Southampton-2

[rog747]

Whilst we hope that Flybe can restructure and/or find a buyer, KPMG have just been brought in and they may not be BE's ''white knight''

If the worst does happen, I do have a small feeling that Easy Jet, having successfully opened up SEN may well have a good look at SOU to open a base there - my only reservations is the type and size of their aircraft.
The A319 has around 150/156 seats and I gather flights out of SOU will see payload restrictions due to the derated engines the a/c have (even to shorter destinations)
The A320 has 180/186 seats but is less affected by payload problems BUT is a massive jump in size for routes out of SOU (even the high season sun routes or peak time GLA EDI DUB MAN or CDG for instance)

But the train link to the SOU station is worth its weight in gold and correct and clever marketing could well get the traffic increasing - seen as a attractive southern and west alternative to the London or even Bristol airport(s)

It's not going to be without a bumpy path ahead

[shamrock7seal]

Loganair have just announced Bournemouth to Channel Islands from next April

[rog747]

Loganair have just announced Bournemouth to Channel Islands from next April

yes good news, summer only and JER x 3 (MON FRI SAT) and GCI x 1 (SAT) using EMB 135 jets - seem to be on a W pattern operation

[Sharklet_321]

It won't have any impact on SOU at all given the frequency and seasonality of the route so SOU can rest easy.

[Planespeaking]

It won't have any impact on SOU at all given the frequency and seasonality of the route so SOU can rest easy.

I don't think any small regional airport can ' rest easy ' at the moment, there is too much economic uncertainty,and many 2nd and 3rd tier airlines are working on very thin finances. But onwards and upwards!!

[Sharklet_321]

Perhaps if Flybe get closer to collapse the government will remove APD for aircraft operating under 80 seats? It would appear that those are mostly operated by independent carriers who are the ones that need the most help. Not to mention it would assist the domestic UK regional economy also. A much needed boost.

[rog747]

Quote from above,
''' so SOU can rest easy...'''

LOL, er no,
I should imagine with the rather unsettling news of Flybe's state the MD of SOU is hardly 'resting easy' as you say...
Along with news of BOH on a tide of more flights and new operators there he/she will be rather unsettled.

If Flybe go (and Flylolo do not hang around) then SOU will have a lot of empty parking places next year if the airport management do not start to woo new carriers -
I noted from their lukewarm roadshow twitter response I feel they (SOU) really expect airlines to come along to them...Not gonna happen - SOU needs to start to woo airlines not sit back and wait...

I agree about the APD but the chances of this or any HM Govt removing or lowering the APD on short or domestic flights is remote - despite lobbying by regional airports since 2017
The government has said it will not be making any changes to Air Passenger Duty (APD) in the last budget and the tax brings in over £3bn annually

[RW20]

rog747
I thinks it's fast approaching make or break for SOU!,with FLybe about to implode, Southampton simply must have the runway extension, and the management attract alternative airlines. Both these questions are however not straight forward and not certain. Critical times for SOU,and exciting times for BOU!

[Dropoffcharge]

It won't have any impact on SOU at all given the frequency and seasonality of the route so SOU can rest easy.

Hilarious!!!......so with people's faith in Flybe dropping like a stone as each day passes, the uncertainty that any flights might actually leave the ground in S19 from SOU......these two routes copied by a new operator at a local competitor airport aren't gonna have an impact???......Really, get real!!!!

[The Nutts Mutts]

A little bit hysterical, don't you think? Flybe/Blue Islands have multiple daily frequencies to both islands from SOU.
Loganair are offering seasonal flights to the islands for S19, and have found a quick and easy way to utilise the aircraft during the day by popping over to BOH and back between other U.K. flights. BOH currently lacks any CI services so there's no direct competition, and this route will be marketed to tourists rather than business travellers. For example, one BOH-GCI flight on an E135 per week probably won't be making much of a dent in the SOU-GCI market.
Good news for BOH though, an impressive portfolio of new routes for 2019.

[Wycombe]

with people's faith in Flybe dropping like a stone as each day passes

....which will only be exacerbated by people stirring the pot of uncertainty. If you think that's a good thing, then crack on.

The new Logan operation at BOH (whilst welcome for them) is tiny. Jet vs. TP makes no real difference on a sector this short.

[stewyb]

....which will only be exacerbated by people stirring the pot of uncertainty. If you think that's a good thing, then crack on.

The new Logan operation at BOH (whilst welcome for them) is tiny. Jet vs. TP makes no real difference on a sector this short.

Agreed, putting BE aside for the moment, an extra 148 outbound seats per week is not going to hurt SOU especially!

[paulc]

SOU over many years has often been heavily reliant on 1 airline as its main user with a couple of others to make up the numbers.

[Planespeaking]

SOU over many years has often been heavily reliant on 1 airline as its main user with a couple of others to make up the numbers.

Exactly right and that is because of the lack of infrastructure investment. ie. runway restrictions. The airlines that can operate without payload penalties from SOU are growing all the time,so SOU it's down to FlyBe, a company that is holding on by it's fingernails. Very sad and very short sighted.

[rog747]

Apart from a master plan to extend the runway by only a small marginal amount (which is still going to be some years away) SOU will always be restricted with its operations and operators - the other issue is current lack of stands for bigger a/c.

The runway will never be extended in our lifetime to offer performance for larger and heavier aircraft to fly further - the location of it means it is simply impossible due to obstructions at both ends - Future money will be never available to move the M27 or the railway!

[shamrock7seal]

A little strong there rog747. They have already secured easyJet to Geneva. No reason why they couldn’t entice them to do more like Belfast etc etc. Space for parking I think is more pressing.

[RW20]

Unless I've read it wrongly,isn't planning permission for the starter strip to be asked for in the beginning of 2019?
If so can anyone anticipate when this project ( given permission that is) would be complete?

[stewyb]

Unless I've read it wrongly,isn't planning permission for the starter strip to be asked for in the beginning of 2019?
If so can anyone anticipate when this project ( given permission that is) would be complete?

Planning going in early next year and get the impression from info coming out of the airport on social media/MD etc that they want this underway soonish ie once planning permission is agreed and satisfaction of environmental concerns. The one saving grace is that they are not treading on other land owners property and is all being constructed from within. I therefore would expect this to be approved much quicker and believe the finances are in place from owners to commence asap!

[rog747]

A little strong there rog747. They have already secured easyJet to Geneva. No reason why they couldn’t entice them to do more like Belfast etc etc. Space for parking I think is more pressing.
Shamrock - Not really old chap - the EZY GVA ski flights have been around I think a few seasons now and are well established but of course winter only
To what lengths SOU 'chased' EZY to operate these I'm sorry I do not know, but upmarket ski demand is always there

[FFHKG]

Thought last season was the first EZ GVA flights from Southampton, although Bournemouth has had them for "several" seasons

[canberra97]

Thought last season was the first EZ GVA flights from Southampton, although Bournemouth has had them for "several" seasons

Exactly

Easyjet commenced GVA-SOU on 16 December 2017 and the final inbound flight of the season was on the 16 April 2018.

[Sharklet_321]

SOU's issue is not the runway length (assuming they build larger apron stands)....

It's the curfew.

No LCC can be based there unless they change the time that last flights can come back to base. Current curfew would mean very low utilisation or constant disruption and flights being diverted to BOH.

Any easyJet style operation could only be supported by W-flying.

[rog747]

SOU's issue is not the runway length (assuming they build larger apron stands)....

It's the curfew.

No LCC can be based there unless they change the time that last flights can come back to base. Current curfew would mean very low utilisation or constant disruption and flights being diverted to BOH.

Indeed, which we saw this summer with the Skiathos charter going into BOH due late inbound and ATC - not much fun for pax who have had a long day having checked out of their Greece accommodation by noon (10 am UK time) and they then find themselves waiting for coaches back to SOU at midnight in BOH but had booked the convenience of flying from their local SOU airport!

[Flitefone]

Thought last season was the first EZ GVA flights from Southampton, although Bournemouth has had them for "several" seasons

EZY at BOH is about to enter its 14th season. Started in 2005 I believe.

FF

[shamrock7seal]

Rumour is that BA Cityflyer & Flybe are close to announcing a full merger. I really hope not as it would damage BA Cityflyers stability in my opinion.

[PDXCWL45]

Rumour is that BA Cityflyer & Flybe are close to announcing a full merger. I really hope not as it would damage BA Cityflyers stability in my opinion.
That would be a turn up for the books!

[rog747]

Puzzling to hear this rumour - BACF has just trimmed its out stations and ditched most or many of its newish summer sun flights out of BRS STN and BHX

[Wycombe]

BACF has just trimmed its out stations and ditched most or many of its newish summer sun flights out of BRS STN and BHX

They have ditched BRS and BHX, but I think this was more to do with ensuring the operational resilience of the core LCY ops, and reducing operational complexity and resultant costs.

I think a BA-branded op would go down very well at SOU, provided prices keep the user-base on-side. Doubtless it would be a much trimmed-down/core routes only offer, but the ability to sell flights through BA.com could lead to an upside in terms of viable ops to more European capitals/centres of commerce? And provide a shot-in-the-arm to the sun routes also?

[rog747]

'' ensuring the operational resilience of the core LCY ops, and reducing operational complexity and resultant costs.''

Umm isn't that good and prudent business practice?

So why would now BA CF suddenly want to buy the messy picture that is Flybe> ?

[SotonFlightpath]

The idea of BA Cityflyer taking over the complete Flybe network, even with some trimming, is I think a non-starter. However, if they were to just concentrate on the very core routes from just two or three existing Flybe bases, it could just about make commercial sense, and would integrate with the existing Cityflyer network. For example, from SOU the profitable and frequent routes to Manchester, Edinburgh, Glasgow, with perhaps Belfast and Amsterdam could easily be served by a mixture of two or three SOU based aircraft, with additional out and back sectors being undertaken by aircraft and crews from the existing Edinburgh and Manchester bases. The two or three SOU based aircraft could also operate a few 'sun route' or ski-route rotations in the appropriate seasons, and the BA brand would certainly strike the right chord with the relatively affluent catchment area. But I guess they could do that anyway, without buying Flybe!

[Reversethrustset]

Without being a pedant surely it's IAG that will be buying Flybe and incorporating it into BACF rather than BACF acquiring Flybe?

[Wycombe]

'' ensuring the operational resilience of the core LCY ops, and reducing operational complexity and resultant costs.''

Umm isn't that good and prudent business practice?

Yes, it is, and that was my point. Think you've misunderstood me. Complexity = cost in most businesses.

[rog747]

Yes, it is, and that was my point. Think you've misunderstood me. Complexity = cost in most businesses.

Ok fine, soooo why would BA CF then be remotely interested in buying all or bits of BE as you scribe in your post? I'm bit puzzled or I am being bit thick old chap lol

[Wycombe]

I didn't say anything about who buys who - others have suggested a merger may be on the cards.

I merely picked-up on that to suggest, as others now have, that he BA brand could go down well with the wealthy catchment of SOU, and some of BEE's other larger bases.

[MARKEYD]

Noticed that Murcia has appeared in the destination section on Wikipedia from the new international airport for next year , operated from 19 th June by Flybe on behalf of Lolo flights

[FrequentlyFlying]

Murcia International - so much unknown as to be expected but huge catchment and will be popular if they happen from SOU - just back from Spain where they reporting Ryanair will switch from MJV here but until it’s opening date is 110% confirmed they won’t be advertising anything more than ‘Murcia’ as a destination - so that will potentially give the option of FR BOH flight and SOU LOLO BE to the airport - Murcia and more impressive Cartagena are waiting to open up more tourism - odd in only that it seems far too much of certain PAX plane filler for LoLo LOL!

[FrequentlyFlying]

And there we go out of date already - FR BOH x 4 weekly from April and imagine Murcia flights from Jan will also end up here as MJV sadly closes.

[canberra97]

Ironically Murcia was one of Flybe's original sun routes from Southampton but if I remember correctly it only lasted one maybe or two seasons in 2003/2004.

I too had noticed that Murcia had been added on the SOU Wikipedia page this morning and I was hoping that someone would comment on it.

[MARKEYD]

Latest news regarding Fly lolo and the flights they are operating next year is that it is all still going ahead

The company hope to finalise a new deal before christmas with an Austrian company / airline and they are now using an EMB 190 aircraft from Southampton operating a full schedule in the peak summer months

[The Nutts Mutts]

Here's hoping it all comes together for them. Does that mean the Austrian E190 will be operating all of their routes apart from Murcia, which Flybe will be doing?

[Sharklet_321]

October Southampton performance was a little less disappointing than August and September with some strong domestic numbers. Overall passengers were down 3.1% to 171,000. 2m still holding for the 12 month rolling period. Load factors must be much improved because Oct'18 saw almost 9% less flights than Oct'17.

[Ejet1993]

As of march 26th KLM have discontinued their Southampton - amsterdam route.

[rog747]

Yikes - do you have a source ? - no announcements officially on the www as yet

[SWBKCB]

As of march 26th KLM have discontinued their Southampton - amsterdam route.

Bookable on the KLM website up to 30 March - nothing after that (other UK destinations are bookable).

[PDXCWL45]

Yikes - do you have a source ? - no announcements officially on the www as yet
They wouldn't make an announcement.
I wonder if we'll see a codeshare with Flybe?

[shamrock7seal]

There is already a codeshare as far as I’m aware. Both KL and BE flight numbers are available on connections.

What strikes me as odd is how SOU can’t sustain this route given that one would have thought the majority of customers would be connecting. It always annoyed me how high the fares were for connecting flights. If they don’t compete more effectively with LHR and LGW on connecting air fares then it doesn’t stand a chance.

[PDXCWL45]

There is already a codeshare as far as I’m aware. Both KL and BE flight numbers are available on connections.

What strikes me as odd is how SOU can’t sustain this route given that one would have thought the majority of customers would be connecting. It always annoyed me how high the fares were for connecting flights. If they don’t compete more effectively with LHR and LGW on connecting air fares then it doesn’t stand a chance.


Lack of an overnight aircraft will hamstring it as it misses many of the US flights and morning European connections.

[SWBKCB]

The one way fares to AMS in March are dirt cheap - if confirmed, certainly challenges the perception that SOU is a goldmine waiting to be exploited. They make MME, HUY, NWI work. Runway length, parking stands, backtracking etc can't be having that much of an impact on KLM?

[PDXCWL45]

The one way fares to AMS in March are dirt cheap - if confirmed, certainly challenges the perception that SOU is a goldmine waiting to be exploited. They make MME, HUY, NWI work. Runway length, parking stands, backtracking etc can't be having that much of an impact on KLM?
All 3 of them have an overnighting aircraft. Even without one you'd have thought SOU would be sustainable.

[RW20]

It's not looking good for SOU,how many airlines over the last few years have come and gone?,if FLybe remain they will surely cut some services.
The lack of airside investment has finally hit hard,with BOU on the up with what seems a progressive management attracting routes,perhaps AMS is next on there list?
Can SOU survive long-term? ,It's got to be a question on many lips.

[Ejet1993]

Yikes - do you have a source ? - no announcements officially on the www as yet

I work at SOU and we all got a email regarding it

[SWBKCB]

The lack of airside investment has finally hit hard

This is the normal reason that gets trotted out, but how would this impact on KL's operation and any decision that they have taken?

or the other airlines which have come and gone? Maybe it is what it is and BE are serving the market that is there?

[adfly]

Airside investment wouldn't make any difference to KLM. The runway and stands can easily cope with E175/190 flying a very short route and there is enough for one to overnight as well if they wanted to. It must be quite concerning for the airport having just released an ambitious expansion plan to potentially not even be able to sustain KLM's hub link. I also would presume they are currently the second largest carrier passenger wise, meaning if these rumours are true the dependence on Flybe will have increased even further...

[shamrock7seal]

Very interesting times indeed.

I do think it’s odd for KLM to onky do a double daily service with no overnight aircraft when they can sustain 4 times daily at Bristol while also comoeting with easyJet. Perhaps it’s a lack of aircraft availability? Has KLM been doing much advertising in the region? I noticed a couple of TV ads...

[MARKEYD]

Disappointing and surprised for Southampton to loose KLM after 2 years on the route

Prehaps the market just isn’t there, that they think there is , and only room for Flybe

Could be a whole host of things we are not privy to for them to pull out , but it certainly doesn’t help the image of the airport if they can’t attract the likes of Air France and KLM to the airport

[EI-BUD]

While I'm not privy to the details, it may be a case of leaving this to Flybe/codeshare in favour of starting something else with those slots...

..still its not to late to load flights!

[The Nutts Mutts]

The puzzling thing about this is that on the face of it, the flights appeared to be doing well. There were sometimes light loads on the midweek morning flights, but most rotations appeared to be at least 90% LF, often full. So you'd assume the business class seats were selling as well as economy, which would have helped yield.
Of course the only people who'll know are KLM.
The route will continue with Flybe and I guess we could see a return to the old days of a KLM codeshare.
It's a kick in the stones for the airport though, losing a world-renowned carrier and skyteam alliance connection. 2mppa might be harder to maintain next year as a result. By my maths that'll be approximately 100,000 less seats per year without KLM.
I really thought that KLM were one of those airlines who, once they started serving somewhere, stuck with it. What was the last airport that they dropped in the UK, was it Liverpool?

[shamrock7seal]

I really hope this is not actually happening and just a
rumour. I take this flight a lot and much prefer the jet over Flymaybes Q400

[stewyb]

Seems strange timing when BE's situation is unresolved and KLM could have potentially capitalised on any AMS route reduction as part of a BE/new owner network cull!

[The Nutts Mutts]

I really hope this is not actually happening and just a
rumour. I take this flight a lot and much prefer the jet over Flymaybes Q400

Looks like it's true, flights for next summer were on sale a few weeks ago but I've just looked again and there's nothing on sale from the 26th March onwards. That's a real shame. Back to the Q400 for all of us then!

[Ejet1993]

I work at sou and we all got told two days ago. It's because of low transfer passengers going onwards through amsterdam.

[Planespeaking]

Looks like it's true, flights for next summer were on sale a few weeks ago but I've just looked again and there's nothing on sale from the 26th March onwards. That's a real shame. Back to the Q400 for all of us then!

There seems to be a negative theme about SOU which is most unfortunate. Perhaps operators and prospective carriers are realising that it's ability to increase it's runway length is very limited and therefore the chance for route development is minimal. It's a great shame if the airport can only attract niche carriers. In aviation it's either grow or die. I hope I am wrong.

[rog747]

I work at SOU and we all got a email regarding it


Thanks - you are such a mole LOL

[Sharklet_321]

KLM exiting SOU shows that the problem is not necessarily runway length at all but (arguably) its proximity to LHR

[RW20]

Sharklet 321
Sou has a vast catchment area, excellent transport links,the real problem is that that the likes of Easy,RYR, etc simply can't operate from the airfield profitably with the present airside restrictions.
Simply SOU is in a no win situation,even with the proposed runway extension I believe it will struggle to attract any meaningful airlines.
Time will take,but I think SOU has had its best years.

[SWBKCB]

Sharklet 321
Sou has a vast catchment area, excellent transport links,the real problem is that that the likes of Easy,RYR, etc simply can't operate from the airfield profitably with the present airside restrictions.


Airside restrictions trotted out again - the 'real problem' is why can't airlines like KLM make destinations like AMS work? As has been pointed out, they won't have been affected by airside restrictions.

[Sharklet_321]

I understand what you’re saying RW20 but what does this have to do with KLM?

[RW20]

As I said SOU has a vast catchment area,people would love to fly locally,but prices determine PAX numbers,larger capacity plane: lower fares,SOU could have done this,but simply can't ( contrary to other subcribers to this post) it's all about fares and good management!

[Nakata77]

Are we sure these flights are not just switching to BOH ? Rigby said they wanted AMS and were talking to KLM

[The Nutts Mutts]

I work at sou and we all got told two days ago. It's because of low transfer passengers going onwards through amsterdam.

With circa 20k pax per month it's a well used route. KLM were filling most of their flights but the above would seem to indicate that there wasn't enough long-haul feed for them, possibly due to LHR's proximity as Sharklet 321 says.
The underlying point-to-point demand still seems strong though, given the number of pax flown by both KLM and Flybe from SOU.
Flybe's loads held up well after KLM's arrival, so no doubt this route will go back to being a money-spinner for them once the competition disappears.

[Ejet1993]

With circa 20k pax per month it's a well used route. KLM were filling most of their flights but the above would seem to indicate that there wasn't enough long-haul feed for them, possibly due to LHR's proximity as Sharklet 321 says.
The underlying point-to-point demand still seems strong though, given the number of pax flown by both KLM and Flybe from SOU.
Flybe's loads held up well after KLM's arrival, so no doubt this route will go back to being a money-spinner for them once the competition disappears.
The flight is regularly overbooked but most just flying to Amsterdam. Not enough people going onwards. Everyone at the airport is gutted.

[RW20]

The nutts mutts
This might be so,but another airline goes from SOU!,if FLybe goes what then?
It's a strictly FLybe or bust for the airport,simply that!

[The Nutts Mutts]

The flight is regularly overbooked but most just flying to Amsterdam. Not enough people going onwards. Everyone at the airport is gutted.

That's really sad to hear. I guess KLM aren't interested in the point to point leisure market and just want longhaul feed.
I wonder if LHR's dominance in longhaul over the years has led to a lot of business travellers in the south building up FF miles/points on BA and other LHR carriers which won't be easily ditched in favour of a shorter drive to SOU. Plus also just the general ingrained habit of looking at flight options from London given the historical lack of local options.

[rog747]

As I said SOU has a vast catchment area,people would love to fly locally,but prices determine PAX numbers,larger capacity plane: lower fares,SOU could have done this,but simply can't ( contrary to other subscribers to this post) it's all about fares and good management!

Exactly - KLM from SOU and the immense AMS onward transfer possibility has to be driven in to the mindset of locals, local businesses and local travel agents alike to THINK to book via AMS iso of the drag up to the LON airports....

KLM only started the SOU route a couple of years ago so it needed to be more developed - seems that did not happen to get the SOU locals on board unlike the folk at MAN LBA NCL NWI BRS CWL etc etc whereby they use the AMS connections fully to their advantage.

I for one was looking to book flights to ATH IST NBO and CPT from/to SOU in the past year and looked at the KLM connections but it simply didn't work due to poor timings or got too expensive - although the IST return at £253 was competitive with LHR except for a 6 hour wait at AMS on the way back so I didn't do it.

[FrequentlyFlying]

I’d agree 100% it’s about mindset, timing and TOTAL cost vs convenience. Marketing is the only antidote to mindset and well outside of ‘enthusiast’ and industry forums let’s be honest ‘who knew?’

Explaining an international ‘Hub’ to the general public isn’t easy - they don’t perceive for example Dubai or Singapore as a Hub - they see it as a ‘stop off’ -tradition says long haul Heathrow or maybe Gatwick - especially in the South.

Its not all doom at SOU let’s remeber it’s communications - rail especially - is second to none - it probably either has to accept its a regional small airport and rely on FlyBe or whoever takes over viable routes or it works on its grand plan and actually delivers a runway extension and stand alterations and tap into the EU City market with EZ and put all endeavours into courting them. As a city break or EU business hub it could work as a viable alternative BUT only if a a320 can land and take off unrestricted. But they know that, let’s hope they stop saying and get on to more doing.

lets keep positive the plus points of the airport are huge. As I have said before leave the buckets and spades to the airport better equipped with FR on board at BOH.

Lets think positive!

[B170ppl]

I had flights booked to/from China using KLM's SOU-AMS connection in April and have utilised the same onward transfer previously. The reason I used it was because it was both cheaper and far more convenient than travelling via Heathrow. However, as alluded to in FrequentFlyers #1075 post, most of my friends/colleagues are simply not aware of the onward transfer feasibility so do not consider it.....and the reason they are not aware of the feasibility is because the best flight deals often only came up if booked direct on the KLM.COM website. Using the popular aggregate flight search websites, which I expect most people do, rarely gave as good offers as going direct to KLM so it is hardly surprising they took their business elsewhere.
So. with better marketing, I'm sure the route could prosper with onward transfers.
I should end with crediting KLM already re-booking (same day/EGHI) using FlyBe.....just pray I don't end top rebookng them too.

[stewyb]

If point to point leisure traffic is so strong and load/yield good, would the likes of EZY not be interested at a time when there is uncertainty with BE? Wouldn't be much of a load restriction using a 319 on a hop across the channel of under 300 miles surely, just a thought!

[SWBKCB]

Who said yeild was good? Have you looked at KLM's prices? What about slots?

[stewyb]

Who said yeild was good? Have you looked at KLM's prices? What about slots?

Demand is obviously there and its always been said on this thread that EZY would fit the high density routes that support the regions business/leisure market, after all this is what the airport are supposedly going after with their expansion plans. In any case you would hope that some discussions have/are to take place with carriers now this situation has arisen although I won't bet on it!

[The Nutts Mutts]

Who said yeild was good? Have you looked at KLM's prices? What about slots?

I don't think anyone has said so specifically, the only people who'll know anything about the yield of the route will be KLM's accounting division.

What I did say was the fact that the flights were regularly full (therefore including the more expensive business class seats) might indicate that at least some money was being made. But again that's just my opinion, I've got no facts to back that up. It didn't look like a little-used route whose days were numbered, that's for sure.

I agree with StewyB though, two airlines flying mostly full aircraft several times a day would indicate (to me at least) that there's a strong demand for this route, even if only point to point, based on KLM's experience.

[Nakata77]

Seems strange to me that a company such as KLM would only give the route two years at poor timings and not attempt to improve timings before quitting completely. They seem to make Inverness work at single daily. How long did they give Liverpool?

[Flightrider]

It may be worthwhile considering that KLM are likely to have been less than impressed with Flybe's launch and expansion on BHX-AMS and MAN-AMS, so SOU-AMS could conceivably have had other motives. It will be interesting to see whether there is now any further rationalisation of UK-Amsterdam capacity, or indeed whether Flybe will up SOU-AMS again given it is now to carry any KLM traffic.

But from KLM's point of view, it's pretty difficult. There was no point in them putting a nightstop in SOU - virtually all nightstops leave the UK airports at 06:00 to meet the early morning wave at AMS. You can't do that from Southampton because of the airfield opening hours.

[Jaymac2061]

Just had a May reward flight SOU-AMS rebooked onto Flybe this morning. Have tried in past to travel via AMS but timings never worked out.

[RW20]

FLybe are tottering on the abyss,SOU have vastly underperformed,KLM gone what's left?
If FLybe contract or even go what's left?
It's a poor situation that could have been resolved long ago with progressive management and airside development,but will this ever happen?
Like Brexit all could change!

[Planespeaking]

FLybe are tottering on the abyss,SOU have vastly underperformed,KLM gone what's left?
If FLybe contract or even go what's left?
It's a poor situation that could have been resolved long ago with progressive management and airside development,but will this ever happen?
Like Brexit all could change!

It almost seems like willful neglect!

[Dropoffcharge]

But from KLM's point of view, it's pretty difficult. There was no point in them putting a nightstop in SOU - virtually all nightstops leave the UK airports at 06:00 to meet the early morning wave at AMS. You can't do that from Southampton because of the airfield opening hours.

So maybe not such a silly idea for them to contemplate a move to BOH, is no such time restrictions there. Anyone know what the average arrival time back into SOU in the evening is? As again SOU has a fairly early curfew at night as well.

[shamrock7seal]

If they were switching then pax wouldn’t have been rebooked on to Flybe services as has been confirmed by B170ppl

[Ejet1993]

So maybe not such a silly idea for them to contemplate a move to BOH, is no such time restrictions there. Anyone know what the average arrival time back into SOU in the evening is? As again SOU has a fairly early curfew at night as well.

2230 monday - Friday. Saturday 2130, Sunday 2230, PPR till 2300.

[Dropoffcharge]

2230 monday - Friday. Saturday 2130, Sunday 2230, PPR till 2300.

Thanks for the info Ejet, so the next question is how many of those arrivals end up having to divert if they cannot make SOU before the curfew?

[SotonFlightpath]

Exceptions are sometimes made, I flew in on the Flylolo/Flybe flight from Skiathos on October 2, and after being told shortly after a very late departure from Skiathos that we would be diverted to Exeter - towards the end of the flight we received the good news that SOU would remain open for our arrival, and touched down eventually around 23.40. But I think generally the restrictions are enforced fairly strictly as it is all part of the planning consent for airfield operations.

[Ejet1993]

Exceptions are sometimes made, I flew in on the Flybe flight from Skiathos on October 2, and after being told shortly after a very late departure from Skiathos that we would be diverted to Exeter - towards the end of the flight we received the good news that SOU would remain open for our arrival, and touched down eventually around 23.40. But I think generally the restrictions are enforced fairly strictly as it is all part of the planning consent for airfield operations.
The airline would call swissport and ask for a extension request, then goes to airport and all departments get asked and normally agreed.
​​​​​​ the latest I've seen is 2345.

[stewyb]

Having viewed the airport's promo video for S19 just released, it seems Flylolo are now down to 8 routes being sold from the original 14 (although their website still shows 12 selling). God knows whats going on or if they have now secured an aircraft. SOU need some new airlines/destinations pronto as their Wikipedia page on routes is now looking very thin!

[RW20]

Surely there's going to be some good news for SOU soon!
How can management turn around? With airlines leaving, uncertainty with its main and now virtually only carrier,its time to pull out some good news!

[fjencl]

I had heard that flylolo was going to announce who they will use in 2019 as a carrier and on what aircraft type, so still awaiting the news, unless anybody else knows

[stewyb]

Surely there's going to be some good news for SOU soon!
How can management turn around? With airlines leaving, uncertainty with its main and now virtually only carrier,its time to pull out some good news!

Maybe EZY will announce AMS & PMI later this month as part of their S19 new routes schedule, was that a pig I just saw take off!!

[MARKEYD]

I had heard that flylolo was going to announce who they will use in 2019 as a carrier and on what aircraft type, so still awaiting the news, unless anybody else knows

see post 1039

[Ejet1993]

It was rumered a sukhoi superjet was doing it. But I doubt it will even go. The e195 was capped at 97 pax. One time they put too much fuel and it leaked a tonne on the stand. Their prices are ludacris. £495 for Murcia in august.

[shamrock7seal]

Admittedly the airport needs some good news but I would be very worried about putting too much excitement into Flylolo.

[stewyb]

According to their MD, SOU want the runway extension ready for S20. If you class the start of summer season for airlines as April, work could be commencing in the Autumn of 2019 (6/7 month timescale?)

[RW20]

What's the chance of this runway extension getting approval?
If so can anybody actually give the TODA for 20 and the 02 LODA,are these distances sufficient for 320 neo operation?

[shamrock7seal]

Runway 02*:

TORA 1,893 (versus BOH 2,271)
TODA 1,831 (versus BOH 2,576) this doesn't change due to obstacles at runway end (train sheds, road, lighting, buildings)
ASDA 1,893 (versus BOH 2,271)
LDA 1,775 (versus BOH 1,838)

Runway 20*:

TORA 1,820 (versus BOH 2,026)
TODA 1,975 (versus BOH 2,086)
ASDA 1,820 (versus BOH 2,086)
LDA 1,605 (versus BOH 1,970)

*This is a personal estimate only and not yet published or confirmed. BOH comparisons for 02 use 08 and for 20 use 26.
TORA is defined as length of runway suitable for normal operations. It need not always equal to LDA (landing distance available). TORA doesn't include Stopway or Clearway. TODA (Take off Distance Available) TODA is the length of runway plus any clearway if available ASDA (Accelerate Stop Distance Available)​​​​​​

[Sharklet_321]

Look at that landing field length on runway 20!!! It's like London City! Given landing on runway 20 is most common due to prevailing winds it hardly seems worth the bother to extend it.

[Nakata77]

But the TODA from runway 20 at 1,975m sounds like it might be very good for a 737-800 (Ryanair? Jet2?)

Southends TODA is just 1,799 and both Ryanair (737-800) and easyJet (A320) operate from there all over the place.

[stewyb]

What's the chance of this runway extension getting approval?
If so can anybody actually give the TODA for 20 and the 02 LODA,are these distances sufficient for 320 neo operation?

Personally don't think there will be any problems getting this passed, primarily because all works are confined to within existing airport boundary and no issues with ceo or neo operations!

[SWBKCB]

Personally don't think there will be any problems getting this passed, primarily because all works are confined to within existing airport boundary and no issues with ceo or neo operations!

So no objections from local residents expected?!

[stewyb]

So no objections from local residents expected?!

Yes but don't think this will have an overriding impact on approval being given, just that noise and environmental measures will need to be upheld and monitored stringently!

[RW20]

Looking at the LDA at London city at 1319m declared and Southend 1609m declared,surely SOU figures estimated in these posts are far greater,and given that Planning permission is given,SOU future looks bright.

[SWBKCB]

I admire your optimism - longer runways means more, bigger, noisier planes to the local residents.

What's the strength of local opposition - there are already quite stringent controls around opening hours (which will have an impact on any LCC base operation)

[FFHKG]

Southampton's future is solely dependent on attracting airlines, the right routes, and providing them with incentives to operate from there. An extended runway does not guarantee that this will be the case.

The routes need to be ones that passengers want in sufficient number to make the operation economic, and the airport needs to both promote itself to the passengers and ensure that they have a great experience passing through the airport.

As has already been pointed out, LCC's will not base aircraft at an airport that restricts their ability to utilise each aircraft for three rotations each day. Southampton seems unlikely to get more than an away based aircraft operating on a W basis, unless the operational hours can be extended. Will the local residents accept this? Seems highly unlikely I suspect.

[stewyb]

But surely operating hours are very similar to SEN?

[The Nutts Mutts]

I think SEN is open 24 hours, given there was lots of discussion around night bizjet movements on that thread over the summer.

[FFHKG]

Google shows operating hours as 06.30 to 10.15. Previous discussion on this thread shows similar hours. Insufficient for a LLC based aircraft to able to get back in after third rotation without risk of diversion. Apparently, not unusual for late returns to divert to Bournemouth and coach back..... not something a LCC would want as they would need to relocate the aircraft back to SOU the following morning or coach the passenger to BOH for the first rotation.

[TCAS FAN]

Runway 02*:

TORA 1,893 (versus BOH 2,271)
TODA 1,831 (versus BOH 2,576) this doesn't change due to obstacles at runway end (train sheds, road, lighting, buildings)
ASDA 1,893 (versus BOH 2,271)
LDA 1,775 (versus BOH 1,838)

Runway 20*:

TORA 1,820 (versus BOH 2,026)
TODA 1,975 (versus BOH 2,086)
ASDA 1,820 (versus BOH 2,086)
LDA 1,605 (versus BOH 1,970)
​​​​​​

It appears that one issue has been overlooked, namely the runway width. To attain a TORA/ASDA/TODA 1800M or more the runway width needs to be a minimum of 45 M. I suspect that the current 20 TODA is there due to grandfather rights, When the runway dimensions change it is probable that the 20 TODA will drop to 1799.

Even with the TORA/ASDA/TODA limited to 1799, the 02 LDA increased and the current 20 LDA, most of the distances are better than SEN.

While a 20 TORA/TODA will only increase to 1799 the obstacle environment (trees + hill) in the TOCS (take-off/climb surface) will be slightly improved due to the take-off being started further north than that currently available.

[TCAS FAN]

Personally don't think there will be any problems getting this passed, primarily because all works are confined to within existing airport boundary and no issues with ceo or neo operations!

May not be so straightforward. From memory there are provisions made in the airport's planning consent (possibly in the Section 106 Agreement) which requires (for noise abatement) that aircraft are not permitted to be closer to houses (I believe at least those in Southampton Road) than they would be on the current runway. This is one of the reasons why a parallel taxiway on the west side will never happen.

[stewyb]

May not be so straightforward. From memory there are provisions made in the airport's planning consent (possibly in the Section 106 Agreement) which requires (for noise abatement) that aircraft are not permitted to be closer to houses (I believe at least those in Southampton Road) than they would be on the current runway. This is one of the reasons why a parallel taxiway on the west side will never happen.

the planes won’t be any closer to Soton rd from where they are now according to the plans!

[KelvinD]

SWBKCB: What's the strength of local opposition
Apparently, following a public consultation, they are happy:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-46465109

[SWBKCB]

Hundreds of people took part in a consultation with over 60% backing the proposals, the airport said.

Interesting - so potentially the other 30% could oppose. At least there is rent-a-quote spokesman from any organised opposition or residents groups threatening to campaign against :ok:

[Expressflight]

It appears that one issue has been overlooked, namely the runway width. To attain a TORA/ASDA/TODA 1800M or more the runway width needs to be a minimum of 45 M. I suspect that the current 20 TODA is there due to grandfather rights, When the runway dimensions change it is probable that the 20 TODA will drop to 1799.

That would seem correct as SEN's paved runway is much longer than the 1,799m than it can declare for TORA, ASDA or TODA due to its runway width being similar to that at SOU. Talk of 1,975m at SOU would appear to be pie in the sky unfortunately.

[RW20]

TCAS FAN
With what you have quoted on the possible TODA and LDA with the extension,are they sustainable distances for 320 neo etc,for med operations.
If they are then I see the opening hours to be the major obstacle for LLC operations.

[easyflyer83]

Google shows operating hours as 06.30 to 10.15. Previous discussion on this thread shows similar hours. Insufficient for a LLC based aircraft to able to get back in after third rotation without risk of diversion. Apparently, not unusual for late returns to divert to Bournemouth and coach back..... not something a LCC would want as they would need to relocate the aircraft back to SOU the following morning or coach the passenger to BOH for the first rotation.

Whilst what you say is true and whilst there are few (if any) examples in the U.K, many continental LCC bases are subject to curfews and restrictions. So it’s not that it is inherently prohibitive to the LCC model. The thing is, why SOU when many other U.K. airports offer greater flexibility?

[MerchantVenturer]

Bristol has night restrictions based on both numbers of flights and a points system regarding types of aircraft. It also has a short runway, is over 600 feet AMSL and suffers from hill fog and mist. This hasn't stopped it becoming easyJet's largest UK base outside London although it might be about to be eclipsed by Manchester next year.

[RW20]

What are the earliest take offs that SOU can undertake? and what is the latest time for arrivals?
Am I right in saying that they are allowed a certain number of out of normal times arrivals per month?

[Sharklet_321]

Wonder if they are getting the runway ready in time for the rumoured Jet2 base expansion in 2020. There are rumours that BRS/CWL/SOU or even BOH could be used by Jet2 in 2020.

Could envisage a pretty good base for Jet2 at SOU given they don't serve LGW or LTN and have no intention to fly from LHR when the 3rd runway is open (unlike easyJet mentioned publicly).

If SEN can support Ryanair 737-800 operations to Corfu and Malaga then you can be sure that SOU will be on their radar also. I could imagine Ryanair wanting to serve Dublin & Belfast for a start at much higher frequencies than would be possible from BOH.

[TCAS FAN]

TCAS FAN
With what you have quoted on the possible TODA and LDA with the extension,are they sustainable distances for 320 neo etc,for med operations.

Unfortunately I do not have 320neo take-off performance data but would suggest you look at what is happening at SEN to get a flavour of what could be acheivable from SOU. Similar to SOU they have a restrictive LDA, which during times when the runway state is "wet" could be problematical, as was the case with past Air Europa 738 ops at SOU, with some diverting because of it.

It would appear that SEN recognise the LDA problem, resulting in grooving their runway to assist with drainage. Many rants ago I mentioned the situation at SOU, grooved runway but the grooving isn't doing what it is meant to do due to not having a cambered runway and water collecting in a drainage channel on the east side of the runway. This results in water not fully draining from the grooves and the runway state continuing to be reported "wet/wet/wet" well after the time it should become dry, almost totally negating the whole reason for the grooves.

Consequently the restrictive LDA on 20 (which will not change with the extension) could be a constraint, unless the drainage problem is resolved.

[Sharklet_321]

Becoming clearer to me now - based on other rumours - that Jet2 is most likely pitching BOH & SOU against each other to see who can do the best deal and likewise with CWL & BRS for their next phase of expansion from 2020 onwards. Good business sense I suppose.

[TCAS FAN]

What are the earliest take offs that SOU can undertake? and what is the latest time for arrivals?
Am I right in saying that they are allowed a certain number of out of normal times arrivals per month?

From memory I believe movements (ie take-off or landing) Mon-Sat 0630-2300 & Sun 0730-2300 with 10 per month out of hours movements. I'm in Eastleigh next week so will pop in to the EBC Planning Department to have a look at the Section 106 Agreement.

[shamrock7seal]

TCAS FAN, the published operational hours are advertised as 06:30 to 22:00. But given Flybe schedule most of their return to base arrivals at between 21:30 and 22:30 there must be some flexibility? It would be great to get confirmation once you have a look at Section 106.

[The Nutts Mutts]

The current published closing time is 2230. PPR is available until 2300 if requested by operators. Airfield extensions until 2330 can be requested but are voluntary for the fire service, ATC etc. From what I've seen extensions tend to be granted.

[shamrock7seal]

Thanks The Nutts Mutts.

Those extensions are are not free, costs between £470 & £560 depending on early or late notice.

[RW20]

Many thanks to TCAS FAN, Shamrock7Seal,The Nutts Mutts for your informative posts,I guess it's wait and see with planning permission to be given,before we speculate
on any airline developments for SOU.It seems that if it is given then there are improvements to be made on the runway even with an extension.If SOU is to continue and develop then there is only one course of action and that is significant airside investment. We wait and see!

[SWBKCB]

If SOU is to continue and develop then there is only one course of action and that is significant airside investment.
An oft repeated mantra on this thread - maybe have a look at MerchantVenturers post. If the markets there, airlines tend to find a way.

[RW20]

Sort out airside: Runway length, stands , operational hours and given the transport links airlines will commit!
It's down to owners and management
We wait and see!

[Planespeaking]

Sort out airside: Runway length, stands , operational hours and given the transport links airlines will commit!
It's down to owners and management
We wait and see!

Direct, accurate and obvious.

SOU has done nothing for years to improve it's product...hence it's recent heavy reliance one operator. An operator that is struggling in today's financial environment.

An airport is like any other business, offer pax and airlines something attractive and they will come. If the airport management fails to provide that infrastructure then why should anybody knock on it's door?

[SWBKCB]

Airports like BRS, LTN and LBA have their physical challenges but their development has been driven by demand from airlines (and at times it hasn't been pretty). There doesn't seem to be the evidence of this sort of demand at SOU but previous posters think that the airlines will flood in once the infrastructure is in place. That looks like hope over experience.

A runway extension and extended opening hours - that seems to be a stretch.

[TCAS FAN]

TCAS FAN, the published operational hours are advertised as 06:30 to 22:00. But given Flybe schedule most of their return to base arrivals at between 21:30 and 22:30 there must be some flexibility? It would be great to get confirmation once you have a look at Section 106.

We are talking about different things. I am talking about the legally binding Section 106 Agreement that the airport has with Local Planning Authorities. Within this is the earliest/latest times that the airport may operate, and a provision for flights outside these times.
​​​​​​

[MARKEYD]

Does anyone know if the Transun Santa charter went ahead today to Enontekio ?
Cant see anything on the flight departure boards or anything else for that matter

Its the usual one a year departure that often sees a different type / airline in at the airport

[Ejet1993]

No Lapland's this year!

[billygoatgruff]

Expect growth to be unleashed at SOU once the runway take-off length is addressed by Summer 2020. Ryanair services to Dublin and Europe, easyJet (domestics), Jet2 (holidays), Wizz air (Romania, Bulgaria, Poland), Wow (Iceland) & Norwegian (to Scandinavia) are all contenders for new services and based aircraft and believe me from what i've heard the airport is doing all it can to secure them. The days of kowtowing to Flybe are well and truly over.

BOH will most likely lose most if not all of its LCC 'status' after this but to be honest it is important for the region to have at least one airport that excels. We don't need two that are not going anywhere.

[stewyb]

Expect growth to be unleashed at SOU once the runway take-off length is addressed by Summer 2020. Ryanair services to Dublin and Europe, easyJet (domestics), Jet2 (holidays), Wizz air (Romania, Bulgaria, Poland), Wow (Iceland) & Norwegian (to Scandinavia) are all contenders for new services and based aircraft and believe me from what i've heard the airport is doing all it can to secure them. The days of kowtowing to Flybe are well and truly over.

BOH will most likely lose most if not all of its LCC 'status' after this but to be honest it is important for the region to have at

Can’t wait for responses on this one!

[SWBKCB]

Well, take out the hyperbole and you'd be amazed if the airport isn't talking to all of the airlines listed - not much point in spending the money otherwise.

Couple of points, though - the runway needs to be approved and built first, and what rate of return will these airlines give you?

[Pringle_]

Expect growth to be unleashed at SOU once the runway take-off length is addressed by Summer 2020. Ryanair services to Dublin and Europe, easyJet (domestics), Jet2 (holidays), Wizz air (Romania, Bulgaria, Poland), Wow (Iceland) & Norwegian (to Scandinavia) are all contenders for new services and based aircraft and believe me from what i've heard the airport is doing all it can to secure them. The days of kowtowing to Flybe are well and truly over.

BOH will most likely lose most if not all of its LCC 'status' after this but to be honest it is important for the region to have at least one airport that excels. We don't need two that are not going anywhere.

Nice dream, why stop there though? Surely after the extension they could entice BA away from Heathrow?

[Reversethrustset]

Cloud cuckoo springs to mind.

It doesn't matter who the airport is talking to, what matters is whether they're talking back. The airport can approach emirates if it so wishes, it doesn't mean there'll be a new emirates A380 service pending just because they've been approached. This whole notion of extending the runway and they'll come is pure conjecture and not based on any substance or fact. The fact is airlines might come, but the fact also is they might not.

[Planespeaking]

Expect growth to be unleashed at SOU once the runway take-off length is addressed by Summer 2020. Ryanair services to Dublin and Europe, easyJet (domestics), Jet2 (holidays), Wizz air (Romania, Bulgaria, Poland), Wow (Iceland) & Norwegian (to Scandinavia) are all contenders for new services and based aircraft and believe me from what i've heard the airport is doing all it can to secure them. The days of kowtowing to Flybe are well and truly over.

BOH will most likely lose most if not all of its LCC 'status' after this but to be honest it is important for the region to have at least one airport that excels. We don't need two that are not going anywhere.
Well we are all entitled to send wishlist letters up the chimney to Father Christmas. "Please can I have a few extra yards on the runway, then Wizz, Jet 2, Norwegian, and your sleigh will all be paying landing fees! all gift wrapped of course But just a minute where are all these based737.800s going to park? Please Father Christmas can I have loads more acres under concrete too! "

[pabely]

Remember a few airports almost pay airlines to start services, another cost with no return on investment unless the airline approached first!

[stewyb]

Realistically, all the airport can hope for in the short term is maybe EZY offering a few sun/city/domestic destinations and someone like Wizz starting a couple of Polish/Eastern European routes. The airport simply doesn’t have the space for your wish list above and will just as likely end up with a single LCC that operates or worse case none at all.

As for taking over from BOU, that’s just ridiculous!

[Planespeaking]

Remember a few airports almost pay airlines to start services, another cost with no return on investment unless the airline approached first!
It was always thus. An airport offers prospective operators a sweetener to lure them in. No change there.

[RW20]

In the proposed revamp of stands 1-5 (as per masterplan) there are 4 -738/A320 stands available,all other stands are usable only by smaller props /jets.
This alone is a major restriction for any LCC operations,however let's get the extension and taxiway approved and completed before fantasizing on possible
airlines! coming to SOU.

[TCAS FAN]

From memory I believe movements (ie take-off or landing) Mon-Sat 0630-2300 & Sun 0730-2300 with 10 per month out of hours movements. I'm in Eastleigh next week so will pop in to the EBC Planning Department to have a look at the Section 106 Agreement.

Just spoke to EBC, no walk in service, apply on line and wait up to three weeks to get a response! So if I don't get back to you all before, Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to all thread followers, as Arnie said "I'll be back!"

[Flitefone]

For Airport hours see the CAA Publication:

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-7597EA0F561576083152C4C2CB74EC82/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGHI_en_2018-12-06.pdf

Night time closure - details are contained in the Airport’s noise action plan:
There are very strict limits on the number of scheduled night flights that Southampton Airport may operate during the night period. The night period is defined from 23:00 to 06:00, or to 07:30 on Sunday mornings. The airport is permitted to operate 10 scheduled night flights per month, but not more than 100 in any 12 month period. However, occasionally flights operate during these times for unexpected reasons such as poor weather or as a result of en-route air traffic control delays. Additionally some ambulance flights carrying patients or transporting donor organs are accepted during night hours, for emergency medical reasons.

FF

[RW20]

TCAS FAN &Flitefone
Interpreting the listed permitted operational hours as you have both quoted would mean an Easy Jet 320 e.g. could take off by 06-01 and land by 23-00 without infringement?
If so and with the additional safeguard of 10 flights per week over 23-00 allowance,surely that does not impede basing a 4x 320/738 operation at SOU?
Given that the airport provides and can adjust to the times!.

[SWBKCB]

The airport is permitted to operate 10 scheduled night flights per month, but not more than 100 in any 12 month period

Less than 2 per week, not 10

[RW20]

Ok ,
My mistake, still sustainable for any prospective airline?

[Knife-Edge]

I think you will find the night operation provision is there to cover ‘exceptions’ such as delayas and one of flights such as air ambulance etc rather than a ‘scheduled’ use.

[Flitefone]

I think you will find the night operation provision is there to cover ‘exceptions’ such as delayas and one of flights such as air ambulance etc rather than a ‘scheduled’ use.

absolutely - the numbers of delayed SOU scheduled flights that divert to BOH after 23:00 each year - 20 or so I believe - evidences the restriction to exceptional circumstances, permission is sometimes not granted.

[TCAS FAN]

the numbers of delayed SOU scheduled flights that divert to BOH after 23:00 each year - 20 or so I believe - evidences the restriction to exceptional circumstances, permission is sometimes not granted.


Having had first hand experience of this scenario, on the contrary the normal reason for diversions has been that staff (often NATS) are not willing/able to stay on duty after their normal end of shift time.

[MARKEYD]

Should know this week if Easy jet are operating any new flights next summer as there new summer release went on sale today with LGW , MAN , STN and BRS seeing some new destinations

[The Nutts Mutts]

Ahead of the first Geneva ski flights this weekend, I thought I'd post some analysis I did of last years SOU and BOH GVA passenger figures just for interest really and because I love statistics! Data from the CAA website and other airport sources. I posted this on the Bournemouth thread at the end of the last winter season but didn't get any responses, maybe people here will find it more interesting.

Winter 16/17
SOU 5858 pax on Flybe (15% market share)
BOH 33273 pax on easy (85% market share)
Total pax 39131

Winter 17/18
SOU Flybe 7083 (21% increase on 16/17, 35% of SOU-GVA pax)
SOU easy 13314 (65% of SOU-GVA pax)

SOU overall 20397 (348% increase on 17/18, 40% market share)

BOH 28986 (13% decrease on 16/17, 60% market share)

Total pax 49383 (26% increase on 16/17)

Looking at the numbers, the impression I get is that easyJet have expanded the overall south coast to Geneva market by opening up a route from SOU, and increased demand without cannibalising their Bournemouth route. Flybe also saw healthy growth in their pax numbers from one year to the next. BOH saw a decrease in passengers and market share, but not really a huge one.
It will be interesting to see how the figures look at the end of this winter season.

[rog747]

Forget any use of the 737-800NG or Max at SOU on a regular basis even with the tiny runway extension...
The a/c is s slippery beast, with much higher landing speeds, the brakes are not so fancy, plus other performance related issues for take offs that will not see this a/c be used at SOU for any high density loadings - If you then restrict payload the £££'s lost matter, which no airline will seriously consider.
If you think otherwise then why do you think that none have ever operated out of SOU as yet - and stayed...

The A320 is a different animal - still economical to operate out of SEN even with a slightly restricted payload of between 5-15 seats less (out of 186) to the Canary islands.
If anyone new is going to come to SOU to have a go then it will be EZY imho.
(I suspect they are watching closely as to what happens,,,)

[stewyb]

Forget any use of the 737-800NG or Max at SOU on a regular basis even with the tiny runway extension...
The a/c is s slippery beast, with much higher landing speeds, the brakes are not so fancy, plus other performance related issues for take offs that will not see this a/c be used at SOU for any high density loadings - If you then restrict payload the £££'s lost matter, which no airline will seriously consider.
If you think otherwise then why do you think that none have ever operated out of SOU as yet - and stayed...

The A320 is a different animal - still economical to operate out of SEN even with a slightly restricted payload of between 5-15 seats less (out of 186) to the Canary islands.
If anyone new is going to come to SOU to have a go then it will be EZY imho.
(I suspect they are watching closely as to what happens,,,)

Wizz also maybe!

[Planespeaking]

Forget any use of the 737-800NG or Max at SOU on a regular basis even with the tiny runway extension...
The a/c is s slippery beast, with much higher landing speeds, the brakes are not so fancy, plus other performance related issues for take offs that will not see this a/c be used at SOU for any high density loadings - If you then restrict payload the £££'s lost matter, which no airline will seriously consider.
If you think otherwise then why do you think that none have ever operated out of SOU as yet - and stayed...

The A320 is a different animal - still economical to operate out of SEN even with a slightly restricted payload of between 5-15 seats less (out of 186) to the Canary islands.
If anyone new is going to come to SOU to have a go then it will be EZY imho.
(I suspect they are watching closely as to what happens,,,)

Interesting then that RYR are still planning to use the 737-800 out of SEN. I understand any concerns are not take off but landing restrictions, hence the grooving of SEN's runway.

Time will tell, but I'm not sure how the 737-800 SFP would work out of SOU.

[RW20]

Surely Southampton runway extension given its runway is groved is at least equal or superior toSouthend,given this why won't we see Esy very soon?

Regards
Fdere

[TartinTon]

Surely Southampton runway extension given its runway is groved is at least equal or superior toSouthend,given this why won't we see Esy very soon?



For landing maybe but not for departures. Plus SEN has an additional 100+m and not the obstacles that SOU has.

[RW20]

So the SOU story is rather like Brexit,that is we do not know all the facts to after the deal is done,in other words who will be able to operate with what?when the runway extension is complete! Why go ahead with this plan if the runway data is less then SEN which seems to be on the limits for 737-800 operations anyway!

[stewyb]

New SOU operations will always suit Airbus over Boeing due to those set out above by Rog747. EZY/Wizz will surely benefit from the changes and with both also adding the A321neo to their fleet, this type could also be used to supplement 319/320 and has impressive field performance. Drainage and camber of the runway has been a problem for landing aircraft and this you would hope will be resolved during extension and resurfacing of entire runway that is overdue. Concern must be not the runway length after extension as this will be operationally sufficient but more apron space. Only 4 stands available and so any expansion will still be limited to a based aircraft or 2 max, although this will ease somewhat once BE relinquish their E95 and KLM the E75. Bottom line is that if the airport can get commitment and embed a LCC to commence a handful of routes from S20, the headache of stand space etc will be an ongoing discussion as part of the airports overall master plan

[TCAS FAN]

Surely Southampton runway extension given its runway is groved is at least equal or superior toSouthend,given this why won't we see Esy very soon?

Its grooved but the grooving doesn't work as it is supposed to. See my post 1124.

[TCAS FAN]

For landing maybe but not for departures. Plus SEN has an additional 100+m and not the obstacles that SOU has.

While the SEN runway has a greater physical length than SOU, its academic as only the declared distances can be used for landing and take-off weight calculations. In some respects SOU declared distances will be better than SEN, albeit the obstacle environment in the TOCS may impact of permitted take-off weights.

[SWBKCB]

Has the consultation process on the Masterplan even been completed yet?

[The Nutts Mutts]

Yes, the public consultation on the draft masterplan closed a few weeks ago and the final version is due out before Christmas. Planning application for the runway extension will be submitted early next year according to the airport MD.

[SWBKCB]

So a fair way to go before a spade is put in the ground - far too early for any public airline commitments.

[stewyb]

So a fair way to go before a spade is put in the ground - far too early for any public airline commitments.

Maybe but if they want to start operations in S20, works will need to commence during 2019!

[RW20]

It will be interesting to see if the runway extension (given that planning permission is granted ) occurs with resurfacing and groving .On the subject of stands,I remember a A321 parked up on 13/14,facing out due to ILS infringement ,given this fact surely this 13/14 combination could be used as an additional stand for 320/738 operations.
If so that would give 5 stands as opposed to 4 for operation of a small LCC commitment.

[Expressflight]

While the SEN runway has a greater physical length than SOU, its academic as only the declared distances can be used for landing and take-off weight calculations. In some respects SOU declared distances will be better than SEN, albeit the obstacle environment in the TOCS may impact of permitted take-off weights.
I notice that the RESAs (Runway End Safety Areas) on both runways at SOU are only 90m in length. That was the case at SEN prior to the runway extension but these had to be substantially increased to meet CAA approval, now being 227m on 23 and 138m on 05. Can greater RESA lengths be accommodated at SOU should they be stipulated?

[TCAS FAN]

I notice that the RESAs (Runway End Safety Areas) on both runways at SOU are only 90m in length. That was the case at SEN prior to the runway extension but these had to be substantially increased to meet CAA approval, now being 227m on 23 and 138m on 05. Can greater RESA lengths be accommodated at SOU should they be stipulated?

If CAA require any thing more than a 21 metre extension to the 20 RESA, it will impact on the 20 TORA/ASDA. The 02 RESA could be extended by 94 metres without impacting on the maximum possible TORA/ASDA (1799M).

If maximum TORA/ASDA are to be achieved SOU will have to put up a safety case to justify their RESAs. IMHO the resolution of the current runway drainage problems (ie sort out the problems with the current grooving) will need to be a high priority- possibly improving the drains located on the east side of the runway, which possibly haven't been touched since the runway went down in the mid-1960s?

[RW20]

TCAS FAN
Given the masterplan,surely advice has been received reference RESA on the proposed extension.With the airport management advertising that the extension will give the ability of 320 type aircraft to take heavier loads to Mediterranean destinations,there's a lot of egg on faces if they have got wrong!

[autoland12feet]

Have been reading posts on SOU for many months and at last have overcome the challenges of becoming a poster. I was an aircraft spotter at Sou back in the 1960s and subsequently became a commercially qualified flyer and spent nearly 40 years flying big jets and a few smaller turboprop s with a well known outfit.

Always an advocate of development at SOU , I have witnessed growth from 10 departures per day to over 50. As a professional pilot who has also been involved in flight operations in a management role I have to say that there has been a lot of absolute nonsense posted about our airport both with regard to the way the airport is run and the way in which aircraft are operated.

As an example, I flew to Skiathos and back in October. The payload limitations imposed are not just SOU runway limitations but Skiathos. The runway there is shorter than SOU!

I witnessed Thomas Cook Airbus 321s departing Skiathos to fly to the Greek mainland to refuel! These companies take these restrictions into account when pricing their products! When it comes to operating hours, our biggest international airport LHR, also has similar restrictions regarding night curfews. It has not stunted growth there!

Run out of time just now. More comments to come.

[L1011effoh]

As an example, I flew to Skiathos and back in October. The payload limitations imposed are not just SOU runway limitations but Skiathos. The runway there is shorter than SOU!

I witnessed Thomas Cook Airbus 321s departing Skiathos to fly to the Greek mainland to refuel! These companies take these restrictions into account when pricing their products! When it comes to operating hours, our biggest international airport LHR, also has similar restrictions regarding night curfews. It has not stunted growth there!


The A321 has particularly poor take off performance, especially with obstacles. Departing JSI, if you are nearly full of passengers, you are unlikely to get back to the UK without a refuelling stop. However, going the other way from the UK to JSI, although there is normally a scheduled performance landing mass limit at JSI, you are normally able to get there from the UK. Although I haven't flown from SOU for nearly 30 years, I suspect that the outbound payload limitations ARE a function of SOU RTOM limits.

[rog747]

Aircraft arriving from the UK into JSI Skiathos (or mykonos for instance when their runway was still very short) will of course be much lighter due to the fuel burn and the LDA is fine for types including 757-200 and A320 and 321 except when there has been heavy rain and runway is wet wet wet and diversions are then necessary - as seen recently at the end of the season
The 757 has the best performance and brakes and will be sorely missed by operators and pax.

The SOU flight last summer to JSI was take off payload restricted out of SOU, or would face a stop at Brussels to take on fuel if fully loaded - that would then entail a 3 or 4 sector day for crewing and was likely unworkable even with a short delay...
The reason no stop was needed on the return out of JSI was the already booked restricted payload.
A full load could have been taken out of JSI but a stop on the way home would be likely as I have explained above and below.

Historically, departures from JSI (and JMK and JTR) back to the UK had always stopped at SKG or ATH (Volos or Kavala and CFU in recent years) to take on fuel with the exception of empty legs or very low pax on board where the a/c can make the UK with enough fuel.
At Monarch we flew the 737-200ADV to the islands.

SOU as we know is severely restricted for many take offs to a variety of destinations compounded by runway length, WAT limits, and type of a/c used...

Seems the A320 could be the best fit for airlines expanding at SOU as seen in SEN ops - although KM/air malta have to route their flights to MLA via sardinia or sicily to enable taking a full load out of SEN as MLA is too far to make it non-stop.
EZY do go to MLA and the Canaries but have a restricted payload by 5 to 16 seats on an A320. (180-186 seats)
This is still a BIG aeroplane to fill out of the area although again SEN has seen good growth using this a/c.

The 321 is likely way too big for SOU to fill up and the tail strike concerns would keep the CP very busy -
JSI and JMK can take 321's because they arrive with no fuel thus are light and have departed from airports in Europe with longer runways for a HGW take off.

738 and MAX for now does not have a future at SOU except maybe on short hops taking little fuel, although my pal who skippers both types at Norwegian crunched the numbers for some flights out of SOU and the loads available were completely uneconomical on most Med flights.
He also did it for GIB and again we saw why the 738 and the MAX will not go into Gibraltar.

[stewyb]

738 and MAX for now does not have a future at SOU except maybe on short hops taking little fuel, although my pal who skippers both types at Norwegian crunched the numbers for some flights out of SOU and the loads available were completely uneconomical on most Med flights.
He also did it for GIB and again we saw why the 738 and the MAX will not go into Gibraltar.

Just as well then that EZY & Wizz Air utilise the Airbus family as these airlines I would suggest are the likeliest to be courted by SOU!

[TCAS FAN]

Given the masterplan,surely advice has been received reference RESA on the proposed extension.With the airport management advertising that the extension will give the ability of 320 type aircraft to take heavier loads to Mediterranean destinations,there's a lot of egg on faces if they have got wrong!

One would hope that the airport owner has discussed in detail the RESA issue with CAA.

The minimum ICAO Annex 14 (which I am assuming is being used as SOU is an EASA Certified Aerodrome) length for a RESA for a Code 3 runway is 90 metres which is in addition to the required 60 metre strip end, ie 150 metres clear from the end of the TORA.

The Annex 14 Recommendation is a 240 metre RESA. If this cannot be obtained, which SOU cannot ever do due to the railyard and the M27, a safety case will be necessary to either show that there is reasonable chance that aircraft using the runway can be contained within something less, or the likelihood of an overrun is reduced due to other mitigation, often runway surface friction characteristics, which inevitably comes back to having excellent drainage to reduce the risk of a "wet" runway (or worse).

As mention in many posts, grooving is the way to provide for optimum drainage. Unfortunately while SOU's runway is grooved, as I have in the past pointed out, its not draining as it should. Hopefully this is now being considered and something will be done to improve the 1960s vintage drainage system, which was installed when the runway was originally constructed.

Hopefully the relatively new SOU owners have done their homework, otherwise we could possibly be back into the eggy face mode, which was unfortunately all too frequent an event in the days of Bl***y Awful Airports plc ownership.

[stewyb]

One would hope that the airport owner has discussed in detail the RESA issue with CAA.

The minimum ICAO Annex 14 (which I am assuming is being used as SOU is an EASA Certified Aerodrome) length for a RESA for a Code 3 runway is 90 metres which is in addition to the required 60 metre strip end, ie 150 metres clear from the end of the TORA.

The Annex 14 Recommendation is a 240 metre RESA. If this cannot be obtained, which SOU cannot ever do due to the railyard and the M27, a safety case will be necessary to either show that there is reasonable chance that aircraft using the runway can be contained within something less, or the likelihood of an overrun is reduced due to other mitigation, often runway surface friction characteristics, which inevitably comes back to having excellent drainage to reduce the risk of a "wet" runway (or worse).

As mention in many posts, grooving is the way to provide for optimum drainage. Unfortunately while SOU's runway is grooved, as I have in the past pointed out, its not draining as it should. Hopefully this is now being considered and something will be done to improve the 1960s vintage drainage system, which was installed when the runway was originally constructed.

Hopefully the relatively new SOU owners have done their homework, otherwise we could possibly be back into the eggy face mode, which was unfortunately all too frequent an event in the days of Bl***y Awful Airports plc ownership.

Drainage works happening on the far side of the airfield going by yesterday's You Tube clip of the returning EZY service, maybe linked?

[RW20]

What seems strange and limiting is the suggestion that operations by Boeing types like 738/Max will not be viable after the runway extension!.This surely severely limits who might operate and more to the point who would want to operate from SOU?

[rog747]

What seems strange and limiting is the suggestion that operations by Boeing types like 738/Max will not be viable after the runway extension!.This surely severely limits who might operate and more to the point who would want to operate from SOU?

Some could/will operate - but, the type is a slippery beast with high approach speeds and not the most chunky set of brakes - (not my words - but a pal who flies them both)

The routes to/from SOU therefore for the 738 & MAX will be limited - We have already seen Air Europa a while back flying for Thomson Hols with the 738 and the type did not last long.
I think that was only flights to PMI IBZ and MAH, someone here will know for sure and correct this - very short routes, but still faced tech stops and diversions on occasions. When (AE) they used the 734 all was pretty fine....

Correction to my post above but KM/air malta does now fly non-stop from SEN to MLA 3 days a week in S19 and other days via sicily and sardinia - not sure if this is due to the new 320Neo being used for those flights and/or any payload limits.
Loads must have been good for KM to try another year of ops from SEN...even with EZY also flying the MLA route.
But just announced WIZZ are also doing sicily next year from SEN so competition is STIFF...

[TCAS FAN]

Drainage works happening on the far side of the airfield going by yesterday's You Tube clip of the returning EZY service, maybe linked?

Wish it was, looks to me to be the snow clearing equipment which is stored on the east side.

[SWBKCB]

But just announced WIZZ are also doing sicily next year from SEN so competition is STIFF...

Think this is Luton not SEN?

[rog747]

Think this is Luton not SEN?

Yes indeed - my mistake apology - sleepy eyes lol

[stewyb]

Wish it was, looks to me to be the snow clearing equipment which is stored on the east side.

Understand it’s fibre optic cable being laid for new radar!

[Dropoffcharge]

What category ILS does SOU have? Is it only Cat 1, as I'm guessing any future LCC base operation would insist on Cat 3? What does SEN have there?

[TCAS FAN]

What category ILS does SOU have? Is it only Cat 1, as I'm guessing any future LCC base operation would insist on Cat 3? What does SEN have there?

Both SEN & SOU CAT 1 ILS, SOU has no chance of ever becoming CAT 3 due to obstacles. Best bet long term is IR HUD fit in aircraft.

[RW20]

Stewby and TCAS FAN
I would be very interested to know what radar is this fibre optic cable for?,there's been no info on any Watchman replacement!.
On the ILS point,there are many cat 1 airport's that operate with extensive operations i.e Cardiff,and with RNAV developing (02 on LPAV) Cat2/3 operations become less relevant ,so I would say that SOU could fulfill the requirements for LCC operations on the approach aids,but may be TCAS FAN can give his valid opinion on this.

[TCAS FAN]

Stewby and TCAS FAN
I would be very interested to know what radar is this fibre optic cable for?,there's been no info on any Watchman replacement!.
On the ILS point,there are many cat 1 airport's that operate with extensive operations i.e Cardiff,and with RNAV developing (02 on LPAV) Cat2/3 operations become less relevant ,so I would say that SOU could fulfill the requirements for LCC operations on the approach aids,but may be TCAS FAN can give his valid opinion on this.

RW20, I'm flattered by your invitation. At the end of the day LCC would like CAT 3, suspect that the only reason that BOH have it was that they were desperate to attract RYR, who made them an offer that they couldn't refuse? EZY are expanding at SEN and RYR about to move in with only CAT 1 (same as SOU, on only one runway), time will tell whether SEN will be able to offer them something better.

Is IR HUD the way forward for lower vis ops on CAT 1 runways? Note that AUR are getting it on their new ATR 72s.

[Dropoffcharge]

Are Cardiff and SEN more or less prone to Fog/LVP conditions than SOU is my next question??

[TCAS FAN]

Are Cardiff and SEN more or less prone to Fog/LVP conditions than SOU is my next question??

Sorry don't have the MET data to answer that one.

The advantage that Cardiff has is that they have ILS on both runways and while not having full CAT 1 approach lighting systems they are very close to it and therefore should have an approach minima at or close to the lowest possible 550 metres. SOU and SEN have considerably less approach lighting which I would speculate will give them a minima around 7-800 metres.

[Dropoffcharge]

Thanks TCAS FAN for the wealth of knowledge, I was simply wondering why there was no mention of Nav improvements in the draft master plan (or if it would actually be required to attract a LCC) I also haven't seen any indication of plans to carry out a full runway resurface like some have mentioned in previous posts.

thanks,
D.o.C

[RW20]

TCAS FAN
Forgive me if I'm wrong,but isn't the absolute cat 1 minima even with full approach lighting for any airport including Cardiff :650 RVR,with the 200 ft cloud base?. Southampton will be well above this as you say,but again ILS is old and RNAV approachs will surely be on 20 soon?

[Reversethrustset]

Nope, it's 550m. Cloud base is not a function of an ILS minima but rather the decision altitude (height) itself.
Both of Cardiff's ILS' have a minima of 550m.

[RW20]

Ok,but the decision height is still at 200feet in cat 1?so a100 ft cloud base could still present a problem if the RVR was greater then 550mtr ?

[Reversethrustset]

Correct, but it depends on whether the cloud is BKN, OVC, SCT etc as to whether it could cause a problem, I've approached many airports where the cloud base has been 100ft and still got visual at decision altitude. At night it's alot easier to "see the lights".
The forward visibility is irrelevant provided you have the requisite 550m, again I've had 10k visibility with the cloud base at 100ft and gone around and as above I've had 550m with a cloud base of 100ft and got in.

[Rivet Joint]

Ok,but the decision height is still at 200feet in cat 1?so a100 ft cloud base could still present a problem if the RVR was greater then 550mtr ?

Maybe it’s time to take a week off? Can’t fault your enthusiasm but this topic has been discussed to death now. Easy will open a base at SOU once they have created the 4 parking stands they need and extended the runway. The current 737 is essentially the same plane that Boeing introduced back in the 60s. It’s a pretty awful airplane by all accounts. SOU will really come into its own once the A220 is ordered in numbers by the low cost operators. This is the next frontier of aviation, watch this space.

[shamrock7seal]

Why does everyone think the Boeing 737-800 can't use SOU? Isn't Ryanair basing THREE of them at SEN???

When the A320 currently uses SOU it takes up TWO apron stands. This would be repeated for a 738.

[Flitefone]

Why does everyone think the Boeing 737-800 can't use SOU? Isn't Ryanair basing THREE of them at SEN???

When the A320 currently uses SOU it takes up TWO apron stands. This would be repeated for a 738.

Its been answered by several posters already, the (landing) field performance of the 737-800 is challenging - Google 'B737-800 runway excursion' for some of the incidents, then try for the A320 - a different story.

The SEN base has not opened yet, it remains to be seen whether it proves operationally viable through a winter. I doubt it will last . Ryanair have history with this. Several years ago they opened a base at Belfast City (which has a longer runway and better declared distances than SOU has now or plans in future). The base did not last because of payload restrictions related to the short runway, the airline moved to the larger Aldergrove.

Belfast City data here: http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-643A33EAD25E823DD232E7324813CF76/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/AIP/AD/EG_AD_2_EGAC_en_2018-12-06.pdf

FF

[shamrock7seal]

Perhaps Ryanair are doing this in order to pursue a better deal at STN then? The could in theory do the same at SOU (to get a better base offer at BOH)

[SWBKCB]

Perhaps Ryanair are doing this in order to pursue a better deal at STN then? They could in theory do the same at SOU (to get a better base offer at BOH)

Really? MAG will be quaking in their boots....

[rog747]

Rumour network has it that FR ops (737-800/MAX) out of SEN (Southend) will be on Lauda A320's.... watch this space lol

[RW20]

rog 747
​​​​​​The TODA for SOU extended RW 20 will be 1799 MTRS as quoted by TCAS FAN,as per SEN,this is a restricted distance for B738 operations,so I doubt Ryan air would entertain this , especially with operations down the road at BOU,however the runway would be more attractive to the Orange brigade!
Planning scoping for the extension, taxiway,and significantly a preparation for a tunnel under the runway have been presented to EBC.

[Ejet1993]

Still no carrier for the fly Lolo. Although apparently Flybe doing the skiathos again.

[JobsaGoodun]

Flybe have reinstated their Tuesday PMI flight so I don't think they'll be doing the Skiathos again.

[stewyb]

Flylolo's twitter page has a customer complaining that they received an email for their flight back from Tenerife being cancelled at short notice, blame being put on Brexit and a slowdown in sales since November, therefore they couldn't sell enough seats on Air Europa without financial loss. Now I don't know if this is entirely genuine but doesn't bode well for their 7 new destinations this summer from SOU if so!!

[rog747]

If Fly Lolo cannot sell high season Xmas GLA-TFS-GLA flights then something is truly wrong but blaming Brexit and politicians is a bit strong for a last minute cancelation

They are also poking fun that SOU is less stress and cheaper than LGW - but we won't ''drone'' on about it - Hmm bad taste imho as the poor family who was arrested wrongly have been hounded from their home

[toon22]

Is it me, or does Fly lolo’s offering from Southampton look like a fairy story?
Is Tivat (for example) really going to happen?
No airline confirmed and the pricing - £395 for Corfu in early July. Someone’s taking us for a ride...

[RW20]

toon 22
Realistically Flylolo are never going to make it at SOU!
SOU best bet for passenger growth is for the runway extension be agreed,and attracting Easy or Jet 2 ,but Brexit might have a say in this!

[davidjohnson6]

Assuming the Virgin takeover proceeds, what future for Southampton ? Lots of mention about Heathrow and Manchester getting more investment, but curiously silent about SOU

[stewyb]

Assuming the Virgin takeover proceeds, what future for Southampton ? Lots of mention about Heathrow and Manchester getting more investment, but curiously silent about SOU

business as usual would be my guess minus the odd unprofitable route!

[SWBKCB]

curiously silent about SOU

Why curious? No mention of Exeter, Birmingham, or any other BE locations other than those that Virgin and Stobart have interests in.

[22/04]

business as usual would be my guess minus the odd unprofitable route!

Yes - SOU routes make money don't they? They might not do the any of the sun stuff, if they still do,

[adfly]

I know what is happening to Southampton's biggest airline is hitting the headlines at the moment but I thought I'd take a look into the current schedule for Lolo flights, it is as below:

Mon - Kefalonia/Corfu then Kefalonia/Kalamata in Sept
Tues - Skiathos
Weds - No flights
Thurs - Tivat/PristinaFri - Skiathos
Sat - Murica/Dubrovnik/Kos (overnight)
Sun - Bourgas/Almeria

Overall, it is a lot more realistic schedule than previously but there are of course a number of concerns:

-Have they sourced an aircraft yet?
-Why is the SOU website only mentioning and selling 8 destinations (No Almeria, Kos or Pristina) through it's direct travel booking engine compared to the 11 that are bookable on the Lolo site?
-The generally very positive reviews from customers using the Skiathos flights last year have been knocked back a bit by some recent negative ones due to last minute cancelled flights, which will not help the company's reputation especially as a small operator. Their use of the generic 'because Brexit' for cancelling the Glasgow-Tenerife flight is also a very weak excuse, and I say this as someone who is very much a remainer!
-Their website really needs an update, there is lots of outdated information on there and flights to the old Murcia San Javier airport are still bookable, albeit with inflated prices to put people off trying to book (how hard can it be to simply remove it from the booking engine?)

It would be great to see this work, but I am becoming increasingly cynical that it won't of they don't source an aircraft soon and start advertising more heavily. I hope we don't end up with another Powdair.

[rog747]

I think the Fly Lolo saga will run and run as they say - We have all pontificated on here for months - The series was a great opportunity to see SOU expansion but
there is simply no other airline (UK/EU or other) out there that could operate for them without making a SOU base WITH an aircraft suitable in marketable size, and range to reach these places.
That leaves Flybe in the main as the only jet operator, however with Flybe's latest news it is all now very much watch this space.

Fly Lolo have not AFAIK entered into any tour operator contracts to share the seats on any of these quite nice upmarket niche destinations, which IMHO is a huge mistake to have not looked to do as so to share the risk.
SOU is highly marketable to the leisure sun market but I have seen B+++rer All in the way of adverts....

Even if BE is used with their EMB 195 jets looking at the current routes I would plan that most or all will be payload limited (like JSI was with just 97 to sell out of 118) or face a tech stop outbound - That makes a 3 sector day which cuts down Flight crew hours.

To have operated JSI with a full load of 118 would have meant a tech stop both ways (Thus now being a 4 sector day - dramatically cutting down Flight crew hours and likely infringing the SOU curfew on return as it was a PM slot)

[The Nutts Mutts]

In a tweet the SOU MD stated that 2,002,767 passengers used the airport in 2018, so they held on to 2mppa by the skin of their teeth!
It looks like it will be quite an achievement to manage the same in 2019 though, given the loss of KLM from March onwards and the continued question marks around Lolo.
He also tweeted, in reply to a question about growth in pax numbers "with a longer runway next year there will certainly be more choice for passengers."
I'd imagine we'll see the runway extension being built this winter and hopefully a return to growth in 2020.

[TCAS FAN]

Firstly a belated Happy New Year to all of our followers. Further to my posts # 1114 & 1126 after navigating my way through the layers of local government bureaucracy I was finally succesful in making contact with the the EBC Planning Department, who could not have been more helpful. After seeing the current Section 106 Agreement "Flying Controls", signed in 1992, I am able to confirm the following:

"Night Hours" are those outside 0600/2300 (local time) except Saturday/Sunday when they are 2300/0730.
A maximum of 10 flights per month, or no more than 100 in a calendar year, may operate during "night hours".
"There shall be no promotion of the Airport as a night flying airport" - presumably thereby not permiting flights to be scheduled outside these hours.
The airport shall not apply to extend the runway beyond 2000 metres.
The "operational area" (IMHO runway/taxiways) shall not extend outside the airport boundary, except for approach lighting and navaids.
A northern taxiway may be constructed to the runway extremity, albeit it must remain within the current airport boundary.

On a lighter note for the Airport NIMBY's, use of the airport by many aircraft, including B707, B747, VC 10, Concorde, Comet, Tristar is prohibited!

[RW20]

TCAS FAN
Another informative note,I presume any future operations by airlines after the runway extension will have to confirm with these controls!
If so will they be attractive enough to generate the likes of Easy with 320 ops?

[TCAS FAN]

TCAS FAN
Another informative note,I presume any future operations by airlines after the runway extension will have to confirm with these controls!

In the spirit of the Agreement, yes. However things can change.

Extension of the runway to 2000 metres is not physically possible within the current airport boundary, which is shown on an appendix to the Agreement. If the airport was to procure land to the north of the current boundary there may be a possibilty that the Agreement could be re-negotiated, albeit IMHO this would possibly have little chance of success on environmental grounds, ie taking noise closer to residential areas in Eastleigh.

[rog747]

TCAS FAN
Another informative note,I presume any future operations by airlines after the runway extension will have to confirm with these controls!
If so will they be attractive enough to generate the likes of Easy with 320 ops?

EASYJET A320 ops out of SOU with the existing runway have been around for 2 seasons already - GVA ski flights for instance.

So I assume you mean more Ops further afield with EZY A320's?

I am not privy if the GVA operates in and out of SOU with a full 186 seat load - someone here will know who works for the handling agents at SOU can possibly supply the answers.

Nor do I know as to what is the maximum range currently that an EZY 320 or 320NEO can operate to without a payload restriction - methinks even a full Palma or Barcelona would suffer limitations.
The NEO versions do offer better performance and I gather EZY has placed 2 at SEN and 1 at BRS.

Spanair used to come in many years ago with A320's - IAE engines - Palma Ibiza and Mahon?

Don't include any refer to recent Lapland flights - as they have NO bags and usually lots of children !

[The Nutts Mutts]

The EZY A320 and A319 have operated full out of SOU to Geneva.

[rog747]

The EZY A320 and A319 have operated full out of SOU to Geneva.

Thanks very much .

[Ejet1993]

EASYJET A320 ops out of SOU with the existing runway have been around for 2 seasons already - GVA ski flights for instance.

So I assume you mean more Ops further afield with EZY A320's?

I am not privy if the GVA operates in and out of SOU with a full 186 seat load - someone here will know who works for the handling agents at SOU can possibly supply the answers.

Nor do I know as to what is the maximum range currently that an EZY 320 or 320NEO can operate to without a payload restriction - methinks even a full Palma or Barcelona would suffer limitations.
The NEO versions do offer better performance and I gather EZY has placed 2 at SEN and 1 at BRS.

Spanair used to come in many years ago with A320's - IAE engines - Palma Ibiza and Mahon?

Don't include any refer to recent Lapland flights - as they have NO bags and usually lots of children !
I am a handling agent and yes it has gone out full before, the a320 has better performance then the a319 out of sou. We've dbc on the a319 before

[MARKEYD]

Latest news regarding the Fly Lolo " saga / soap / serial " is they are still on track to operate peak flights from Southampton which are 8 routes advertised and on a TV comercial from SOU , but there own Fly Lolo website shows another 3 routes on sale still

Regarding the aircraft operating they are back to either a FK 70 or a Boeing 737 300 , operating from within the EU , with an announcement due soon !!

Watch this space , again !!

[Sharklet_321]

Might this be the start of Jet2 services using 733 equipment ahead of the runway extension in 2020?

[MARKEYD]

Its highly unlikely to be Jet 2 leasing a 737 300 out in peak summer months , they would have already have had that aircraft fully committed for this summer , bearing in mind as well Fly lolo up until very recently were looking at an Austrian E 190 to use

Jet 2 have also said they willl not be opening up any new UK bases in 2020 , and i think everyone is agreed the B 738 is not suitable for SOU operations anyway as their B 733 will be gone by next summer

[rog747]

Yes I was watching Emmerdale FRI night on the London region ( Not Meridian) and saw the SOU airport TV ad in the break - Showed Fly Lolo and its destinations for new exciting places -
Tag line:
book local fly local!

https://youtu.be/zmTNvMlywXw

Hope they do sort themselves out and get an airline with the right plane to operate S19
A 737-300 or the 700 series is a good performer for SOU but has a large number of seats to fill (148)
Bath Travel Palmair used the 737-500 (now a dead species) 124 pax - very good fit

and also hope that the Flybe debacle does not end up on the rocks....

[Buster the Bear]

Flybe announced a small increase in services to the sun and to Amsterdam. today.

[The Nutts Mutts]

Palma 4 per week and Amsterdam 4 per day, 3 on weekends.
Flybe are extending their Geneva flights into mid-April, no news yet on whether easyJet will be doing the same. I see that BOH is also only bookable until the end of March, but SEN is bookable until the end of April.

[rog747]

I see the Bath Travel family is back again with 2 day trips from BOH to Venice at Easter using a TOM 737-800. Best of luck to SB.
Hays Travel are selling the tickets for Bath.
I just booked 3 seats as a family surprise - awesome !!

Last time with Bath/Palmair we did the Cairo and Luxor day trips - good old days on a Monarch 757 - Cracking days out.

This time a 738 of TOM - hot brekkie and hot dinner both ways included - Bath are selling 175 seats of out 189 on both flights - I guess the other seats are for Bath Family/staff, tour guides and Press etc...

SOU has the ability to do these day trips too...?? or not

[MARKEYD]

Not so easy from SOU as an aircraft has to position in to operate as no jet available, Flybe fully committed in the summer on there E jet , so therefore a cost implication to start with

I know a TUI B738 will have to position in to operate from BOH as there based aircraft is operational that day , but there is BOH based cabin crew to operate it

Also the same old story is , early departure and late arrival back to SOU and no guarantee of the night arrival being on time

Tranun , Santa holidays and Canterbury travel being the latest examples of this with day trips to Lapland being moved to BOH

[RW20]

MARKEYD
​​Reading your post is there any point in having a runway extension at SOU?,will any airline want to base 320s there with the time restrictions?
it doesn't look to good based on your facts!

[MARKEYD]

Oh I don’t doubt the extension will go ahead but it’s down to the individual airlines as to who comes in

I would imagine there will be a battle with the local council and residents about opening times and there lies the final problem , no new airline is going to base aircraft there until guaranteed later opening times are agreed .

An example at the moment is the Christmas charter flights that moved to BOH

[RW20]

The recent TCAS FAN explanation on the airport open hours drawn up with EBC when the airport was developed is very prohibited,unless this changes and it must be a big if! then I can't see any LCC operator being interested.

[TCAS FAN]

The recent TCAS FAN explanation on the airport open hours drawn up with EBC when the airport was developed is very prohibited,unless this changes and it must be a big if! then I can't see any LCC operator being interested.

While the current Flying Controls Agreement severely limits movements between 2300/0600 HR (0730 Sundays) they may be workable to return the odd late arrival/departure. The main threat to this is airport manning. As I have indicated in previous posts attendance of staff (airport operator's, handling agent and NATS) past about 2300 is invariably voluntary as staff are in to overtime, which they may not be forced to work. This is the weak link.

The airport used to provide their own handling (Skycare) and ATC, which could prove more economic and flexible to do long term over contracting it out..That's assuming that the relatively new owners are into a long term plan!

[SWBKCB]

I would imagine there will be a battle with the local council and residents about opening times and there lies the final problem , no new airline is going to base aircraft there until guaranteed later opening times are agreed .

It would be surprising if a runway extension and longer opening hours were acceptable to local residents and councils, if anything there might be a push to reduce hours to compensate for the (perceived) extra noise from more, bigger a/c.

It will be very good work indeed if the airport can convince all involved that the runway extension only works with longer hours, and that this can be achieved with minimal impact on locals, and with economic benefits for the wider region. A challenge! :ok:

[shamrock7seal]

Does everyone agree that both BOH and SOU are our regional airports for this region? I regularly use both depending upon what i need to do whether its a connection on from CDG/AMS/MAN or BOH for a low cost flight to Europe.

If we do agree, then surely it's better (for example) if Rigby were to buy SOU and sell it to housing development (for what I imagine would be a massive return on investment) and consolidate everything at one large and flexible airport with improved transport links and bus services across the south much in the way BRS current does it. They don't have a train line nor do they appear to need one.

I fear if something is not done in this regard then SOU will plateau and BOH will not become better for all of us in the south. We need an airport to rival that of BRS for both Southampton/south east and Bournemouth/south west.

I am eager to hear other opinions. Apparently many years ago it was suggested that both BOH and SOU be closed and a new airport in Totton be opened. I would think that is worse for the environment.

[stewyb]

:D

nice try for a Friday morning!

[TCAS FAN]

Does everyone agree that both BOH and SOU are our regional airports for this region? I regularly use both depending upon what i need to do whether its a connection on from CDG/AMS/MAN or BOH for a low cost flight to Europe.

If we do agree, then surely it's better (for example) if Rigby were to buy SOU and sell it to housing development (for what I imagine would be a massive return on investment) and consolidate everything at one large and flexible airport with improved transport links and bus services across the south much in the way BRS current does.

What are you puting on your cornflakes? Why would the existing owners sell up so the new buyers can make a killing selling off the land for non aviation development?

If SOU business did drop off to the extent that the owners can show that the existing site is not viable as an airport business, my understanding that is that it would be considered a brown field site and thereby many planning application requirements will not apply.

[RW20]

Didn't the airport plateau in about 2007?before the financial crisis. Development plans should have been made many years ago,if it survives then surely the proposed improvements are not enough to secure a long term future.

[Rivet Joint]

Does everyone agree that both BOH and SOU are our regional airports for this region? I regularly use both depending upon what i need to do whether its a connection on from CDG/AMS/MAN or BOH for a low cost flight to Europe.

If we do agree, then surely it's better (for example) if Rigby were to buy SOU and sell it to housing development (for what I imagine would be a massive return on investment) and consolidate everything at one large and flexible airport with improved transport links and bus services across the south much in the way BRS current does it. They don't have a train line nor do they appear to need one.

I fear if something is not done in this regard then SOU will plateau and BOH will not become better for all of us in the south. We need an airport to rival that of BRS for both Southampton/south east and Bournemouth/south west.

I am eager to hear other opinions. Apparently many years ago it was suggested that both BOH and SOU be closed and a new airport in Totton be opened. I would think that is worse for the environment.

The men in white coats will be along shortly. That or you are a troll. Here is a newsflash for you, no one wants to fly from BOH and history proves that. The only reason it remains open is because of all the accrued rent from the occupiers keeps it afloat. It’s basically an industrial estate that happens to have a runway attached. The minuscule commercial traffic it enjoys (3 departures on a good day?) is ancillary, and let’s not forget all the passengers are only paying a few quid (google the word yield). SOU actually requires an airport, it is one of the fastest growing cities in the country, the fact it is the cruise ship capital of Northern Europe for a start blows wee little BOH out of thewater. Easy Jet will be opening a base in 2020 and the airport will go from strength to strength. Flybe’s position is irrelevant, the routes they fly are all tried and tested and have been flown for years and years. There will be plenty of other operators rubbing their hands together at the prospect of swooping in. I think what sums up BOH is the first post you see on the BOH thread which says “a small increase, but an increase!” I wonder who posted that.....

[Rivet Joint]

The recent TCAS FAN explanation on the airport open hours drawn up with EBC when the airport was developed is very prohibited,unless this changes and it must be a big if! then I can't see any LCC operator being interested.

Is there any chance you can stop dragging this thread down to the histerical BOH thread level? It has become a magnate for trolls. You have been posting the same few messages for nearly a year now. The works proposed by the airport are happening, they have ran numerous roadshows with residents, the majority of which were in favour (although that’s irrelevant as the airport within reason can do whatever they want with their own land), and the MD has confirmed the planning is going in this year. In fact he has gone as far to say that SOU will have its longer runway in 2020. Have you noticed the 4 airbus sized stands that are being created at a significant cost? SOU has always been very cautious with any meaningful investment, in fact it has been a running joke on this thread. I think it is safe to say that they have done a deal with a low cost airline, and one that has an airbus fleet. Who could that be I wonder? SOU fits Easy Jet’s business model like a glove. It clearly just took a while for Easy Jet to max out their London airports. Southend is proof that once investment is made, airlines will start queuing up. People need to stop worrying about silly little details like opening hours, even Heathrow has a curfew!

[bad bear]

The minuscule commercial traffic it enjoys (3 departures on a good day?) your correct, I was surprised to see only 5 or 6 departures per day. I wonder how so much controlled airspace can be justified?

[TCAS FAN]

your correct, I was surprised to see only 5 or 6 departures per day. I wonder how so much controlled airspace can be justified?

Simply put "it cannot".

The current CTR/CTA configuration came into being late 80's/early 90's. At this time there used to be a set of criteria specified by the CAA which you had to meet in order to qualify for controlled airspace. This included a minimum number of Air Transport Movements and passengers carried. BOH never came anywhere near the minimums required. Consequently a massive fudge was dreamt up by the CAA, namely that BOH was "an important testing centre", the testing being Instrument Rating Tests carried out by the resident CAAFU Examiners. From memory this was an absolute maximum of about 3-4 per day, Monday to Friday!

[Knife-Edge]

I use both SOU and BOH and value both as local airports, both have their strengths and weaknesses and they only both exist due to the others weaknesses. The subject has been done to death.
The best outcome over the next couple of years would be EasyJet at SOU and Jet2 at BOH, playing to their respective strengths and maximising choice for locals.

If SOU had the space/runway both would be at SOU. If BOH had the road/rail connections both would be at BOH.

As it is both should and hopefully will survive and prosper.

[FrequentlyFlying]

100% with last post. Both have strengths and weaknessses and balance each other out. It’s good to have them BOTH.
Can the child that through all his/her toys out of the pram just get on with enjoying the plans for a positive future for his/her airport in this thread and not wind themselves up by the good news down the road recently.
the rest of us will continue to use both Sou and Boh and enjoy the fact we are lucky to have both options including a small FR base and potentially a EZ one too!

[RW20]

River Joint,
I have endured your liquid fueled replies for some time,it's about time you realised that SOU has been lacking in progressive management and development for some time.There is no certainly that any LCC operators will come to the airport even after any runway developments. Notams show there is no stand developments contrary to your post. Planning permission and any adjustments in airport opening times have yet to be discussed. BOU and SOU can exist perfectly in future operations,but especialy with the Brexit loming things might change that effect operations.
​​​​​​Certainly without runway extensions SOU future is in no way certain. BOU operations could serge upwards given better transport connections,they do have two essential asserts over SOU ,and that is a 7000ft runway,and plenty of space for stand development,oh and can stay open for sustainable operations.
So take stock of realistic possibilities for both airport's and take note of the silly little details that could have signigfcant reprocusions on the airport's development.

[Rivet Joint]

River Joint,
I have endured your liquid fueled replies for some time,it's about time you realised that SOU has been lacking in progressive management and development for some time.There is no certainly that any LCC operators will come to the airport even after any runway developments. Notams show there is no stand developments contrary to your post. Planning permission and any adjustments in airport opening times have yet to be discussed. BOU and SOU can exist perfectly in future operations,but especialy with the Brexit loming things might change that effect operations.
​​​​​​Certainly without runway extensions SOU future is in no way certain. BOU operations could serge upwards given better transport connections,they do have two essential asserts over SOU ,and that is a 7000ft runway,and plenty of space for stand development,oh and can stay open for sustainable operations.
So take stock of realistic possibilities for both airport's and take note of the silly little details that could have signigfcant reprocusions on the airport's development.

Are you suggesting that the management are putting in planning and spending the owners money without first doing proper due diligence? I am confused as to what you are you trying to achieve with these continuous rhetorical questions you seem to like to post? SOU is restricted, we all know that, let’s move the conversation past that and speculate on what could be a much more positive future for SOU. This thread never use to mention BOH, but their thread was full of jealous posters. It seems roles have reveresed even though SOU is very much still the dominant airport. BOH will never have better transport links. Investment in roads, railways etc is paid for by the tax payer, and I think it’s safe to stay BOH will find it hard to justify many many millions of public money being spent to benefit an airport that only has 3 flights a day. As mentioned in my previous post, Easy Jet have maxed out Gatwick and Stanstead and are having to wait for Heathrow to build it’s 3rd runway before it can move in there. The logical next step was Southend, and after that Southampton. It’s happening so let’s speculate on what sort of routes they may serve here and start being a bit more positive. I have been one of the biggest critics of the management (although the main perpetrator has left), but we are going to see the first bit of meaningful investment since the airport opened, and they have broken through the 2million barrier 2 years in a row now.

[RW20]

River Joint nothing is certain,nothing has been confirmed airline wise,the stands take little to reconfigure money wise,there is nothing in Notams to suggest that this is happening soon.
Get real!,no LCC including Easy are going to put up with constant diversions to BOU due to after 23-00 SOU closure.You need to pull your head out of the clouds and accept that Unless there is changes in the agreement for operational hours at SOU ,airlines are going to be hesitant at best in investing in future operations.Meanwhile BOU has begun under progressive management to increase,be it slowly in destinations.I'm sure as capacity reaches maximum at London's group airport's BOU will benefit.Southend is one of the London airport group and with significant investment has begun developing a good route network,but crucially is open ( with some night restrictions,) 24hr.
This point brings us back to SOU sticking point,that is operational hours,any variation on these will kick up a almighty storm from Southampton and Eastleigh residents.