering the flights are already schedule to take place.

[01475]

Because a seat sold between Humberside and Teesside is a seat you can't sell for much much more to Aberdeen?

[SWBKCB]

I'd suggest only a hypothetical issue for Eastern...:O

[mmeteesside]

If it is to be operated by a Saab 2000, even if the previous J41 flights were full (unlikely!) that still leaves 21 seats empty between Humberside & DTV. I can't imagine it's going to cost a whole lot extra to carry paying passengers on this leg? Even if they only pick up 4 or 5 it's going to cover costs surely

[01475]

I'd suggest only a hypothetical issue for Eastern...:O

True!

I guess that for that distance you could also just get a taxi for what Eastern would want to charge, and that if you factor in even the shortest check-in time and starting off any distance all from the airport, the time penalty wouldn't be that high.

[highwideandugly]

Big announcement due today from DTV/PEEL ?.

[ara01jbb]

Press conference started about an hour ago, launching airport's new 'Flying for the Future' campaign. Perhaps also an update to the (2014?) strategic plan...?

[GrahamK]

Free unlimited wifi is the big announcement? :ouch:

[highwideandugly]

Stand down guys..no new news...

[Robert-Ryan]

A little underwhelming as I too hoped for new routes, I was starting to think my co-workers had got it wrong, though they're still adamant they're coming and even the bosses at the press event today were not shying away from dropping strong hints :D

Amazing new website launched as well today Durham Tees Valley Airport ? Flying for the future (http://dtva.info/)

The PDF puts Beafer back down in the ground where he belongs, sorry pal but Peel are committed owners whether you like it or not

[highwideandugly]

Heavy bed time reading for all!!
Some impressive graphics and text!!

As expected many of the forecasts are out of date already..it’s amazing the progress some airports have made in the last 12 months.Think that portion needs updating.
However on the whole it’s a pretty good document and web site.
Now as always the proof of the pudding.....

[Robert-Ryan]

I would argue the document addresses that sufficiently, and my understanding is it's only been created in the last few weeks so out of date it most definitely is not.

What is it todays kids say? "Haters gonna hate..." :rolleyes:

[No-More-Bullschit]

Is it true that Peel got the airport for “next to nothing”?
At the point of acquisition by The Peel Group in 2003, DTVA was making a loss of circa half a million pounds per annum. In addition, the business was carrying significant historic cost burdens including large pension liabilities. This would of course be reflected in the value of the business. And the value was set by the local authorities at the time.
Airports are renowned for their large capital expenditure requirements. At DTVA, The Peel Group has invested in:
– Fire vehicles – Airfield resurfacing – Air traffic control radar enhancements – X-ray security equipment – Car park extensions and surfacing
This list is far from exhaustive. In addition to £26 million in capital investment, much of which is not necessarily obvious to the travelling public, the business has borne the entirety of the annualised financial losses creating an investment of over £36 million, relieving the local authority and taxpayer of this burden.
They definitely read this forum!

[highwideandugly]

Out of date example,only used Newcastle as nearest but forecasting today’s passenger figures as being reached in 2030!! Assume other airport figures are out.
DTV shows around 200k. While real time is down at 1972 levels 130 k. Ish...and the recent CAA stats for August and September make pretty depressing reading.

Just an example as I say ..I’m sure the majority is factually correct if it’s just been completed.

[Robert-Ryan]

Awww he thinks his posts are valid and have beaten mine, bless him

[highwideandugly]

Needs to be a sound business case to change the name back to TEESSIDE airport..eh..sorry..look at the past few years figures..sound..I think so...ok maybe not the main problem but..hey,Maybe it could help? Comon guys even the road signs haven’t changed??
It’s a tough world out there,let’s get back to basics..


Instead of spending millions on web sites,promotions,false promises....talk to the airlines...give the locals what they want..flights to Palma,Alicante et al. Take a two year loss ? on infrastructure and promotion and

flights to get back to basics?
Other airports do it so why not here..or as others have said...is there really an ulterior motive?

[No-More-Bullschit]

Highwideandugly, not entirely sure what you're going on about, as per? The name has no bearing on the level of demand that exists, websites don't cost millions and are you serious suggesting that Peel should NOT be running promotions?! And as for talking to the airlines, I bet they didn't think of that one! If they didn't talk to airlines Loganair would not be here, and clearly Robert believes more must be on the way enough for there to be some foundation to it

[highwideandugly]

Sorry it was a bit garbage having re read my post.

It states there’s must be a sound business case to change the name back to Teesside airport.
My argument meant to read surely declining passengers and movements are a good enough business case to revert to Teesside name? It obviously hasn’t worked.Yes I know that’s not the only reason but it might just help give the airport it’s identity back.

BTW you mention Loganair..have you seen some of the actual loads on these ,up to 7 flights per day..can’t see both airlines continuing next summer.
Look forward to the next route announcements..

[N707ZS]

Teesside is old and out dated, you will probably find most young people don't know what you are talking about. The whole area which was once Cleveland has been dissected into an identity farce!
Durham Tees Valley it is, unless they change it to James Cook, George Reynaulds or Chris Rea international to match the other two Peel Airports.

[EK77WNCL]

To be honest I'd much sooner go with Vic Reeves International, or perhaps "Darlington 'Chubby' Brown International"

Joking aside "Stephenson International" whilst rather vague, would be more than suitable with the region's heritage in my opinion. Or even "Stockton and Darlington International" as a throwback to the old railway company.

[highwideandugly]

I suppose unless you have the flights then the name almost becomes irrelevant.Most people know where they need to go and will request through their travel agent or Sus out on the computer.
Chicken and egg,provide the flights and they will come( and go)?

[Plane.Silly]

Beafer, 4 posts in a row, 3 of which have outdated links? i know you've got an agenda going on, but you might want to calm down a bit

[N707ZS]

Dog must be sick or his wise has left him!

[VentureGo]

Beafer - I am no supporter of Peel and their methods either, but you seriously need to be careful with some of your comments in your posts (#129,#130,#131 etc..) You could still be prosecuted if your comments are deemed defamatory against individuals, organisations, companies etc... Be responsible and careful with comments.

[N707ZS]

VentureGo, think he's finally flipped!

[Robert-Ryan]

Nothing more than spam. Mods please could you intervene again?

To coin another phrase - he who shouts loudest has lost

[Robert-Ryan]

and held responsible for actions
I think that's the key, people think Peel need holding responsible but they do not, that's why they've felt a need to release yesterdays godsend PDF document in the first place

[SWBKCB]

godsend PDF document

I've generally been supportive of the masterplan, believing that Liverpool is a better example of what Peel can do at an airport than Sheffield City which oftern gets quoted - mind you Peel can make it hard work at times and there's the usual gems in the document...

Peel has only ever been interested in the land and has deliberately driven the passenger traffic down to build houses on the runway. Is it true Peel will make millions from housing?

The northside residential properties will not jeopardise the infrastructure and capability of the airport in any form, as the land earmarked for development
is unsuitable for aviation purposes.

Yes, but the land includes part of the current terminal car park, boxes in the terminal area and abuts part of the active airfield with possible future implications

Is it true that the airport is not interested in developing holiday flights and that Thomson was forced to leave?

The business had a longstanding and strong relationship with TUI and Balkan Holidays but it was agreed with those partners that DTVA could not operate their ad-hoc departures without continued losses.

I bet TUI and BH find "agreed with" and "ad hoc" to be interesting choice of words...

If Peel pulled out of the airport, other businesses could operate the business and would surely be willing to do so?

the main UK regional airport’s are not seen as attractive business opportunities.

The recent buyer of LBA clearly doesn't think so. The quoted examples of Coventry, Manston, Blackpool and Plymouth aren't really comparable to DTVA.


Is it true that Peel got the airport for “next to nothing”?

Airports are renowned for their large capital expenditure requirements. At DTVA, The Peel Group has invested in:
–– Fire vehicles
–– Airfield resurfacing
–– Air traffic control radar enhancements
–– X-ray security equipment
–– Car park extensions and surfacing

I think the general public accepts that there will be an element of renewal, meeting statutory requirements but would also expect the term 'investment' to include an element of expansion and enhancement.

You could go on - the section on airline and tour operator history is a bit one-eyed (and ignores Globespan completely) e.g.


Ryanair withdrew services to Dublin following the introduction of an Irish Tourism Tax,...Ryanair have reduced or removed capacity in many UK regional airports since pre-recession

and have expanded at others...

Balkan Holidays operated successfully from the airport for a number of years intermittently with mixed success.

what?

Wizz Air also ceased services at Bournemouth and Coventry airports at a similar time.

and have expanded at others...

[zed3]

We live in Scarborough which is more or less equidistant from DTV, Leeds and Humberside. We use KLM frequently having lived in The Netherlands and having family there. Leeds has the best flight schedule but whereas when we moved over four years ago it took just over 90 mins. driving time it now takes two hours or more. Humberside is just under two hours but fewer flights and more expensive (industry prices?). DTV is a problem vis a vis access. The road network is a twisting nightmare and getting through Yarm is a disaster, especially when the mummies are picking up from school in the BMW or Benz. Forty-five minutes from the lights at the top to the lights exiting, at the last attempt. So LBA it will be for the near future but DTV would be a doddle if the access was organised properly.

[highwideandugly]

The Facts...

August....+1% passengers. Actually. Plus.
71 passengers
Amsterdam. Squits....
Aberdeen. Minus 3% @ 1463

September

Minus12% 10466 pax

Aberdeen -13%
Amsterdam -9%
Domestic total -20%

Sorry guys something has to improve..and soon or PEEL will be gone??

[highwideandugly]

Sorry meant to add..in the all encompassing football world as the Echo said today....if this was the Boro ,mackems or any other club..they (management) would be long gone....

[N707ZS]

zed3 have you tried A171, A174, A66 straight to DTVA no idea why you are going through Yarm.

[Robert-Ryan]

Figures are set to improve and since when is an airport comparable to a football club :ugh:

[zed3]

N707ZS... thanks for that. I was trying to avoid Middlesborough, wrongly it seems!

[highwideandugly]

RR- not sure my self re the football analogy with the airport..it was a Northern Echo quote..however possibly some mileage in that??

What I am intrigued by is your prophecy of increased passenger figures..All time low this year since 1972..so I suppose any increase will be welcome..not sure where it’s going to come from? Aberdeen in the short term until one of the two airlines pull off the route.Amsterdam..slightly bigger aircraft,but loads are static if not declining,last month at least.
Losing Newmarket and Omega short term charter flights is a big loss?
Look forward to seeing what the new Short Break holiday company provide..Seville so far.
Unless PEEL have something up their sleeve...

[Robert-Ryan]

Yes my dig was aimed at the Northern Echo article, there is no comparison whatsoever, two completely different entities with completely different ergonomics (I think that's the right word).

Based on my observations (and admittedly I only see perhaps just over one third of the flights), Loganair appear to be doing slightly better than I for one expected, and whilst Loganair are winning the battle Eastern have also seen an increase brought on by their arrival and they are very close behind, so I expect passenger figures on Aberdeen to rocket. It might not show on Octobers figures, but Novembers will make for interesting reading I'm sure. If current levels maintain I would imagine we'll keep both operators.

[onion]

I think the Aberdeen will depend very much on what deals Bristow (Eastern) and Bond (Loganair) have and what the yields are rather than loads... there could be a situation where the flights are paid for before anyone sits down!

[JollyTraveller]

Bond Offshore Helicopters became a Babcock International Group company when Babcock acquired the Avincis group in May 2014. It's now called Babcock Mission Critical Services Offshore.

I don't think either flight are linked directly to the heliports or helicopters operators.

It's going to be interesting see the new figures for Durham Tees Valley - Aberdeen. Now the extra flights have started and the Humberside passengers are now going via Durham Tees Valley Airport.

Before the downturn in O&G both Durham Tees Valley And Humberside were each carrying over 35,000 per year on their Aberdeen routes.

[highwideandugly]

Jolly thanks for that info.

Trying to get my head round 35k passengers between DTV and ABZ,what year was that?
Amazing as it’s now less than 1500 per month!

[JollyTraveller]

Those passenger numbers are from 2014.

Durham Tees Valley airports catchment area has the most people working offshore in North Sea after Aberdeenshire.

Because of the history of the heavy industry in the catchment area of Durham Tees Valley airport lots people work away from home.

[highwideandugly]

The new mayor of Teesside(with a form of government backing?) would like to buy DTV .

PEEL. Would like to retain their interest..

So we have 2 suitors..comon Guys,let’s recap and see what the future holds and what is the best for the area...

Before you all shout..there are so many postings on this issue it’s hard to keep up,so let’s précis for all?

[SWBKCB]

First question to ask is what's the Mayor budget?

Next would be is an airport the sort of thing he should be spending it on?

[N707ZS]

Mayor cannot afford it.

[highwideandugly]

Yes but he’s not paying it out of his salary!!! Does he actually have a budget..or more realistically do the local authorities have an airport budget..probably not?

So round one to PEEL with their massive backing...and bank balance.

Round 2 anyone?

[SWBKCB]

Round 2 to the public at the next mayoral elections?

Also, what would the mayor do if he bought it? I would suggest that making it easier for the good people of Teesside to go on holiday isn't a great use of public money, so the "public interest" argument would be to increase the regionals global connectivity to attract inward investment and facilitate international trade.

So what routes do you need - maybe LHR? While BA would be the preferred operator they already fly out of LBA and NCL, so you're probably looking at a flyBe DHC-8 type operation (if you can get the slots). Where else - DUB? Again EI would be the preferred operator, but again they fly from LBA and NCL.

What other options are there?

[Robert-Ryan]

In a time when local authorities are told by central government to deliver x millions in savings every year or whatever, you can't have Mayors going around taking on facilities that lose 2 million per annum.

And as SWBKCB hints, he wouldn't be able to do any better or any more than Peel, or at least not without upping the annual loss which is no way to run a business.

[highwideandugly]

So still on round 2. Looks like the mayor is on a loser?
So all eggs in the PEEL basket...?
Round 3....PEEL, Mayor. Or maybe another way.?

Some great input on this forum...outside the box anyone?

[N707ZS]

The deal provides for the transfer of significant powers for employment and skills, transport, planning and investment from central government to the Tees Valley. It paves the way for further devolution over time and for the reform of public services to be led by Tees Valley. It enables the Combined Authority to create an Investment Fund, through a 30 year initial allocation of funding for capital financing of at least £15 million a year. Tees Valley will in addition have access to the Local Growth Fund and will benefit from new Enterprise Zones, subject to the current bidding round.


This document says at least £15 million a year to fund everything a mayor desires! So won't cover the cost of buying an airport. Might get him Fishburn.

[VentureGo]

Debate on Future of Durham Tees Valley Airport is taking place in Westminster Hall, Houses of Parliament on Wednesday 22nd November by Phil Wilson MP (Newton Aycliffe) Scheduled at 11.00am - 11.30am
https://calendar.parliament.uk/calendar/Commons/All/2017/11/22/Daily

Should be available to watch on line at Parliament TV: Parliamentlive.tv - Guide (http://parliamentlive.tv/Guide)

[Plane.Silly]

Just before the budget and PMQ's. Everyone will be gearing up for those, meaning the DTV debate may be completely overlooked and not get the attention it probably deserves

[VentureGo]

Future of Durham Tees Valley airport debate at Westminster Hall this morning:

Parliamentlive.tv - Westminster Hall (http://parliamentlive.tv/Event/Index/43f33242-7197-4807-a49d-f9bc5a0d0708)

Starts at approx. 11:00:26 (time bar at bottom of screen, when clicked on) following debate on the Roll-out of broadband to rural communities in Scotland.

[Robert-Ryan]

A very good debate and Phil Wilson as far as MPs go was very clued up on the subject matter. All very factual.

Beafer, as usual way off the mark again and despite last weeks Your Questions Answered document answering the land sale issue quite satisfactorily he continues to raise it :rolleyes:

[highwideandugly]

Interesting 30 mins...it was actually just like watching a PPrune DTV thread!!

Not a lot of new information but still dotted the tees(joke) and crossed the eyes...

On we go...

[EGPO]

The owners need to eat humble pie and get TUI back free of charge - abolish the pax and if there is one cargo fee.
Local council could sit a HUY buy in a fair share .
Releasing capital.
IF TUI came back year round routes. As pointed out on a different forum and airport Business only won't help numbers .
They need freight too.
And now they have Loganair where are those new routes they implied ?.
When an airport is seeing numbers equivalent to 1970.
( A time of Viscounts and Heralds) - when Palma was exotic and a Tiny 737-200 if you were lucky.
Your doing not doing things wrong but need imho to be open minded and flexible ..
And that's keeping arguments about land use out of it.
Apologies for auto correct plus a quickly typed reply while tired.

Let's open this question , leave aside land use who did What n where.

What could DTV offer, what business in the area could be exploited .

HUY Has a similar setup ( though they didn't scare away holiday traffic ).
But they do have heafty Large Helicopter traffic to the rigs .

[Robert-Ryan]

EGPO I'm somewhat flabbergasted by your post...yes *if* TUI came back with year round routes that would probably be all well and good, but it's because they couldn't/wouldn't that Peel had to ask them to leave in the first place! And to ask where Loganairs additional routes are in a demanding tone after just two months is ridiculous, give them half a chance!

If you're going to claim we're "doing things very wrong", at least have a full understanding of our situation first!!

[EGPO]

With respect I've read my post word for word . At no point do I say not was I suggesting your doing it wrong.
Don't jump down my throat with all due respect because you assume I meant it negatively.
Crikey it was a suggestion as an outsider on what might improve things .
This is why I hardly post on here because I seriously doubt the way people verbally abuse and accuse one another. alleged adults with a common interest in seeing aviation flourish astounds me .

[Robert-Ryan]

With respect I've read my post word for word . At no point do I say not was I suggesting your doing it wrong.

Your doing things very wrong.

Seriously? :hmm:

[EGPO]

Seriously? :hmm:
Ok humble pie I assure you that was auto corect. And a case of a half typed word :( .

[SWBKCB]

Mayor urged to pull plug on 'fanciful' airport plan - but he's having none of it - Gazette Live (http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/mayor-urged-pull-plug-fanciful-13940638)

[canberra97]

Ok humble pie I assure you that was auto corect. And a case of a half typed word :( .

Plus the 'endless amount of UNNECESSARY full stops' in your fragmented comments, surely that can't all be down to 'auto correct' or tiredness!

I think that the majority of us use auto correct but it's still useful to check before posting just in case there are any mistakes or errors in the grammar.

[highwideandugly]

Could some up-to speed kind person please give an update on the progress!

Housing..when?
Change of ownership is it possible?
Further PEEL plans re the master plan.

I know these things take time but as the September passenger and movement figures have shown..the plug hole is widening and will take some filling.

[SWBKCB]

Ok – lets look at the options.

Peel and the Masterplan – basically “sweating the assets” or making the whole site work. Some people seem to regard Peel as the work of the devil, and oft quote Sheffield City as an example why, but I prefer to look at the Liverpool example. Underused sprawling wasteland transformed into a modern airport with extensive non-aviation usage of surplus land. Trust me, as somebody who remembers what it was like before the whole area has been transformed. Sounds good, doesn’t it?

Big question is why hasn’t it happened already if the DTVA site is so promising? The need to sell land for housing to fund the development of the rest of the site has always sounded a bit weak to me. As other posters remind us, Peel aren’t short of a bob or two and aren’t shy on investing it when the see an opportunity. This suggests to me that the business case for the rest of the site must be quite weak.

Other issues with the Masterplan? No problem with the housing as such but putting it where it is would seem to constrain the future development of the terminal and other aviation activity, so there’s a question mark there.


So – you’ve got the money from the housing, what are you going to do with it? Attract airlines? Who?


Business flights - see my previous response at #155 around the scope for business flights. So what else?


IT - TOM operate single a/c bases at comparable airports such as ABZ, NWI and EXT but DTVA don’t seem to think that is the way to make money. TCX don’t seem interested in smaller airports.

LCC – nobody has jumped into Globespans shoes and the major players seem to well established in the North and South of the region (trying to avoid mentioning NCL and LBA!), so you would be looking at a left field player like Blue Air out of Liverpool (a Peel airport). The only other alternative would seem to a CWL/DSA type deal with flyBe – again something Peel are familiar with, but if it was going to happen wouldn’t it have happened by now?

Freight - ideally you’d be tempting a UPS/DHL/FedEx (Amazon?) to set up a hub type operation on the southside, but unless it's just a transshipment point, isn't MME in the wrong place as little local demand - and isn’t Finningley far better placed? More likely is some sort of Carlisle logistics park with just a tenuous aviation link (is there still the planning constraints to aviation related activity?)


So if not airlines, what other aviation activity


Corporate hangars etc. The Northeast isn’t exactly awash with corporate jet operators looking for a home, so where’s the business coming from? Hangarage for medium/long stay visitors doesn’t seem like a great earner.

Painting/maintenance/scrapping on the southside – if so what? With so much competition you'd probably have to build somebody a facility and pay them to come in. Sycamore might have been a hope but their focus seems to be elsewhere.


And if not the Peel Masterplan – what else? The Mayor? Same questions as before – has he got the money, if he has is an airport the sort of thing he should be spending it on, and what would he do different?

Other operators – who’s out there buying regional airports?


Scottish Govt/Welsh Govt? seems unlikely….

AMP have just bought Leeds and have a significant shareholding in NCL, so again, unlikely.

The Rigby Group own EXT, NWI, etc. and are rumourred to be looking at BOH – similar airports, so is he a possibility?

But no matter who owns the airport, you come back to the same points - the airport is in a relatively poor, relatively small region with two larger, well-established rivals 50/60 miles away

[JollyTraveller]

I’m not reading too much into September’s passenger figures forAberdeen because Eastern Airways has had a lot crewing issues for the last fewmonths, which meant flights got cancelled, lots flights got operated by AISusing a smaller 19 seater BAe Jetstream 32 and some flights went from DTVA via Newcastleor Norwich via DTVA or Humberside via DTVA, you then have the odd divertedflight to take into account, all of this effects the figures.
I'm not 100%sure how some these figures get reported.
It seems that many airports report different figures for thesame routes.
We know the Aberdeen route has too much capacity.
Loganair are offer 1056 seats over 32 flights per week using33 seater Saab 340B. (55,000 seats per year).
Flybe/Eastern airways are currently using a 50 seater Saab2000 & 29 seater Bae Jetstream 41. Offering 20 flights per week on the Saab 2000 isseats 1,000 per week and 10 flights per week on BAe Jetstream 41 is 290 seats per week. The flightsare being operated between Humberside & Aberdeen via Durham Tees valley.

Currently the Durham Tees Valley - Aberdeen routes has capacityfor 2346 seats per week, if continued this world give an annual capacity ofjust under 122,000 seats. It's lot seats to fill even with the extra passenger numbers passengers coming from Humberside and Norwich to make that work in the long run.

[JollyTraveller]

I wonder Peel would be interested in buying or taking part ownership of an airline or setting one up. Peel own 3 airports and each them has spare capacity to fill and the land to house an airline. Flybe Group only has a Market Capitalisation of £76 Million and it is already rumoured airport groups are looking at them.

[highwideandugly]

Thanks SWBKCB and RR great posts,as I said it’s always good to get a resume of where we are it.

Whatever and as always,interesting times ahead!!

Re the Aberdeen stats..currently around 1500 per month or 18000 per year.Capacity quoted as approx 122000! Who will lose their nerve first I wonder!!

[SWBKCB]

Yes - fair comment from R-R, two sides to every story, and it's just as valid to say why haven't Peel just cut their losses and dumped the airport, they must see something worthwhile.

I'm still not convinced that the recent terminal developments etc weren't down to keeping KLM happy, they really are crucial.

As in all these things, nothing is ever black and white and there is no silver bullet answer - though the economy of the North East really kicking on wouldn't do any harm!.

[fjencl]

https://www.euroweeklynews.com/3.0.15/news/on-euro-weekly-news/gibraltar-news/146556-charter-flights-from-uk-airports-to-gibraltar-trialled-next-july

[N707ZS]

Strange no announcement from the airport in the local rags.

[JollyTraveller]

This very positive news to read. The real interesting bits for me are:

"The flights are set to operate twice a week for four weeks in July from Belfast International, Humberside, Exeter, Bournemouth, Durham Tees Valley and East Midlands Airport."

"Chris Hagan, Head of Propositions for Super Break, said they were confident the sales of the initial seven departures would be successful, and if this was the case they would not hesitate to extend the programme even further."


"This charter programme will deliver much needed leisure business to Gibraltar. Whilst it may not cure the current gap in seat only capacity it will go a long way to restore business to the local tourism industry."

“Gibraltar is already one of our Top Ten short break destinations and by adding this exclusive capacity we hope to further cement our position as the UK’s specialist Gibraltar short break operator. What is particularly exciting about this programme is that we will be operating services from several UK regions which have never seen direct service to Gibraltar such as North East England and Northern Ireland whilst re-introducing, albeit in a small way, a connection for leisure travellers from areas such as the Midlands who have recently lost their connectivity following the very unfortunate demise of Monarch.”

It will be interesting to which aircraft type Superbreak decide to use. I know Gib airport has a environment which means the airport has set requirements / restrictions on pilot and aircraft type.
I noticed the other airlines mostly use Airbus A320 which fits Durham Tees Valley Airports operation levels perfect.

Gib set for ?Super Break? charter flights next summer ? Gibraltar Chronicle (http://chronicle.gi/2017/11/gib-set-for-super-break-charter-flights-next-summer/)

[N707ZS]

Think A320 is too big for me more an ERJ 170 or SSJ route, we shall see.

[JollyTraveller]

Don't forget these are the only direct flight from North East of England. So there will be no direct competition for passengers from Newcastle Airport or Leeds Bradford Airport to this destination.

[highwideandugly]

Interesting and welcome news...little confused..is this a change in policy and tact from PEEL..I thought they had stated a concentration on business routes?
GIB is a big void in the NE. Could be a winner?

Of course that means more staff all round.. so more outgoings..which correct me if I am wrong..PEEL threw out established operators?

New times and the fight back begins?..

[N707ZS]

Why would they need more staff?

[Robert-Ryan]

It will be interesting to which aircraft type Superbreak decide to use. I know Gib airport has a environment which means the airport has set requirements / restrictions on pilot and aircraft type.
I noticed the other airlines mostly use Airbus A320 which fits Durham Tees Valley Airports operation levels perfect.

Prior to their collapse Monarch were planning on retaining their A320s to allow continued operation into Gibraltar, as 737s I believe are right on the brink of what can be handled, that said Enter Air recently landed one and interestingly that's who Super Break are using on the Seville route...

Of course that means more staff all round.. so more outgoings..which correct me if I am wrong..PEEL threw out established operators?
I think this will fall into the same category as the one-off charters despite being a little bit more elaborate. I think it all comes down to how much an operator is willing to pay, something which the big operators such as TUI think is beneath them.

[GrahamK]

The way it reads is that it'll be a one off flight from most of those airports listed, with one of them, probably EMA or BFS, getting 2 departures.

[SWBKCB]

I think it all comes down to how much an operator is willing to pay, something which the big operators such as TUI think is beneath them.

R-R - can you clarify, were TUI not meeting the terms of the contract they had with Peel?

[Robert-Ryan]

I'm sure they were, but thanks to Ryanair such operators expect everything for nothing all of the time.

[JollyTraveller]

It's been a tough 10 years for North East airports, Leeds Bradford and Newcastle have been having a crazy war to win business from airlines and tour operators. They have been offering loss making deals on the landing fees and airport charges to win that business.

It looks like Peel Group made a smart move by keeping Durham Tees Valley out of this battle, It now looks to be coming to end now AMP own both Leeds Bradford and Newcastle. This may mean airlines start looking at using Durham Tees Valley Airport again to keep the landing fees and airport charges lower at Newcastle and Leeds Bradford.

[highwideandugly]

JT.. Are you quite sure no incentives are in place for Loganair?..

It has been a tough year for them you are right..record breaking passengers and movements at both airports..Newcastle just passed 5,000,000 in November for the year,earliest in 10 years..and meanwhile DTV struggles to reach 1972 levels..am I missing something in your post?

[JollyTraveller]

Highwideandugly,

I don't know what incentives are in place for Loganair but I'm sure something will be offered for them basing operations at any airport at an agreed set level. Loganair are planning to open a base at Durham Tees Valley Airport early 2018. Not sure what new routes they plan to operate from Durham Tees Valley.

You seem to missing the point that Newcastle airport and Leeds Bradford airport have built up huge debts while trying get the business from Airlines / Tour operates. Durham Tees Valley Airport hasn't built up huge debts.

Newcastle Airports passengers numbers have also been down for the last 10 years. Newcastle had 5,431,976 passengers back in 2006. Newcastle airport has less passengers from it had back 2006 & 2007(5,650,716) and the debts & liabilities have continued to grow. Nial Group Limited last accounts (group of companies accounts made up to 31 December 2016) published on 27th September 2017 at companies house show barrowings of £362,150,000.

It now looks like AMP Capital have started a finance recover plan which has seen them take control of Leeds Bradford airport and take on debts & liabilities of that airport, but it now means AMP Capital can increase the landing fees and airport charges at both airports.

[SWBKCB]

So are you saying that AMP have effectively cornered the North East market and will start to co-ordinate prices to improve returns, meaning airlines will look to DTVA as an alternative?

[LBIA]

You may find that with AMP Capital reportedly paying off some if not all its debts owned as part of the deal when it acquired LBA from Bridgepoint Capital, They will now be in an even better position to offer new and improved incentives to the airlines and tour operators to set up shop there

[JollyTraveller]

"So are you saying that AMP have effectively cornered the North East market and will start to co-ordinate prices to improve returns, meaning airlines will look to DTVA as an alternative? "

The main problem AMP face at both airports is the huge debt and losses. They need find a balance that means they make enough profit to start paying the growing debts back. The easiest way for AMP to achieve this will be to start increasing the landing fees and airport charges at both airports as the current deals end.

Once that starts happening it is more likely that surrounding airports like Durham Tees Valley, Doncaster Sheffield, Humberside, Manchester will start picking up some routes that would have went Newcastle airport and Leeds Bradford airport.

"You may find that with AMP Capital reportedly paying off some if not all its debts owned as part of the deal when it acquired LBA from Bridgepoint Capital, They will now be in an even better position to offer new and improved incentives to the airlines and tour operators to set up shop there "

Less debt will make it easier to make profit at Leeds Bradford Airport but the airports business still needs make a lot money before AMP see any profit on the deal. The crazy incentives are the main reason Leeds Bradford has lost over £100 million in the last 10 years.


Leeds Bradford airport is going need more support from Newcastle airport because Leeds Bradford has lot more competition for passengers & flights due to its location. It's also held back by poor location and facilities.

[SWBKCB]

The main problem AMP face at both airports is the huge debt and losses.

Debts only a problem if you can't repay it and it starts constraining the business, if it's being invested into assets which grow the business it can be a good thing.

[highwideandugly]

WAs the KLM Diversion due to xwinds and cleared runway width/ breaking action?

[No-More-Bullschit]

Looking at the NOTAMs the airport was SNOCLO briefly today, and when the runway was open some taxiways were on and off closed. Suppose this is the queue for the armchair experts to start with the "little bit of snow and the place grinds to a halt" posts now...:rolleyes:

[EGPO]

These Debts are very substantial and will only grow, given the under reported brewing war between Saudi and it's Allies and Iran.
That would push up oil prices and may cause routes to be cut.
Airlines come and go seems madness to begin so much debt at NCL then buy LBA with terrible debt and some vain hope of building a new taxiway and runway/ terminal extensions.
If Monarch went owing less.
What happens to the airports ( genuine question I'm not up on this stuff ) do they go bankrupt.
In that event is there protection to keep them running or do they shut up shop ?
Didn't a couple of new Spanish airports one ended up a ruin. But both went under before opening .
Only Castelon has a few flights now .
Ryanair being in there.

[N707ZS]

This debate is on the wrong thread! As far as I know Monarch were paid to fly from LBA, so they owed nothing, perhaps the airport lost revenue from returning passengers.

[Hussar 54]

While looking for stats about Reddish South Station ( one train / one way / one day per week !! ) I came across this today.

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/2017/12/01/no-platform-overcrowding-as-least-used-british-railway-station-n/


Presumably car parking is fairly cheap at DTV, then....

[N707ZS]

First three hours free then not sure after that. Stations in the wrong place anyway.

[01475]

Have you seen the timetable for Tees-side Airport Railway station?

Sundays only if I recall correctly: Realtime Trains | Departures from Tees-side Airport (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/TEA/2017/12/03/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt)

Not really a viable alternative to car parking no matter what the cost! Looking at arrivals and departures, it looks like it could work if you wanted to fly Loganair to Norwich on a Sunday, and return from Amsterdam by KLM the next Sunday...

[SWBKCB]

These Debts are very substantial and will only grow, given the under reported brewing war between Saudi and it's Allies and Iran.
That would push up oil prices and may cause routes to be cut.
Airlines come and go seems madness to begin so much debt at NCL then buy LBA with terrible debt and some vain hope of building a new taxiway and runway/ terminal extensions.

If only one of Australia's largest investment companies had access to your advice...:rolleyes:

ps. are Saudi and Iran really involved in a "brewing war"? Seems unlikely...:ok:

[LEEDS APPROACH]

It is generally accepted now by those in the know that this place is heading towards housing/industrial estate due to the tiny, not very wealthy population catchment. Just like with Yeadon (Leeds Bradford Airport) and Finningley (Doncaster Airport) who also have very passionate enthusiasts it will be a sad but inevitable and desperately needed progression for Yorkshire and the Greater North East. A ONE airport solution for Yorkshire will stop the North East falling even further behind the rest of the country economically speaking. Let's stop the bickering and unite.

[SWBKCB]

Give it a rest - the north of England has a world class airport at MAN, your blinkered divide and rule dreams would only benefit the south :yuk:

[Robert-Ryan]

Leeds approach - it's only accepted by those NOT in the know! Heading towards [solely] housing and industrial estates is not bringing new airlines and operators in, is not refurbishing terminals, is not investing 4 mil+ in a new radar and another couple of mil on new security screening kit, is not releasing websites debunking all of said myths. Wake up man

[pug]

Robert-Ryan, LA is a deluded troll with the sole agenda of Yorkshire - read as Leeds - having one major airport at Church Fenton.

I think we've all been guilty of feeding it recently. Hopefully it will go away soon. Ironically, there's is more chance of a housing estate being built on the airfield at CF than there is at any of the other airports mentioned in trolls' posts.

[Hussar 54]

Have you seen the timetable for Tees-side Airport Railway station?

Sundays only if I recall correctly: Realtime Trains | Departures from Tees-side Airport (http://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/search/advanced/TEA/2017/12/03/0000-2359?stp=WVS&show=pax-calls&order=wtt)

Not really a viable alternative to car parking no matter what the cost! Looking at arrivals and departures, it looks like it could work if you wanted to fly Loganair to Norwich on a Sunday, and return from Amsterdam by KLM the next Sunday...


Now that's hilarious.....

[EK77WNCL]

If trains were to be made more regular into Teesside, could they not consider offering a free (or reasonably priced) shuttle bus to the Terminal door?

They'd probably need to knock the station down and start again though, to be fair.

[SWBKCB]

Didn't there used to be one? Think there would need to be more flights for it to be sustainable.

[N707ZS]

Who left the toilet seat up! Something got out that needs flushing!

[jetstar.8]

Didn't there used to be one? Think there would need to be more flights for it to be sustainable.

They had a electric mini bus in the late 70s
that ran between the station and terminal

[anthbower1234]

Ambassador Airways are due to launch a full summer charter programme from MME!.....oh wait its not 1994. Give up our little local airport is done.

[EK77WNCL]

Anth, I will fully agree with you IF Loganair is a flop... As long as Loganair commit to setting up and expanding the base come 2018, I reckon there's life in her yet

The day Loganair pull out, I agree, she's dead

[SWBKCB]

Loganair? KLM's the only game in town.

[01475]

An airport needs more than KLM though. Even Manston kept KLM...

[SWBKCB]

Lose KLM and the airport loses all credibility - in terms of regional politics and economic impact, what's the point of the airport if it can't deliver that globally connectivity? How many of the recent investments have been to keep KLM happy?

[N707ZS]

A few KLM flights have been cancelled recently, heard some mention of fog at Amsterdam. Anyone know anymore?

[JollyTraveller]

It seems a fair few flights have been cancelled and delayed today at Amsterdam Schiphol not just Durham Tees Valley.

It seems that Durham Tees Valley is one of the first routes to be affected when flights get cancelled due to weather / reduced landing slots at Amsterdam Schiphol.

I suspect it's because KLM know they have no competition to worry about at Durham Tees Valley so make the decision to cancel that ahead others routes which they have a chance of losing costumers to other airlines / routes.

I guess they also have to factor in the size of the aircraft, what the load was for the flights, onward connections passengers, how passengers can be accommodated on alternative flights / including use of other local airports with KLM flights to Amsterdam Schiphol, cost of cancelling flight i.e. compensation etc, airport landing fees and charges.

i.e. KLM decide to cancel a Durham Tees Valley flight. They contact passengers and offer alternatives of compensation / costs plus a seat from / too Durham Tees Valley Airport on earlier or later flight or seats on flights from / too Newcastle airport or Leeds Bradford airport.

KLM won't cancel the route because it makes them a lot of money. If routes like Durham Tees Valley were cancelled it would have a negative affect on other flights / routes from Amsterdam Schiphol because most of the passengers are connection passenger and most will be going onto another KLM ticket coded flight.

[SWBKCB]

Loganair have applied for six Saturday flights from Guernsey next summer. Appears to be a 'W' on a S.2000, not the based S.340


https://www.gov.gg/CHttpHandler.ashx?id=111113&p=0

[EGPO]

A new route !. Short length but it's a start I fear those listed ticket prices for even a reasonably wealthy couple will be questionable as to if filling a Saab2000 will work?.
But good luck all round.

[N707ZS]

Listed ticket prices are from Glasgow.

[GrahamK]

Good route for MME to get given that GCI is currently unserved from the region

[JollyTraveller]

Guernsey should do well from DTVA. The Jersey flights are always full. If the positive news keeps coming we will soon be talking airport expansion.;)

[LTNman]

It would never happen but like Southend if the terminal and apron were moved to the station and the train service improved would it make a difference to the airport?

[N707ZS]

There was a plan to move the station near to the entry road so that the bus can pass the station. At one point the local bus used to go down to the station as part of its route.

There is room near the station to build a big terminal and apron.

[oldart]

I seem to remember there was a plan to construct a tram type rail system to link Darlington/Middlesbrough/Ingleby Barwick with a spur to the airport. I presume that is a no starter now.

[SWBKCB]

isn't the train line only a local one, so probably wouldn't be of that much use anyway?

I think moving the station nearer to the approach road was more about getting the station nearer to Middleton St George and the housing developments there.

[highwideandugly]

Any news on the GIB services yet..looked on web site..but a little vague!

Any reason known for the Amsterdam cancellation s this week?

One more.. are the Guernsey flights being sold direct or through a travel company..like Short Breaks?

[Robert-Ryan]

Guernsey was the second internal rumour of three after the original Loganair announcement, although Flybe was quoted not Loganair and I thought it would be more substantial than four weeks of flights. It's the third rumour we really need to be true, but two out of three is good going for now!

[highwideandugly]

Pax figures through for October..massive improvement plus 10 %. .
Get back when disseminated..big word..stats.

Is this the turning point?

[EK77WNCL]

Come on then Robert-Ryan, you've teased me... What was rumour no. 3?

[Robert-Ryan]

You'll find out either when it's announced or when I'm 200% sure it's died a death, I don't fancy being the subject of a witch hunt otherwise

[N707ZS]

Looks like the new snow kit has done its job.

[01475]

From December the train station will only have one train a week; towards Darlington.

[SWBKCB]

From December the train station will only have one train a week; towards Darlington.

I know nowt about trains, but it's usually reported that there has to be two services a week by law - anybody know more?

Also, for anybody who hasn't seen it, link below to DTVM's review of the year - comments?

DTVMovements (http://www.dtvmovements.co.uk/Info/2017.htm)

[NorthSouth]

Hmmm, quite right to highlight the positive points but the pax figures for 2017 are set to be the 11th in a row of progressive decline, and at an almost 50-year low. There's a very very long way to go, especially if commercial passenger air transport is regarded as the be-all-and-end-all, as it increasingly is.
NS

[01475]

I know nowt about trains, but it's usually reported that there has to be two services a week by law - anybody know more?


Quite a lot are one a week, one direction only (particularly where footbridges to a platform have been removed / haven't been maintained).

I'm not sure there's a specific rule; just what they think a judge would accept. In England I wonder if they could run a service on the 5th Sunday of each month!

In Scotland they tried the ghost train trick with two short stretches of track left unserved when they tried to withdraw the West Highland Sleeper, but the courts there ruled that what they were doing didn't count as a service as they clearly didn't intend that anyone would use it.

I wonder if this station should perhaps be allowed a dignified death. The airport, regrettably, doesn't need it.

[N707ZS]

Probably cost money to close it and remove it.

[highwideandugly]

Finally got round to chomping the October figures.
This Compared to the excellent update on DTVM page.

Couple of annomolies....
ATM. Movements are up 32% according to the CAA..not minus 16%(DTVM). I suppose that would figure with extra Loganair....so very good

Total passengers up 10%. Not the 16% quoted...so good but not as good...11518 compared to 10476 last year.

Domestic. Plus 60%. Seems a lot(CAA) not the 38%(DTVM) so better than quoted.
Amsterdam as shown(DTVM). An increase but only 0f 4 outward passengers per flight..so not fantastic..new larger aircraft etc.

Aberdeen appears to have attracted approx. an extra 375 total extra passengers outward with the addition of Loganair..I know not a full month but interesting to see November’s totals.
On the whole..not bad but definitely room for improvement?

[highwideandugly]

Believe it when I see it..but Carlisle flights semi announced to 3 destinations not served from here!

[N707ZS]

Answered your own question there, the air ambulance should take up one of the plots at the airport. The planned hangar at Urlay Nook looks as if its big enough for more than one helicopter.

[SWBKCB]

Although the heading on the webpage says" land for sale", can't actually see any mention of land being for sale in the brochure.

The objection to the helicopter base looks perfectly reasonable (and not something you'd bother with if flying was expected to stop! that's what the planning process is for :)

[Robert-Ryan]

Yes the new air ambulance location should definitely be opposed by Peel, you don't really want helicopter activity that close to final approach unless they are required to call tower for takeoff clearance despite not being on the airport site.

[SWBKCB]

One off holidays to Malta (25/05/18) and Madeira (16/11/18) available on the Super Breaks website (in addition to Seville - no sign of GIB yet)

[No-More-Bullschit]

Movements website reporting a Verona as well

[SWBKCB]

Ah, that one's from Durham Airport - the other two are from Durham Tees Valley! :ok:

[01475]

Excellent news! If a few one-off holiday charters works well for them and could be a sign of good things to come in the future, maybe they could see if they can attract something a bit more regular? Maybe Thomson or someone like that?

[N707ZS]

a few one-off holiday charters + £

Maybe Thomson or someone like that -£
[/simple]

[tigertanaka]

Yes, excluding the commercial terms between the airline and the airport (although I guess we can assume that TUI & Thomas Cook will be able to get better deals than most other tour operators/airlines), I thought the issue was the volume of passengers on each flight.

The airport is currently geared around flights of typically 60 people a time flying to Amsterdam (and less to Aberdeen). The passenger traffic is also spread out throughout the day focused on business people who dont bring huge amounts of luggage and are not so price sensitive.

A TUI 738 takes 189 pax and is a far bigger larger logistical challenge as it causes a one time spike in demand for the airport's services (check in, security, baggage handling, catering etc). A couple of flights a week from an airline paying little-or-nothing in landing fees probably causes more trouble than it is worth.

Unfortunately, unless MME can get an airline to commit to a decent schedule or a based aircraft, small scale charters and business routes are probably the only route to go down.

[N707ZS]

They did two 738s full in one go on Saturday. Presume no hold luggage as they were day trips to see father Christmas, possibly kids prams at the most in the hold.

[NorthSouth]

Yes the new air ambulance location should definitely be opposed by Peel, you don't really want helicopter activity that close to final approach unless they are required to call tower for takeoff clearance despite not being on the airport site.It's controlled airspace! Of course they'd need DTVA ATC clearance for any movement in and out of there. So if something was on final approach the ambulance patient would just have to wait.
I suspect the Peel objection is just an attempt to scupper the proposed new base so they have to move back on to Peel-owned land.

[SWBKCB]

a few one-off holiday charters + £

Maybe Thomson or someone like that -£
[/simple]


assuming they've got somebody who can do hard sums to sign off the contract this time! :ok:

A TUI 738 takes 189 pax and is a far bigger larger logistical challenge as it causes a one time spike in demand for the airport's services (check in, security, baggage handling, catering etc). A couple of flights a week from an airline paying little-or-nothing in landing fees probably causes more trouble than it is worth.

Unfortunately, unless MME can get an airline to commit to a decent schedule or a based aircraft, small scale charters and business routes are probably the only route to go down.

The recent Santa flights and the announced Super Breaks flights uses EnterAir 738s', so the logistical challenges are the same (and to be honest, not that much greater than the EMB). I'd have thought regular weekly flights would be less of a resource challenge than one off charters scattered though out the year.

[P330]

According to the Gazette, there will be 7 superbreak destinations:

Florence
Gibraltar
Iceland
Seville
Malta
Madeira
Verona

Sounds good!

[highwideandugly]

If they all operate!! Web site is awful to book on!!

It’s a good swop though for Newmarket and Omega Holiday flights over the last couple of years ,,even though probably evens passenger wise?

Worried about Eastern..other links are pretty ominous... again though..devils advocate..Loganair good swop??

[N707ZS]

Newmarket and Omega Holiday, think at least one of these is operating through KLM.

[SWBKCB]

If they all operate!! Web site is awful to book on!!



and looking at the news story on the airports website, you get:

Error

The page you requested was not found.

[AirportPlanner1]

Speaking of costs, CAA stats show an average of 5 pax per flight using the Norwich route.

I know it's a tag-on to the ABZ flight, but how is it economical to have (I assume) full security and handling in place for so few people? It's not even as though there are other flights anywhere near the same time to spread the cost.

[EGPO]

According to the Gazette, there will be 7 superbreak destinations:

Florence
Gibraltar
Iceland
Seville
Malta
Madeira
Verona

Sounds good!

Sudden upturn in the Airports fortunes even if it is on a very limited basis .
I'm a slight bit jealous- I would love to fly to and visit Iceland .
But it means either 6 hours to Belfast once on the mainland or approx 3 to Dublin ..

[EGPO]

It's controlled airspace! Of course they'd need DTVA ATC clearance for any movement in and out of there. So if something was on final approach the ambulance patient would just have to wait.
I suspect the Peel objection is just an attempt to scupper the proposed new base so they have to move back on to Peel-owned land.
Sorry to post twice in succession but say for example a very serious incident - well most helicopter call puts are.
If imagine an order to turn away and go around , E.g. KLM1499 ( Whatever) turn right 130 climb 3000 etc ..
Emergency priority?
Police chopper may have to wait but for life and limb.
Besides I thought they had bases at other Airports? Leeds? Or is it now the former Sheffield airport?.

[Mike Flynn]

The same charter operator is offering these at Norwich.

[N707ZS]

EGPO full air ambulance reasons for moving can be found in the media. They supposedly have offices and training facilities at different bases and want them all in the same place. At DTVA they have part of an old hangar and a large portacabin, we know there is room to build all they want but perhaps there is a cheaper option. Urlay Nook is the remains of a chrome works which is mainly concrete pads where the plant and warehouses were and an office block of futuristic design. The ground is probably seriously contaminated with nasty chemicals, so I wonder if they have considered that. Obviously no good for housing.

[No-More-Bullschit]

From an Ultralight operator up the roads Facebook page:

For those affected by the closure of Durham Aerosports, we'd like to offer you 10% off your training here at Eshott.

Other than this I can't find any sign of them having shut down.

[NorthSouth]

EGPO: there would have to be a Letter of Agreement between the air amb and DTVA ATC that specifies what prior communication has to be made before a helicopter can take off. I imagine the air amb ops staff would have a direct line to ATC and as soon as they get a call-out they would hit that button at the same time as the helicopter crew were being given the incident details.
There might be scope - if the helipad location, orientation and surrounding obstacles allow - for some sort of emergency provision that, in the event of inability to contact ATC in time, permits the heli to get airborne on a specified south-easterly heading, perhaps with a height restriction, without clearance. But there won't be any arrangement that contains the remotest possibility that a heli might appear right next to the final approach in front of traffic on a c.1.5nm final (descending through about 500ft).

[inglebyboro]

If they all operate!! Web site is awful to book on!!

Or you could always book with a independant travel agents & support a local business. Our local agency are giving a discount to match the Airport Developement Fee

[Robert-Ryan]

I'm willing to bet the caravan site is no less secure than any other, it's just typical of DTVAs luck that it should happen here

[P330]

Caravan security is rated by the insurance professionals and the more secure the location, the lower your premium. There are a number of gold rated sites around that are manned, have security gates, check in/out procedures, lighting and cameras and as a result have had zero incidents.

I don't know what DTVAs security rating is. On the face of it, it should be excellent given it's an airport however on inspection, you can see that a number of the measures mentioned above aren't overtly there (I stand to be corrected).

I would never store my unit there.

[No-More-Bullschit]

Wake me up when someone sets a plane on fire...

[SWBKCB]

I don't know what DTVAs security rating is.

CASSOA GOLD rated storage facility

Caravan & Motorhome Storage (http://www.durhamteesvalleyairport.com/storage/)

[P330]

Suspect it may not be gold much longer!

Anyway, back to aviation.....